Auf Wiedersehn, Phantom!

[ORAC]

Had a good long run. Hope they preserve a few.

Auf Wiedersehn, Phantom! (http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:971aa875-bd7a-423e-9c7d-8a3c6e096932)

The Luftwaffe's last F-4F Phantom IIs bade their final farewell on 29 June to a crowd of 130,000 people attending an open day at their home base of Wittmund. Since the landing of the Luftwaffe's first two Phantoms at Wittmund on 31 August 1973, the aircraft clocked up 279,000 flying hours.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Portals/AWeek/Ares/Fiorenza/farewell.jpg Luftwaffe photo by Toni Dahmen

At the time, the Phantom was meant to serve five to 10 years, a period which was extended to 15 but ended up lasting four decades.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Portals/AWeek/Ares/Fiorenza/formation.jpg Luftwaffe photo by Christian Esser

[SpringHeeledJack]

I got chatting to a couple of very young Luftwaffe F4 pilots at Fairford last year and they still felt the love for the Toom and it's He-Man abilities, would lament it's retirement, but were looking forward to the Eurofighter as their next steed. A testament to the sturdiness of the aircraft and care given to it by the mechanics that allowed it to last so long.

[Evanelpus]

Any truth in the rumours I'm hearing that Waddington and Fairford are trying to get the Phantoms for their shows in the coming days and weeks?

[Navaleye]

We had F4s for both the Navy and the RAF. How come the box-heads have managed to make theirs last so long when ours were clapped out 20 years ago?

[SpringHeeledJack]

Maybe it's a bit like Trigger's sweeping brush in 'Only Fools and Horses.'

[RAFEngO74to09]

Navaleye,

110 x F-4F were upgraded under the Improved Combat Efficiency (ICE) program which was completed in 1992. The main changes were introduction of the APG-65 radar (as in F/A-18 Hornet) and AMRAAM.

Several alternatives to ICE were considered - such as short-term gap filler purchases of other aircraft types until Eurofighter was available - but ICE was considered the most economical and ended up enabling exactly the plan that was intended.

[BEagle]

The Luftwaffe F-4Fs were also maintained to a very high standard.

Not for them the speed tape and black bodge tape standards of others.

In addition, their aircraft were always immaculately turned out.

[NutLoose]

I remember reading somewhere they had two that were flown off the production line to a Lufty technical school in Germany, so only had delivery hours on them.

Often wonder if they ever went into service, they had under 50 hours on them, mind you in service mods etc would have been needed to bring them up to service standards.

The old F-4 did some pretty amazing things.... Pardo's push for one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRNbcPS3A9c&sns=em


..

[typerated]

Strange how we developed and built the Tornado F3 to replaced the F4 and they retired when??

Perhaps we should have just upgraded our F4s in the early 90s and went straight onto Typhoon like the Germans

[Evalu8ter]

Typerated,
The rumour was the RAF wanted to 'keep up' with the USN/USAF and replace the F4 with F14 or F15....then BAe said 'but we've got a fighter version of Tornado....' and the rest is history. The former, with the AWG-9/AIM-54 combo would have appeared a perfect fit for the 1980s RAF war role of intercepting the Soviet bomber force before it either hit the UK or ReForGer convoys.

Would an upgraded F4 (a la Luftwaffe) been a better bet than the F3? Moot point given the politics, but perhaps our jets were a little more tired than the German ones given their early use as mudmovers?

[fantom]

Oh dear. The very mighty Phantom. :sad:

[Lima Juliet]

Phank Phuck! :E

[Rhino power]

Great to see the Luftwaffe give their F-4s a proper send off, shame the RAF couldn't have done the same, but then again, the Tornado F.3 passed without much fanfare as well...

-RP

p.s. apologies for mentioning the Tornado in a thread about the F-4! :E

[NutLoose]

And no doubt they will be offered to museums far and wide across Germany for free, unlike the UK where the likes of the Moravia lot up in Scotland would like a VC10 but cannot raise the funds to secure one, seems heritage is ok in the UK, but at a price.

[500N]

" And no doubt they will be offered to museums far and wide across
Germany for free,"

With US permission !

[Rhino power]

Well clearly the US have given permission because there is already a full airframe (de-mil) up for auction! Don't seem to remember that happening for UK F-4s... Unless of course you were a scrap merchant!
Didn't Hanningfield(?) Metals try and preserve XV404 in the full tiger scheme only to be told by the MOD, SCRAP IT!!!

-RP

[54Phan]

two years ago with 17 flying hours on it. IIRC.

[500N]

Once any good stuff is taken out, I doubt the F4 would be of interest
to many although they wouldn't want Iran getting hold of them.

The US allowed the F-111's to be handed off to places here in Aus
once some classified stuff was taken out although I think most
are under Gov't control.

[Rhino power]

Just seems at odds to when the UK F-4s were retired that under no circumstances were civvy organizations to be allowed to save one yet, the Lufty have at least one up for general auction?

-RP

[ORAC]

CFE treaty. During the Cold War the US was more insistent on the F4s being scrapped both for the CFE treaty and to keep spares out of the hands of the Iranians. With the massive reductions in total numbers I doubt the CFE worries anyone anymore, but after the F14 Iranian spares rumpus I'm sure they'll ensure the limits and rules are observed.

SECTION X - PROCEDURE FOR REDUCTION
BY MEANS OF STATIC DISPLAY
Section X consists of five paragraphs. This Section sets forth the rights, obligations, and procedures with respect to the reduction of Treaty-limited armaments and equipment by means of static display. However, Section X places a cap on the number of items that may be reduced by means of static display. Also, before such items may be placed on display, they must first undergo reduction procedures at reduction sites. As a result, they will be subject to inspection without right of refusal while undergoing the procedures. Paragraph 1 of Section X provides that each State Party has the right to reduce a certain number of Treaty-limited armaments and equipment by means of static display.

Paragraph 2 of Section X provides that no State Party shall use static display to reduce more than one percent or eight items, whichever is greater, of its maximum levels for holdings it declared at signature of the Treaty for each category of Treaty-limited armaments and equipment.

Paragraph 3 of Section X provides that, notwithstanding paragraphs 1 and 2 above, each State Party also has the right to retain in working order two items of each existing type of Treaty-limited armaments and equipment for the purpose of static display. Paragraph 3 further provides that such items shall be displayed at museums or similar sites. In this regard, the Protocol on Existing Types lists the existing types of conventional armaments and equipment subject to the Treaty..........

[Riskman]

A testament to the sturdiness of the aircraft and care given to it by the mechanics that allowed it to last so long.

I remember a Luftwaffe Mig 29 and an F4 sqn at Deci in '97 wiw there IV(AC). It was always a toss-up who would get to the bar before closing, us or the F4s. They were very much in the work hard, play hard mould.
The others didn't socialise.

R

[Thone1]

@NutLosse:

They will not be offered to museums, all 8 remaining aircraft are now at Jever airbase.
Starting tomorrow, they will be scapped. Only one or two of them will be used as gate guards, 37+01, the blue bird, will end up at Wittmund airbase.
This aircraft was the first that was delivered and one of the last to take off from Wittmund.

Tom

[BEagle]

Wie Schade!

Warum so?

:mad:

[500N]

It's wonder the US didn't take them back to be used as target drones
unless they have moved on from the Phantom already and don't
have any more conversion parts.

[RAFEngO74to09]

500N,

The USAF is moving onto the QF-16 as an aerial target.

QF-16 drone arrives for testing, prepares warfighters for tomorrow's threats (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123327445)

[500N]

RAF Eng,

Thanks for that, much appreciated.

I vaguely remembered in an article about the QF-4 Drones that because the F4's had sat in the bone yard for so long "additional" complications occurred like cracked fuel tanks etc and I thought fully F4's would make it easier but not
to be.

[54Phan]

There were 10 F-4Es built for the Luftwaffe as well, they were kept in the States for training, and the survivors were retired and sent to the boneyard some time ago.

They used to send Phantoms and Alpha Jets from Goose Bay to airshows around North America. I remember talking to a German Phantom pilot at an airshow in the mid 80's, and he said that he hoped the Russians didn't invade that weekend, because the whole Goose Bay contingent was at airshows!

[54Phan]

As an aside, and totally off topic, am I the only person who thinks that "warfighters" is a stupid word? Answers on a postcard.

[twb3]

We build 'em to last here in St. Louis.

Still do, although the original works are out of service now. The last aircraft I saw on the ramp that over 10,000 jets rolled out on was the Solar Impulse. Quite a change from a fire-belching pair of J-79s.

TWB

[BEagle]

As an aside, and totally off topic, am I the only person who thinks that "warfighters" is a stupid word?

I agree. It sounds like the title of some 1/6d 'War Picture Library' comic....

[SirToppamHat]

Orac

SECTION X - PROCEDURE FOR REDUCTION
BY MEANS OF STATIC DISPLAY


But the UK MOD policy was not to declare any Treaty-Limited Eqpt under this section, which is why all the gate guardians were declared under CFE as TLE, irrespective of state, flyability/fireability.

I never understood the reasoning, perhaps there was an element of being 'holier then thou' about it? I am not even sure we produce an annual declaration for CFE any more, though I am guessing there is still one for the Vienna Document Treaty.

STH

[TEEEJ]

STH,

The census used for the CFE declaration, Vienna Document, etc is still produced. Census taken 2nd week of October.

'Data Quality'

UKDS 2012 - Chapter 4 - Formations, Vessels, Aircraft and Vehicles of the Armed Forces (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2012/c4/sec4intro.php)

The census, which is sponsored by the MOD Arms Control and Counter Proliferation Policy Department (ACP), is normally completed in the 2nd week of October each year. It directs all UK military Formations and Units to provide detailed information on their holdings of military hardware.

2012

Still 5 F-4s listed on CFE declared sites.

F4 Phantom *2 (2.Obsolete non-operational equipment used as training aids, gate guardians and museum pieces on CFE declared sites.)

'Table 4.13 Aircraft Holdings in the UK, Germany, Cyprus and Gibraltar within the scope of the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty, at 1 January each year'

UKDS 2012 - Chapter 4 - Formations, Vessels, Aircraft and Vehicles of the Armed Forces (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2012/c4/table413.php)

'Table 4.15 Declared Attack Helicopters and Combat Aircraft Holdings and Ceilings by country within the scope of the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty, at 1 January 2012'

UKDS 2012 - Chapter 4 - Formations, Vessels, Aircraft and Vehicles of the Armed Forces (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2012/c4/table415.php)

'Chapter 4 - Formations, Vessels, Aircraft and Vehicles of the Armed Forces'

UKDS 2012 - Chapter 4 - Formations, Vessels, Aircraft and Vehicles of the Armed Forces (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2012/chapter4.php)

UKDS 2012 (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2012/ukds.php)

[stuminisprite]

reference the tornado f3 posts, although the RAF may of made them out of service, i know first hand there are around 8 f3's still in serviceable condition! seems they have outlasted the F4 phantoms..........;)

[Genstabler]

Warfighting is the military term describing the strategic maoeuvre activity of conventional warfare with few constraints between opposing formations of all arms. Examples are Yom Kippur, Op Granby, Op Corporate, blitzkrieg.
As opposed to lower intensity conflicts like Op Banner, Malayan emergency, Borneo confrontation, Afghanistan (though here the expression low intensity is somewhat misleading).
Yes, I do think "warfighters" is a silly word.

[Four Types]

On a F4J detachment to Bitburg (Canadian F15s) we had to rob the Gateguard F4 for a nosewheel hydraulic pipe to get the jet back in the air!!

[BEagle]

On a F4J detachment to Bitburg (Canadian F15s).....

Are you sure aboot that, eh?

[sled dog]

USAF 36th TFW were at Bitburg......

[walbut]

Just out of curiosity I wonder how many flying hours the lead GAF Phantom had when it was retired. I seem to remember the RAF aircraft were around 5000 hours.

Walbut

[TEEEJ]

Rhino Power wrote

Don't seem to remember that happening for UK F-4s... Unless of course you were a scrap merchant!

Phantom FGR.2, serial XV474, was in private hands after retirement. It was owned by The Old Flying Machine Company and could still taxi. The rumour was that the OFMC was intending to fly her on the civilian register? XV474 was later taken over by the Imperial War Museum as a static display.

This unique piece of video shows Mark Hanna giving his sister Sarah "a ride" in the OFMC's Phantom, namely a fast taxi, along runway 24 at Duxford, watched by their father Ray.

'Embedding disabled by request' See following link.

Mark Hanna_OFMC's Phantom_Duxford_1993 - YouTube

[cuefaye]

All of this, and not one decent photo!

[CoffmanStarter]

These any good Cue ?

The following F-4F is 37+01, the first one to be delivered to the Luftwaffe in 1974

http://i.imgur.com/OLNQ5pD.jpg

http://www.nwzonline.de/rf/image_online/NWZ_CMS/NWZ/2011-2013/Produktion/2013/05/10/FRIESLAND/Bilder/JEVER_2931e873-0f46-481d-893e-9c849d2b4b05.jpg

http://www.nwzonline.de/rf/image_online/NWZ_CMS/NWZ/2011-2013/Produktion/2013/05/10/FRIESLAND/Bilder/JEVER_355ddc80-67fd-47ee-b01a-c726b4a83c9f.jpg

More here along with credits for the pics ...

Last Luftwaffe Phantoms (http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/thread/1372443288/last-1373044180/Farewell+for+the+last++Luftwaffe+F4+Phantom)

[500N]

I am surprised Courtney hasn't added to the thread.

[CoffmanStarter]

Won't be too long I'm sure :ok:

Nice scheme though :D

[Rhino power]

Just out of curiosity I wonder how many flying hours the lead GAF Phantom had when it was retired. I seem to remember the RAF aircraft were around 5000 hours.

Over 7,000 hours i've seen quoted somewhere...

-RP

[SRENNAPS]

I remember arriving in a 60 Sqn Pembroke at Neuburg Air Base in southern Germany to recover one of our Goldstar Tonkas. By the time we arrived at the airbase the sun had gone down, it was very cold and a heavy mist was starting to form. Both me and the 60 Sqn crew were not even sure if we were at the right airfield because of the close proximity of other bases nearby with similar sounding names. We were certain that a comms breakdown had occurred as the German Air Base did not seem to be expecting us.
Suddenly, out of the mist a chap appeared on his bicycle. He did a 180 in front of us and cycled off displaying a yellow vest with the words “Follow Me” hastily written in black marker pen. So we followed him until out of the ever increasing density of the mist we saw the outline of a Tornado.
The Pembroke shut down, we all jumped out and went across the apron to chat to the cyclist. Suddenly one of the most amazing and awesome sights I have ever seen happened: In a very short space of time 6 German F4F Phantoms took off in 3 pairs of two. With the backdrop of the mist in darkened skies, the noise of the donks in the cold air and the brightness of the burners, the sight was truly incredible. Something I will just never forget!

Cut a long story short and drifting to the drinking culture thread, our Tornado aircrew had left instructions in Ops to which hotel we were in and which bar we were to meet them in once we had finished our work. We quickly diagnosed an engine change, wrapped up tools, cadged a lift from the German Air Force to the hotel and headed straight for the bar. On arrival we were confronted by our two crew and several German F4 aircrew, already absolutely paralytic. The Tornado pilot (no names) started to slobber all over me thanking the fact that I had diagnosed a donk change and there was no danger of him having to fly the jet the next morning :E

Very soon we were all well happy but my big regret was that I did not have any camera with me to have caught something of those F4Fs taking off :(

[RetiredF4]

cuefaye
All of this, and not one decent photo!

I had been there and honored the jets jets i´d flown 36 years ago in the very same 71 Richthofen wing. To tell the trueth, it was a sad day not only for myself, but for a lot of former pilots and technicians and even the local folks around the airport.

The most comprehensive information and pictures can be found on FB

https://www.facebook.com/pharewell

I´ve flown more than 3200 hours in the phantom (models F4-F, F4-E, RF-4E, RF-4C) and i will miss this brave aircraft.

franzl

[Geehovah]

I couldn't let the event pass without raising a glass. I only had 10 hours on the "F" but it was well worth the trip. Our friends at Wittmund did the F4 proud. It was a great hangar party and the display was superb once the rain cleared in the afternoon. End of an era.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/332.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DeeGee/media/Aircraft/332.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/220A.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DeeGee/media/Aircraft/220A.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Nice pics Gee, RetiredF4 :D

My favourite pic from RetiredF4's collection has to be ...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1043862_383012768472103_2059230466_n.jpg

[thing]

Always enjoyed my time on the 'Toom, sad to see it go but such is the way of things. I was thinking that a forty year span is the same as retiring the Sopwith Camel from front line service in 1957..about the same year I think that the F4 first flew. Just shows what amazing advances we made in the 40 years from 1917 to 1957.

Coff: that pic is amazing, it looks like a painting.

[RetiredF4]

That´s my favorite phantom pharwell picture, the old lady with 8.6Gs in the display flight.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1048050_10200279330325143_1492436072_o.jpg

credit to Udo Janßen from his facebook site
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200279330325143&set=gm.10151527134412852&type=1&relevant_count=1

franzl

[RAFEngO74to09]

For those PPRuNers of a certain age who will always have special memories of the Phabulous Phantom (regardless of mark), here are just some of the many videos that have now appeared on You Tube since this thread was started. Great J79 sounds, great paint and some great flying:

JG 71 'R' Goodbye Phantom - Pharewell fastcut - YouTube

Phantom Pharewell - YouTube

Phantom Pharewell - Teaser, F-4F Phantom II (38 -10) Low Pass, Touch and Go, Wittmund 29.06.2013 - YouTube

Last arrivals of Phantoms '71 Geschwader' German AF; Phantom Pharewell - YouTube

Last Arrival of the Last Phantom German AF; Phantom Pharewell - YouTube

[Rhino power]

Great videos, brought a tear to the eye! 38+10 in the 'Norm 72' camo looks phantsastic! :ok:

-RP

[Dengue_Dude]

I remember taxying past the line in Wattisham and RAFG stations, never did a line of warplanes look as built-for-purpose than the Phantom.

What a machine . . .

Great pics.

Well done McDonnell-Douglas - the Yanks make great hardware.