CIR BFR

[EC120]

Does a CIR renewal/test cover a BFR:confused:

[ilikeit]

yes it is.

[On eyre]

But still needs a logbook entry I believe to be kosher

[avconnection]

Any test (route based) covers a BFR, no need to enter anything regarding the BFR in your log book as the test supersedes it.

[404 Titan]

EC120

A quick search of the CAAP's would have provided you with the answer you are looking for.

Flight Crew Licensing Flight Reviews (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/5_81_1.pdf)

[nitpicker330]

It's not called a BFR anymore. It's an AFR and needs to be every 2 years if you don't do any other recurrent checking/test which would make it not required!!

[Arm out the window]

Read through CAR1988, eg CAR 5.81 (Private (aeroplane) pilot: regular flight reviews required), all will be revealed.

Similar ones exist for all the different categories of licence, and they're helpfully available on the net (CASA website) these days so you don't even need a big dusty book with a swag of un-incorporated amendments taking up shelf space any more.

[On eyre]

I stand corrected - thanks avconnection

[Shagpile]

Anybody know whether annual IRT's and category check rides in the RAAF cover civil BFR (Sorry, AFR) ?

[Arm out the window]

Sorry mate, they don't. Although if you happen to have a testing officer who's also a CASA ATO I guess it might be possible, but the chances of that would be pretty slim.

As you may know, you get a few significant credits for military time which are specified in CASR etc, but there are some whacky exceptions, eg having to get an appropriately qualified civvy instructor to write you up for low flying and formation, rather than CASA giving it to you automatically when they issue your licence.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Sorry mate, they don't. Although if you happen to have a testing officer who's also a CASA ATO I guess it might be possible, but the chances of that would be pretty slim.

Actually one who holds a civvy Gr 2 or higher and has permission to conduct AFR's from an AoC holder will suffice.:ok:

ps. Anyone know of any QFI's who hold dual quals?

[Arm out the window]

Yeah, that would work I suppose. It'd have to be on a type that's on the civil register though, wouldn't it?

[nitpicker330]

My checking/recurrent training in HK with CX is recognized by CASA as it falls under HK CAD which is a contracting state with Australia. Therefore I'm not required to do an AFR every 2 years.
I could even do a instrument rating renewal as long as I used an approved testing officer and completed all the items on the Australian renewal form.

Surely these same rules ( a contracting state approved operator etc ) would cover the RAAF as well?

.

[Arm out the window]

Good point about the BFTS guys - instructor ratings, IRTs and flight reviews are no doubt all sorted for staff pilots there in the course of their normal duties, but there's probably going to be some sticking points for getting stuff done at other units.

Unless I'm looking at it from the wrong viewpoint, I reckon you'd need to be:

a) flying a type on the civil register which is also the one you did your last 10 flights in; and

b) being checked out by someone rated on type who is also an 'appropriate person'. If that's the case, whose AOC are they working in an arrangement with? BFTS?

Maybe it'd be possible to arrange for a BFTS person who's previously flown your type to come out to your unit and do the job.

I know stuff along these lines has been done in the past, ie suitably qualified ATO or 'approved person' comes out to unit operating a type that's also on the register, does a bunch of instructor ratings or whatever, but there might be a bit of non-kosherness associated with it unless you can tick all the boxes properly.

[Lasiorhinus]

Wheres the requirement that the flight be conducted in an aircraft on the Australian Civil Aircraft Register?

[Arm out the window]

Wheres the requirement that the flight be conducted in an aircraft on the Australian Civil Aircraft Register?

Not sure about that one, perhaps it wouldn't be a restriction.

My thought process was that if a defence aircraft isn't on the register, ie a recognised aircraft rather than registered, military aircrew don't need civil licences and ratings to fly it. CASA licencing rules don't apply for that type, and I guess it seems counter-intuitive to me that you could fulfil the flight review requirements on a type that doesn't fall under the auspices of the authority.

On a quick scan through the CARs, nothing stood out to say one way or the other, so maybe you could. I have the niggling feeling that there'll be a definition somewhere appropriate to the issue, maybe someone can enlighten us.

[Mach E Avelli]

This is drifting a bit from the original CIR/BFR/AFR question, which has been answered clearly enough (CIR renewal is good for all), but my question for the experts is:

If Australian CIR and AFR or BFR has gone beyond two years, yet the pilot is working to a six month Part 121 check cycle on the NZ system (being over age 65) would a check done under that system automatically confer PPL privileges to fly VH rego - assuming the Aus Class Two medical was current?

The CAAP skates around the TTMRA.

[nitpicker330]

Did you read my post???

As long as the company you work for is a recognized operator in a contracting state with Australia then they recognize your checking/testing and you don't need to do an AFR. If you have an approved testing officer you could even do your CIR renewal as long as you followed the Australian testing form.

Couldn't be plainer than that.

[Mach E Avelli]

Yes Nitpicker (appropriate name methinks) I did read your post. The way it has commonly worked for an Australian CAR 217 organisation wishing to use an overseas facility and its testing officers to renew ratings has involved CASA initially sending a FOI on a junket to 'approve' the set-up and an individual or individuals to conduct the check. CASA still requires the Chief Pilot or other Delegate of the CAR 217 organisation to conduct the oral part of the test and final certification and to send the paperwork to CASA, with bottom copy of the sticky strip.
The way it works for the humble private operator is as per the CAAP 5.14-1 (0) i.e. the foreign facility can do the flying test but generally not the oral. For that, CASA get involved back home. So the candidate can do the test overseas, but must present himself back in Oz for the oral and to
have the final 'sticky strip' entry in his logbook issued by a CASA FOI.
Unless your man in Honkers has a CASA Delegation to do the whole 'sticky strip' process, he can only fill in the sections of the flight test form not related to knowledge of the regulations.

So...back to the TTMRA. How would a Part 121 check ride under the NZ system be certified for an Aussie BFR? Or is ANY entry under the NZ system in the NZ format an automatic entitlement to go flying privately on VH with no other certification? If it is, that would be a first for CASA. Someone, point me at the appropriate ruling on this, please.

[nitpicker330]

Yes sounds complicated.
All I know is that I have been told in writing that as HK is a contracting state with Oz I don't need to do AFR's every 2 years. :ok:

Saves me money then excellent. :ok:

Oh and I believe it's not called a BFR for quite a while now. It's an AFR and is required every 2 years. Correct me if I'm wrong.....:ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

AFR, BFR, whatever - it's a check done every two years unless exempt in the way you describe, i.e. in a regular check program with a contracting state airline.

But I suspect from reading all the bumpfh on the subject that some form of recognised certification would have to be in CASA's hands before you rocked up on leave and blasted off in a VH aircraft on a private mission. They state quite clearly that they retain ultimate control of such matters (as, being an ICAO contracting state, they must). Hence the additional requirements for an oral back home in Oz to renew an instrument rating.

So how would CASA monitor your AFR status if they don't regularly receive and retain your paperwork?

I shudder to think what the insurers and CASA would have said had I returned from overseas and simply renewed my Australian medical then gone flying privately on an assumption that because my last gig had been with a recognised contracting state, all was kosher. Then ended up inverted in a paddock somewhere.

[nitpicker330]

It's all ok. Lots of us have been doing just that for years.

I have it in writing from CASA.

Don't stress. :ok:

[pcx]

Nitpicker.
Any chance you could post the letter from CASA or at least details of the regulation or whatever they used to approve this.
Thanks.

[Mach E Avelli]

Hmm, suddenly this thread is very quiet. C'mon Nits, show us what ya got.

[nitpicker330]

A direct question as to whether or not we needed to do AFR in an Australian registered Aircraft with an approved Australian testing officer to fly VFR in Oz as we are under the CX check and training system in HK.

Their answer was:---

The definition in Civil Aviation Regulations for 'aeroplane proficiency
check' allows you to consider this as a flight review. The definition
refers to a proficiency check conducted by an operator in a contracting
State, which you will fall under.

However, normal prudence should be used with respect to familiarity with
any GA aircraft you may not have flown for some time.

If you have any further inquiries, do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

[nitpicker330]

Well??? No good??

[pcx]

No. All good. Thanks for that.