Citywing [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Cyrano

16th Apr 2014, 17:17

Pity Citywing don't operate something slightly larger than a J31, they'd be perfect to take on the now vacant IOM-LTN route

Citywing don't operate anything, they are a ticketing agency pretending to be an airline. The nature of that veneer is evident from a perusal of the accident report on the Manx2 Metroliner accident in Cork.

The fact that they are allowed to continue this pretence is down to a loophole in the CAA regulations relating to aircraft with 19 seats or fewer. If Citywing operated something "slightly larger" than a J31 they would have to become a real airline, with the oversight and safety systems that go with that. :cool:

This is not to cast any aspersions at all on Links Air, who fly for them and who by all accounts are a reputable carrier. But as the Manx2 report made clear, the "ticketing agency" wasn't carrying out any meaningful oversight or auditing of the carriers who flew for it. For the passengers it was therefore the luck of the draw whether you got a good carrier (e.g. Links Air) or you didn't (Air Lada/Flightline BCN).

EI-BUD

8th May 2014, 14:07

Went to manx2.com and the detail on the page made for interesting reading. Stated that Manx2 ceased trading end of 2012 and all queries should be directed to Spain. Clearly little changed except the brand on the aircraft and the metros were gone ... They did a good job of distancing themselves from the reputation damage that was manx2 and the cork crash ...

lfc84

8th Oct 2014, 09:51

PRESS RELEASE

CITYWING EXPLORING OPTIONS FOLLOWING ANNOUNCEMENT

OF BLACKPOOL AIRPORT CLOSURE

Following the announcement made last night (07 October 2014) by Blackpool Airport that the airport will close to passenger traffic as of 15 October, Citywing will temporarily suspend its flights to Blackpool from that date for a period of four weeks.

It is in the interests of the communities of both Blackpool and the Isle of Man that services are resumed as soon as possible, and Blackpool Airport have stated that they will continue to work with the independent aviation businesses currently operating from Blackpool to develop a sustainable future for aviation services at the airport. Citywing will be taking an active part in those discussions to bring back this lifeline air-link as soon as possible.

The local council and many local businesses are now actively seeking a way to ensure Blackpool Airport will re-open with a sustainable new business model and we are pleased to be a part of those discussions.

Citywing Managing Director, David Buck, said: ‘Unfortunately, our discussions with a nearby airport to provide temporary facilities while Blackpool Airport’s issues are resolved proved unworkable. In order to minimise disruption to our passengers, we have reluctantly decided to suspend flights to Blackpool for a period of four weeks.

‘We apologise for any inconvenience caused by Blackpool Airport's decision and we will keep our customers fully updated on progress over the next few weeks. Citywing remains committed to serving its customers and maintaining the vital route between the Isle of Man and Blackpool.

‘Citywing Reservations will contact all passengers in due course and we ask for patience during this process.’

Passengers booked for travel up to 15 October will be unaffected. Passengers booked for travel between 16 and 22 October will be offered a full refund or alternative travel arrangements. Passengers booked for travel between 23 October and 16 November will automatically be given a full refund.

rob39

8th Oct 2014, 12:44

So where could Citywing go next???? Surely they could not go toe to toe with Flybe/easyj on their existing Liverpool/Manchester routes?? Now Blackpool is no more other options appear thin on the ground. Could Carlisle be an option? Would re opening a Leeds route be viable??

virginblue

6th Nov 2014, 09:25

I note that flights to/from Anglesey are not bookable beyond December 9, 2014. Did I miss something? Could not find anything in the general media why flights appear to end and nothing in the Cardiff thread here on PPRUNE.:confused:

litefoot1

6th Nov 2014, 09:57

litefoot1

6th Nov 2014, 10:11

Wales Air Forum have replied to my tweet:

"there should be a new contract awarded soon. Flights maybe operated by someone else #staytuned (https://twitter.com/hashtag/staytuned?src=hash)"

"it is a PSO route awarded by @WelshGovernment (https://twitter.com/WelshGovernment). It had to go back out for tender and should be announced any time after the 3rd. It may be awarded to @Fly_Citywing (https://twitter.com/Fly_Citywing) or another operator."

virginblue

6th Nov 2014, 11:53

Thank you for you inquiries. Tells a bit about the route if it goes virtually unnoticed that flights are no longer beyond early next month...:eek:

litefoot1

6th Nov 2014, 12:28

When they say 3rd, they meant this month, so announcement should be anytime now apparently.

virginblue

6th Nov 2014, 12:49

With Links Air now offering scheduled flights themselves and having the necessary IT infrastructure in place, wouldn't it be a no brainer to tender for the flights themselves - given that Citywing apparently earns money by having the flights operated on its behalf by Links Air, the latter should always be able to make a lower offer than Citywing without having to operate for less than at the moment.....

Seems as if Citywing is sort of between a rock and a hard place. They will need to find anohter operate that is so much cheaper than Links Air that Citywing can pay them and still earn some money on top of that.

litefoot1

6th Nov 2014, 13:09

On the Wales Air Forum, member Gerallt Marsh has listed the key points of the contract which must be adhered to by the operator. The document is on the Welsh government website.

"PSO Term from 10th December 2014 - 9th December 2018
Annual Budget allocated between 1m & 1.3m per annum
Flights must be non-stop
Max Single Fare of £60 one-way for tirst 60% and max £90 for remainder.
Timings must be scheduled within RAF Valley‟s opening hours of 08:00 to 18:00 on Monday to Thursday, 08:00 to 17:00 on Friday. Note
First departure from Cardiff no later than 08:00.
First departure from RAF Valley no later than 09:00.
Last departure from RAF Valley no earlier than 17:00 Monday to Thursday and no earlier than 16:00 on Friday.
Minimum of 2 x Daily flights on a aircraft no larger than 19 seats (however scheduled flights are only allowed to operate during blocks at the beginning & end of Valley opening times due to RAF Training."

SWBKCB

6th Nov 2014, 16:22

Seems odd not to have the contract sorted only just a month away from the end of the old one :eek:

Flightrider

6th Nov 2014, 16:27

On a previous contract renewal, Citywing (in its former guise) kept services on sale whilst contracts were being sorted out. I can only assume that it not doing so on this occasion is a sign that contracts aren't being sorted out and it's therefore going to another operator. May be wrong, but I can't see this as a good sign.

litefoot1

6th Nov 2014, 16:40

lfc84

6th Nov 2014, 16:50

The word "safe" when discussing Citywing (or its former guise) really does fill me with fear. No matter what the intended context.

Letsflycwl

6th Nov 2014, 21:27

Any idea on who these 2 operators are that have applied ? What aircraft will they be using ??

Interesting to see if Citywing are one of them too ?

runway30

6th Nov 2014, 22:43

The tender documents are in the public domain and specify that the bidder must hold an Air Operator's Certificate.

litefoot1

11th Nov 2014, 14:17

So Links Air have taken over the Cardiff-Anglesey route from Citywing. Not great times for Citywing with their loss of the Blackpool-IOM link as well (although that couldn't be helped from their point of view).

Fingers crossed they start a route from Carlisle in 2015. Maybe expand to other regional airports too?

rob39

12th Nov 2014, 21:27

Not sure if Carlisle would be a goer, is there really a need to fly to Carlisle. I wonder if there is options to look at Belfast-cork or are the numbers their to increase the Newcastle route. What about linking Gloucester direct with Ireland?? How would an Edinburgh route do. All viable options for City wing to look at. They have 3 lets operating their current routes at the moment

Buster the Bear

12th Nov 2014, 21:43

A lack of loo on board resticts somewhat! I'd hate to be going around the hold during fog in a desperate need of a pee!

Cyrano

12th Nov 2014, 22:28

I wonder if there is options to look at Belfast-cork

Rob, go and read the accident report (http://www.aaiu.ie/node/621) from the last time Citywing (then called Manx2) flew from Belfast to Cork. Six people died as a result of a chain of events to which a near-total lack of oversight - or indeed operational management competence - on the part of both Citywing/Manx2 and the Spanish subcontractor were significant contributors. I (and probably quite a lot of other people in Ireland) would not trust Citywing/Manx2 to fly a kite on the beach, let alone a scheduled passenger service, and IMHO the sooner the CAA amends the ATOL regulations to eliminate this "sub-20-seat" loophole which shamefully allows them to stay in operation, the better. Let them stay far away from Belfast-Cork, and RIP those who lost their lives.

(For the avoidance of doubt: I am not casting any aspersions whatsoever on Links Air, who are a reputable airline (=AOC holder) which does some flying for Citywing/Manx2 among other business. My gripe is with pretend airlines who are unable to provide the level of safety oversight a passenger is entitled to expect from a real airline.)

toon22

12th Nov 2014, 22:43

Cyrano,
I couldn't agree more. It's a scandal that such operations can exist under the nose of the IAA/CAAand EASA. The relatives of those that perished in Cork have yet to see any form of recompense for their loss and still these 'operatirs' fly on.

rob39

17th Feb 2015, 20:15

Are Citywing opening Blackpool flights again?? Noticed flights are bookable from April

SealinkBF

17th Feb 2015, 20:55

Yes - Blackpool Airport is open(ing) again.

Rivet Joint

17th Feb 2015, 21:16

How odd? A business airline using outdated equipment, where shall we operate from? What about that seaside town airport that is closed?:ugh:

EK77WNCL

17th Feb 2015, 21:54

It was one of their biggest markets...

rob39

27th Apr 2015, 17:47

VAA117 OK-ASA flying LPL-IOM this evening, have Citywing started a LPL flight instead of BLK??? or just a shuttle flight

AndyH52

27th Apr 2015, 18:34

For much of the last week they have positioned the aircraft BLK-LPL, bussed outbound Blackpool pax down and flown them out of Liverpool. Inbound flights appear to operate into Blackpool as 'normal'.

Cozy F

27th Apr 2015, 21:23

That all sounds sensible - and cost-effective.....! :ugh:

rob39

28th Apr 2015, 19:24

Madness :confused: :ugh:

litefoot1

29th Apr 2015, 08:42

Wait, what? Have I missed something? I can't find any info about the Citywing flights departing from Liverpool instead of Blackpool.

Have I misunderstood?

litefoot1

29th Apr 2015, 09:21

Ah, I see: Liverpool trek for Blackpool airport passengers - Blackpool Gazette (http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/business/local-business/liverpool-trek-for-blackpool-airport-passengers-1-7234524)

rob39

23rd Oct 2015, 16:38

Photo: OK-RDA (CN: 861813) Let L-410UVP-E9 Turbolet by Robert Kolek - lojza Photoid:8116204 - JetPhotos.Net (http://www.jetphotos.net/photo/8116204)

Just clicked on the IOM-GLO flight OK-RDA on FR24 and this was the picture of the aircraft their flying in lol :eek:

rob39

22nd Jan 2016, 19:04

Spreading their wings,

CityWing to launch route between Isle of Man and Derry - Isle of Man Today (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/citywing-to-launch-route-between-isle-of-man-and-derry-1-7595799)

BAladdy

23rd Jan 2016, 17:38

Citywing will take over the Cardiff to Anglesey route from Monday. Believe this is a route that Citywing have served before.

planedrive

23rd Jan 2016, 18:56

Cardiff-Anglesey will remain OPERATED by North flying, who have been flying the route since Links air had their certificate revoked earlier last year. Only difference is that a travel agent called 'Citywing' (ex-manx2)will sell tickets on the route. Hopefully this will be made clear to customers when purchasing tickets although having experienced other 'Citywing/manx2' flight I won't hold my breath.

litefoot1

24th Jan 2016, 08:35

Citywing will take over the Cardiff to Anglesey route from Monday. Believe this is a route that Citywing have served before.

Yep, I flew with Citywing on that route a few years back. They operated the route before Links Air took over.

rob39

24th Jan 2016, 15:19

Citywing wet leased linksair aircraft (as a ticket agent) before links tendered for the route independently. Can't think if Citywing's wet leased lets, Do228 or metro's previously flew the route.

planedrive

24th Jan 2016, 16:49

They operated the route before Links Air took over.

No they didn't. Citywing aren't an airline so they haven't operated the route before. However both ticket sellers 'Manx2' and 'Citywing' have sold tickets on the route before with it being operated by van air europe, links air and flightline amongst others.

Personally I'd be very wary of booking with this seller as you could be palmed off onto any of their operators aircraft and you really don't know what you're going to get.

rob39

24th Jan 2016, 17:09

My experience of Citywing has generally been good and I know a couple of the pilots (vanair) who are very professional in their job and know that their aircraft are well maintained back in Brno

mathers_wales_uk

24th Jan 2016, 19:35

History of Intra-Wales route

Highland Airways - Jetstream 31
Highland Airways entered administration and contract was placed under tender.

Manx2.com/FLM Aviation - Dornier 228
After the aircraft incident Manx2.com changed their branding to Citywing

Citywing/FLM Aviation - Dornier 228
FLM entered administration and recalled their aircraft to Keel.

Citywing/LinksAir - Jetstream 31
Operated the route until the end of the tender

LinksAir - Jetstream 31
Operated the route until their license got revoked end of 2015. Since then the route has been operated by several airlines & types. DragonFly Aviation - Beech 200, NorthFlying - Metroliner III, FlyWales - Beech 200 & Van Air Europe - Let 410

As of tomorrow the route will revert to Citywing operated by FlyingNorth - Metroliner III

davidjohnson6

24th Jan 2016, 21:23

Perhaps someone high up in the Welsh Govt might realise that hiring tiddly planes from tiny airlines to transport very small numbers of passengers at a very high subsidy per pax is perhaps not sustainable in the long term ?

toon22

24th Jan 2016, 21:33

God forbid that there would be an accident as in Cork. No CAA regulated AOC holder to go after -just try your luck with a 'ticket provider' or some unheard of airline based wherever. It's frankly amazing the Welsh government allows this situation to continue.

planedrive

24th Jan 2016, 21:58

Seeing as this set up is explicitly prohibited by the UK CAA and wouldn't be allowed in the UK it does surprise me that just by being based in the Isle of Man they are allowed to get away with it, especially selling tickets on routes solely inside the United Kingdom.

Knowing people involved in the Cork accident and then reading further about it when the report came out, it shocks me even more that this sham 'airline' hasn't been shut down. I'm sure Van Air and their counterparts are all very reputable airlines but operating old, small aeroplanes on the opposite side of Europe to their maintenance bases with differing and sometimes conflicting instructions from their company and the ticket seller was a contributing factor in the Cork incident. I would hate for that to happen again.

Personally, I wouldn't be booking myself or any of my family through Citywing and I wish they would be a bit more open about the actual operation they are running.

runway30

24th Jan 2016, 22:52

PSO contracts have to be awarded to a 'European Air Carrier'. The Welsh Government cannot refuse to award a contract to a 'European Air Carrier' just because they choose to use a ticket seller called Citywing.

toon22

24th Jan 2016, 23:21

They don't have to accept the lowest tender either.
The Welsh government are already forking out millions to subsidise a train - complete with restaurant car - from Holyhead to Cardiff to give access from North Wales to the capital - why do both this and the PSO?

runway30

24th Jan 2016, 23:40

Different markets. Most of the passengers who fly would drive if the air service wasn't available.

AdamThePassenger

25th Jan 2016, 01:22

I am confused now, who has been awarded the new tender, Citywing or North Flying? If Citywing can't be awarded the tender because they are not an airline (or even an EU company for that matter) did Links Air hold the tender before the winter 2014 renewal and just chose to use Citywing as a ticket seller? I am very much in 2 minds about Citywing, I have flown with them VLY-CWL before with Links Air and everything was great, but equally having watched the Air Crash Investigations episode about *that* Belfast to Cork flight there is something unnerving about their operation. Having said that, Links Air must have done something wrong to have their AOC suspended what with the landing gear failures and all.

Adam :)

runway30

25th Jan 2016, 08:27

An interim report published by the Public Accounts Committee of the National Assembly of Wales in July 2014 described the arrangement as a consortium bid with the two companies 'joint signatories' to the contract. The tender documents published for the most recent contract award specified that the bidder should be a licensed air carrier.

litefoot1

25th Jan 2016, 08:29

No they didn't. Citywing aren't an airline so they haven't operated the route before. However both ticket sellers 'Manx2' and 'Citywing' have sold tickets on the route before with it being operated by van air europe, links air and flightline amongst others.

Personally I'd be very wary of booking with this seller as you could be palmed off onto any of their operators aircraft and you really don't know what you're going to get.

I stand corrected, yes it was Van Air Europe. I bought the tickets from the Citywing website.

Cyrano

25th Jan 2016, 21:29

Manx2.com/FLM Aviation - Dornier 228
After the aircraft incident Manx2.com changed their branding to Citywing
[B]

By "incident" you're referring to the fatal crash in Cork which killed six people and for which a significant causal factor was the gross operational negligence and incompetence of Manx2 and their subcontractor?

That was quite an "incident". Remedial action: change the name.:rolleyes:

runway30

25th Jan 2016, 21:47

I think this is one of the scandals of the offshore ticket seller. It is easy to leave any potential liabilities with the old company and restart operations the following day in a new company. You cannot do that with a company that holds a licence.

Xavi22

19th Nov 2016, 19:48

Does anybody have any revenue or profit figures of citywing? Are they profitable?
Just wondering how you can offer one way tickets for 20 or 50 GBP with an 19-seater LET.

Musket90

19th Nov 2016, 20:19

Aren't Citywing just a ticket agency with flights operated by Van Air Europe. So not sure how revenue and profits are shown for this arrangement.

Xavi22

19th Nov 2016, 20:54

Yes, but they are two different companies and I guess Van Air Europe gets a fixed amount from Citywing for operating the flights and Citywing gets the money for the sold tickets. So Citywing can determine the ticket prices.

lfc84

23rd Feb 2017, 10:37

citywing belfast has just landed ............

Told to shut down in position by the iom caa !

Fire service at aircraft passengers being bussed to terminal runway closed.

Never heard that .. " from iom caa shut down in position !"

q) egtt/qfalc/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5405n00437w005
b) from: 17/02/23 10:00c) to: 17/02/23 13:00 est

e) aerodrome closed due blocked runway

virginblue

23rd Feb 2017, 11:40

From Citywings twitter:

Our service between @Cardiff_Airport and @rafvalley is cancelled due to the weather. Please contact us if you have a reservation. Jamie.
54 minutes ago

@JennytheM Hi Jenny, all flights to and from the IOM with @Fly_Citywing are cancelled for today. Apologies, Jamie.

Some BE flights also cancelled. BA and U2 not cancelled yet.

lfc84

23rd Feb 2017, 22:03

23rd February 2017

STATEMENT ON INCIDENT ON THE 23rd OF FEBRUARY AND FLIGHT UPDATES FOR THE 24th OF FEBRUARY

Citywing can confirm that Van Air-operated flight 502 took off from the Isle of Man destined for Belfast on Thursday morning but returned due to deteriorating weather conditions in Northern Ireland.

Citywing have been advised by Van Air that the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has requested to speak with Van Air following the incident. Until such discussions take place, hopefully within the next 24-48 hours, the UK CAA has asked Van Air to stop flying. Unfortunately this means that all Citywing flights will be affected until further notice.

David Buck, Managing Director of Citywing said, “Passenger safety has to be the first priority and all such incidents are rightly investigated as a matter of routine. We are working with the flight operator Van Air and relevant authorities to resolve the situation as soon as possible.

Due to this operational disruption Van Air has chartered in a Stansted based Titan Airways 737 to operate the following flights.

V9514 IOM-BELFAST STD1400 STA1430 to accommodate all Isle of Man to Belfast passengers for the day.

V9515 BELFAST-IOM STD1510 STA1540 to accommodate all Belfast to Isle of Man passengers for the day.

V9814 IOM-NEWCASTLE STD1620 STA1655 to accommodate all Isle of Man to Newcastle, Isle of Man to Glasgow and all Isle of Man to Blackpool passengers. Passengers for Glasgow and Blackpool will be provided with surface transport to their destination.

“We apologise in advance for the disruption this will cause to travel plans. We will do our best to keep passengers informed and would ask for your patience and understanding as we deal with this difficult situation at short notice.”

In the first instance this only affects flights for the 24th of February. Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers but this may take time so we request your patience and understanding. If you have an urgent question please contact our Reservations on tel no: 0871 200 0440 who will be available between 0900 and 1700.

ENDS

NOTES TO EDITORS:
Citywing Aviation Services Ltd, “Citywing”, is an Isle of Man-based company arranging air services from the Isle of Man to Belfast, Blackpool, Glasgow, Newcastle, Gloucester and Jersey. Citywing and its partners employ 50 staff on the Island and carry in excess of 70,000 passengers per year.

Issued by Citywing.

Martin Norbury
Isle of Man Advertising and Public Relations Limited Tel: (01624) 620440

Wycombe

23rd Feb 2017, 22:38

Van Air has chartered in a Stansted based Titan Airways 737

That's not going to be cheap.

One can only imagine the conversation between the operator and the ticket seller after today's incident.

01475

24th Feb 2017, 00:48

I wonder if we'll be starting a "Manx3" thread.

AdamThePassenger

24th Feb 2017, 04:42

Citywing themselves will probably be ok, but methinks NorthFlying metroliners may well be about to return in numbers :P

Without Citywing, Gloucestershire, Anglesey and Blackpool airports would have no scheduled commercial traffic. After the losses of Plymouth, Sheffield, Manston, Cambridge, Oxford, Sligo, Galway and Waterford recently, the UK/IE regional airport scene is becoming a bit depressing. DTV's struggles are well documented, I suspect Prestwick will be freight only within 10 years, Derry would be in real trouble if it was not so politically sensitive, Dundee is just miserable after the Amsterdam debacle and Humberside would likely cease to exist without Eastern, who are acting in a deeply unsettling way with regards to crew.

I would love to see Citywing start using Eastern J41s, but Eastern seem intent on forcing out all of their staff so is unlikely to happen.

I can't imagine Cardiff will continue to subsidise Anglesey flights forever, and if CItywing disappear, I am struggling to think of anyone else who would operate the flights.

El Bunto

24th Feb 2017, 07:12

but methinks NorthFlying metroliners may well be about to return in numbers Metro OY-NPE just landing at Ronaldsway now...

planedrive

24th Feb 2017, 09:51

Hopefully this incident will finally make the authorities take note and close down this sham of an operation. Crazy that it's been allowed to continue after the Manx2 crash.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 11:08

And which Regulation are you going to use to close them down?

HeartyMeatballs

24th Feb 2017, 11:13

Citywing are not an airline so I can't see how they'll ever operate J41s. The L410 is sturdy and in a good operator's hands will provide a safe, reliable service. It's ideally suited for flying around the Irish Sea. The only time we could see this is if they get Eastern to do some flying in the same wad that Cityflyer sub some flying to T3.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 11:19

Citywing is not an airline so they will never operate anything!

toon22

24th Feb 2017, 11:56

It's good to see the CAA taking decisive action by effectively grounding Van Air. I cannot understand how a 'virtual' airline can continue to sell tickets. If, god forbid there had been an accident yesterday, would those affected have been able to go to Citywing? Of course not! They would have been referred to Van Air in Brno - have you seen their website? You would have thought after the Manx2 debacle, a regulation would have been imposed such that it would be impossible to sell flights/tickets as an airline without an AOC. As the relatives of those tragically killed in Cork know only too well, there is a glaring regulatory loophole here and its high time is was closed. BTW, who is liable for EU261 payments for today's disrupted passengers? Good luck with that one.

LGS6753

24th Feb 2017, 12:40

Citywing can confirm that Van Air-operated flight 502 took off from the Isle of Man destined for Belfast on Thursday morning but returned due to deteriorating weather conditions in Northern Ireland.

Citywing have been advised by Van Air that the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has requested to speak with Van Air following the incident.

As is so often the case, this statement raises more questions than answers. The incident described above is nothing unusual, so what prompted the CAA's interest?

rhutch28

24th Feb 2017, 12:51

Maybe there is more about this they are not telling us

AdamThePassenger

24th Feb 2017, 13:31

Citywing are not an airline so I can't see how they'll ever operate J41s. The L410 is sturdy and in a good operator's hands will provide a safe, reliable service. It's ideally suited for flying around the Irish Sea.

Citywing is not an airline so they will never operate anything

I never said operate, I said use, in the same way they currently use V9 L410s. Would be some rare positive news for Eastern.

The only time we could see this is if they get Eastern to do some flying in the same wad that Cityflyer sub some flying to T3.

This is exactly what I mean.

As is so often the case, this statement raises more questions than answers. The incident described above is nothing unusual, so what prompted the CAA's interest?

*SPECULATION* I would guess the CAA are concerned because the V9 captain made the decision to take off in weather conditions dangerous enough to warrant cancellation of the flight.

El Bunto

24th Feb 2017, 13:59

The J41s are over 19 seats so would move Citywing out of the current non-ATOL category in which they comfortably reside. Unless they block most of the cabin, as the test is 'seats available to passengers'. Alternatively they could arrange transport by hot-air balloon or airship, without any seating restrictions...

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 14:15

The whole point of this business model is that the ticket seller requires neither an Operating Licence or an ATOL. If they want to charter aircraft with greater capacity than 19 seats then they need one or the other.

virginblue

24th Feb 2017, 14:16

I think there is a reason why Citywings cooperates with a Czech outfit operating the LET410 and not someone more home-grown/swanky..... I can see all the complaints here as soon as Citywing signs a different partner airlines and as a result doubles the fares...

While I can understand that many on the rock would like to see a true Manx airline operating services, I have some difficulties understanding the hostility towards Citywing/Van Air. As I see it we have a foreign airline operating services from IOM using the Citywing brand for marketing purposes. It is not really a new concept and as long as the airline meets the regulatory standards, so be it.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 14:17

Sorry El Bunto, you had covered that point.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 14:21

virginblue, if the reality is what you describe then it would be acceptable. However the reality is someone setting up an airline who stated that they didn't want to be regulated. That lack of financial/operational oversight can kill passengers.

toon22

24th Feb 2017, 14:26

The 'hostility' towards Citywing exists because it exploits a loophole in regulation. They have to satisfy none of the rules that apply to Eastern et al in regards respect of an AOC. They avoid ATOL rules because of aircraft size. I remember on the Manx2 website, they boasted they could operate in weather conditions that bigger aircraft couldn't. It was precisely that 'have a go' approach that contributed to the accident in Cork, and yesterday's incident has worryingly similar features.

planedrive

24th Feb 2017, 14:27

@Virginblue. No hostility towards Van Air whatsoever. They are a legitimate company operating planes in accordance with their license as governed by the Bulgarian CAA.

What people have an issue with is the set up employed by Manx2/Citywing, whereby they pretend to be an airline to anyone who will buy tickets with them until something goes wrong (i.e. Cork crash) where suddenly it was nothing to do with them and everything needed to be referred to Flightline - the airline that actually operated the service. They are just a ticket seller and nothing else. It's akin to buying a ticket from expedia/onthebeach/trivago or whoever but the aircraft also turning up in their colours and everything branded as though they were a legitimate AOC holder.

Incidentally, as far as I know, this exact set up (Virtual Airline) is banned by the UK CAA due to the exact issues which people have raised on this thread which is why they are only able to operate out of the Isle of Man.

Edit: Sorry Toon22 we were obviously typing the same at the same time!

lfc84

24th Feb 2017, 14:50

They chartered a Titan 737 to operate flights today.

Does that now require an ATOL ??

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 14:54

lfc, that is the exact thought that was going through my mind.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 14:57

However, they were very careful to say that Van Air had chartered it and not them.

toon22

24th Feb 2017, 15:09

Planedrive. Indeed we were! You make an interesting point about operations from the Isle of Man. I assume the CAA were able to intervene because the flight in question was destined for a U.K. airport.

Wycombe

24th Feb 2017, 15:09

That's presumably because Van Air are paying (or should be!)

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 15:29

Can Van Air really afford to charter in a Titan 737 on what Citywing are paying them?

virginblue

24th Feb 2017, 15:33

Sure, I see your point. If there are shortcomings in Van Air's operation, I would be the first to demand their grounding. But most arguments I have read here do not relate to their operation, but to the regulatory framework they operate in (and which was not created by them, but by someone else).

My understanding is that they simply invoke the same rights, for example, bmi regional invokes to operate domestic flights in Germany or Eastern to offer domestic flights in France. I appreciate that they are an Eastern European outfit, but this certainly should be no reason to discredit them per se.

If rules for 19seaters are different from those for larger aircraft, that certainly is something to blame the regulator for - if these rules pose a risk (out of interest - I presume that Loganair operates the DHC6 under the same set of rules?).

As for misleading the public - that happens all the time with large airlines having flights operated by regional affiliates or with other airlines franchising their brand. As soon as something goes wrong, they refer the customer to the small print and insist that while all the branding says airline "A", it indeed is airline "B". It is annoying, but not something Citywing has invented.

Re the "Virtual Airline" aspect - it appears to me that this comes down to a lack of enforcement or regulation, for whatever reason, by Tynwald. The T&C explicitly state that...

"Please note that these Citywing Terms and Conditions of Carriage do not apply to scheduled services between Cardiff and Anglesey which are governed by the Terms and Conditions of Carriage of Van Air Europe, a.s"

...so apparently in Wales they do not get away with it.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 15:51

virginblue

24th Feb 2017, 16:02

Interesting point, by the way. As they are also selling tickets in England and Scotland for their departure airports there, one has to wonder why the rules are different just for Wales. I suppose that for EU wide PSO-tenders, only airlines can apply which rules Citywing out as the holder of the PSO contract.

AirGuru

24th Feb 2017, 16:08

Let's put it this way. For the IOM services Citywing sells the tickets and contracts an air carrier, for the Cardiff/Anglesey service Van Air is the carrier contracted by the Welsh Government and Van Air then contract Citywing to sell the tickets.

...so apparently in Wales they do not get away with it.

Are you sure this is correct ? I thought Citywing were in contract with the WG, with Citywing choosing to adopt Van Air for the route.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 16:10

The contract specified European air carriers, Citywing is not a European air carrier.

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 16:13

virginblue, you are correct, it is the PSO contract that makes the difference. For their other routes in the U.K. unfortunately they can still operate as a virtual airline.

Harry Wayfarers

24th Feb 2017, 19:43

To divert back to their departure airport (IOM) where the wind was 42kts gusting 56kts 40 degrees off a wet runway I dread to imagine what the wind was like at their destination airport that caused them to divert back and what the **** were they thinking of even flying in such weather conditions!

Somewhat amusing that IOM needed to declare the runway closed after they landed ... You mean there were other idiots flying in this weather? :)

runway30

24th Feb 2017, 19:50

The issue with this operation is whether the crews come under pressure from the ticket seller to fly when they shouldn't.

El Bunto

24th Feb 2017, 21:22

L410 OK-UBA did the run down from Glasgow this afternoon. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/okuba#c8f0a30 No movement of OK-LAZ though.

Harry Wayfarers

24th Feb 2017, 21:38

The issue with this operation is whether the crews come under pressure from the ticket seller to fly when they shouldn't.

It's called "Commercial Pressure" and it doesn't necessarily exist between a paper airline and an aircraft operator, during my airline career I worked for some 11 aircraft operators and, whilst illegal, commercial pressure is pretty much commonplace.

Often it will be from the commercial department, after all their primary concern is to sell flights with bums on seats, and often they don't like to hear of operational problems such as a kaput weather radar and en-route thunderstorms and the fact that the commercial department, in this instance, may be merely a ticket seller doesn't change that it is commercial putting pressure upon the crew and particularly with regards to exercising commander's discretion.

That said, and particularly in this day and age whereas an increased degree of commercial decision making has been placed upon the aircraft commander, in lieu of professional trained and qualified staff in an operations/dispatch department, often commercial pressure is self inflicted by the crew member(s) when, perhaps, they may see writing on the wall whilst they need to feed their spouse and kids, pay the mortgage etc.

The point here is not to blame it upon a paper airline scenario, commercial pressure is commonplace and if it does exist in Citywing then it is not unique to their style of operation.

gkmeech

25th Feb 2017, 11:38

Harry Wayfarers quoted 'Somewhat amusing that IOM needed to declare the runway closed after they landed ... You mean there were other idiots flying in this weather?'

The CAA issued an Immediate Stop, therefore the aircraft was not permitted to taxi to the terminal, passengers disembarked on the runway. The authorities were hardly going to leave the runway open.

judge11

25th Feb 2017, 14:29

'The issue with this operation is whether the crews come under pressure from the ticket seller to fly when they shouldn't. '

That is the sixtyfour thousand dollar question and one would need to see the contract between Citywing and Van Air. So the question is - in the event of a diversion, who picks up the tab?

RW35 at BFS was available as was RW31 at PIK - the captain elected to return to IOM in the face of deteriorating weather (specifically wind) where he would have known that the wind was outside xwind limits for landing and taxiing limits for his aircraft.

davidjohnson6

25th Feb 2017, 14:39

one would need to see the contract between Citywing and Van Air. So the question is - in the event of a diversion, who picks up the tab?
When two companies have an ongoing commercial relationship and termination would mean severe problems for at least one of the companies, then what is written on paper doesn't always reflect the true position between the two companies; an off-the-record verbal understanding may differ markedly from what is written on paper

judge11

25th Feb 2017, 14:46

Not in court.

Harry Wayfarers

25th Feb 2017, 18:25

RW35 at BFS was available as was RW31 at PIK - the captain elected to return to IOM in the face of deteriorating weather (specifically wind) where he would have known that the wind was outside xwind limits for landing and taxiing limits for his aircraft.

And RWY29 at Machrihanish (depending upon the time of day).

One might speculate that the crew may have been going out of hours thus couldn't remain on duty if diverting away from a crew base, I worked for one operator where, quite literally, putting crew in (other than scheduled) hotel accommodation was a "no, no", perhaps the crew wanted to be at home rather than stuck away somewhere but the one point that interests me ... Why did they ever depart IOM in the first instance?

lfc84

25th Feb 2017, 21:56

Van Air still grounded:

25 February 2017

FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 26 FEBRUARY 2017 ONWARDS update 25/02/17 14:30

Citywing are now able to confirm flights details for Sunday 26 February and Monday 27 February.

Sunday 26 February.
Sunday 26 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Sunday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1450, arriving in Belfast at 1520. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1550 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1620. All passengers affected will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.

Sunday 26 February - Glasgow / Newcastle
The Titan Airways aircraft will also operate a combined flight for the Isle of Man passengers booked to fly to Glasgow and Newcastle, which will route via both airports. The flight is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1700, arriving in Glasgow at 1745. It will then depart Glasgow at 1825, arriving Newcastle at 1905. It will depart from Newcastle at 1940, arriving in the Isle of Man at 2015.

Sunday 26 February - Gloucester
Unfortunately there are no options for a Gloucester flight, instead, Isle of Man passengers will be transferred to a flight to Cardiff operated by North Flying, departing the Isle of Man at 1820 arriving at 1915. There will be road transport available to Gloucester. For the Gloucester to Isle of Man passengers unfortunately we will not have any options on Sunday but can offer the alternative of flying from Liverpool to the Isle of Man on Monday.

Sunday 26 February – Blackpool
Blackpool flights will be according to schedule and will be operated by North Flying.

Monday 27 February
Monday 27 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Monday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1110, arriving in Belfast at 1140. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1220 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1250. All passengers will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.

Monday 27 February – Blackpool / Glasgow / Gloucester
Unfortunately there are fewer aircraft options for Monday so we have had to work out a way to accommodate passengers travelling to and from the Isle of Man as best as possible. With this in mind we have planned one flight from the Isle of Man to Liverpool using the Titan Airways Boeing 737 aircraft. This flight is for all Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester passengers and is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1330, arriving in Liverpool at 1410. Surface transport to the various destinations will be arranged. For all passengers from Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester, surface transport will be arranged to Liverpool to catch the flight to the Isle of Man which is scheduled to depart at 1450, arriving in the Isle of Man at 1530.

lfc84

25th Feb 2017, 22:00

On another forum it is reported that OK-LAZ will depart to Liège at 0930 on Sunday 26/2/17 as VAA930P

Dufo

25th Feb 2017, 22:19

So loganair operating 37 years old dash 6 on the beach in scotland is ok but l410 is not just because of.. ??

2011 metro crash in southern ireland had nothing to do with vanair.

01475

25th Feb 2017, 22:55

I don't think anyone ever suggested there was a problem with the aircraft, rather a problem with the operator? I feel suspicious of the reaction though. If a Ryanair pilot did something stupid would they have grounded Ryanair? Of course they wouldn't have...

If things don't go Van Air's way I wonder who the new operator will be? There's not a huge number of options. Transaviabaltika? (Suggested only half in jest...)

Harry Wayfarers

26th Feb 2017, 00:19

I feel suspicious of the reaction though. If a Ryanair pilot did something stupid would they have grounded Ryanair? Of course they wouldn't have

A major league player, such as Ryanair, is a very different scenario to, perhaps, an ACMI tin pot operator operator and the two cannot be compared.

The CAA aren't preventing Citywing from continuing, or entering in to, agreements with other operators so it would appear that they are after Van Air as opposed to Citywing and I'm not surprised if the reports are true, that they departed IOM whilst their destination, apparently, was outside limits, they tried a couple of approaches including a bounce off the runway and with other alternates available they elected to return to IOM which was also outside limits.

Out of curiosity what was the wind direction and speed at BHD at the time ... because if it was 300 there also it would have been literally across the runway!

Out of curiosi

El Bunto

26th Feb 2017, 09:46

Ryanair or Van Air, scale doesn't matter; both operate under the same category of AOC and both should be treated the same. But of course they won't be, since one has near-infinite funds to lawyer-up and the other just has to do as it's told.

Anyway, L410 OK-LAZ departed Ronaldsway at 10:30 this morning call-sign VAA930P, heading south-east presumably on a ferry flight. I wouldn't blame them if they didn't come back.

EGAC is Better

26th Feb 2017, 11:05

Out of curiosity what was the wind direction and speed at BHD at the time ... because if it was 300 there also it would have been literally across the runway!

Out of curiosi

It was bad, as forecast.

I've found the info below which seems about right from what I recall at the time. Reading from bottom up, every 30 mins from 0720.

Quick summary of keys info. Wind was average approx 310 degrees betwern 0750 and 1120. Never less than 23kts and gusting at least 10kts more. Worst at 0820; 310@29G46kts.

I'm pretty sure a BA A319 diverted to BFS around the time VanAir were due.

SA 23/02/2017 11:50->
METAR EGAC 231150Z 32020G33KT 9999 VCSH FEW018 SCT022 06/02
Q0993=
SA 23/02/2017 11:20->
METAR EGAC 231120Z 32022G39KT 9999 -SHRA FEW020 SCT025 06/02
Q0992=
SA 23/02/2017 10:50->
METAR EGAC 231050Z 31020G31KT 9999 VCSH FEW010 BKN014 06/02
Q0990=
SA 23/02/2017 10:20->
METAR EGAC 231020Z 31021G34KT 9999 VCSH FEW010 BKN014 05/03
Q0989=
SA 23/02/2017 09:50->
METAR EGAC 230950Z 31023G38KT 9999 -SHRA FEW010 BKN014 05/02
Q0988=
SA 23/02/2017 09:20->
METAR EGAC 230920Z 31023G40KT 9999 -RADZ FEW010 BKN014 04/02
Q0986=
SA 23/02/2017 08:50->
METAR EGAC 230850Z 31025G42KT 9999 -RADZ FEW010 BKN014 04/02
Q0983=
SA 23/02/2017 08:20->
METAR EGAC 230820Z 31029G46KT 9999 -SHRA FEW009 BKN012 03/01
Q0981=
SA 23/02/2017 07:50->
METAR EGAC 230750Z 30025G40KT 9999 -RADZ FEW009 BKN011 05/03
Q0977=
SA 23/02/2017 07:20->
METAR EGAC 230720Z 28006KT 3500 BR FEW009 BKN012 06/05 Q0976=

lfc84

26th Feb 2017, 11:05

Ryanair or Van Air, scale doesn't matter; both operate under the same category of AOC and both should be treated the same. But of course they won't be, since one has near-infinite funds to lawyer-up and the other just has to do as it's told.

Anyway, L410 OK-LAZ departed Ronaldsway at 10:30 this morning call-sign VAA930P, heading south-east presumably on a ferry flight. I wouldn't blame them if they didn't come back.

It's gone to liege.

Hermite

26th Feb 2017, 11:10

What about the other Van Air a/c? Are they leaving as well?

virginblue

26th Feb 2017, 13:51

Truth of the matter is that if Van Air disappears from the island, so will 50 per cent of the airport's destinations - all that will remain is DUB, LCY, LGW, BRS, LPL, BHX and MAN. And realistically, destinations like LCY, BRS and BHX do not look like a given. The airprt could very well be down to a core network of LGW, MAN, LPL and DUB some point in the future.

I think it is fanciful to believe that another airline will simply show up and continue the routes Van Air has flown at the fares they have offered. While 10 or 15 years ago there were dozens of airlines with small commuter aircraft around, this nowadays is an almost extinct species. While almost anywhere else it means driving for quite a distance to catch a flight with the big boys from a big airport, in the case of IoM it means, well, swimming, I suppose.

DC9_10

26th Feb 2017, 14:00

Would Loganair or Eastern be a good fit for replacement services should Citywing go to the wall. Just a guess however Logan could maybe do Glasgow and Belfast with Eastern at Newcastle. Gloucester and Jersey with Aurigny maybe.

lfc84

26th Feb 2017, 14:26

would rather swim than use them

DC9_10

26th Feb 2017, 14:36

Loganairs former sister company Manx Airlines served the Isle of Man for many years. Would think Loganair would be great for the island.

inOban

26th Feb 2017, 14:39

Well the residents of NW Scotland, Orkney and Shetland seem to get by without swimming. And Doris was little more than a fresh breeze to them. They get worse several times every winter.

DC9_10

26th Feb 2017, 14:56

Used to love going to Douglas for a day trip for £18 return on I'D90 staffy on Manx. Had breakfast in the lounge at Manchester and always ended up in Quids Inn in the afternoon. If Linda Brotherstone or Mary Stott were working the flight we always came of with miniatures and mixers. Great times with Manx.

virginblue

26th Feb 2017, 15:08

Well, the last time Loganair gave BLK and BHD a try, it lasted for just 10 weeks,

FLYBE SERVICE TO ISLE OF MAN AND BLACKPOOL LASTS JUST TEN WEEKS (http://www.lisburntoday.co.uk/lifestyle/flybe-service-to-isle-of-man-and-blackpool-lasts-just-ten-weeks-1-1642694/amp)

so I doubt they will be inclined to return unless economics have changed dramatically. With Vanair potentially gone, they might change indeed - however, I seem to remember constant bickering elsewhere about the high fares Loganair charges on non-PSO routes (and for that matter, even on PSO routes). And the same applies to Eastern. So big question - would folks be willing to fork out considerably more money than now to get to BLK, NCL, GLO, BHD or would they rather take the ferry or one of the lager carriers to BRS, LPL, DUB or MAN?

To me, the Citywing/Vanair concept always looked like one of the last survivors of regional air transport - but realistically on life-support as it only worked through this somewhat creative Czech/Manx setup.

runway30

26th Feb 2017, 15:14

Manx2/Citywing have been through a lot of airlines and they are still here. Even if Citywing disappeared, it is likely that they would reappear the following day as Manxwing3.

lfc84

26th Feb 2017, 15:44

UPDATED: Disruption for Blackpool passengers as flight operator grounded - Blackpool Gazette (http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/updated-disruption-for-blackpool-passengers-as-flight-operator-grounded-1-8409455)

A UK CAA spokesperson said: “The UK Civil Aviation Authority has suspended Czech-registered operator Van Air’s permission to fly in the UK. "This follows an incident involving a Van Air aircraft at Isle of Man Airport on February 23. "The incident is being investigated by the Czech civil aviation authorities, who have regulatory oversight of Van Air. "

runway30

26th Feb 2017, 16:06

I've learned something new. I presumed that they needed permission to fly from the IOM but as an EU carrier, not in the U.K.

Now we have an interesting situation. An IOM ticket seller selling seats on a 737 in the U.K. without an Operating Licence or an ATOL. Standby, I'm just off to start runway30 airlines..................

toon22

26th Feb 2017, 18:22

Am I missing something?
There can hardly be more than a dozen passengers on each flight tomorrow. If they have all the passengers details, why not just reprotect onto BE or EZY, especially if they're flying them to Liverpool. In my experience Titan are very expensive for short sectors, with a high 'call out' charge but relatively low block hour rate. Something else in play?

runway30

26th Feb 2017, 18:33

I suspect that Citywing will have a claim against Van Air for chartering replacement aircraft. Whether they will have the money to pay is a different issue............

HeartyMeatballs

26th Feb 2017, 21:42

Well, they were quick to point out that they were just a 'ticket seller' when they had a deadly accident so I'm no sure what kind of claim they will have if any at all?

EI-BUD

26th Feb 2017, 22:27

This is a sad day for Citywing. They have stuck with it in the IOM for quite a few years now. They have differentiated with small aircraft at high frequency on route that otherwise would not be served or served very infrequently, this is in times when the IOM tourism scene has been in decline. There was no route to Scotland for a time and BLK which is a long standing route would not be operating if it were not for Citywing. Hopefully they can get things sorted out.

I wouldn't be convinced that they will be able to sustain 737s by Titan for long, whether or not Vanair will pay for it, the cost simply would be penal in relative terms and not sustainable for long irrespective of who is footing the bill...

runway30

26th Feb 2017, 22:31

Van Air didn't just turn up in the IOM and ask Citywing to sell tickets for them. The revenue risk lies with Citywing and Van Air will earn a definite amount of money for every flight. There will be a contract with notice periods and where there are notice periods, there will be penalties.

runway30

26th Feb 2017, 22:54

EI, I think the problem with this business model is that there is neither operational or financial regulation of the ticket seller. They can use commercial pressure to put operational pressure on the operating airline which leads to unsafe operations. Clearly having companies that only take revenue risk and companies that only take operational risk can work, Inclusive Tour companies and Charter Airlines have been operating like that for years but if both parties are regulated it provides a restraint against one of the parties closing down if an incident occurs and reappearing the following day under another name.

01475

26th Feb 2017, 23:21

Harry Wayfarers

27th Feb 2017, 02:03

Ryanair or Van Air, scale doesn't matter; both operate under the same category of AOC and both should be treated the same. But of course they won't be, since one has near-infinite funds to lawyer-up and the other just has to do as it's told.

El Bunto,
You seem to be suggesting that Van Air are being victimised, being bullied, simply because they don't have unlimited funds for lawyers to fight off such a case.

Excuse me but check the BHD weather actuals as posted on the previous page, the runway at BHD being 04/22, the best the winds were 20kts 80 degrees off the runway and the worst 46kts directly across the runway and in rain showers, from the crosswind limitations of the L410 I've read here I guess they departed IOM with an alternate that was within limits yet when push came to shove they didn't use that alternate!

The 'big boys', as well as the little ones, in UK just as an example, are regulated and regularly inspected by the appropriate authority, in this day and age operators have Quality Managers and the authority demand to see that systems are in place in the event of an irregularity taking place, in a way the operators are self regulating and the authority merely oversees that.

As a further example back in 89/90 there were a number of European operators operating domestic services in Australia, I can recall at least five UK operators of which, for one of them, I was managing their 2 x B737 operation.

As with Van Air in IOM and VLY, indeed in ESH with Brighton City Airways, they are operating away from their regulatory authority as we were in Australia but UK sent an inspector down to Australia to pay all us operators there a visit, when it came to our turn he telephoned me to give me notice, I met him at the airport, showed him around my office facility in my rented apartment before we went off to the local pub for dinner and a few beers.

On the other hand the UK authority find that they have something like a flying circus operating services around UK with seemingly no regulation, probably no Quality Manager in situ and I wonder if the Czech regulatory authority have ever been to IOM, VLY, ESH or wherever else these clowns may have been operating from and when they start bouncing aircraft off runways when other(s) are diverting I'd pull their ticket also.

I wouldn't blame them if they didn't come back.

And good riddance, they're bl00dy dangerous!

davidjohnson6

27th Feb 2017, 02:27

I guess a bigger question is what sort of balance the UK wants between regulation, local connectivity and entrepreneurs.
The big airlines need to be held to a very high standard. You can apply the same high standard to small operators - but the compliance cost usually makes the small operators go bankrupt one way or another. Furthermore entrepreneurs are discouraged by high regulatory costs. A major result is that places like Gloucester lose all scheduled service

Where does one draw the line, and which side of it is Citywing ?

runway30

27th Feb 2017, 09:19

I think the point Harry was making is that Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines.

Cyrano

27th Feb 2017, 11:37

I kind of want to agree with you... but so much flying is done by people other than those that sell the tickets, and a lot of it not for two-bit carriers either (Alitalia and Carpathair spring to mind...).

Obviously there's a different if the ticket seller doesn't actually operate any flights at all, but how much of a difference? And how would you regulate the ticket seller to remove any perceived weaknesses?

The difference in the case you cite is that both the marketing carrier and the operating carrier are real airlines, with real operational oversight subject to regulatory scrutiny. Citywing pretends to be an airline, in that if you go to their website and aren't familiar with the ins and outs of the business you'll think it's an airline.

How to regulate the ticket seller? I think that removing the loophole which allows ticket sellers for aircraft of 19 seats or less to be free of any CAA/ATOL oversight would be a good start. (That might also have saved the lives of the unfortunate passengers and crew who were killed in Citywing's previous incarnation Manx2, for which the accident report highlighted the extreme deficiencies in operational oversight on Manx2's part.)

V12

27th Feb 2017, 16:36

DJ6: "but the compliance cost usually makes the small operators go bankrupt one way or another."

You're right and that's right and fair.

I'd rather stay on the ground, or pay higher fares, than risk an operation that accepts marginality at every step. There's a reason why such operations exist on these little routes, but the travelling public cannot determine the difference.

Proper regulation should weed out the poor-compliers; it's not just survival of the fittest, it's survival of the safest. Who was looking out for the passengers interests on this flight?

It's a bummer when flights are grounded, especially if you just want to get home, but better to be on the ground wanting to be in the air, than in the air wishing you had never left the ground. Been there, done it, and never want to do it again.

lfc84

27th Feb 2017, 17:09

FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 28 and 29 FEBRUARY 2017
Citywing are now able to confirm flights details for Tuesday 28 and Wednesday 01March 2017.
We are currently updating our system so will try and contact passengers regarding flight changes once this is done.
Tuesday 28 February
Tuesday 28 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Saab 340 aircraft operated by Sprint Air at the following times:
V9 506 28 Feb departing Isle of Man at 1110 ( checkin 1010) arriving Belfast City 1145
V9 507 28 Feb departing Belfast City at 1210 (checkin 1110) arriving Isle of Man 1245
All passengers planned to go on other Belfast flights this day will be transferred onto the flight available.
Tuesday 28 February -Glasgow
The Glasgow flight will also be operated by the Sprintair Saab 340 :
V9 408 28 Feb departing Isle of Man 1500 (checkin 1400) arriving Glasgow 1540
V9 409 28 Feb departing Glasgow 1605 (checkin 1505) arriving Isle of Man 1655
All passengers planned to go on the morning Glasgow flights this day will be transferred onto the afternoon flight.
Tuesday 28 February – Gloucester
The Gloucester flight will similarly be operated by the Sprintair Saab 340 :
V9 610 28 Feb departing Isle of Man at 1725 (checkin 1625) arriving Gloucester at 1820 .
V9 611 28 Feb departing Gloucester at 1845 (checkin 1745) arriving Isle of Man 1940
All passengers planned to go on the morning Gloucester flights this day will be transferred onto the afternoon flight.
Tuesday 28 February – Blackpool
Unfortunately we have not been able to arrange any flights for Blackpool. All passengers will be rebooked onto the following day’s flight.
Wednesday 01 March
Wednesday 01 March -Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Saab 340 aircraft operated by Sprint Air at the following times:
V9 506 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1110 (checkin 1010) arriving Belfast City at 1145
V9 507 01 March departing Belfast City at 1210 ( checkin 1110 ) arriving at Isle of Man 1245
All passengers planned to go on other Belfast flights this day will be transferred onto the flight available.
Wednesday 01 March – Blackpool
Operated by Sprintair Saab 340
V9 116 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1540 ( checkin 1440) arriving at Blackpool 1610
V9 117 01 March departing Blackpool at 1635 (checkin 1535) arriving at Isle of Man at 1705
Wednesday 01 March – Gloucester
Operated by Sprintair Saab 340
V9 610 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1730 ( checkin 1630) arriving Gloucester at 1825
V9 611 01 March departing Gloucester at 1850 (checkin 1750) arriving at Isle of Man at 1940
Wednesday 01 March - Glasgow
Unfortunately we have not been able to arrange an aircraft for Glasgow and the flight will be cancelled.
These will be the only flights operated on these days. We will endeavour to contact all passengers to advise of them of these revised arrangements. For flights on the 2nd and 3rd of March we will put out our revised schedule soonest if required.
David Buck, Managing Director of Citywing said, “We apologise for the disruption this is causing to travel plans. We will do our best to keep passengers informed over the next few days. We know that the options available are far from ideal but we wanted to ensure where possible that we can provide an option for all passengers to reach their destinations. We are trying to contact all passengers but it is a huge task so we ask for your patience whilst we do so.”

HeartyMeatballs

27th Feb 2017, 17:11

They won't be missed. They won't have to be, as ManxWing will be along next week.

I heard NorthFlying on frequency last night so assumed they're doing the flying for them.

AirGuru

27th Feb 2017, 18:20

North Flying are doing CWL-VLY, with the Van Air LET parked on stand.

I hope this situation is resolved quickly, Citywing seems a bit of a sham of an operation itself and this loophole of having second rate 19 seat operators from the far reaches of Europe operating in the UK with seemingly unsafe operations is not something any of us should welcome.

The subsidy for the CWL-VLY is absolutely gigantic too ... Just saying. I'm sure Citywing/Van Air have made a killing out of the Welsh Government alone, nevermind elsewhere. Time to shut up shop.

lfc84

27th Feb 2017, 18:37

Titan reported as being tech but I read elsewhere that it has gone to STN

http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/citywing-anguish-as-crisis-plans-awry/

01475

27th Feb 2017, 19:26

Doubt they can afford for this to last much longer; must be costing them a packet.

At risk of being too radical... I wonder if ManxWing3 should set up as an... airline? History seems to be saying that these routes can be viable, but that the weak link is them not having any aeroplanes with which to operate them?

El Bunto

27th Feb 2017, 21:31

I'm not sure that bashing the Czech CAA for being 'lax' is any better than bashing Van Air. Both fall under the jurisdiction of EASA.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/international-cooperation/easa-by-country/countries/czech-republic

Just like North Flying ( Denmark ) and Sprint Air ( Poland ) and, uh, Titan ( UK )...
Titan reported as being tech but I read elsewhere that it has gone to STNNeeded for the overnight mail runs as usual.

Harry Wayfarers

1st Mar 2017, 06:30

Who writes their FLIGHT UPDATES cr@P? :)

FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 28 and 29 FEBRUARY 2017

rob39

7th Mar 2017, 22:51

sealegs

7th Mar 2017, 23:09

From Manx Radio - March 7
All options on table, says boss
The head of Citywing says all options are on the table after a week of disruption to flights to and from Ronaldsway.

Managing Director David Buck has apologised to passengers in the short term, and admitted it's time to think about the business model:

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 01:01

Real shame for the crew, I new some of the pilots and really nice guys, I did use their service on a few occasions for ferry flights, felt safe and secure at all times.
What was the exact reason for the licence to be suspended. Flew to Belfast could not land due to weather and return to the Isle??

rob39,

Van Air's AOC, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been suspended, indeed from what I've been reading the Czech authority don't really seem to care that one of their operators goes around trying to kill people!

If you read back in this thread what appears to have happened was they departed IOM destination BHD where the wind, at a minimum mean speed of 20kts, was 80 to 90 degrees, pretty much, straight across the runway in rain showers and, by all accounts, with it's narrow undercarriage the L410's x-wind limitations ain't all that.

Other(s) were diverting to BFS, other alternates, with better runway directions, such as PIK and Machrihanish were available but Van Air attempted at least one approach in to BHD during which they bounced off the runway before electing to return to IOM where, by then, the wind was 40 degrees off the runway, in rain showers, with a mean speed of 42kts and gusts of 56kts.

For reasons that I haven't read an explanation of, it would appear that UK CAA were present at IOM, perhaps in the tower, when the L410 landed, the wind was too strong even for it to taxi, the CAA insisted that it shut down and stay on the runway where apparently a fire truck or two were parked adjacent to shield the wings from the wind.

Then or later the UK CAA decided that Van Air are not to darken their skies again and have withdrawn their authority to operate in UK, the CAA don't normally take such action for a one-off offence and there remains the question what were the CAA doing in the IOM in the first instance!

goldeneye

8th Mar 2017, 10:16

Maybe some of these routes could be a target for the likes of Loganair or Eastern albeit with slightly larger aircraft.

Can see Glasgow and Belfast being a good fit with Loganair on something like GLA-IOM-BHD-IOM-GLA routing.

Not sure about Blackpool and Gloucestershire as seemed a bit of a niche operation.

virginblue

8th Mar 2017, 10:40

I think the point Harry was making is that Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines.

The quote below is directly lifted from the CAA website:

Within Europe much of the safety regulations are set by a European Commission body called the European Aviation Safety Agency. This means there is a common set of requirements across Europe on areas like pilot licensing and aircraft type approvals. National regulators, such as the UK CAA, then use those requirements to regulate civil aviation in their country.

As you have repeatedly insisted that "Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines", could you please elaborate on how that this could possibly be the case? The whole idea of the intra-EU open skies policy is that you have harmonization of the regulatory framework.

And with regard to crappy Eastern European regulation, I assume you also call for Wizzair, Czech Air etc. to be banned from the UK as well?

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 10:58

As you have repeatedly insisted that "Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines", could you please elaborate on how that this could possibly be the case?

virginblue,

As an example, and as I previously posted, back in 89/90 when a number of us UK operators were detached to Australia the UK CAA took life so seriously they sent an operations inspector down to check that "whilst the cat is away the mice may play" wasn't taking placer.

In another of my previous lives I worked for an Guyana AOC'd cargo operator, sure the Guyana CAA had regulations but they never sent an inspector out to establish if we were playing by the rules thus we totally disregarded the rules busting so many regulations it wasn't true.

So Van Air have been operating out of Fraggle Rock, a military air base on the remote island of Angelsey and a seaside landing strip near Brighton, pray tell us what the actions EASA and/or the Czech authority have been taking to ensure that these operations have been operated in accordance with the regulations thus ensuring passenger safety?

Or have they been doing diddly squat much as EASA and the Spanish authority did diddly squat prior to Citywing's ORK fatal incident?

virginblue

8th Mar 2017, 14:20

Harry,

so we are not talking about regulation, but about enforcement of regulation. Those are two different things.

However, can you be sure that, for example, the CAA has a resident inspector at various European airports from which bmi regional operates without ever touching UK soil - eg. the sizeable network they operate out of MUC, the routes operated to France and Belgium by a BRE-based aircraft, or their operation in the Swedish wilderness? Could be, but I doubt it.

newaviator

8th Mar 2017, 14:20

"Maybe some of these routes could be a target for the likes of Loganair or Eastern albeit with slightly larger aircraft.

Can see Glasgow and Belfast being a good fit with Loganair on something like GLA-IOM-BHD-IOM-GLA routing."

Not sure about Blackpool and Gloucestershire as seemed a bit of a niche operation.

Not a bad idea , if we wind the clock back a few years Twin Otters plied the route between Blackpool and the Isle of Man daily - don't Loganair have a couple:ok:

Cyrano

8th Mar 2017, 18:35

[I]Not a bad idea , if we wind the clock back a few years Twin Otters plied the route between Blackpool and the Isle of Man daily - don't Loganair have a couple:ok:

I believe they operate a couple of shiny new Viking Twin Otters which the Scottish Government bought for PSO services to Barra. Unless you can make a business case for Barra-IOM :O, or cover the aircraft standing costs for nearly-new Twin Otters (clue: rather a lot more than a LET-410), I don't think you'll be seeing any Loganair Twin Otters from IOM without exceptionally strong binoculars.:hmm:

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 18:43

so we are not talking about regulation, but about enforcement of regulation. Those are two different things.

virginblue,

There are regulations (FTL's) regarding how many hours, days, accumulative hours, rest periods, days off a crew member may work.

I began to read the report of the Citywing (Manx2) ORK crash, from what I read it appeared the operator had crew members operating flights, but only on paper, when in reality it appeared that the first officer who lost his life in that crash had been working day duties as well as night duties whilst the first officer who the operator claimed to be operating some of those flights proved that he was nowhere near to Ireland during that period, he provided a boarding pass proving that he was back in Spain.

Now that operator was busting those regulations and clearly the Spanish authority didn't act sufficiently to enforce those regulations which could have been directly responsible for the subsequent loss of lives, this is serious sh1t!

With regards to the BMIr example you set, firstly inspections will take place at their operations centre, if systems are in place and paperwork in order then that is generally a pretty good sign, often the inspector will get a feeling if the operator are professional or a bunch of cowboys.

Then the inspector will do jumpseat rides, you mention a MUC base, without knowing BMIr's route network it is feasible that an inspector could jumpseat to/from MUC and do a couple of jumpseat rides whilst out there.

With a smile I recall our French inspector when I worked for a Luxembourg cargo operator, we had one aircraft working Europe and another aircraft working French Africa from/to CDG.

He wanted to jumpseat a rotation, we tried to persuade him to stay in Europe but he wasn't having any of it, the flight he rode was destination Bangui where there were thunderstorms resulting in the flight diverting to Kano. Upon arrival in Kano the Nigerian authorities determined that our inspector wasn't an operating crew member thus he had entered Nigeria illegally and they locked him up.

The subsequent telephone conversation we had with the first officer, once he had found a telephone, was one of those telephone conversations that one will never forget ... "Our inspector is in prison" :)

virginblue

8th Mar 2017, 20:37

The Cork crash was with a Spanish airline, if I am not mistaken. Vanair is a Czech airline. Citywing has also employed a German airline (FLM) in the past, they are now using a Danish airline and a Polish airline. So while I get your point, it ultimately means that you advocate that only UK airlines may serve UK airports with UK based aircraft? So where to draw the line - how about the airlines from all over the world that operate into the UK? Does it make a difference if the aircraft is overnighting in the UK or just being turned around?

rob39

8th Mar 2017, 20:55

rob39,

Van Air's AOC, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been suspended, indeed from what I've been reading the Czech authority don't really seem to care that one of their operators goes around trying to kill people!

If you read back in this thread what appears to have happened was they departed IOM destination BHD where the wind, at a minimum mean speed of 20kts, was 80 to 90 degrees, pretty much, straight across the runway in rain showers and, by all accounts, with it's narrow undercarriage the L410's x-wind limitations ain't all that.

Other(s) were diverting to BFS, other alternates, with better runway directions, such as PIK and Machrihanish were available but Van Air attempted at least one approach in to BHD during which they bounced off the runway before electing to return to IOM where, by then, the wind was 40 degrees off the runway, in rain showers, with a mean speed of 42kts and gusts of 56kts.

For reasons that I haven't read an explanation of, it would appear that UK CAA were present at IOM, perhaps in the tower, when the L410 landed, the wind was too strong even for it to taxi, the CAA insisted that it shut down and stay on the runway where apparently a fire truck or two were parked adjacent to shield the wings from the wind.

Then or later the UK CAA decided that Van Air are not to darken their skies again and have withdrawn their authority to operate in UK, the CAA don't normally take such action for a one-off offence and there remains the question what were the CAA doing in the IOM in the first instance!
Thanks Harry for the reply, fully understand now

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 20:55

you advocate that only UK airlines may serve UK airports with UK based aircraft?

Not at all virginblue,

I'm a Brit and as well as working for operators in England, Scotland and Wales I have also worked for operators in Australia, Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands whilst these days I have my own business in the Philippines.

I'm don't have the island mentality that UK is famous for, let's not even get in to Brexit :) , by all means let European operators work UK airports but regulators are for a specific purpose, to REGULATE, the Spanish authorities failed to regulate that Spanish operator that killed people in ORK and it seems the Czech authorities are failing to regulate Van Air bouncing off runways in Ireland etc.

What would you do if you were a UK CAA regulator, allow them to continue or kick their butt?

runway30

8th Mar 2017, 21:15

Van Air operated a PSO route from CWL to VLY. You can insert quality weighting into the tender competition but you have to accept any airline with an EASA licence is qualified to submit a tender.

The problem I have is that a UK devolved government can put their citizens at risk because they are forced to award the contract to an operator from another European country who may not be prepared to provide adequate regulation in the U.K.

virginblue

8th Mar 2017, 21:26

So if you have concerns with the Czech CAA, what is your take on Czech Air operating into the UK? And how about Smartwings? Travelservice?

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 21:36

virginblue,

There was a video that I viewed on youtube some time back "stalled in the sky pilot error", it appears to have been removed now for copyright infringement, but it was an eye opener, I recognised the traits of many a cargo flight crew member that I previously worked with, and in this instance it resulted in a tragic loss of lives.

The programme was about a turboprop, I think a Q400, operating from, I think, Newark (EWR) on a late afternoon or evening departure.

Both pilots were based in EWR yet the Captain lived in Florida, he would commute but was too tight to pay for accommodation, he would occupy nights in the crew room whilst the first officer lived on the west coast, she wouldn't pay for commercial flights and occupied her pre-flight rest period jumpseating on freighters across the USA.

Both pilots were fatigued as a result of their greed and the CVR of that flight demonstrated just how many mistakes they were making as a result and ultimately they made wrong decisions that resulted in them stalling the aircraft killing all on board ... and all because they wouldn't pay for a hotel and/or a flight.

In the report of that ORK flight I read that the first officer had completed his LPC/OPC, I can't recall if he carried out the mandatory number of circuits and bumps, but he didn't undertake any mandatory line training or a final line check whilst the Captain of that flight was low houred whilst there had been a problem during his command upgrade training and he was, at the time of the crash and his death, only a recently upgraded Captain.

A recipe for disaster, a rookie Captain and a fatigued and untrained first officer deprived of rest periods and days off that, like the EWR incident, resulted in the death of some of us fare paying folk.

Do you defend such operating practices?

runway30

8th Mar 2017, 21:39

This isn't a criticism of the standards of the Czech CAA. I am trying to identify the problem of regulation of an operator with routes not within their home country. It maybe that it was always the responsibility of the CAA in the country of operation and national authorities have only just woken up to this.

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 21:40

how about Smartwings? Travelservice?

Are they bouncing off runways and putting their passengers lives at risk in weather conditions when their aircraft should be tied down?

runway30

8th Mar 2017, 21:52

So Harry, is the problem with Van Air
1) they are a very small airline?
2) they ran a remote operation?
3) commercial pressure from the ticket seller?

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 22:08

So Harry, is the problem with Van Air
1) they are a very small airline?
2) they ran a remote operation?
3) commercial pressure from the ticket seller?

runway30,

Size of airline has little significance, size of aircraft operated does tend to have a significance, a previous colleague of mine referred to small aircraft as 'Airfix kits' ... he had a point.

Remote operation, if that remote operation hasn't been regulated by their Czech authority then that is the fault of the authority and not the operator ... Do you recall when you may have gone in to a pub and ordered a beer aged 16 or 17 ... If nobody asks to see your ID is that your fault?

Every operator has a commercial department whether they be in-house, a tour operator or a ticket seller. I have no idea what may have gone on but, as an example, Royal Mail contracts, if a flight operates late then financial penalties apply to the point if it gets so late it is more financially viable to cancel, is that commercial pressure?

EMB-145LR

8th Mar 2017, 22:20

Both pilots were fatigued as a result of their greed and the CVR of that flight demonstrated just how many mistakes they were making as a result and ultimately they made wrong decisions that resulted in them stalling the aircraft killing all on board ... and all because they wouldn't pay for a hotel and/or a flight.

GREED?! Utter nonsense! The FO was on $16,000 a year, the Captain around $40,000. Having flown for the regionals in the US for five years before coming back to Europe, I can tell you this is the norm and is in no way caused by greed, but by necessity as many young pilots can barely afford to live.

The crash was indeed caused by fatigue, but also very poor training at the operating airline, Colgan Air. The captain in particular had a very chequered training record.

Harry Wayfarers

8th Mar 2017, 22:31

GREED?! Utter nonsense! The FO was on $16,000 a year, the Captain around $40,000.

For risk of a thread drift if they couldn't afford what the position(s) entailed, perhaps 8 hours horizontal rest pre-flight and all that, then they should never have taken on the position(s).

Did they explain to the passengers, that they killed, before departure "Excuse us but we are too tired to safely operate this flight but you are welcome to take your chances with us should you choose to do so"?

CandyBender

10th Mar 2017, 21:24

Oh well, it was usually cheaper to do GLA-LCY-IOM anyway.......

"10 March 2017
Citywing statement

As a result of Van Air losing their route licenses on Friday 24th February 2017, the company has found it difficult to source suitable viable aircraft to fulfil our contracts. The company has tried to offer a service whilst suffering considerable losses but these have proved unfortunately to be commercially unsustainable.

It is therefore with much sadness and deep regret that the Directors of Citywing Aviation Services Limited have had to take the difficult decision to close the company today and put the company into liquidation. This decision has not been taken lightly and has been made to protect creditors.

Flights on 11th March 2017 onwards have all been cancelled

We request that you do not turn up at the airports for your flights as there will be no one to assist.

A liquidator will be appointed and they will advise in due course on how to get a refund on your tickets.

There will also be guidance on the UK CAA website from Monday 13th March 2017.
https://www.caa.co.uk/home/

For those passengers on the Cardiff to Anglesey service, we have been advised that your Citywing tickets will be valid on train services out of Cardiff, and from stations between Bangor and Holyhead.

On behalf of all at Citywing, we all apologise for the inconvenience caused and thank you all for your support over the last 4 years.

The Directors
Citywing Aviation Services Limited"

planedrive

10th Mar 2017, 23:07

Well that's the end of that then! Good riddance to Citywing/Manx2. Good luck to anyone trying to get money back from them for booked flights, I'm not sure it will be the easiest of times for you. Great timing as well - Friday afternoon leaving a lot of people anxious over the weekend about what to do.

01475

10th Mar 2017, 23:12

I wonder if the notAirline ManxWing3 will appear.

The lesson appears to be that there genuinely is room in the market (probably the wider market too) for someone to set up an airline (as opposed to a ticket seller) to operate very small aircraft from a number of airports in the UK. I wonder if someone ever will!

And there are some genuine actual airlines (like TransAviaBaltika) that appear to be respectable operators of what's apparently the ideal aircraft for routes to IOM...

Harry Wayfarers

10th Mar 2017, 23:46

Something that occurs to me, on all of Citywing's routes, except one, it is their route and they sub-contract the flying to Van Air or whoever, I think I'm correct in this.

But on the CWL/VLY route it was a Welsh government stipulation that the route, the PSO, could only be awarded to an aircraft operator thus, I read, that the route was Van Air's and they sub-contracted the ticket selling to Citywing and, I think, these recent weeks, Van Air have been chartering North flying to operate the route upon their behalf.

So reading Citywing's press release who are they to call time on the CWL/VLY route when, supposedly and legally, it isn't their route to call time on?

lfc84

10th Mar 2017, 23:59

Manx3 soon?

runway30

11th Mar 2017, 00:31

North Flying don't have a reservation system so whilst Citywing can't stop them flying, someone is needed to sell tickets.

Harry Wayfarers

11th Mar 2017, 00:55

North Flying don't have a reservation system so whilst Citywing can't stop them flying, someone is needed to sell tickets. They don't have travel agents in Wales?

I think you've missed the point runway30 ...

The route doesn't belong to either North Flying nor Citywing, the route belongs to Van Air who appointed Citywing as a mere ticket seller and, just recently, Van Air have been sub-chartering North Flying to operate the route upon behalf of Van Air.

Van Air haven't folded, haven't called in a liquidator, and being banned from UK airspace if they can't afford to continue sub-chartering other operator(s) to operate the route upon their behalf then they, Van Air, are the ones that should be making any announcement, and talking to WAG, not Citywing who are a mere ticket seller.

I wonder how the WAG subsidy works, if Van Air have been paid in advance, I know that if I were WAG I would be studying any contract fine print regarding breach of contract or whatever.

HeartyMeatballs

11th Mar 2017, 07:03

Ding dong the witch is dead.

It adds that Citywing has tried to offer a service while suffering considerable losses but these have proved to be commercially unsustainable. In other words, we are shutting up shop before it gets to expensive. Fear not islanders, ManxWing will be along soon with no debt, liabilities and a clean sheet ready to fly in a few weeks.

El Bunto

11th Mar 2017, 08:35

In other words, we are shutting up shop before it gets to expensive. I think that's unfair. A short-notice Titan 737 charter costs around £3000 per block-hour; if they'd been worried about things 'getting expensive' they'd never have bothered chartering but would have given-up two weeks ago.

For all the disparaging of Citywing on this forum I don't see many others putting their money forward in an effort to 'do it properly'. Starting an airline in the UK is horrifically expensive and for thin routes contracting-out flying may well be the only option.

HeartyMeatballs

11th Mar 2017, 10:00

Oh dear. I can't believe I wrote 'to' instead of 'too'. Oh the humanity. Mucho embarrassed.

Back to Manx2 2.0, it is true that airlines are very expensive to set up. It has been over two decades without a UK based airline having a passenger fatality on a scheduled service. Not a bad record and long may it continue. The only deaths have occurred have been where those victims bought tickets from this ticket seller. A deadly crash, then once they rose from the dead another one of their contractors gets grounded.

Good riddance to a failed business model and a huge leap forward for passengers safety within the UK and the IOM.

virginblue

11th Mar 2017, 10:14

North Flying don't have a reservation system so whilst Citywing can't stop them flying, someone is needed to sell tickets.

North Flying part-owns and operates all flights for Air Norway that has a booking engine.

As for all other routes, time to get the swimmies, fins and goggles out.

Trivia: Three UK airports have today lost their sole/last remaining scheduled service: Anglesey, Blackpool and Gloucester.

HeartyMeatballs

11th Mar 2017, 10:22

Could Eastern extend their NCL-CWL flights and fly a W pattern for the PSO route? Timings won't be great granted but it'll be more cost effective than having an entire aircraft based in CEL just to fly two return trips a day.

Harry Wayfarers

11th Mar 2017, 10:22

Almost two decades without a UK based airline having a fatality

Ahem, to name but one, Loganair have had a couple, 2001 Firth of Forth and 2005 Machrihanish

HeartyMeatballs

11th Mar 2017, 10:30

based airline having a passenger fatality on a scheduled service

Well done for totally misquoting me. The fact of the matter is that a ticketed passenger on a scheduled service operated by a UK airline has not suffered a fatality in over two decades.

A Manx based ticket seller killed six. But keep telling us about how safe they are now rhay that have folded since their contracting carrier has been grounded.

Harry Wayfarers

11th Mar 2017, 10:39

Well done for totally misquoting me. The fact of the matter is that a ticketed passenger on a scheduled service operated by a UK airline has not suffered a fatality in over two decades.

I stand corrected, you did say "passenger fatality" ... Sorry

litefoot1

11th Mar 2017, 11:01

Another nail in the coffin for Blackpool, I fear.

AirGuru

11th Mar 2017, 11:18

Get T3 on the route. PSO CWL-VLY with the existing NCL flights already being flown by the existing schedule. The based aircraft can then fit in a midday NCL to further poach NCL bound passengers from BRS and launch LBA ... Winning ! May have to cap the capacity on the J41 to 19 seats mind.

With people losing their jobs, it's never a great thing to see but this sham of an operation needs to be put to bed now. The CAA seems to have done well with doing just that, and Citywing must have no confidence in Van Air getting their license back from the CAA hence the folding of this sham.

If this were to resurface as Manx2 v3.0 then i'm sure the CAA would be in there once again to sort it out.

Begs the question, why isn't there an airline in the UK doing these services if Van Air and the likes seem to do pretty decently out of it ? Citywing are merely a ticket seller, a concept which the BBC seems to have failed to grasp. I guess T3 are the only small aircraft scheduled operator left in the UK in addition to Loganair.

Anyone fancy setting up an airline and creaming some WG money for CWL-VLY ?

01475

11th Mar 2017, 11:35

Just been reading about the Manx2 crash. Is outrageous that they "got off with it"; to me it is clear that they crossed the line into operating an airline (the thing that clinches it for me is that the airline didn't know who was flying their plane). IMHO even if that wasn't illegal when they did it, it should have been made so afterwards to stop it happening again.

It also looks like there should be a common European Regulator. Can the Spanish / Czech authorities effectively regulate operations on a small island in the middle of nowhere, nowhere near and virtually inaccessible from their countries? Of course they can't :-(

virginblue

11th Mar 2017, 13:08

Begs the question, why isn't there an airline in the UK doing these services if Van Air and the likes seem to do pretty decently out of it ? Citywing are merely a ticket seller, a concept which the BBC seems to have failed to grasp. I guess T3 are the only small aircraft scheduled operator left in the UK in addition to Loganair.

Well, ever wondered why there are millions of Eastern Europeans doing the plumbing, roofing, cleaning, washing the dishes in the UK? Might give you a clue.

A Manx based ticket seller killed six. But keep telling us about how safe they are now rhay that have folded since their contracting carrier has been grounded.

That is the nice thing about statistics. Let us look at, say, a 30 year instead of 20 a year timeframe. During that time, properly regulated UK airlines have killed ten times as many passengers as said Manx ticket seller.

HeartyMeatballs

11th Mar 2017, 13:31

And how many more passengers have properly regulatated UK airlines carried compared to said Manx ticket seller?

Sorry, but if your arguement is on a technicality or if you have to go back 30 years in history then you really don't have much of an arguement do you? Why stop at 30? Why not completely prove me wrong and show me up by showing stats over the last 50 years or 70 years?

Huge advances have been made over the last 30 years and it's been 22 years since KnightAir. That's 22 years without a ticketed passenger death on a UK passenger airline vs. a fatal crash and a grounding by the CAA.

Not the same, not by a long shot. Manx2 and Manx2 the Sequal are gone. Let's hope they don't come back from the dead. This is a tremendous win for passenger safety.

virginblue

11th Mar 2017, 13:47

The point is that any statistic on the safety of a specific airline is moot because of the overall low number of incidents. Because of that, any new incident turns the previous results pretty much upside down (just think Malaysian Airlines). That is the reason why everybody with some knowledge about statistics is always mildly amused when the annual "airline safety" articles are published.

HeartyMeatballs

11th Mar 2017, 14:06

The annual airline safety award published by Geoffrey Thomas which always names Qantas as #1 is published to keep him in the Chairman's Lounge and nothing else.

You have a very valid point. Malaysia will likely forever have a reputation as being unsafe as statistically, they probably due to the two crashes, but I'd fly them tomorrow. They're a real airline, they are accountable, if I'm killed my family know whose door to knock on.

This is not the same as a ticket seller masquerading as an airline. It's branding says airline. It's name says airline. It's name is on check in desks. It's name is painted on the side of planes. It's website it like any other airline. They even did the rostering for flight 7100.

It wants to be an airline without the hassle and investment of being an airline and when things go t^ts up they were quick to walk away and say 'we were just the ticket seller', Flightline BCN were the bad guys. They killed your loved on. Oh, and then shut up shop mysterious soon after then appearing with the exact same heavily criticised setup, same management, same airlines operating service (minus Flightline BCN) but with a different name.

I apologise if I seem overly harsh and I'm sorry for anyone who has lost their job, but life is very precious. It cannot be risked by some two bob outfit who runs like an airline but seemingly without the vast amounts of safety systems that a real airline has. If you want to be seen as a real airline, then you need to put the same effort into safety as a real airline. Manx2 and Citywing have had a decade to get things right. They've continued to get it wrong and it is only fair that they be shut down.

runway30

11th Mar 2017, 14:26

The reason for the ticket seller getting an exemption from ATOL regulations is that the passenger at the point of booking gets a ticket on a named airline. If the ticket seller goes out of business the passenger should still be able to turn up for their flight.

However, this ticket seller has gone out of business, the airlines instantly vanish and the passengers don't know where their money is.

This shows how much this was an abuse of the intention of the regulations and how badly the regulations were written to allow this to happen.

Harry Wayfarers

11th Mar 2017, 14:44

They even did the rostering for flight 7100.

What???

Particularly after the ORK incident I would have expected that they improve themselves, keep their image squeaky clean, to ensure of no repercussion, It's not as if they can say "But we didn't know about Storm Doris"!

If that is true, that Manx2 were doing the crew scheduling, then surely an inspector should have questioned them with some pretty basic Spanish FTL questions which should have dumbfounded them ... unless they were outside the jurisdiction of any airline regulatory authority!

Were I a ticket seller then, admittedly with my background, I would be my own Quality Manager checking that things were being operated legally ... But then I may have fellow workers/management telling me that I could do whatever I liked as long as it didn't impact upon the bank balance.

If just some of what I have been reading is true then good riddance to Manx2, Citywing or whatever they may be calling themselves next week and I'm still curious what the UK CAA were doing in IOM on that fateful day, I wonder if that story may ever be heard!

HeartyMeatballs

11th Mar 2017, 15:36

https://s11.postimg.org/65jsn6s5f/IMG_0675.jpg

It is shocking indeed. Having reskimmed through the official report it also says the crew wore a Manx2 uniform and were required to say "welcome onboard this Manx2 flight operated by XYZ" and "we hope you have enjoyed your Manx2 flight".

It goes back to what I was saying in that if you want to act like an airline, bother your ar$e and become one. Don't fool people by masquerading as one. Let's hope this is really the end of them.

(ps please forgive the squiggly line, it's as straight as I could get it on my tablet).

Harry Wayfarers

11th Mar 2017, 16:08

Well as an ex Operations Controller, Crew Scheduling Manager etc. I have some recognition of the incompetence:

Manx2 wouldn't have been aware that the F/O wasn't even trained, wasn't legal, whilst the Captain's command upgrade probably took place back in Spain, I mean all Manx2 would have seen was a bloke with 4 stripes on his arm ... "Ahh, you'll do"!

I can recall back to my first airline employer back in the 70's, low houred and/or pilots inexperienced in their position got an asterix against their name to ensure that two asterix's weren't scheduled to fly together whilst I've recently had a PDQ scam of the Wiki report of flight 7100 and what a total pig's ear the whole set-up appears to have been.

Whilst it is the operator that carries the can, and with prior knowledge that another F/O had been released from duties to return to Spain thus one F/O was working both day and night duties, probably without days off, from what I am reading above it would appear that these ticket selling muppets in IOM have blood on their hands.

One operator I worked for, I can't possibly mention their name but they operated HS748's from a LPL base and the CAA ultimately pulled their ticket. I had worked for them during the 90's, i returned to them during the 00's but, by then, I didn't need the money, I was just there for the crack, I was doing the day to day crew scheduling and often the commercial manager would walk in to enquire if we had a crew available for an adhoc charter.

Not to say that they were tighter than duck's backsides but crews lying around would have been considered a luxury, invariably the answer was a very firm "NO" but, as I recall, every time he would go and sell the charter and put the onus on to us that it was our problem to crew it ... and he would announce it with a smirky grin ... As I say the CAA ultimately pulled their ticket.

So ... Been there, Done that :)

Startledgrapefruit

11th Mar 2017, 22:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgYuLsudaJQ

El Bunto

12th Mar 2017, 06:34

Manx2 and Citywing have had a decade to get things right. They've continued to get it wrong and it is only fair that they be shut down. Citywing hasn't been 'shut down'. There was no action taken against them as they were operating perfectly legally.

Interestingly, according to the local Czech press the Czech CAA ( a member of EASA ) has said that it is not investigating Van Air nor has it suspended its AOC; they say they have been in contact with the UK CAA but it is the latter that instigated the 'grounding' and is conducting investigation: Stroje brnìnských aerolinek v Británii dolétaly. Po problematickém pøistání - iDNES.cz (http://brno.idnes.cz/van-air-pristani-ostrov-man-uzemneni-vysetrovani-fsc-/brno-zpravy.aspx?c=A170301_162728_brno-zpravy_krut) ( machine translation ): A spokesman for the Czech Office, however, rejects this information. "We are in contact with the British aviation authority which started and solves it. We strive for synergies, but rather it concerns the reporting of information and consultation, otherwise, we're interested in it very little. Unfortunately as was discovered by airlines during the Icelandic ash event a few years ago, one cannot sue the UK CAA to recover losses incurred by their actions. They're basically untouchable and unaccountable. And this is a perfect example of what that enables; they can throw around some vague statements about safety concerns, send a small airline home, cause a travel provider to run up huge expenses and go bust and then... do nothing. They'll let it all drop, quietly. Job done for the Campaign Against Aviation.

Harry Wayfarers

12th Mar 2017, 08:04

Unfortunately as was discovered by airlines during the Icelandic ash event a few years ago, one cannot sue the UK CAA to recover losses incurred by their actions. They're basically untouchable and unaccountable. And this is a perfect example of what that enables; they can throw around some vague statements about safety concerns, send a small airline home, cause a travel provider to run up huge expenses and go bust and then... do nothing. They'll let it all drop, quietly. Job done for the Campaign Against Aviation. El Bunto,

Play tell, what are the crosswind limitations for a L410 on a damp or wet runway and what are the maximum wind speeds before it is recommended that the aircraft type be tied down?

Because at the time they made their approach(es) in to BHD Storm Doris was blowing directly across (90 degrees off) the runway at speeds of circa 23-40kts, the world's favourite airline diverted to BFS, your favourite airline attempted to kill their passengers by attempting at least one approach during which they bounced off the BHD runway.

Then, rather than divert to an alternate within limits they elected to return to IOM where Storm Doris was blowing 40 degrees of the damp or wet runway at speeds of 42-56kts.

So please kindly explain how Van Air, upon behalf of Citywing, were operating legally and why the CAA were wrong to pull their ticket?

Or did I miss something?

And as a PS, I have little or no time for the CAA, during my airline career I accommodated them as a must, but on this occasion I tip my cap to them, they got something right.