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View Full Version : Tilting at the ATSB windmill again


Old Akro
8th Jul 2013, 00:27
The recent report on the Warrior that landed on a road near Hamilton caught my eye. Report AO-2013-071. It is a small report on a minor incident, yet embodies most of the failings of ATSB reports. The report is not good enough from which to yield any learning, which begs the question; why do the investigation at all?

My comments on this report are not intended to reflect on the pilot. He found himself in a weather condition that he didn't like, executed a precautionary landing, walked away - and it looks like the aircraft can be used again. The very definition of a perfect landing.

The issue is that the report has no intellectual rigor, presents data inconsistently and does not table primary data - only ATSB edited data. It fails to be a transparent, objective technical report. These reports should present primary data and allow the reader to track through the logic that leads to the conclusion. This report, like many ATSB reports, does not allow this.

My first issue is the presentation of times. UTC or local is not specified. The times associated with the forecast only make sense if they are local times, which mean the ATSB has converted them - which is not acknowledged. A small issue maybe, but is shows sloppiness.

My second issue is that the ATSB state the forecast trough was passing through Hamilton at the time of the incident, but the data that is tabled says it was due to pass through at 1500 hours. A warrior with a 30 kt headwind would have a flight time from Coldstream of 119 minutes. So it should have been in the area at 1230 to 1300 - 2 hours ahead of the trough. This is not considered by the report. The calculation is not done by the report. One wonders if the author knows how to do it.

The third issue is that the tabled forecast and BOM "one - minute data" and SPECI data would indicate that Hamilton was VFR. The report does not consider this.

Based on the forecasts & actual weather presented by the ATSB in the report, this flight should have been possible under VFR to its destination. A report with intellectual rigor does not leave this sort of un-addressed inconsistencies.

In order to be a document that might provide lessons for air safety, I would have liked the safety message to have discussed:
1. Whether the student pilot had sufficient training / skills for marginal VFR flight
2. The pilot flew over a number of private airfields. Possibly as many as 7 (2 shown on the WAC reproduced in the report). Under stress we tend to focus on what is in the windscreen. I would have liked to have seen a discussion about the other alternatives that could have been chosen.
3. There was no discussion about fuel state. If the aircraft had significant fuel reserves, was circling while a shower passed an option? Or had the pilot run out of options?

The thing I like least about the report is the schools response to raise the weather minima for training flights. This is an understandable and politically required response in the face of questioning from the ATSB and / CASA. But doesn't it create a self-fulfilling prophesy? Isn't this incident an illustration that we should undertake more training in marginal conditions to better equip pilots? Isn't this report and its required response from the school just contributing to create a generation of fair weather flyers?

I have been in the reception area of schools and watched while a whole days lessons have been cancelled because of passing / intermittent poor weather. The risk management procedures make it the easy, safe choice. But in the good old days, I went to the flying school for every lesson. Sometimes we did one circuit and came down. Sometimes we started navs not knowing if we could complete them. To me, this is how we learn. But abstract, theoretical, reports like this one together with pressure on organisations to introduce remedial procedures to prevent a recurrence are robbing us of a full & thorough learning experience.

Some guys on this forum don't always read everything, so I'll say it again. The pilot did a good job.The pilot got in a situation he didn't like, landed without obvious damage to the aircraft and walked away. But, I would have hoped the ATSB would do what I hope the pilot has done. Conduct a post-mortem of the event to consider the other options in the pursuit of being a better, safer pilot.

And by the way, note the creeping influence of EASA in the thinking of the ATSB / CASA. Why? I would have thought that the FAA was regarded as the best practice organisation and that the terrain & weather over a significant part of the US was more similar to Australia than Europe. And the sort of private flying and long navex's that we do are more similar to the US than Europe.

djpil
8th Jul 2013, 00:42
The thing I like least about the report is the schools response to raise the weather minima for training flights.Not what the report stated.
the aircraft operator has advised the ATSB that they are considering incorporating into their operations manual, minimum weather criteria for student pilots conducting solo navigation flights. These criteria would exceed the visual meteorological conditions (VMC) minima and the VFR alternate aerodrome requirements stipulated in the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP)6, and also include a minimum time buffer on forecast changes to non-VMC.Sounds like a sensible response to me. Nothing quantified there and they did not promise to do anything other than consider it.

Old Akro
8th Jul 2013, 00:58
DJPIL

Fair point, but the alternative might be to add practical demonstration of marginal VFR strategies to the training syllabus.

If the school is what I think it is then its a good competent school. But I'd like to see more training relating to marginal VFR rather than the easier CASA friendly option of being more weather cautious.

But wouldn't it have been good if the ATSB broached these issues in its report?

Typhoon650
8th Jul 2013, 01:49
I remember vividly one of my lessons post GFPT with my instructor. We went up with a ceiling of 1000ft and it rapidly dropped down to 600ft only a few minutes out of the circuit.
The same, excellent instructor also had me do a leg or two of an instructed cross country flight at low level (1000ft agl) to get a feel for how very different things looked when forced low by weather, and how short a distance you could actually see from that height. It drastically reduces your ability to find and pick landing areas.
Both were very useful lessons, not only in why not to get into the situation in the first place, but to land the thing as soon as reasonably practicable and I believe marginal conditions should be trained for. Humans make mistakes, why make a mistake a fatal one? Let's give new pilots another slice of swiss cheese.
I personally think the student pilot did well, although perhaps we should also be teaching VFR pilots not only how to read a forecast, but how to cast an eye skywards and read the immediate weather?
I've never seen a front or trough sneak in unannounced.

Sunfish
8th Jul 2013, 07:19
Actually I would like practical hands on lessons in when and how to turn back.

I've been a back seat pax on a sortie where the student and instructor decided to turn back and it was a wise decision.

I've also had to make the decision on my own once but I'm still not sure I can't be tricked into continuing.

VH-XXX
8th Jul 2013, 07:26
Actually I would like practical hands on lessons in when and how to turn back.

Would this help Sunny?

VH-XXX's easy guide to turning back due to poor weather.

Step 1 - Recognising bad weather

- If the weather looks bad ahead, as in dark skies, heavy rain, lightning, rising terrain that goes up into the clouds, fog, cloud on the ground, then you are heading towards bad weather.

Step 2 - turning back

- Put your hand(s) on the yoke / control column / autopilot.
- Set direction of travel using approriate control movements to 180 degrees from the current direction of travel.

That should take all of about 2 minutes in a lesson to get down-pat.

Jack Ranga
8th Jul 2013, 08:20
Sunny, out of interest, have you ever landed on a wet runway? Have you experienced passing showers in the circuit? Have you done a low level circuit with the hood on with your instructor?

Old Akro
8th Jul 2013, 09:05
Captain Oveur: You ever been in a cockpit before?
Joey: No sir, I've never been up in a plane before.
Captain Oveur: You ever seen a grown man naked?
Captain Oveur: Joey, have you ever been in a... in a Turkish prison?

Checkboard
8th Jul 2013, 21:15
Actually I would like practical hands on lessons in when and how to turn back.
Basic rule, if you're VFR and new to the game, when it is no longer possible to maintain a visual horizon either by changing altitude or direction, turn back or divert.

Old Akro
8th Jul 2013, 23:00
Basic rule

I think this is an instance where you need to experience it yourself and that rules just don't do it.

You need to experience the difference in visibility between skimming under the cloud and lower, you need to practice some nav work (& diversions) at 500 ft AGL, you need the indelible lesson of choosing a landing spot in front of you after having flown over a perfectly good private strip. We teach stall recovery, spiral dive recovery, engine failure, fire actions, yet the training regime does little to equip pilots for marginal VFR.

Once again, without any intent to criticise the pilot, I reckon you could identify 10 alternate strategies that would have resulted in an airport landing. The only way I learned some of these was (after years of VFR flying) to grab an instructor and we did a number of flights in marginal VFR. But it seems to me that the demands of risk management mean that this sort of training is being avoided by schools rather than embraced.

My first VFR flight on top was done solo after I got my licence, as was my first flight through a rain shower, first flight through the Kilmore gap at 500 ft AGL, first nav segment at low level picking my way though the hills west of Macedon, first flight on a grey day over water where the horizon was indistinct. I'll bet 90% of us are the same. My question is: is this the way it should be?

Jack Ranga
8th Jul 2013, 23:20
Clearedtoreenter, I didn't say below circling height, I said low level circuit. It appears that sunny wont answer my genuine question. What I was trying to get from him was does his school see some scuddy weather coming to the circuit then get them out there to experience these operations in the safety of their home base and with an instructor on board. I may have been really fortunate but both the CFI's I have worked for have this philosophy.

I also had a great instructor for both my PPL & CPL who'd get me to make the go/no-go decisions early on in my dual navs. He'd bring his DAPS (I didn't know what DAPS were when I started flying) we turned back a couple of times. I probably learnt more from those navs then the completed ones.

If anybody came back through the Kilmore Gap yesterday it was perfect for this. There was a low scuddy layer that was fog burning off plus a higher level of cloud. VFR in between! Perfect for launching out of Moorabbin and low level navigating north of the Gap. I wonder how many had a Nav planned and actually launched?

Forgot to add, when I was training as a pilot, if there was an accident schools seemed to look at accidents, find the shortcomings and make sure we had a bit of extra training in the areas that may have caused that accident. Now it seems to be that you lower the standard to the lowest common denominator. Read the Oxford solution to flying different types of single engine aircraft. Genius!

Jabawocky
8th Jul 2013, 23:37
JR, having had a similar sadistic instructor, who made me do 500 agl for a long haul through the hills and and at other times did navs with weather around, it meant i knew very early on what was good, what was bad and what was ugly.

After all I was there to learn from instructors, that is what I paid and signed up for.

Those who do not do this, are just setting students up for stress or failure later on when by themselves and out of their depth.

Another step in the process of decaying standards.

Jack Ranga
8th Jul 2013, 23:40
Indeed! :ok: