Stop Pilot Skills going on the Shortage list. Your help required.

[URCleared]

A submission has been made for 'Aeroplane Pilot' to be added to the Immigration Skilled Shortage List. Here (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/D7C0BDDF-B759-47B3-A3A8-E1F3B390E41F/0/231111AeroplanePilot.pdf)

Nominated by Price Waterhouse Coopers on behalf of Air New Zealand to add to the ISSL for all regions.

For those of you who
-are a newly qualified pilot
-cannot get a job as a pilot here in NZ,
-or for other obvious reasons do not think Pilot skills should be added to the shortage list seeing as we produce anywhere in the region of 200 pilots per year, please use the following to make a submission.
Your deadline is close at 5.00pm on 26 July 2013.
Now extended to Aug 9.
STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING!

Submission Form (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/0B694487-899C-4935-89A1-6B21675AB7DD/0/ESIDSubmissionForm.doc)

Example Submission to help (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/97D75A48-3622-405A-8893-93A3B33825E4/0/ExampleofcompletedESIDSubmissionForm.pdf)

And yes this can even be of benefit to Australian Pilots also, you may be across the ditch, but this is your job market as well!

For those short on time, emails can be made to GAA who are making a submission on behalf of, see post from 'D check'

[Mstr Caution]

QF mainline recently announced there was no need for redundancies in the current flying plan thru till 2016.

200 or so on leave of absence & a previously declared surplus of 180.

However with the forecasted retirement of hulls, surely there must be an impending surplus.

[URCleared]

i) Training time required
At least two years’ training time usually required to get a Commercial Pilot License.4 This includes at least 200 hours flying time and meeting other requirements (e.g. age and holding a New Zealand Private Pilot Licence).

Two years to do that??!!!!! :=

[deadcut]

What a load of crap!

The only reason I had to go to Australia is because I could not get entry level work in NZ!

Because of silly rules you need 150 hours command to get a meatbombing job flying a clapped out 206. That's supposed to be an entry level job!

[neville_nobody]

Is this so AirNz can get DE pilots from the likes of EK without having to raid their own regionals.

[seneca208]

Absolutely Appalling considering the number of unemployment pilots in the country. Time to start spreading the word I think..

[Ka6crpe]

My son is one of those graduates from Ardmore who fled to Australia because he couldn't get work here in NZ.

The son of a very good friend trained at SIT and had to go to to FIJI for work. He is now meatbombing back here in NZ.

I know of many others who have trained here in NZ but have to go overseas for work. So no shortage of pilots here, just a very difficult gap to find the work that enables them to bridge that gap from CPL to theminimum that Air NZ require.

[DeltaT]

Have you ever talked to one of the much older Air NZ pilots?...
"In the good 'ol days" Air NZ used to say yes to the pilots before they even had their CPL, and told them to hurry up and finish their training.

This is to replace all the Link Pilots getting Jet Jobs
...or slot an overseas pilot in a Jet job in place of a Link Pilot.

a shortage of Pilots who can fly IFR and make it through the Sim check
Cadet pilots here we come

[DeltaT]

then they're going to need to look elsewhere
yeah bugger using our simulators to polish them up lets get some pilots from overseas instead :}:E

[big buddah]

Interesting? all round.

This is more a fishing tool by a middle manager to try and convince another middle manager in a government dept to open up the borders to let them hire foreign pilots. This to merely undercut Alpa and the Feds out of the next round of bargaining?

It has nothing to do with a pilot shortage actual or perceived?

You know this by reading their submission stating to the government that there is only 8 qualified pilots to meet Air NZ requirements?
What a load of crap, if this is true Air NZ should open their files and prove it to everyone.

Price Waterhouse Coopers is one of the top accounting and auditing firms around and this is what they come up with, complete lies??? 8 pilots, research a little?

I know handful's of pilots who are well qualified and aren't getting interviews. It's not that Air Nz is turning them down, they're not even getting phone calls????

So how many pilots have the right to live and work in NZ, that includes Australia? Plenty

[Gate_15L]

In assessing the merit of submissions, the Ministry will consult with employers, trade unions and other employee and industry bodies, as well as relevant government agencies such as the Ministry of Social Development and the New Zealand Qualifications Authority.

Anyone know if NZALPA are putting in a submission? It's likely to add much more weight than submissions from individuals...

[arismount]

Distressing to see the U.S.-style full-out assault on labor and labor power reaches even to the antipodes...

[Aerozepplin]

Hahahhaaha! 8 pilots in New Zealand who meet Link requirements? I can think of 8 off the top of my head, so I'm honoured to know them all.

Changing immigration requirements could have a long term effect on the domestic market, all to fix a short term problem. I'm sure it won't be too long until the Links fill up and they can go back to rejecting pilots for only having two space shuttle launches. "We really like our recruits to have commanded an Apollo mission before we look at hiring them."

[Magpie75]

Im an ex RAAF pilot with over 2000 fast jet hours. It took over two years to get an airline job in Australia. None of the airlines have a shortage of pilots, they just want to employ as cheaply as possible regardless of skills. Fact.

[empire4]

This is purely a move by Airlines to keep lower wages. Happens in Australia in most industries.

Aircraft maintenance engineer has been on the list in OZ for 10+ years. Try getting a job any where now as an AME......there is none.

[lilflyboy262...2]

I met the experience requirements 5 times over, but didn't have UE or my ATPLs written so was told I had to write them first.
Why? Why should foreign pilots be hired over someone who is more than capable of doing the job.
Before you think I am bitter and twisted over this, I have now passed the ATPL and have a position with Air NZ.

I know that there is plenty of guys out there that are in my position.

[Luke SkyToddler]

What a load of nonsense, even if there were only 8 experienced GA pilots remaining in the whole country ( which I don't believe for a second ) then that is still no excuse for playing the "immigration" card. The GA scene in the UK / western Europe has been practically dead for decades now, there's really no way for up and comers to get multi piston or light turbo time, but the system still works. If the poms can successfully put hundreds of 250 hour guys a year into the RHS of buses and boeings, then poor old ANZ might have to just put a few of them into the B1900.

Alternatively if they really must have "experienced" pilots then they can bloody well hire some DEFO's and DEC's from the ranks of the many hundreds of us now flying jets overseas, who had to go overseas in the last couple decades due to the zero progression in NZ.

I'm sure even if the cv pile is a bit thin at the moment it's only a temporary hiccup and normal service will soon be resumed, where they are able to set their minimums of only considering space shuttle commanders with the Victoria Cross for the privilege of spending a decade in the 777 jumpseat :\

[bigbrother]

Hmmm its a little hard to follow at first, and I think if the example was more closely related to pilots, rather than the Industry trying to lower the conditions of service, more might complete the thing and return it.

Having said that Ive done mine. Any further comments on how to fill it in prior to hitting the send button?

[framer]

If you meet these requirements:
A NZCAA Commercial Pilots Licence
• Multi Engine Instrument Rating
• A basic gas turbine endorsement
• 500 hours (part 121.557 of the Civil Aviation Act) total flying hours including:
- 100 in Air Operations
- 25 hours of night flying
and are a kiwi who would happily take a job with Air NZ then make a submission stating that fact. My guess is a lot more than 8 of you will do this and the Ministry will be forced to conclude that Price Waterhouse Cooper & Air NZ are full of it and simply trying to keep wages down.
The Ministry sates
A NZCAA Commercial Pilots Licence
• Multi Engine Instrument Rating
• A basic gas turbine endorsement
• 500 hours (part 121.557 of the Civil Aviation Act) total flying hours including:
- 100 in Air Operations
- 25 hours of night flying





Five indicators of shortage are used: estimated job seekers; Jobs Online index (measure of vacancies); visa approvals; employment growth; and the likelihood of the shortage being long term.
Your submission will effect the " estimated job seekers" indicator and will be difficult to ignore.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Also somebody should probably point out to the immigration guys that, wasn't it just a couple years ago that the guvmint drastically cut access to student loans for pilot training, once they realized the blindingly obvious fact that only a very small percentage of graduates ended up in paid employment as pilots? How does this same government now reconcile that position, with any kind of a proposal to put pilots on the skills shortage list?

Maybe the immigration guys should talk to the student loan guys, and get their point of view on the situation, as opposed to taking Price Waterhouse' word for it.

Is there any way to make online submissions to this thing, I'm up in Vietnam and I don't think a letter would get there before the deadline

[URCleared]

Pretty sure the email address information is provided in the form.
If it says written only then scan the letter and email that.

[Fruet Mich]

URCleared,

Have you posted this on the General Aviation forum? These are the guys that need to submit their form.

[URCleared]

You can't do dual running threads. Message a moderator and see if a sticky can go up there perhaps?

[lilflyboy262...2]

Thank you for that blinding insight rmcdonal.
Remind me why a foriegn pilot with 500hrs and an arts degree should get employed over citizens with 3000hrs but no degree?
Had I had a useless degree I wouldn't have to write my atpls.

[Mail-man]

Doesn't our (aus) job market already have 457 visa's along with kiwi pilots?

[URCleared]

Yes it does.
Australia only grants a very small amount of 457 Visa for Pilots, and does not have Pilot Skills on its ISSL either.
By the look of the submission NZ has also already granted a small amount of Visas on the basis of Pilot Skills too; can't fathom why!
The difference is, by adding Pilot Skills to the shortage list it makes it that much -easier- for Immigration to grant the Visas.

[Mstr Caution]

I just read a Ben Sandilands article on how the Australian ATSB has just completed a report stating that an experienced pilot is no more safe than a less experienced pilot.

To extrapolate that further, how could there be a skills shortage when experience doesn't produce a "safer" pilot?

Tell the likes of Air NZ to employ local qualified pilots or ramp up their cadet program.

Problem is airline bean counters want pilots to pay their own way thru pilot training. If the foreign pilot option is knocked on the head, it may force airlines to provide or subsidise cadet pilot training for local aspiring pilots like they use to.

MC.

[flyboy_nz]

Im an ex RAAF pilot with over 2000 fast jet hours. It took over two years to get an airline job in Australia. None of the airlines have a shortage of pilots, they just want to employ as cheaply as possible regardless of skills. Fact.

Wow! Really sad to hear.

Thank you for that blinding insight rmcdonal.
Remind me why a foriegn pilot with 500hrs and an arts degree should get employed over citizens with 3000hrs but no degree?
Had I had a useless degree I wouldn't have to write my atpls.

2600 hrs TT, 1000 hrs PIC & RPT including mountain and short strip experience in SE turbine in Indonesia and Papua. Still waiting for Air NZ... Oh wait, because I don't have ATPLs, my experience is not good enough.

Don't you worry, me and my real and imaginary friends are all submitting that form.

[URCleared]

Lets be honest, if Air NZ opened up recruitment to cut off Link Pilots from the Jets, then they'd just create another problem. They'll lose Pilots to overseas carriers just as quickly as they import them.

So its to take on pilots with 500hrs?

There are a lot of pissed of pilots out there with Air NZ, not only those that had to go overseas because of the Supply/Demand issue at the time and the Space Shuttle requirements, or those that were discriminated against when they returned because of the overseas experience they had (go figure on that one), but also those with experience out there right now not even being called up (which would fix your described upgradable FO issue) . Nevermind the actual recruitment process that is in place. - Does flipping a piece of paper and shouting at Interviewees really get you the best pilots up front? := If ANZ is so utterly desperate that you want Pilot Skills on the ISSL surely before that the first thing to do is to cut out some of this Psychological screening garbage out of the interview process. It still doesn't impinge on your Hours and other requirements, pick up the ruddy phone and start calling pilots with applications meeting the experience level, instead of picking and choosing the shiney apples.
Hey it's your train set play it as you see fit, however the job market is also ours! :cool:

There's a few Career Link drivers sure, but most of today's Pilots want a Jet Job. Preferably with a Koru on the tail, and are willing to wait for it, but if that door gets closed to them....

Why is there any DESO hiring taking place at all if you have so many Link Pilots waiting? Sure you can't bleed the experience level from the Links, but seems to me you are setting yourselves up for just the very thing you say you are trying to avoid (which happened not too long ago if I recall). All at the price of the antiquated Seniority System. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the Link and Jet seniority systems are mixed yet?

while guys who have been around nearly 2 years still haven't finished their subjects

Didn't there used to be a termination clause for this situation with a 2yr limit?
Or was that just folklore

[gearupmaxpower]

Submissions can be made by email. For details, go to:

Review of the Essential Skills in Demand Lists (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/general/generalinformation/review.htm)

Personally, I think this is important enough to make a submission on - especially as it is my belief that there are many New Zealanders overseas that would gladly return to NZ if able. It is also my firm belief that their figures regarding the number of available pilots are pure fantasy.

Having said that, any submissions should be made in an unemotional and factual way. Any submissions made up of emotional, scaremongering and rambling type contents will be disregarded and only strengthen the case for the occupation to be added to the list.

Even just a submission along the lines of 'I am a New Zealand pilot overseas who would gladly return to NZ if the opportunity arises' is better than nothing(if you feel that way, of course). It builds up the numbers of people who DO feel that way rather than just saying that you think the are many pilots who you believe would return to NZ. Clear as mud?

As for minimum qualifications, UE and ATPL's have been around for a while and, quite frankly, are a fair minimum.

[URCleared]

So its to take on pilots with 500hrs?
Into the Links yes.

Ahaa, tell us more about the idea of bringing in 500hrs pilots from overseas all the while the training industry in NZ pumps out another 200 pilots per year.

As for guys not getting called, there's a lot more to it than just Hours, always has been, always will be. Hours just get your CV looked at... if all that counted was experience, we wouldn't have interviews. Sometimes if you scratch the surface, you realize that your "experienced mate" dropped out of School, failed multiple CPL/IR exams, took 3 attempts at their CPL and has a few incidents on file. None of that instills confidence in an Airline. Not meaning to offend, just a reality of the industry how our past failings can come back to haunt us.

Then surely these 'other concerns' ARE part of why you have an interview to address this, instead of thinking up the worst case and believing it without even talking to the person. I don't see any space in the online form that specifically asks for any extraneous life situations to be explained that could contribute to some of these things happening. Air NZ is clearly not so desperate as they make out.
Clearly an avenue here to interview more pilots.
Point noted not to declare incidents. Tell me, what happens to the pilots involved in Incidents on the job within Air NZ, do they keep their job?


As for the Recruit to group process, I do hear it's rather over the top, but from my understanding a lot of it is fluff. They seem to be able to look past "poor results" in most things other than the Sim and Interview. Don't quote me on that, just what I've been told.

Perhaps the poor result in the sim and interview is because the Pilot can't fathom the stupidity and unprofessional aspects of the selection days. It stinks of ideas from people trying to justify their job in HR.
It's as much us looking at you as you looking at us.
Another avenue to widen the filter to say yes to more pilots.

[Jagdfalke]

800 hours TT
500 PIC
BGT, MEIR, etc.

I also have an undergraduate degree.


I meet/exceed the entry requirements, and like every other pilot and his dog, I have applied for Air NZ link and have yet to even hear back. So i'm currently residing in Aus - the weather here is nice. I think i'll stay.

I also personally know 3 other (former) pilots who meet those requirements but have since moved onto other things. I guess not everybody can wait around forever. The smart ones leave and move onto bigger and better things - the rest of us become pilots - eventually.

[Ollie Onion]

I love it, I have JAA ATPL / NZ ATPL / CASA ATPL with 9000 tt, 1500 DC8, 7000 A320, 5000 PIC etc etc, LLb (hons) and first applied to Air NZ back in 2003 trying to get back to NZ. At one stage was contacted for an interview which was then postponed due to one of the many stops in recruitment. Haven't heard from them again now for about 5 years, so I stayed overseas. I would be absolutely shocked if Air NZ couldn't hustle up enough pilots from GA, the Links or any of the numerous expats who want to come home. :ugh:

[gearupmaxpower]

Which is why we need as many pilots as possible, especially overseas based pilots who have a wish to return to NZ, to make at least a minimal submission to that effect. Immigration need to be flooded with emails so they get an idea of how many pilots would like the opportunity to repatriate.

Even just submitting an email putting forward a wish to return to NZ is better than sitting on your backside doing nothing. A quick summary of your experience would be good. That will show just how much experience is not only out there, but being blatantly and conveniently ignored by the airlines in NZ, not to mention in Immigration NZ's research.

It is my belief this is one job you can NEVER be overqualified for. Don't get attitude mixed up with experience - they are two very different beasts when it comes to getting a job.

Again, I urge all of you to make a submission. If our profession goes on to the list, it will be very difficult and a lengthy process to get it off. Ten minutes of your time can't be that difficult.

Also remember the TTRMA already allows overseas based pilots to join NZ airlines.

[Luke SkyToddler]

On a partially related note I see in this week's Flight International that Air NZ is running a big recruitment advert for sim instructors, no mention is made of requiring the right to live & work in NZ. I wonder if they've already got a "skills shortage" exemption for that one? I would have thought there'd be plenty of age 65 or lost-their-medical guys who'd be up for that?

[D check]

The GAA (General Aviation Advocacy Group of New Zealand) has taken an interest in this submission to add to the perceived skills shortage list for NZ.

For those that are interested in making a submission but don't know how or are unsure of what to do the below message from GAA will assist you in being heard.

Please contact Des directly on the email address provided if you wish to join the submission.



GAA is prepared to help those who don’t feel sufficiently confident, to put in their own individual submission. We will put in a submission and attach your names as co-submitters.



If you wish us to do this, you need to email Des Lines at [email protected] ([email protected])and request that your name be added as a co-submitter. It would be helpful if your email also contains your personal views and experiences in trying to get a flying job within NZ and if you have had to go offshore to find employment.



An indication of whether you currently meet the criteria and the Air NZ Group requirements, or if you are currently working to gain them, would also be helpful information. These comments will be attached as an Appendix to the submission.

[kiwiCj6]

D Check, You may find that candidates in the recruit to group system awaiting an interview would rather remain anonymous.


Yes what is happening is wrong and absurd.
I personally know more than 8 people that far exceed Air NZ Minimums and No calls or interviews.

[flyboy_nz]

Windnz, it's a lot easier than done to say to someone 'go get your ATPLs done asap'.

Some of us are based overseas, myself in Indonesia and Papua. Time for me is the biggest factor. Getting three weeks off at a time can be a hassle, especially as I am planning to take time off for family matters. The other factor is being the cost of multiple trips back home while saving up for a type-rating at the same time.

I can not put all eggs in one basket and use up my annual leave and spend my savings on ATPLs just to QUALIFY for an interview with Air NZ which might not happen. Especially, when around the corner I can spend the same money and my leave on a type-rating on a jet and get a jet job right away without any ATPLs.

It might not be fair, it might seem unjust, but plenty of Pilots are getting called and accepted.

Good for them. That's the entire point of this thread, stop this profession from going on the shortage list when there's plenty of us meeting the requirements for the job but still waiting for an interview.

[URCleared]

A big thank you to General Aviation Advocacy Group of New Zealand for coming on board and your offer, I think that will make it a lot easier for many. I encourage Pilots to take advantage of this.


flyboy_nz makes a good point.
It makes me think of another idea, how many more CPLs from the past that gave up due to the job situation would come out of the woodwork and do an interview if they could defer getting their qualifications current until after interview and a 'yes'? This would remove any barriers to applying for them, it's alot cheaper to get some time in a aeroclub sim and up to speed for the Interview sim ride than the whole IR renewal. The time to actually starting the Type Rating seems to be several months post interview anyway, so no problems there.
Another avenue for more pilots.

Perhaps an IT qualified Pilot person would like to offer their services and sort out the Database for Air NZ for them.
Suggested improvements would be a change in status for when the application has at least been looked at, and an email reply (even if its a template one), if your application is rejected. -So at least we know!

[intake]

People, if ANZ has a requirement for ATPL subjects/ Lic as part of their list of qualifications and you don't have them it means you don't qualify. Quite simple really, go get your subjects/ licence. "Can't get time off to do the exams" or "I'll get them once you give me a start" etc is just BS.
PS: I don't think any country needs to put pilots on the " skills shortage" list.
Good luck to those applying

[Luke SkyToddler]

So what you're saying Jimmy is that if someone who went and got a CPL during the "normal" times in NZ, when jobs are as rare as unicorn sh!t, (which has pretty much been the default situation for the last couple of decades at least), and that person eventually couldn't afford to bang their head against the brick wall any longer and had to go back to work in some non piloting capacity ...

... that none of those guys deserve at least to be given a chance at an interview / assessment, that they now deserve to be written off because their "motivation isn't in the right place", and on that basis Air NZ has the right to import a bunch of foreign pilots instead?

Pretty harsh bro :\

[D check]

" D Check, You may find that candidates in the recruit to group system awaiting an interview would rather remain anonymous."


I agree totally. But it just goes to show that no matter what you do, unless you are safely 'in the fold' there is no way to take any action to protect your patch for fear of repercussions further down the track.

I too know a number of people who meet the Air NZ minimums. Getting a call for an interview seems to be luck of the draw. You can only update or ring HR so much before you become a nuisance.....

[URCleared]

I don't think they're that desperate.

Desperate enough to make a submission to put it on the Skills Shortage list.
...or is it really about helping to boost the training industry here, it's the dirty little secret that doesn't get talked about. Perhaps ; "o look, pilot skills are on the shortage list, spend your Thousands of dollars to get qualified and get a job"
It's a billion dollar industry remember.
Just like that little gem that comes up "not many instructors around, must be a pilot shortage" or "all the upcoming retiring pilots...".
Stay in the industry long enough you will here it time and again.
For those of you more computer literate these days do a Google Search and you can find the above phrases repeating in news articles from the distant past.


candidates in the recruit to group system awaiting an interview would rather remain anonymous.

Submissions made to the Government dept concerned will not be divulged by them. I am sure GAA are happy not to spread details either.

[angrypickle]

Here's the really kicker for me. National data on people available to work or train suggests that there are 8 suitable jobseekers available to
fill vacancies within this occupation. (Based on the
Ministry of Social Development data as at 26 Apr 2013).

"Ministry of social Development." So basically there are 8 unemployed pilots on the benefit who meet their requirements, which is probably true. This is essentially ANZ entire argument and they have to resort to supplying misleading information. Problem is Mr John Doe will look at this number and say "oooh woow look! There is a shortage of pilots! Better allow ANZ to recruit some from overseas!"

But heres an idea..Why don't they supply the numbers from their own recruitment list? Probably because it will show that there are 100's of pilots who meet their requirements that HR hasn't even called or replied to. Part 125 requirements for VFR are 500 TT and 25 night, for IFR are 1200 IFR and 50 night. So basically every single pilot who flies for a 125 operator (EG Sounds air, air to there, Great barrier airlines, vincient aviation, air milford, Air freight nz, Air chathams, etc, etc, etc) and nearly all 135 pilots who have worked for a year or more will meet the "ANZSCO skill level classification requirements." Yet ANZ states there's only 8 pilots? But the real kicker to this entire situation is that ANZ probably hasn't even interviewed those 8 pilots!

This would make a pretty good Tui billboard sign.. "There's only 8 pilots in the entire country that meet Air New Zealands requirements.. Tui yeah right."

[kiwiCj6]

It seems they are claiming a shortage of Jet candidates,
many in my boat wont meet that part 121 requirement.

121.557 The rule states:
(d) A pilot may not commence an introduction segment of the training
programme under paragraph (a) unless—
(1) the pilot—
(i) has acquired at least 500 hours of flight time experience
as pilot, including at least 100 hours of flight time in air
operations; or
(ii) has acquired at least 500 hours of flight time experience
as a pilot on a multi-engine aeroplane type; and
(2) the pilot—
(i) holds a current instrument rating; and
(ii) has acquired at least 40 hours of instrument time of
which at least 10 hours were completed under the
supervision of an appropriately qualified flight
instructor; and
(3) the pilot has acquired at least 25 hours of night flight time
experience for air operations at night.

121.3 Definitions
In this Part—
Air operation means an air transport operation or a commercial transport
operation using an aeroplane having a seating configuration of more
than 30 seats, excluding any required crew member seat, or a payload
capacity of more than 3410 kg:

This seating configuration and payload requirement is the issue I think.
This would exclude a lot of caravan drivers, and most instructors at flight schools.

I initailly thought they were talking about link by that salary range.
Average annual base salary:1 $84,900
Salary range: $47,600 to $100,000
Im sure the jet drivers average a lot more than that.

There is definitely a mistake in that submission. or am i on the wrong path?

[lilflyboy262...2]

@ Intake.

The ATPLs are not a must. You can have the ATPLs waived by meeting UE requirements or having a degree in anything.

BUT they are then telling guys that they then need their ATPLs even though they meet the UE or degree side of the requirements.

There is no mention of the UE/Degree/ATPL requirements for the foreign nationals either. Should they not have to come with an ATPL already? Converting their ICAO CPL + ATPL theory is only going to give them a CPL. Which they will then have to write their ATPL again anyway.

Oh, and they are already interviewing foreign guys with appropriate experience on type anyway.

[URCleared]

@ kiwiCj6
Has to be more to it otherwise Instructors etc wouldn't be getting FO on the Dash 8/ATR which are Part 121/more than 30seats.

If memory serves me correct I think the 'air operations' definition, even though defined at the start of the Part, is not for the context referenced in the pilot experience. Give CAA a call.

[inxs]

Now you know how us Aussies feel and we empathise with the Kiwis on this crazy unacceptable situation. Repatriation and local talent loyalty means bugger-all to the suits managing these airlines. Australia are importing overseas pilots as DEC with REX and SkyWest (aka Virgin) therefore displacing our very own pilots. Cause of this, the gap between GA and airlines is getting bigger by the moment, unless you're a cadet. Where's the AFAP in all this, I guess they got their wings clipped in '89. :(

[inxs]

Just tuned into the NZ GAA website (that was mentioned before on this thread) - I'm impressed, a very good site. Australia should do likewise.:ok:

[Split Flap]

As for the topic at hand, I think there's a bit of paranoia in this thread. I can't see the flood gates being opened to any man and his dog from the 3rd world with a Pilots license, nor can I see this "driving down wages". We don't work for Qantas/Jetstar....


In my opinion the "paranoia" is well justified. Just ask any Air NZ aircraft engineer what has happened to their terms and conditions over the last 5-6 years since Aircraft engineer was added to the list, and they will happily entertain you with a few stories.

It is important for anyone that wishes to preserve T&C's in this country to make a submission. For those with access to the ALPA website, they currently are running a survey identical to GAA, it takes less than 2 minutes to complete and I would encorage all those who haven't yet to do so. It closes tonight, the time for action is today.

Supply and demand folks.

Air NZ is taking the mickey on this matter and hopefully the department of labour will see right through it. :=

[flyboy_nz]

As for the topic at hand, I think there's a bit of paranoia in this thread. I can't see the flood gates being opened to any man and his dog from the 3rd world with a Pilots license, nor can I see this "driving down wages". We don't work for Qantas/Jetstar....

You are right that the flood gates won't open but they will have quite a few applications! Let's see how quickly the HR responds to those.

It would be interesting to see what sort of T&Cs those overseas applicants would be given.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Here's the link to the GAA page concerned - great work there chaps! It would certainly be worthwhile to share it on F a c e b o o k and the various other social networks for the benefit of non ppruners. Apparently the deadline for submissions has been extended to August 9th?

Attention all NZ CPL holders - this concerns YOU (http://www.caa.gen.nz/?p=3133)

Also here's the links to the Air NZ job adverts referred to

Free Pilot Jobs - Pilot jobs First Officer New Zealand Pilot Hiring (http://www.pilothiring.com/pilot-jobs/First-Officer-3118.html)
Free Pilot Jobs - Airline job search First Officer Boeing B747, Boeing B767, Boeing B777 Auckland, New Zealand Pilot Hiring (http://www.pilothiring.com/pilot-jobs/Second-Officer-6031.html)

It really doesn't make a lot of sense to me on a lot of levels though, there clearly ISN'T a pilot shortage, and there's obviously benefits to the employer in terms of loyalty and public perception, by employing kiwis to the *national airline*, so why are they doing this? Is it just so they can have an extra gun to point at ALPA's head when the next round of pay negotiations come round?

[gearupmaxpower]

On the GAA website, someone mentions the deadline being extended into August. Can someone confirm this?

Thanks.

[URCleared]

Yes. Extended to Aug 9.

Item made the 6pm News. Article (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/air-nz-under-fire-over-bid-foreign-pilots-5519012) Video (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/air-nz-wants-hire-foreign-pilots-video-5519191)

AIA and David Morgan Chief Pilot. Reply from Air NZ to GAA (http://www.caa.gen.nz/?p=3203)

[chunkylover53]

nice copy and paste work on the press release capt morgan.....

as for Irene king..... tighten up that scarf around your neck sexy lady... what you getting paid from air nz for that intelligent response???

[WOOLLY]

ANZ have brought this on themselves. Get rid of HR.

I know great guys and gals you haven't got a look in because of their lack of non aviation qualification requirements or their HR profiling during an interview.

These been great pilots, great people and with descent time.

Why not give more people a go and weed them out later if necessary. 'Fools you'

[Mr & Mrs Rocketboots]

Thanks for the confirmation that the deadline has been extended.

Will be making a submission - personally have 9000 hours turbo-prop PIC and due to work changes have put my application into Air NZ. Aside from the automatic acknowlegement, nothing heard since.

However, could this be because I don't have UE? Despite 25 years experience and an ATPL? :ugh: :rolleyes:

[Bob Hoover]

Well good on Dave Morgan what an @sshole. Good to see Dave looking after kiwi pilots who have put up with crap money in GA and the regionals to then be shafted by big dog when the chance of a jet job comes along. How about looking after your pilots Dave and less drinking p!ss in Paris. As for Luxon, looks like he to is showing his true colours, trust them not.

People can make all the submissions they like, it will make no difference. Have a couple of rolling stop work meetings and bring the network to a holt and send a clear message on this subject, only then will you have the attention of Dave, Chris and John Key.

Bob
Ps: who do I see for my 777 command ?

[WOOLLY]

Mr Rocket boots, a great example. A colleague applied, 4500 TT, 3000 single pilot. Told to go away and get U.E. or today's equivalent to be considered. He is 36 years old.:mad:

[Tui12]

I have just left 8 years in Finance in Sydney and London to come back to NZ and complete a PPL, CPL, MECIR and ATPLs full time in order to have a shot at the dream of one day flying in the Links. I cant believe how highly qualified some people are on here and not getting anywhere in NZ. Yet ANZ comes out with this horrible intention. What am I doing. :(

[gulfairs]

Capt B@lls to the wall Morgan, is again spouting the proverbial bulls sh!t.
He is in an un touchable position so can make whatever policy he likes.
I can remember the days when he flew Cessna 172 to and from NZKE, and he told me that the pilots of big airplanes used two hands on the wheel when on approach.He knew I was a DC10 driver at the time but he was like the Dali pilot.
" You thinka I know F@## nothing ,but I know f@## all."

[Semi Rigid]

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation Tui12.
That specimen Irene King being interviewed on the idiot box last night - absolute gobbledy gook - her tongue was flapping but no words were coming out.

[framer]

If you look at this long term ( say over 30 years) it's got the potential to completely stuff the career for Kiwi's. once it is on the list it will effect pay rates and progression, because of that less people will fork out the 80k or so to become qualified and it will stay on the list due to an actual shortage of Kiwi pilots eventually.
That's great for Air NZ, bad for New Zealanders.Alpa and GAA are doing the right thing by objecting strongly IMO.

[Emma Ritz]

That Irene King is a cynical nasty piece of work isn't she ... a government declared "pilot shortage" is marketing gold for the CPL sausage factory schools she represents, you can't buy that publicity. She of all people should know the truth about the state of aviation in NZ.

Me, 9000 total, 5000 airbus, I'd be home from the sandpit faster than a rat up a drainpipe if Air NZ had anything better to offer than the prospect of 10 years in the jumpseat / 15 years in the RHS.

Seriously, and I know that hell will freeze over before it happens, but if they are actually worried about a pilot shortage and don't want to pillage the links, why the hell don't they hire GA guys straight to the SO position and steal a bunch of Virgin / Jetstar FO's plus some overseas expats for the RHS?

How long must the ALPA guys worship blindly at the altar of "seniority" when the management is pulling dirty tricks like this one, which ultimately undermines the entire industry not just Air NZ?

And another thing IF this goes ahead it won't just be Air NZ who are affected, you can bet your bottom dollar that jetstar / pac bro / jetconnect will be snowed under with cv's from every pilot in the third world overnight :mad:

[schlong hauler]

Apparently some ANZ execs have been seen around SYD looking at starting up an Aussie based ANZ subsidiary called KIWICONNECT. It will use Aussie pilots which are falling over themselves to get a jet job after years in the regionals. There is even talk of using cadets. The aircraft will be painted in ANZ livery and crew will wear the ANZ uniform. The operation will be controlled from Auckland using carrier pigeons and SSB HF. A source close to the HR consultants were seen talking with a pilot recruitment agency called Rushworth Newmeadow about possible industrial leverage that could be gained by wedging the pilot community in New Zealand.
Seriously dont let the HR consultants con the public like they did here otherwise it will be yet another layer of angst for no real gain except some ******'s KPIs.

[URCleared]

Please people no personal attacks on named individuals.
I understand the sentiment but please channel that anger into a submission to the Government Department.
Keep the examples coming in of what you know, not been called etc etc.
I didn't think this would gain as much ground as it has, nevermind the TV news.
The way things are going if Pilot Skills still makes it to the Shortage List then all hell is going to break loose.

[URCleared]

NZ Herald Newspaper (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10903573) -Includes a voting poll!

Dominion Post Newspaper (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/8960664/Skills-shortage-claim-doesn-t-fly-say-pilots)

[ZKSUJ]

There is no pilot skill shortage, Govt says - National News | TVNZ (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/there-no-pilot-skill-shortage-govt-says-5519443)

For what it's worth the government does not buy into the shortage thing as a result of their prelim findings. Hope it sticks

[URCleared]

Yes SUJ lets hope it sticks. Let's hope the 'preliminary' statement is not meant to just pacify the masses.
The decision on the Skills Shortage List is made in December.


Tonights TV News Item (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/student-loan-cuts-cause-pilot-shortage-aviation-association-5520043)

The AIA is becoming a hindrance to the pilot profession.
Their complete and utter focus is on the cash cow of the student loans. STUDENT LOANS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!!
The Government capped it for pilots for the simple reason Pilots were not getting jobs and then defaulting on large loans, just as Steven Joyce has said.
Please do not get on this bandwagon people. :=

[URCleared]

Not sure how they can say that there are no kiwi's meeting their requirements?
Because they suffer the same problem as a lot of large companies.
The problem is never them as far as they are concerned.
Air NZ needs to look inward at how they recruit, not outward.

[framer]

NZALPA should publicly call on Air Nz to release the numbers of qualified pilots who they have not invited to an interview that have applied over the last three years while the media attention is still hot.

[flyboy_nz]

Sorry Framer, but I think we are gonna see some bogus numbers with that. IMO, if someone did a poll instead and with good evidence and supplied it to the media, that would give a more realistic figures.

[URCleared]

Contact Des at GAA, they are indeed doing such a survey.
See previous posts.

[waterbottle]

captsf - your experience level is exactly what they are looking for. In fact ANZ has already mostly taken your experience level out of the Links and have moved on to line captains.

Do the survey but also make a submission. This is directly impacting pilots such as yourself.

[framer]

On second thought Flyboy, I agree, the numbers would be unreliable.

[BO0M]

Did 10 years in Air NZ regional on two different types and with well over 8000 hours got the you need to go do UE or a Uni paper and we may interview you. Never mind the fact I had 10 years in the company with no failed exams or checks. Left NZ and have never looked back.

The rest of the world isn't as wrapped up in this UE requirement, when you have hours and experience its all that counts. Perhaps if Air NZ looked after those in the regionals (regardless of what you say they don't) and gave them career progression into the jets they would have zero problems.

"edited to keep thread on track"

[framer]

That's not the solution BOOM. If they give progression it just moves their problem further down the chain.
At the end of the day they are just trying to create Industrial Relations leverage so that they can keep wages low.
If this goes through there will be zero bargaining power for the main pilot group within a few short years. In addition, commands will dry up. NZ isn't the first country to go down this track.

[BO0M]

Well it does and doesn't solve their problem Framer. Look after those you employ from day one and that experience stays. They don't head off to OZ, Europe or the sandpit, or even worse they leave the group to go to the other NZ operators (worse because they lose experience they effectively paid for to the competition).

Eagle is a good training ground where low hour GA guys and girls can start and get a solid fountain before moving through the other regionals and on to the back seat of a heavy.

The UE requirement is simply an HR tool to weed people out, problem is a lot of those people are significantly more competent than those who do have UE. So you might see where I'm going with this, fixed the flawed application and interview process and you get more people through the doors. It all starts at the ground level.

[limitedrisk]

Looks like they have found a short term solution to getting a few more pilots directly into the jet op.

Multiple Jetstar NZ pilots getting the call up to start ASAP. Some are ex link but others have never been employed in the "group".

These are not any of the guys that sat on yes letters for years but rather newer applications.

Makes a mockery of the "recruit to group" scenario. If you are in the links just do 6 months with Jetstar NZ then you will get the call up ASAP.....

Don't believe anything HR tell you....

[Daylight Robbery]

A lot of these ex-Link people were really competitive candidates for Air NZ mainline, it's just they didn't hire for so long they ended up taking the Jetstar NZ option.

Most would have been first cabs off the rank into the Air NZ jet operation if they hadn't been picked up by Jetstar, so being hired now isn't so strange.

[6080ft]

"Oops that's wright Mt Cook and ALPA pushed to do this with a combined regional contract that would have lead to this down the track but the two other link groups voted it down!"

BOOM - have to correct you on that statement. The largest voter response was the Eagle pilots (prob as they had the most to gain), followed by air Nelson, with a low response from the Cook pilots. In all three groups, of those who voted, the majority voted for the MECA contract. It's just a pity the turnout was so poor that the vote could not be considered a clear result. Disappointing after the work the various councils put in.

[BO0M]

6080, not going get get into the detail of actual % ratios but the MECA was heavily pushed by the Mt Cook council. The fact that the new ATRs were coming lead to a lot in the other two groups to either not vote or vote against it in hope of new equipment.

Reality is MECA is a moot point. My statement was more one of if they they can't get something like the MECA through as a group there is no hope.:ugh:

Don't really want to hijack a thread which has a very important goal so will remove the previous statement from the original post.

[URCleared]

ooo, what happened there, looked like a couple of forum posts were just removed about an insight into anz low morale at the moment.

[URCleared]

Reminder: 1 more week remains for submissions!

[27/09]

6080, not going get get into the detail of actual % ratios but the MECA was heavily pushed by the Mt Cook council. The fact that the new ATRs were coming lead to a lot in the other two groups to either not vote or vote against it in hope of new equipment.

BOOM, from what I've been told you've got your facts wrong, I think 6080ft is closer to the mark.

[URCleared]

Reminder: Submissions close end of Friday, tomorrow!

[Semi Rigid]

URCleared, Des, Brian
Has there been any fallout directed towards NZAIA regarding their endorsement on mainstream media that the national airline be allowed to recruit cheap foreign labour?
Surely this was a PR mistake? Has there been a retraction or even an acknowledgement that the AIA got it wrong?

[D check]

Hi Semi Rigid

I can confirm the AIA did indeed make a submission on all of this very much towards the end of the submission period.

There has been no sign of a retraction or acknowledgement of getting it wrong on the part of the AIA that I am aware of.

Thank God we have the GAA to assist in such matters now. I have been very impressed to date with how they have handled this particular episode. Their submission was rather good in my view and included many comments from those of us on the frontlines...:D

Regards

D check...

[URCleared]

SUCCESS!!!!

News Release (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/general/generalinformation/news/essentialskillsdemandlistreview2013.htm) from Immigration NZ

Submissions to add occupations to the ISSL were declined for Aeroplane Pilot, Fitter and Turner, and Metal Fabricator.


A big thank you to the GAA group and all those who made submissions in support.

[deadcut]

Well done to everyone that made the effort to
speak out against that.

[URCleared]

When pay/conditions on offer are improved, then you know they are really in need.

Emails to HR going unanswered, pilots calling and getting the brush-off, doesn't sound to me like they are really that worried.

[Piltdown Man]

I'm very pleased you guys won this one. I truly find it surprising that NZ can't generate enough pilots to satisfy Air NZ. I'm not having a dig, but Europe is awash with qualified Kiwis. So the homeland has to be heaving with them. Unless of course, they are sensible guys and won't work for peanuts - in which case I say "good on yah!" I think an earlier poster has got it right when he suggests that some nasty bean counters are trying to drive down T's & C's.

Finally, if ANZ can't find enough locals who can pass the sim. checks, they are either looking under the wrong bushes or, more likely, a bunch of clowns who don't know what a proper pilot looks like and how he flies. Maybe they'd like to start their own ab-initio training courses to ensue they have "proper pilots"?

Good news!

PM

[Oakape]

but Europe is awash with qualified Kiwis

The problem is that not too many qualified Kiwis want to come home, as it means going to the bottom of the seniority list & sitting in the back seat.