Gulf War 1 Chinook HC 1

[Guzz]

Hello all,

Apologies for posing another geeky question, but I'm after talking to anyone who operated the Chinook HC 1 in the first Gulf War. I've been asked to model one for Scale Aircraft Modelling magazine and rather than do the usual grey/black/green machines I rather fancy making a Gulf War example such as the ones pictured:

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr356/guzzler79/6a39e12e6a4491b1930cf338a632c92c.jpg

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr356/guzzler79/b4b78c655629b381185ffeac5c47d48e.jpg

I'm after a bit of info as to what weapons/DAS they were fitted and if anyone has any private photos they'd be willing to share and maybe have published alongside the article? (Obviously within the bounds of security cleared pictures and information.)

Thanks in advance!

Guzz.

[Evalu8ter]

Guz,
Try this:

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1991/1991%20-%200010.PDF

I'm not old enough to have flown the Mk1, but some on here are!!

The article has a few flaws; it's confusing the ALQ-156 with the ALQ-157. The latter is the IR Jammer, the former a Missile Warning System. The aircraft still had some FI mods on (such as RWR).

The minigun has stayed on the aircraft ever since - though only recently as a 'core' option.

Puma and minigun? Maybe revisit it for the Mk2.....:}

[Shackman]

Of note the RWR was put on for our adventures into Beirut, although with only a limited amount of training in what it could do; lifted straight off the Vulcan IIRC. However, it was also the first time I heard a 'Gun Dish' radar lock on for real!!

[Rigga]

I can confirm that your pics are pretty much accurate as they have the "Uckers Board" aerial on the roof of the SF cab.

The EAPS (engine dustbins), the IR "Disco lights" and the Minigun Drainpipes seem to be all that are missing from your Pics.

As these aircraft featured heavily in publicity schemes before and after the Gulf there won't be much in the way of security risks on external pictures.

What's the scale of the model you're planning?

[Guzz]

Cheers for the pointers chaps, most helpful.

Rigga, it's going to be a 1:48 scale model. I have a 1:35 scale monster that I'm decking out as an IRT cab with full Herrick fit and scratch built role inside. May take a while that one...

If anyone has any interesting GW1 Chinook tales they'd care to relate here then please feel free. May help inspire the article!

Thanks again!

Guzz.

[Rigga]

I've always thought that 1/48th was a bit of a problem scale - but I can see the problems with a 1/35th Chinook!

Best of luck.

[dragartist]

Shackman,
RWR was SRIM 4152. ARI 18228/1 we did this for the Falklands as SRIM 4152 T (T for temp) the radio Crate was on the floor and the CRT in an awful structure with a map case beside the co-pilot. We spent quite a while updating the mod in the following years. the Crate went up in the roof, necessitating removing the parachute Anchor cables and relocating the red and green lights and bell. The CRT went in the panel with a rather nice NVG filter courtesy of some boffins at Farnborough.

The RWR certainly was ex Vulcan kit. we used the equipment trays for the Temp installation

For Beirut we fitted SRIM 4084 and did a temporary lash up of ALE 40 dispensers for chaff. Again we came along afterwards and tidied up adding the flare dispensers on the pylon. and integrating the chaff dispensers into the space between the tanks. I can't recall exactly if the RWR was integrated to the dispensers to begin with for Beirut. I remember designing a switch cover that was useless. passengers being told to press the tit if they saw anything coming. The dispensers soon emptied before a delay was introduced. I certainly recall the stories of the RWR detecting the Russian made radar guided guns. but I think it was the Buccaneer. hence the rush to fit Chaff to the Chinook. Made it all worthwhile being one of the backroom boys doing something useful and in quick time.

Some of us civies could be depended upon to work round the clock when the chips were down. (sorry just had to get at least one dig in, in relation to another thread on here that I refuse to contribute too because it makes me sick)

At the time of GW 1 I had moved onto other things but finished up with the worlds stock of Mil Spec 38999 connectors at Wyton. These were for the MAWs. Litton AN/AAR47. (We fitted the same kit on the Nimrod R but integrated it with BOZ). Great bunch of guys at the Chinook AEDIT devised this mod and other mods for GW1. I can remember sharing all our drawings with them.

[RUCAWO]

Your best bet for the model would be the Italeri 1.48th HC.1 with their resin and etched add on set, be aware the are more expensive than the kit but it is made by CMK and the individual bits are available from them. Revell also market the Italeri kit with different markings and it can usually be found at a lower price.

[NutLoose]

I started many moons ago drawing 1/35th decal sheets for the earlier Chinooks, but never got round to finishing them, this is as far as I got, I have a couple of the 1/35 kits and intended doing an early OCU version.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/modelling/Chinookupdatespoiled.jpg

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/modelling/Chinooktestshotupdateweb.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Pure talent Nutty :D :ok:

[Shackman]

Drag Artist

I duly stand corrected. I must admit I couldn't remember the kit/fitting in the ac before we went out to Beirut, but I do now have a faint memory of a morning's instruction on the OCU on its use and then listening to various radar signatures (as opposed to about 50hrs of ECM/ECCM instruction on MOTU ten years before - but that's another story). I do however remember the Chaff fitting with manual release and the instructions to crewmen/pax to fire if they saw anything or if we yelled out from the cockpit!

I can also say how much we appreciated the speed at which kit COULD be sourced and fitted /cleared 'when the chips were down'.

[tucumseh]

This may differ somewhat from the above first hand recollections, and is taken from the RTS.


Approved DAS / Armaments authorised under Service Deviation in Chinook HC Mk1

Unspecified Chaff & Flare (Aug 88) under SRIM 4084


GE M134 Minigun 7.62mm (Aug 91) under STF 138A/150


Loral AN/AAR 47 MAW was schemed but not issued (Apr – Jun 91), but then issued in Jan 92. A twin fit was then authorised 4 days later. Modified in Jul 92 under STF 148B/148C.


Skyguardian /13 RWR (Jan 92) under STF 54A/54B


A modified AN/AAR 47 MAW fit was authorised for one trial only in Mar 92


M130 C&F Parallel Firing (Aug 92) under STF 155


Improved Integration AAR 47 and ALQ 156 MAW under STF 177 authorised for one trial only in Aug 92


M60D Armament System under STF 158/159 and SEM 108/109 (Jul/Aug 92)



NB – This doesn’t meant other equipments weren’t fitted. It is just a record of what was approved.

No DAS or Armament equipments were fitted by DA Mod in the HC Mk1 in the period 1987 to conversion to Mk2.



In the period Nov 93 to Sept 94, none of the above were authorised to be fitted to Chinook HC Mk2.



ALQ 157 IR Jammer was approved for fit as Role Equipment under STF/Chinook/204 but crew were not permitted to rely upon it. In Mar 94 its Transmitters were repositioned but the status remained the same.

[BEagle]

NB – This doesn’t meant other equipments weren’t fitted. It is just a record of what was approved.

Uh-oh, that'll get Weird Wally all wound up about the wacky wirelesses he thinks were fitted to ZD576, so that the crew could work with the little green men he alleges were scurrying about the Mull of Kintyre in 1994....:uhoh:

[chinook240]

Of note the RWR was put on for our adventures into Beirut,

RWR was fitted for CORPORATE, see BN here:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5595/bn41.jpg

[Guzz]

Wow!

Thanks for all the info chaps, very much appreciated. As far as my little brain can work out, I won't be too far wrong if I fit my model out with miniguns up front (including external chutes), ALQ-157 IRJ, and a 60D on the ramp. As for aerials etc I'll just check photos and what not of the specific cab I end up building. No MAWS ie 47 or 156 were fitted around this period then? Cant see any on the picture Evalu8ter posted.

As I said in an earlier post, if anyone has any interesting tales they feel they can share I'd be even more grateful. Might put an interesting slant on the article.

Many thanks once again for all the gen.

Guzz.

PS: Nutloose, lovely decal sheets. Should get them published mate!

[dragartist]

Nice picture of BN in Falklands, The only one I have ever seen in colour. Note the radome was blue. made from an aircraft grade ABS (acrylonitrile butadiene Styrene) F all use in UV or fatigue conditions but what Boeing insisted on when they approved the design for SRIM 4152. Could be a ILAFFT article in Air Clues. I spent an age developing the UHMWHDPE version including UV exposure trials in JTTRE Cloncurry with extensive testing by RAPRA, RARDE and DGDQA at Woolwich before they shut down another useful department.

Now then Tuc is spot on. The problem with all these gash mods designed by enthusiastic amateurs is often the lack of configuration control and rigour. we allowed our in house competent design organisations to wither away over the years. the procedures set out in AP 100C - 40 demanded that and Service modifications were always covered by DA Advice and a Cover Mod. It's Ok doing things quickly when the need arises but you do have to go back and sweep up afterwards. SRIM 4084 appears to be the last time this was done. I hope it is the same today requiring his Airships waiver to deviate.

[Evalu8ter]

Drag,
We did a root and branch overhaul of the DAS a couple of years back;

Selex Galileo plays key role in UK MoD?s Project Baker | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2010/05/07/selex-galileo-plays-key-role-in-uk-mod%E2%80%99s-project-baker/)

I'm pleased to say that the rigour brought to the programme by an excellent PM meant that, at last, the aircraft got a DefStan compliant DAS fitted with Design Incorporation where appropriate - one that is now seen very much as an exemplar of what to fit and how to fit it. That said, the fact that the 'gash' mods put on by people at the double lasted so long is a testament to their efforts.

PS - It was Chinook 240's pic, not mine. I was still at school when he was down there!!

[tucumseh]

Dragartist

It is indeed very difficult to interpret the Mk1 RTS. A plethora of very poorly articulated Service Deviations, mainly of Special Trials Fits; almost all non-compliant.

What always struck me was that not a single one of them was in the Mk2 RTS or Cover Mod’d for Mk2 during conversion. Yet the CH*RT report of 1992 says they were meant to be. I’m sure this must be wrong, in the same way the dates of issue for the SDs (in my post above) are many months after the kit was actually installed. On the other hand, some SD’s are marked both “trials pending” and “Fleet Fit”, which is a contradiction in terms.

But I hesitate to criticise the IPT (1999-on) because configuration management on Chinook has always been a *******, for three reasons. First, Boeing. Say no more. Second, other IPTs buying and installing kit without bothering to talk to the aircraft IPT or Boeing. Last, and the most obvious; under Alcock (1991-96) configuration control was a no-no and unfunded. Even CDP (Walmsley), who shared Alcock’s views on fiscal prudence, probity and airworthiness, admitted this to the Public Accounts Committee in 1999 when confirming the Mk2 was not under control, 7 years after CH&RT. As stated by Evaluator, this continued for many years after that, more or less confirming CDP’s statement wasn’t so much an admission, as a boast. It is good to see some of the CH*RT recommendations being implemented, albeit 20 years late.

[NutLoose]

Yup RWR aerials went on for The Falklands

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Aviation/RAF/PumaRecovery2.jpg

[GreenKnight121]

The photo tag says "PumaRecovery2Falklands".

When & where was that taken (aircraft is "BR" not "BN")?

[NutLoose]

It's was taken at RAF Odiham in the same time frame, simply has the Falklands fit on it, plastic blades RWR and towel rail removed from between the windows and up onto the aft pylon.
I really should name my photos more accurately :E


Here u go

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Aviation/RAF/PumaRecovery.jpg

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Aviation/RAF/BS18Sqn.jpg

[Chugalug2]

tuc:-
It is indeed very difficult to interpret the Mk1 RTS. A plethora of very poorly articulated Service Deviations, mainly of Special Trials Fits; almost all non-compliant.
Seems the most authoritative answer for the OP. Stick what you like, how you like, on your model. That's what happened to the aircraft itself, after all.

[Rigga]

Marvellous.
Gents, I now remember the fuss made by the EA when Boeing received their first MLU aircraft, over the pond in Pensylvania, and proceeded to throw all the "unapproved" bits into Boeings' bins.

A signal came back tut-suite to make a record of the mods actually fitted to each Chinny and "De-mod" the aircraft before sending them away. I suppose Boeings were refusing to have any part in these many potentially (& allegedly) unapproved "improvements".

I can think of half-a-dozen of these off-the-top, right now. (Although, I'll have forgotten most of them by tomorrow!)

Thank you for reminding me how gash things really were (are?)

[tucumseh]

I can think of half-a-dozen of these off-the-top, right now. (Although, I'll have forgotten most of them by tomorrow!)

At the time of the first issue of the Interim (Switch On Only clearance) Mk2 RTS (November 1993 , although denied by MoD) there were 63 (SIXTY THREE) Category 1 SDs in the Chinook Mk1 RTS relating to Service Engineered Mods or Special Trial Fits. ("Category 1 applies to SDs giving clearances for Service regulated flying not within the envelope and other provisions of the current CA/MA release for the aircraft or equipment concerned")

However, it should always be noted that Part 1 of the RTS (the CAR/MAR) is mandated upon ACAS (see Philip Review), meaning an SD (i.e. Part 2) is not permitted to negate the basic airworthiness of the Build Standard noted in the CAR/MAR. The Safety Case (or argument) MUST be updated for each SD. This is routinely ignored; in fact, outlawed by the CE at the time in question.

Equipment introduced by SD "is to be assessed both in terms of the safety of the equipment itself in the air, and on its interaction with other aircraft systems, aircraft handling and/or stability." This, too, was outlawed in even stronger terms by both CE and CDP, and is the underlying cause of, for example, Tornado/Patriot, Nimrod, Sea King. Put another way, "Functional Safety".

When the approving officer signs an SD, he is signing to say he is personally satisfied all the above regulations, and more, have been satisfied. ***** Hell, that's a lot of false declarations. But that's ok, because the MAA have condoned it. Must be coincidence - I got a confirmatory letter today!

[Rigga]

Hi Tuc,
Yep - I seen to think it was mostly SEMs that were the offending articles, though there was also quite a lot of partiallly embodied Mods (looms and bracketry) that were all carefully removed and placed in boxes to wait for the Cab to come back.

However, in true blue organisation, the Cabs never came back to Gutersloh or Laarbruch so boxes of old bits remained there until the places were closed and no-one know what to do with them...so they were mostly binned anyway.