Progression pay hit

[Onceapilot]

Well, that is it. Due to the direct link between Gov policy and the AFPRB, future pay reviews will claw back any progression pay benefit you thought had escaped the latest hit on those who have no choice, or union, or rights. :ouch:

OAP

[BruisedCrab]

Que? The armed forces were specifically stated to be exempted from the ending of public sector pay progression.

[lj101]

OAP

It's ok.

Spending Review: Osborne Wields The Axe Again (http://news.sky.com/story/1108264/spending-review-osborne-wields-the-axe-again)

The Ministry of Defence will see its budget maintained in cash terms at £24bn, which will mean a real-terms cut of 1.9%, but money for equipment will rise by 1% a year.

Its capital budget will also be held at £8.7bn, representing a real-terms reduction of 2.3%.

There will be no further reductions in troop levels, although the Chancellor confirmed the civilian workforce will be slashed.

And fines levied against banks for the Libor rate-rigging scandal will be used to fund the Armed Forces Covenant, setting out the nation's obligation to troops in perpetuity.

The Chancellor insisted his measures, which only spared schools, the NHS, overseas aid and the intelligence services, were necessary and fair.

Nurses, police officers and teachers will all be hit by the loss of progressive pay, which sees them earn more each year regardless of performance, with only the armed forces exempt.

:ok:

[downsizer]

Watch it disappear in the NEM....

[GipsyMagpie]

I bet my pension that incremental pay disappears in next afprb. But here's hoping they start specialist pay for flying instructors...

[FATTER GATOR]

Nothing more than idle speculation. Your pay increments will not disappear at the next AFPRB, or the NEM. I would bet my pension on it...perhaps fewer increments over the same period to reach the same pay.

[NutLoose]

I for one am glad the Civil Service annual pay rises have been removed, the rest of the Country do not get them and indeed a lot of people haven't had one for years, some even taking pay drops to ensure redundancies do not happen in their workplaces.

[alfred_the_great]

Nutloose - I presume you support a similar sentiment for Service Personnel?

[NutLoose]

NO..

Not in the slightest.

[brokenlink]

From my perspective I cannot remember having an automatic pay rise within the MoD as a CS for many, many of years. No problem with levelling the playing field but the trouble is the way the media has reported this issue makes it appear that the majority of Civil Servants get this perk when in fact the opposite is true.

[clicker]

Nutloose, I don't know what its like for the civvies in the services but with the police support staff it was not quite the pay rise every year that a lot of folk think it is.

For my role, and others were similar, we had a set scale for the job which was three pay scales. Within each of these pay scales were two other increments.

So when I started I was on the bottom. For that I took emergency calls and I got a small increase for two years then they stopped until I passed various courses, became a radio operator and so moved up to the next scale. Again I did more courses to operate more kit and moved up to the final pay scale. Once I got to the top of that scale I stayed there for 19 years and the only increases I got were for inflation. Each pay increase was about 2k per pay scale with the yearly steps around 700 pounds

Indeed we got clobbered before not long after I started when we got a below inflation rise for three years with a promise it would be made up later, that bit never happened and over the 24 years I did the job we never got to keep up with price indexes.

My last salary before I retired was less than a Flying Officer on level 10 and that was with 20 per cent extra for working 24/7 shifts.

[NutLoose]

I get where your coming from Clicker, but you were getting pay awards at the rate of inflation, so you were staying at a level.

I know people that haven't had a rise for about 5 odd years who are in effect going backwards in their earnings.
I know one guy started at a Company on a competitive wage, he worked there for 7 and never once got a rise despite asking, eventually he had to leave the job he loved as he simply couldn't afford to stay, the Company then had to take on a replacement, found of course they couldn't find anyone as good nor as experienced for the money, so had to employ a less skilled chap on a higher more competitive wage.... And hence the merry go round started again with the new guy, no pay rises etc..

[Trim Stab]

Have to say I am with Nutloose on this. It makes no economic sense to exempt a sector of public services if the government wants to trim the budget and control inflation. It's a bummer for everybody. Many people in private sector have taken massive pay cuts in order to try to save their employer and avoid redundancy, and it's their taxes that pay for these non-performance related automatic pay rises. Should be same rule for all public sector.

[SVK]

Have to say I am with Nutloose on this. It makes no economic sense to exempt a sector of public services if the government wants to trim the budget and control inflation. It's a bummer for everybody. Many people in private sector have taken massive pay cuts in order to try to save their employer and avoid redundancy, and it's their taxes that pay for these non-performance related automatic pay rises. Should be same rule for all public sector.

Arguably TS, it could be said that we haven't saved our employer, thousands have been made redundant and it has taken/will take years to balance the books. However, the MoD has come up with a financial plan that doesn't involve cutting pay progression. Indeed, for those Service Personnel of the future, pay progression may be seen as an incentive / retention factor as opposed to 'being the norm' in today's public sector.

[Onceapilot]

The trouble is that now the Gov has decided that progression pay is a bad thing, the AFPRB will have to factor it as a perk in their "pay comparison" equation. This will depress overall Service pay in future AFPRB reviews. Service personel will be worse off almost as if the progression pay had been cut anyway!:ooh:

OAP

[Melchett01]

The trouble is that now the Gov has decided that progression pay is a bad thing

So that means they will either have to pick a representative salary at some mid point in the rank range, thus incurring outrage for overpaying people starting at the bottom of the scale whilst simultaneously incurring outrage for underpaying people at top of the scale who have the experience and qualifications.

Plus, by doing away with the incremements you potentially move to bigger bigger pay rises on promotion as the gap your representative pay band between ranks will be bigger than the current gaps between the current top level / bottom levels as you climb the ranks. A nice juicy pay rise might seem good from a morale perspective, but it does potentially run the risk of incurring a pension related tax bill as a bigger jump in salary will potentially put your new, increased pension closer to the annual contribution limits.

Plus, I have to say I don't have a great deal of sympathy for people in the private sector moaning about how bad it is - part of me thinks that chickens are simply coming home to roost. For too long in the 90s and 00s, there were elements coining it in with their bonuses and jollies, all on the back of an unsustainable economic model of producing frankly over priced, poor value goods and services. Now that model is unravelling and we are seeing the past decade's economic boom for what it actually was - a case of the Emperor's new clothes. Whilst all that was going on, the Armed Forces were getting no bonuses, sub-inflationary pay progression and a generally deteriorating set of Ts&Cs. And now we are expected to fall on our swords just to satisfy the politics of envy? Really?!

[clicker]

Fair point NutLoose and happy to give ground accordingly.

Does remind me however of discussions in the control room wondering if 31k (including the 20% shift allowance) was fair pay that what we did.

As an example I was one of two controllers that was on duty at Shoreham airport when the Hurricane crashed (And got no thanks from our command for the hard work we did that day)

[Pontius Navigator]

I can see the point in pay progression (using only the military pattern) where someone long time serving in the rank will have gathered, and hopefully use, their wealth of experience gained through time.

Looking at officers pay, I believe the AFPRB set progression limits based on expected time in the rank. For instance after, I think 6 years, a flt lt could expect to be promoted to sqn ldr or have topped at his rank/time experience level.

In earlier days a Cranwell flt lt on the General List had his pay progression frozen at the 6 year point. A Supplementary List officer, who was expected to retire at no later that age 38 we granted pay progression each year. When that was abandoned and we all reached full scale at the 6 year point I benefited by jumping some 12 years worth :).

That CS now no longer earn pay progression (and I see it was not wholesale across all Ministries) might seem equable or unjust depending on how you look at it. On one course we had a brand new direct-entry D-grade CS, so brand new he blushed when he had to answer a question. No way was he worth the same salary as a long serving D-grade CS. I would call that unjust.

[Willard Whyte]

They could always do what they did a few years ago and increase the number of increments within each rank. Fairly sure it used to be 6 increments before it rose to 9.

EDIT: April 2001 it rose from 6 to 9 increments.

[Wander00]

When I was in local government (70s) there was a move by NALGO, their union, to abandon incremental points (usually 4 levels in each grade then, before the spinal scale) on the grounds that the top level was "the rate for the job" and everyone on that band should be paid at that rate. Employers did n ot agree and, ISTR, suggested that "the rate" was the lowest point on the scale, and everyone should get that.........unsurprisingly the whole idea went quiet!

[Sideshow Bob]

I for one am glad the Civil Service annual pay rises have been removed, the rest of the Country do not get them and indeed a lot of people haven't had one for years, some even taking pay drops to ensure redundancies do not happen in their workplaces.

I also know someone who hasn't had a pay rise for years (not even a rise in line with inflation) and actually her pay has decreased (earning less each year) as her pension contributions have been increased. She is in fact one of those dreadful Civil Servants, but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good rumour and bigotry.

The average Civil Service work for a lot less than their service equivalent and for a lot less pension.

[langleybaston]

Devil will be in the detail.

There is some logic in short incremental scales in my opinion.

Come in at the bottom, get trained, get ticks in box, get better, get a rise.

In my old mob, the Met Office of MoD there was not a lot you could do with a new assistant, certainly not send to an airfield as a solo unsupervised observer. But observing was the basic grade, so, as I said, a short scale made [and makes] sense. This predated performance pay, which was not necessary, in that, if the chain thought you could cut the mustard they sent you observing and if not they could say goodbye as long as the decision was early.

Again, on promotion there are jobs that cannot be done in the first year, or they would not be worth doing.

What is nonsense is a long scale ....... unless a worker is promoted after say five years they are both fully trained and not going anywhere.

It will be interesting to see where on an existing scale say 1,2,3,4,5 they peg the new pay amount. They cannot get away with 1. and nobody believes they will offer 5 !

[SWBKCB]

I also know someone who hasn't had a pay rise for years (not even a rise in line with inflation) and actually her pay has decreased (earning less each year) as her pension contributions have been increased. She is in fact one of those dreadful Civil Servants, but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good rumour and bigotry.

Spot on - also, for those with short memories, don't forget that in the times of high inflation Civil Service pay rises were kept well below inflation as part of govt. policy.

Private sector seems quite happy to rush ahead in boom times but soon forgets all about that when times are bad...

[Just This Once...]

What is nonsense is a long scale ....... unless a worker is promoted after say five years they are both fully trained and not going anywhere.

Seems to describe me perfectly!

I'm on level 32 of my pay scale with a little bit more to go.

[theboywide]

We need to be smarter on our increment system and start paying for experience and qualifications instead of on time basis.

Why is a Flt Lt OCU instructor paid the same as a Flt Lt Test Pilot and a Flt Lt front line copilot? There is no financial incentive for bettering oneself without getting promoted. I know there is PA spine, but by the time that kicks in highly qualified guys will have been marching time on Flt Lt 9 for a good 6 or 7 years.
In my opinion either PA spine should commence much earlier or some thought should be given to a qualification based pay structure to give an incentive to people that aspire for flying excellence and not that extra stripe.

I love the Air Force, always have, but what the bean counters have missed is that its gone from being a way of life to being a job. Every little chip at the pay/rates/standards/working times etc etc means that Joe Bloggs feels more and more devalued and the extra hours that went in for love of the job, in the knowledge that he is being looked after, are a thing of the past.
The RAF has got my commitment having seen the better days, but it needs to start considering how they can keep the new generation of experience now.

[adminblunty]

The HM treasury documentation saying:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/209036/spending-round-2013-complete.pdf





'Departments will be putting in place plans to end automatic time-served
progression pay in the civil service by 2015-16. In addition, substantial reforms to progression

pay will be taken forward or are already underway for teachers, the health service, prisons and

the police – ensuring that public sector workers do not receive pay increases purely as a result of

time in post.'

is out of kilter with :

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/185542/civil_service_pay_guidance_2013_14.pdf.pdf





'Progression pay


2.3 Increases arising from contractual progression pay increments will continue to be paid where such increments are a legal entitlement. Departments are encouraged to include contractual progression increments to which there is a legal entitlement as part of the one per cent award.


Reform of progression pay arrangements


2.4 Departments have the opportunity to put forward plans to remove automatic time-served progression pay. Treasury will consider proposals for flexibility in relation to the one per cent (see paragraph 2.2) if they are linked to substantive plans to do so. To qualify for consideration, departments must provide a robust and fully costed business case for their proposals that offers clear value for money for the taxpayer and includes the removal of legally binding progression arrangements. In order to assist Treasury’s assessment of their business case, departments may wish to refer to the additional guidance set out in Annex E when drawing up proposals.
2.5 Any proposal should be included with other information provided to the Treasury as part of the 2015-16 Spending Round. The supporting business case should if possible be provided to the Cabinet Office at the same time and in any case by 6 May 2013 at the latest. Any well-developed case that would breach the one per cent policy should also be referred to the Treasury. '
as well as being breach of contract when that pay progression is written into the contract of employment. However very few central government depts have contractual pay progression.

HM Treasury suggested to depts last year that they should buy out contractual pay progression, however HM Treasury didn't approve any cases to buy it out.

I left the RAF in 2008 and ended up in the Civil Service, it was clear to me the only way to get a pay rise was to get promoted and to move Depts to maximise the differences between dept pay scales (Cabinet Office pay is awful(MOD B1 equiv £44K pa(min)), MOD (B1 £56.7K pa (Min))is OK, HMRC (MOD B1 Equiv £63K pa (Min) is very good, OFSTED (MOD B1 Equiv £69K pa (Min)) is great. Result 35% pay increase in less than 5 years.

[kintyred]

Tricky subject methinks. I took the trouble to qualify as an A1 instructor and had the benefit of an annual increment practically every year of my 30 years in the Service and yet managed to get to only half the pay of my contemporary who is a TRE for a civilian airline! Don't get me wrong, money is not why I joined and I wouldn't swap seats with him for all the tea in China but an organisation that hopes to retain high calibre individuals is going to have to find a way of rewarding them. I like the idea of instructor pay....obviously (!) but I think it should be extended to all sorts of qualifications (CR, IRE, Auth etc).

[Pontius Navigator]

kintyred, let's detach your idea of additional pay for CR, IRE, Auth etc from a purely aircrew centric approach.

Whilst I achieved various command categories, ratings, leader etc I also did weapons, int, security, admin, audit, contract and so on. Let us suppose that each of these qualified for additional cash rewards. Where is the money to come from?

That is a complete no brainer. It would come from exactly the same size pay pot as your pay comes from now. Assuming you got all the appropriate ticks then you would earn little more than you earn now, but on the way you would earn considerably less.

As a first tour, no-nothing, hot-shot you would understandably be paid half what a similarly newly-qualified fg off/flt lt earns now. Learn from PAYD.

I leave you to work out the rest.

[theboywide]

Cut air ranks so they're in proportion to the current size and structure.
Redistribute pay to provide "expertise" increments.
Don't get me wrong - I believe this should be the model for all trades. I only talk aircrew because that's what I know.

We've got to stop focussing on this antiquated structure of promotion and pay if we want an Air Force for the future.

[Dysonsphere]

Why on earth should anyone get payrise for doing the same job year on year, is complete crap. If you can pass further exams etc or rise to a more senior job then fine. But noway just for time in job. Are you saying we should pay a dustbin man more just because hes been doing the job for 30 years.

[switch_on_lofty]

Biting...I have to take issue with the dustbin person example.

You cannot just mark time as an Officer. Once you've finished flying training, got your C of C / CR and done a front line tour or few you are continuously getting better and more valuable to the Service. Realistically a lot of people then become instructors or Flt Cdrs (which they are selected for in a variety of ways) etc where they have more responsibility, are trained to an even higher standard and without any form of pay progression would be on the same money as a Lt / Flt Lt who has just been promoted but is still holding for one of their flying courses.

[Pontius Navigator]

Flt Lt who has just been promoted but is still holding for one of their flying courses.

It's a rat's nest.

Would you freeze your holding officer's pay? Maybe, but luck of the draw.

Currently there is an element of lottery anyway. SiL was 5th on the list for wg cdr and got picked up - right place, right time, and presumably right skill sets. Having got picked up, in the right job, is now polishing his CV!

[Chest Poker]

Might one just point out, in response to the poor Flt Lt test pilot et al who are all paid the same..... it is not all about pay.

Pilots in the RAF, along with 'flying pay' are paid well. Don't be greedy, if it is not enough, ask an 'erk to show you how to use JPA and Eject one self !!

[VinRouge]

Someone has already commented though, PVR and loose 100% of your FP (30% of salary in my case) for a year.

[SRENNAPS]

I also know someone who hasn't had a pay rise for years (not even a rise in line with inflation) and actually her pay has decreased (earning less each year) as her pension contributions have been increased. She is in fact one of those dreadful Civil Servants, but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good rumour and bigotry.

Yep! Same here. To me she is known as my wife. So many people here have absolutely no idea of the truth or what is going on....and to be honest it has going on for years. It is criminal:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SRENNAPS]

To be honest I am so cheesed off with reading some of the rubbish here about Civil Servants that if I had the chance I would introduce a scheme where when a Blue Suiter was posted to a Civil Service establishment they would get the exact same terms and conditions as the equivalent rank in the Civil Service; pay, pension, allowances, holidays, rented accommodation rights, everything! When they return to front line service (or do a temporary detachment back to Front Line duties) then their terms and conditions would be re-established, without reimbursement of any loss incurred during the time spent in the role and if they have made more, then obviously they would not have to pay that back either. Even on the long term affects that it may have on the pension!

I have known many Blue Suiters (Officers and SNCOs) who have spent years in these establishments, taking every advantage of the system, cushy 0830-1630 times swanning off down the Gym every day for an hour and a half, strolling across to McDonalds for a mid morning coffee and spending a great deal of time working out what allowances they can weedle out of the system. Yes, I agree that many do not want to be there and they make every effort to get posted out, but there are a significant number that know that they are on a good screw.

Sorry, but I am sick of reading some of the drivel printed here, that in affect is about my wife, her employment and her terms and conditions. If some of you serving members were treated half as badly as the “lower and middle ranks” of the civil service, you would have PVRed years ago.

Rant over:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SRENNAPS]

Oops, I might have posted this in the wrong thread. I am sure there was another CS thread round here somewhere :confused::confused::O:O

[NutLoose]

First off to those that posted about knowing people in the Civil service that do not get annual pay rises.

My disagreement was with those that get it, not those that do not, so it's not really relevant, although some do not get one, a lot do and that is what I agree with being stopped to bring it inline with the rest of the workforce..



As for the is it right for a Flt Lt OCU pilot, Test Pilot, and Front Line Pilot all being on the same rate, they want to look at the Civilian equivalent..
As an example Engineering wise

If you are working shifts you get shift pay, not that it counts to service folks.

You then get pay for licences held ie say Airframe, Engines, avionics, and certification

You then get type pay say 737... 747... 757 an increment for each type

However, I've seen cases at one airline that were actually still paying type pay on an aircraft type they no longer had..

Perhaps something along that line would work, an increment based on service qualifications, and bin the time served ones? But remember these can go down as well as up.

[Willard Whyte]

swanning off down the Gym every day for an hour and a half

Optional, one hopes. I would have gladly PVR'd if such nonsense were compulsory.

[Onceapilot]

Quote WW
"Optional, one hopes. I would have gladly PVR'd if such nonsense were compulsory."

Only optional if you meet the standard these days:uhoh:.

OAP

[kintyred]

Pontius,

Very happy to see all useful qualifications rewarded....aircrew or not. Part of the problem with military pay is that it doesn't reward those who stay. As a 25 year old none of my peers earned anything like what I was paid and when I retired one of my contemporaries who joined the airlines after 20 years in the mob earns more than I did even though he is only a copilot. If joiners have to be paid less to enable a truly progressive pay scale to be created then so be it. I don't think recruitment is a problem for the military.....retention most certainly is.