Latest P2f heaven - Australia and Singapore

[lingdee]

With the fall of Indonesia as a p2f heaven, seems like Australia and Singapore have become one.

They are charging a bomb for the tiger, jetstar and qatar mpl program.

Flyscoot has also join the game. Hope they are open to all nationalities.

[flying.monkeyz]

Hi Lingdee,

With regards to the Flyscoot program, do you mean ab initio?

[TheExpatPilot]

lingdee, again, you're off the mark. These are not pay to fly. These are cadetships/traineeships, there is a difference. You need to pass many various tests to get through, there is a screening process. Pay to fly there is no screening process, just the size of your wallet. Long story short, the people accepted into these programs (while maybe not the perfect candidate and not necessarily amazing pilots) are at the very least less of a risk to the company than a pay to fly pilot with no screening process and nothing to prove their worth or ability.

Know the difference. It will save you a lot of unnecessary posts here. :ugh:

[Hogger60]

You are mistaken with regards to Scoot. There is no pay-to-fly program or even any kind of ab-initio or cadet intake.

Non-type rated pilots do pay for a type-rating, but that is the norm for most (if not all) LCC's. Everyone who is hired is paid base salary through training, then once checked out on the line they receive full pay.

[chronos1701]

This may sound like a newbie question, but what exactly constitutes a p2f scheme? :sad:

[dl_88]

p2f as i know it would be paying a sum of money to sit on the RHS of a jet, without going through the long selection process of a cadetship.

[TheExpatPilot]

I guess if you had to define what Pay To Fly actually is, dl_88 isn't far off the mark. Many people mistakenly think it's about the money.

If you've been in aviation for a while you've probably heard about the "swiss cheese" model. Basically what P2F is doing is looking (hunting - if you will) for the flimsiest stack of swiss cheese slices it can find, getting a trolley pole and shoving it smack down the middle of it, thus creating such a massive hole that any budding aviator, whether they have the aptitude or not can waltz into a position as Second in Command (note: responsibility) of a high performance aircraft that requires a lot more than a 200 total hour 'wonder of the skies' playing aeroplanes for real.

There has been a tried and tested way of recruiting experienced flight crew into such positions of responsibility. P2F by-passes the lot.

To make things worse, as they are for all intents and purposes buying a job, the worth of a pilot becomes less. You have airlines "employing" zero hour top guns and offering them ZERO salary for a certain time period, marketing it as "sponsored line training". What they're getting is a free pilot. Then what happens is other airlines see this. "Why should we PAY our pilots when our competitor is getting PAID?? This is fantastic!".

And so the P2F disease spreads. Experienced pilots at established airlines suddenly aren't getting pay increases, new employees are getting offered less and less each year. Airlines crying poor about "tough financial times". The people who participate in P2F schemes are laughing, they've just got 500 hours on type, time to move to the next job! Oh, wait, they only pay that much? What happened to the terms and conditions? Well, genious, you did this, to everyone. So, on behalf of the hard workers in the aviation industry, we thank you for contributing to its downfall.

Now please don't mistake, for example, someone who's been laid off already with 2000+ hours on type and are offered a job through an agency. These are experienced pilots. Again, it's not the money involved, it's the selfish risks these newbies take and are totally oblivious, nor care, about the implications of these actions. It's not just the agents who take advantage of these people either, the airlines must take the blame as well. But then again, as an airline why would you want to pay anyone anything, right?

To all those would-be P2F'ers - don't.

[kwaiyai]

Yeah its like Eagle Jet, I remember many plus years ago did it with Air Asia,
pay them to fly 500 hours as an FO with AA. I Still remember being called a freak by one of those Faggots there for flying an old Aircraft. At least I was paid a salary in the one I was in and didn't pay for a rating first:p.

[dl_88]

tiger, jetstar & qatar mpl do have their selection process and training to their standards which needs to pass their C&T qc. correct me if i'm wrong, but i feel that it is the lack of standardised training or consistancy and mentoring that cadetship will provide is the main factor in the differentiation of p2f & cadetships. Paywise, i think they do pay you when you've either been inducted into the company or have been cleared to the line and at the standard rates instead of those p2f who have to go hungry.

@TheExpatPilot thanks for elaborating my point.

i totally agree with the james reason model, in my opinion no matter which safety model is used they would be seen as the weakest link if not the trigger of the active failures.

[chronos1701]

Thanks for the replies guys. Really helped to clear things up. :ok:

[lingdee]

I would like to add to the points above.

In europe and US ( where the p2f is born ), I would generally agree that it is due to cut and save cost.

In Asia, it is due to past sponsored candidates who once they got the rating and hours, ran away and causes the airline to lose TONS of money, hence the p2f thingy for airline to protect themselves.

As for the misconception of p2f is getting a job with virtually no test and so long you have money, that is nonsense.

In jet airways, we are required to pay for the rating and we have to go through a very tough selection process.

As for having money and you will enroll in a p2f and on the RHS of the jet, if you have the money today, there are no slots for you and even there is, mostly are scams.

They have to do p2f not because they are rich or they want to jump que ( as most think it is ), simply because they have NO CHOICE.

Whether you are in an integrated course or self sponsored CPL , that itself is p2f and the flying schools and type rating centre are laughing all the way to the bank.

[Sky Dancer]

My friend , let's not talk about how tough the selection at Jet Airways is.We all know that not too many bright folk have ended up in there.The record of your flight exceedences and the record of some of your trainers speak for themselves.:ok:

[pilotchute]

Jet airways make you pay for the rating. Ok

Do Jet pay you for the first 500 hours of flying? I would suspect they do. Lion and the other P2f schemes don't pay you for the first 500 hours. Do Jet pay for your 6 monthly sim check? I would say yes. Lion do not. That's why two people I know had to go to the ME to do PC's. Lion wouldn't let them use their own sims cause that would cost Lion money.

Please stop posting rubbish lingdee.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Flying is probably one of very few professions were people "Pay their employers" for a job let alone a type rating......it's rather sad ....imagine the playing field in another 10-20 years from now ! Our kids and grand kids are going to suffer dearly.

It's akin to the worlds debt crisis. Unfortunately there are too many pilots in the world. Sad part is only 70% of the worlds pilot population actually wanted to be pilots anyway. The other 30% have rich daddy's who pay so their kids can look glorified in their airline outfit !

This pay to fly scheme started in the West !! Now the Asian carriers have taken this scheme to a whole new level.

[Sephore]

Simple question, how many people went or still in the so called P2F vs non P2F ?