Brookfield vs Storm McGinley

[sierralima]

Dear Pilots,

I have searched google and PPrune for the differences, but not found too much information regarding this.

I was wondering if someone could explain the differences between the Brookfield and Storm McGinley contracts which Ryanair offer to their pilots.

So far I have only managed to find out from some pilots already at Ryanair that as an FO you start with 5euros less per hour with Storm. However Storm guarantee you 30 hours of pay every month, regardless of if you actually fly 30 hours or not eg in Winter.

Correct me if I am wrong. To me the Brookfield deals seems better.

Thanks

[McBruce]

Storm where meant to be respectful but they've refused to meet the minimum hourly payment for what ever reason. I.e if you had any unavailability for that month, sick etc they don't pay.

Hours in RYR have nose dived over the past two years. Hours are too volatile now.

[Whitstle_Blower]

It would appear (having spoken to some friends in Ryanair), that they are pretty much one and the same.
You don't work for either of them, or yourself.
They both provide service pilots to Ryanair on a full time basis. Both use the Irish accountancy firms in order to avoid all tax related issues in the UK.
As far as I am aware, the cadets that are going through training at the moment are given no choice of who to go with. It is a lottery as to which one you are 'assigned' to.

The only difference is that Storm pays less on the promise that if you do not get shceduled 30 hours per month, they will make up the short fall.
Both take €4.50 from your hourly rate in order to cover sim training costs (which of course they can claim tax relief on). Why they don't just remove that and reduce the pay by €4.50 per hour?! I bet the reason is because then they have no way of trying to justify you are not an employee of Ryanair as you pay for your own recurrent training like a real contractor does.

So in short, stay away from them both!

[McBruce]

WB, as with anything in RYR, its all set up in an intricate web. The training department is set up as a different company called East Midlands Training LTD. I assume the 4.50 payment goes to them. Its the TRTO part of RYR and its self sufficient. I don't think they get a pennies funding from RYR. The cadet courses are all paid to this company and its operated on a profit basis, I assume, like any company. This is why many speculate that the training of cadets is continuous despite no growth at the minute. It certainly shows on my roster as I'm standby for 2-3 days per 5 day duty cycle taking in around 50 hours per month during our busiest period. A couple of years ago we hit limits and prayed for a standby. Now your lucky to see a decent pay at the end of the month.

[sierralima]

Hey Guys,

Many thanks for your speedy replies! Indeed it is correct the cadets aren't given any option as to the contract they are given. Recently I have been offered to fly with Storm, and this week a flurry of people I know have been offered Brookfield. Whistle Blower, jobs are so scarce these days and jet hours to me are invaluable at this early stage in my career so I have to take it. It's a successful company and I think I will have good job security knowing it's not an airline which is going to go bust.

Having spoken to other cadets at the current Type Rating course I hear Ryanair fly the Storm guys more in Winter as the Storm pilots are cheaper? Hence the 30hr gurantee? Though considering what McBruce said (bearing in mind I don't have my contract yet as it hasn't been drawn yet) it worries me if they have chopped this 30hr guarantee as well...

I know in the past guys used to max out to almost to 900hrs per annum. Does anyone have an idea for what the average is nowadays? I understand it may be heavily base dependant...

McBruce, your second post comes as no surprise. Really don't understand why such a big, profitable, successful airlines needs an additional revenue/profit stream through type rating courses...but if the East Midlands Ltd is true, then I guess it all makes sense.

Considering the fleet will shrink over the next few years, and only start growing again in 2015-2017 it's not a good sign with the continuous hiring of cadets. To further compound this, when I was at my assessment the assessor told me they plan to take 400 in 2014, 500 in 2015, 600 in 2016 and 600 in 2017...Maybe he knows something the public don't know..? Perhaps a big Boeing Max order??

[McBruce]

Average in my base (UK) was between 600-700 last year. Nothing suggests this year will be better.

Your asking all the right questions! I suggest you become a member of IALPA, 15 quid a month, bargain price, plus it provides legal protection. For all the juicy info then its REPA Frontpage (http://www.repaweb.org), lots of history to learn and also signup to www.ryanairpilotgroup.com more than the majority of the RYR pilot pool is actively participating on industrial issues in RPG as we try and grow the association to a point in which RYR can no longer pretend it doesn't exist. Encourage your course mates as well. It's a long career if we don't succeed.

Either contract will be the same IMO. I would take the BRK for the higher payment and to not be shafted for what ever reason on the minimum hours guarantee. If you do take storm. They will strongly advise you to opt out your rights. While they will make it sound its in your favour. It is not, opt in. You would only opt out if you where a genuine contract pilot with multiple lines of work in various countries. Storm will send you a sugar coated email written like a true politician, with about 15 pros to opt out and a handful of cons. Says it all really. It's in your favour to opt in. Guidance for this can be sought from repa or IALPA who have a great deal of knowledge on this.

Good luck and enjoy the training. For what it's worth, the training is excellent.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

"Having spoken to other cadets at the current Type Rating course I hear Ryanair fly the Storm guys more in Winter as the Storm pilots are cheaper? Hence the 30hr gurantee? Though considering what McBruce said (bearing in mind I don't have my contract yet as it hasn't been drawn yet) it worries me if they have chopped this 30hr guarantee as well..."

Please bare in mind as indicated before that the 30 hour guarantee is only valid if you have no sick days, no "annual leave" days so...

Let assume you can't get time off in summer like the majority (although it seems more I am speaking to this year have managed a bit of time at least). That means only time off you can get is Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, so 5 months. If you have one month off (now 4 months) and 1 week off in two seperate months like most of us do your down to only 2 months of guaranteed 30hrs pay.

So that's only 2 useful months of guaranteed pay (in summer you will definitely over 30hrs). Worth 5 euros per hour less...

Im not sure about the accountant set up just know about the hours situation. I appreciate cadets don't get a choice in contract (nor base). From what I understand dependent on the type rating course you are on depends on which contract you are offered (it alternates)

[zerotohero]

Depone

I suspect hours will be the same regardless of which you choose.

Expect 500-600 hours. What's that? Around €35,000 as a professional 737 pilot before paying 40% tax?

just to check but wiki currently are saying
(Rates of income tax Since 1 January 2012, the tax rates apply as follows:
At 20% (the standard rate): the first €32,800, for individuals without dependent children)

adding a few expenses on you will probably end up paying around 15% max for that type of earnings

[McBruce]

Want to know what sort of mentality awaits? This ones fresh from today....

A memo created by RPG from pilot feedback of a recent base meeting:

To: All Pilots
Re: Threat by Management
Date: 07th July 2013

As you may know, on Thursday July 4th 2013, xxxx held a meeting with the pilots in Niederrhein along with another HR manager from Dublin. Please refrain from spreading rumours that may be started by the company or agents of the management about this event. The facts are as follows.

The meeting was announced with only 24hours notice. The subject was Winter Aircraft Reductions. During this meeting pilots were told to choose between the following for this winter:

1 unpaid leave
2 winter job sharing
3 base transfer

Management informed the base that a reduction of 20 FO’s and 20 Capt’s for winter is necessary. This is despite the deliberate decision by the company to move over 20 pilots to the base in the last two months.

Pilots were informed if no choice has been made in a week, they will be fired or as quoted during the meeting made 'redundant'. They also claim as there is no ERC in NRN, negotiations will not take place on the issue.

They told the pilots that they will not put these conditions into any memos or any written document. They suggested that the information should be spread throughout the base by word of mouth only.

Further announcements were made about winter groundings similar to last year’s figure of 80 aircraft.

The company is making record profits and will continue to do so. Pilots are being expected to take further pay cuts both in base agreements and command upgrades. A pilots meeting is going to be held in the base next week. Legal advice is being compiled in the context of the above and will be discussed at this meeting.

Where in the past they at least pretended, it is obvious to see that RYR management is no longer negotiating at all. Bases that will be next in line for contract negotiations and winter reductions; this is a wake-up call. This is a pilot problem, not an individual base issue. We ask that you to hold a meeting at your base in the next 7 days to discuss this threat. While we have support by the associations, do not expect someone else to arrange this; we are the RPG and we are responsible for our livelihood.

Please stay in contact with us about the arrangements of your meetings. We will endeavour to keep you posted on all updates as they develop throughout the network. Please stay tuned in to all communication channels and talk to each other on the line.

Your Colleagues

Professional Treatment
for Professional Pilots

www.ryanairpilotgroup.com


They can only poke so much....

[RAT 5]

Pilots were informed if no choice has been made in a week, they will be fired or as quoted during the meeting made 'redundant'.

Now why would they do that? Why fire someone when you can impose unpaid leave? How can you fire someone who is not employed, but a self employed contractor? If they are not fired but made redundant that implies you are an employee and entitled to redundancy compensation. Insisting on no written memos at a management meeting is an admission of something fishy/smelly going on. Surely people have learnt to take recorders to these events.

[don_corleone]

Does anyone know what the 'type rated captain fee' in the Storm contract is?

[RHINO]

Can I ask did someone in fact record the meeting?

[sierralima]

Hey Guys thanks for all the information.

1) So comparing Storm with Brookfield

<500 Hours Storm = €55/hr Brookfield = €60/hr
500 to 1500 Hours Storm = €70/hr Brookfield = €70/hr
1500+ Hours Storm = €75/hr Brookfield = €83/hr

Golf Julliet Papa, I agree with you, Brookfield is hands down better in my opinion. The 30 hour guarantee is not of much use it looks like.

Do you know if say you get a Command upgrade 5-6years down the line, is it again a case of you get whichever contract you get given, or do you have any say in choosing Brookfield or Storm? And are there differences in pay between the two if you are in Left hand seat?


2) Regarding the opt in opt out thing, not really sure what exactly it is, but the way my accountant has worded it seems to suggest that I don't really have an option but to opt out?

3) Tbh from most people I spoke to few years ago they said 850-900hrs per annum was excessive.
750 seems like a healthy amount, but I wouldn't know as I'm still a newbie. As for the suggestion 450-600hrs a year, that just sounds like it's not enough money.
Do many Ryanair guys get second jobs on their rostered days off? Or are you able to ask for part time secondary roles within the company such as ops/dispatch etc.

Cheers

[SD.]

There's loads of part time work you can do...

Compile Jeppy plates, staple RTOW's, sell scratch cards, bus tickets & priority tickets, you can even sit around on standby for 12 hours. Ask your Base Captain how much you can expect to receive?


Comparing BRK vs Storm is a similar to argument to...... AIDS or terminal Cancer.


You have successfully completed a type rating course and associated line training as a PROFESSIONAL PILOT, bloody well act like one.

[McBruce]

Is your account independent chosen by you? or one from the 'approved' list? if hes an indie then I fail to see how hes come to this conclusion. I would find out more and understand what you are opting in and out of... if you go down the storm route!

[left rudder]

You have successfully completed a type rating course and associated line training as a PROFESSIONAL PILOT, bloody well act like one.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=7958596)
PROFESSIONAL means you get paid for doing it!
The argument is about how and how much. The Ryanair philosophy is to excessively reward the shareholder at the expense of the employee. This coupled with morally corrupt tax management has added to the culture of greed we currently "enjoy"