QF 767 slide deployment Perth 10/7

[blueloo]

There is some rumour a CSM popped a slide yesterday on a 767 in Perth as the aerobridge approached almost injuring ground staff ..... I know one was popped a month or so ago in Syd, but does anyone know if this Perth incident is true...

[Transition Layer]

blueloo,

Heard the same thing myself yesterday. Was the L1 door on a 767, which is apparently the CSMs designated door. :eek:

[Capt Claret]

I have what purports to be a photo but no means to host it at present.

[seconds]

I have 2 photos and for a large fee could email them to you.

[blueloo]

How bout for no fee you use a free photo sharing website and post the links here ? Pretty please..... (look i even asked nicely) :} :}

[falconx]

Seconds how about I shout you a coffee

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Does anyone know how long it has been since the flight attendants did the "disarm and crosscheck" procedure? When did it change?

[seconds]

On an iDevice so having trouble uploading. On my Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/SecondHandPilot

FalconX just a large latte thanks mate. No sugar. Will be in Perth next month.

[SRM]

I was about to say Disarm Doors and Crosscheck and :{

[Roo]

Does anyone know how long it has been since the flight attendants did the "disarm and crosscheck" procedure? When did it change?
About 15 to 20 years ago.
IIRC it was so CC would take responsibility for their own doors. Perception was they were relying on the cross checkers too much.

[nitpicker330]

Sorry but this is a Qantas procedures fault.

In CX normally the doors are opened from the outside AFTER the crew give them a Thumbs up.

If they forget to disarm the door, opening from the OUTSIDE disarms the door.

Simple..

[Mstr Caution]

Nitpicker330.

That's a handy piece of info.

I'll forward that to the Boeing Technical pilots and I'm sure they'll amend Qantas procedures straight away.

MC

[Keg]

It's not a procedural fault. The procedures are clear and appear to be the same as Cathay's. I suspect a brain fart or similar.

ALAEA Fed Sec. It's not been 20 years as Roo has suggested. It came in after I joined and that was 18 years ago. My gut says it changed after I became an F/O and so that makes it sometime in the last 15ish years.

[nitpicker330]

Well laugh and snigger all you want mastercaution, if its not already QF proceedure ( maybe it is Keg? ) then it should be.

If the door was opened from the OUTSIDE this incident SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE........

That you cannot dispute......

[ejectx3]

It will still pop on a maggot if opened from the outside

[Mstr Caution]

Nitpicker330

You stated "sorry, but this is a Qantas procedures Fault"

Then you went on to outline how opening a door from the outside will automatically disarm the door.

Do you honestly believe that Qantas would not be aware of this?

If the crew member involved HAD followed Qantas procedures, given the thumbs up for ground staff to open the door from the outside then this thread would not exist.

It is more a case of a crew member NOT following company procedures for that aircraft type.

Human Error.

[Dash 42]

It will still pop on a maggot if opened from the outside


Likewise on the jungle jet.

[Capt Kremin]

It is a Qantas procedure. People ignore them sometimes however for a myriad of reasons.

I almost lost a door on pushback in Perth a few years ago due to people forgetting procedures. Fortunately the Ground Engineer knew his procedures and became the broken link in the causal chain.

[GAFA]

Dash42,

You must be talking about the Emb135/145. If not then back to the Emb170/190 books for you as the first movement of the external handle on the 170/190 disarms the door.

[4Greens]

The procedure needs to be changed every couple of years so that people relearn and it remains at the forefront of the memory bank.

[nitpicker330]

Sorry but the first comment by blueloo said "a CSM popped a slide before the aerobridge approached". Based on that statement and my personal observations of cabin crew on 737's opening the door from the inside I incorrectly assumed Qantas procedure was for the crew inside to open the doors....

Hence my comment regarding opening from the outside a better option.

I realise the 737 will not disarm the door by opening from the outside as it needs the crew to physically remove the girt bar on the floor...( old style!! )

[Derfred]

IIRC it was so CC would take responsibility for their own doors. Perception was they were relying on the cross checkers too much.

WTF?

That's it. From now on I won't check the other guy's QNH any more. He needs to learn to be responsible for his own altimeter.

[FFRATS]

KEG
It's not been 20 years as Roo has suggested. It came in after I joined and that was 18 years ago. My gut says it changed after I became an F/O and so that makes it sometime in the last 15ish years.

I really do enjoy your posts and the information you have given over the 4000+ post but do so many have to inform/repeat to us your Company, career, rank, hours, DOB....blah blah.

We get it, your a QF B767 Captain as your profile states already. When things changed v's your rank at the time is for you to think about as I'm not sure it is relevant.

Were you also Cabin Crew, CSS then CSM pre 1994 ? :)

Agreed, most likely a brain fart. Simple.

FFRATS

[nitpicker330]

Keg is answering any questions with his typical professional calm manner and you chose to have a go at him????:=

[ASY68]

Like wise on the A320, if the armament pin has not been removed by cabin crew and the rampie opens the door then the slide will activate.

[Username here]

I have never seen so much "douchebaggery" in one post before...

Well done :mad:

[FFRATS]

Re-read, I do enjoy post's just must SO many relate to rank and company etc.
Just distracts from information given and looks to me as irrelevant excess.

Could have said "Must have been about 15 years ago." :rolleyes:

Username here/nitpicker330, you are precious considering many other posters constant attack's.

Sorry to side track, back on topic

FFRATS

[nitpicker330]

ASY68:-----Not correct, its not an armament pin!! On the A330 the red "remove before flight" streamer and attached pin is used to stop the arming system lever being placed in armed by mistake. The crew remove and stow the pin THEN arm the door.

So after landing they disarm the door THEN place the pin and attached red streamer back in place to ensure it is disarmed and the arming lever cannot be moved by mistake.

I think the A320 would be the same surely??

[Dash 42]

GAFA,

Dash42,

You must be talking about the Emb135/145. If not then back to the Emb170/190 books for you as the first movement of the external handle on the 170/190 disarms the door.

My mistake. FYI, the 135/145 doesn't have slides.

[404 Titan]

nitpicker330
I think the A320 would be the same surely??
Correct.
A320/321 FCOM Gen
When the slide arming lever is in the ARMED position, the slide is connected to the floor brackets on both sides of the door. When the door is opened, the slide inflates and deploys automatically. If the inflation bottle fails to discharge automatically, a crew member can open its valve to make it perform
its function. Opening the door from the outside disarms the door and the escape slide.

[Keg]

FFRATS, I provide the time frame as some sort of reference. We're I to say, nope, it wasn't 20 years ago it was less than 15, I have no other time stamp to back it up. We're I to say that I recall the change, I'm pretty sure it happened after F/O promotion and I know that time stamp then that gives the time stamp a frame of reference.

Certainly not intending it to blow my own trumpet but I also don't presume that. Just because some here may know my background, I don't expect everyone to know, care or even remember it.

Anyway, as penance for my deeds in providing a time stamp where i thought it appropriate but others didn't I'll now say 'girt bar' 17 times to keep 004wercras happy. :E :ok:

Were you also Cabin Crew, CSS then CSM pre 1994 ? :)

Much worse. Ex cadet. :eek: :} :D

[Tidbinbilla]

This playing the man is getting tiresome :ugh:
Back on topic, please.

[Bad Hat Harry]

QF procedure is that doors on all aircraft are opened from the outside by groundstaff after receiving thumbs up.
My take on this is that the CSM/Purser rotated the door handle instead of disarming the door.
A new CSM/Purser(unfamiliarity) would not have spent any time at left one on any aircraft.
The person was either lacking in adequate training or fatigued.
There is a third option: The CSM/Purser asked a flight attendant to disarm the door.
The only sector on a 767 operated by international CC is SYD/HNL

[QueenBuzzzzz]

There are a lot of new CSM's in the Perth base...... My guess is they've been in the trainer doing EPS and their muscle memory is opening the door to perform an evacuation.

We're trained when disarming to remove the pin from the pouch FIRST, so it's in your hand and THEN disarm. Not the other way around. That way if you forget to disarm then you're holding the pin and that will trigger the action.

We're also trained to never, ever open the door..... Always ground staff.

Hence me thinking it must have been a muscle memory thing.

[Transition Layer]

Not a Perth CSM....
Try again QueenBuzzzzz

[ditzyboy]

QueenBuzzzzz, there is no pin on the 767 aircraft.

Over-familiarity with 737s and cracking the door on arrival can pose a risk on the wide bodies if one isn't fully situationally aware. I am NOT saying this had anything to do with the incident in question, just something of which I am mindful after a prolonged stint on 737s.

[Angle of Attack]

Cracking door on arrival on the 737 combined with tiredness and repeating on the 767 caused this I guess. That's why the bridge wasn't in, because its done as the aircraft comes to a stop...

[QueenBuzzzzz]

Yes, I know the 767 has no pin, I was just correcting an earlier post about the order we're trained to arm/disarm.

A girl I know armed her 767 door and then immediately went to open it on her supernumery flight. Luckily the CSS was keeping a close eye on her and intervened. She raised the lever about half way up. Lucky.

Sorry, that's why I speculated muscle memory for a new CSM.

Obviously way off.

[Firecat]

Stick to your knitting.... err A380
No PER CSM
No Pin
No Muscle memory...even muscles can distinguish between a disarming lever and a big long handle

[Mister Warning]

Perhaps the CSM just fcuked up. None of us can throw the first stone...

[QueenBuzzzzz]

What a charming reply Firecat.

You must be an absolute joy to fly with.

My posts may have been ignorant but they were well intentioned.

Ask the EP instructors about "trainer brain"..... It does exist.

[FlexibleResponse]

A few years ago I was amused to see that some Australian domestic airlines placed the orange "armed" tape across the emergency view window...thereby partially obscuring the outside view when needed in emergency conditions to check outside for fire or other danger before evacuation...

...but that's another story.

[Potsie Weber]

A few years ago I was amused to see that some Australian domestic airlines placed the orange "armed" tape across the emergency view window...thereby partially obscuring the outside view when needed in emergency conditions to check outside for fire or other danger before evacuation...

The tape across the window shows those from the outside that the door is armed on those "next generation" type aircraft. Yes, it is very next generation that dates back to the 100 series 737 from 1968.

In an emergency, the crew procedure would be to flick the tape aside to assess outside before opening the door.

[Keg]

The tape across the window shows those from the outside that the door is armed on those "next generation" type aircraft.

And that's important on those aircraft because unlike most other aeroplanes, the door slide does NOT disarm when opened from the outside. Hence, its the only means of those outside the aircraft being able to check if the door is actually disarmed or whether they're likely to get a slide in their face if they persist.

[seconds]

So anyone hear why this happened? Just a bit of a whoopsie?

Photos for those who haven't seen it https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=487251801349388&set=a.148955695179002.37877.118159108258661&type=1&theater

[ejectx3]

Fatigue was the reason. Overworked CSM on the lower pay rate just messed up after being worked to the bone by cheap masters.

Reap -> sow

[Aus380]

And that's important on those aircraft because unlike most other aeroplanes, the door slide does NOT disarm when opened from the outside. Hence, its the only means of those outside the aircraft being able to check if the door is actually disarmed or whether they're likely to get a slide in their face if they persist.

I believe that on a 737 the slide has to actually fall quite some distance on release from the door bustle (should it be opened in the armed mode) before the inflation system is activated. This distance is purposefully greater than the distance between the door bustle and the platform surface of the aero bridge or steps or catering truck from where the ground staff are opening the door that way in theory the slide should not inflate but just flop out and most probably giving them a hell of a fright. Now if the flight attendant bent down and pulled the red webbing loop, it would suggest to me they perhaps had a beef with the ground staff over the assignment of a delay

[Derfred]

... or because accident statistics don't warrant a re-design.