Not your Problem?

[Fotze]

I do not often feel compelled to write on this forum but after reading some of recent posts regarding recruitment with Cathay I really feel the need to interject.

Some of the advise and opinions being offered about the “recruitment Ban” are coming from people who have no idea about the realities of joining Cathay at this delicate time.

I can fully understand that when you are on the outside looking in it is very difficult to really understand what is going on in our company.

You really want the job and hate the fact that a few guys in the union are causing trouble!!!

You don’t have to be in the union anyway, your happy with the package being offered!!!!

“It’s not YOUR problem” right?

WRONG, VERY WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

How many days after you start do you think that everything that happens in this place is going to start affecting YOUR life and you start to live and breath the awful situation WE have all been living for the last couple of years. VERY VERY soon it will also become YOUR problem.

Come on and join Cathay and see what it feels like when every time you scan your ID card over the entrance door of Cathay City you wonder if it is going to let you in, or every time you have a company letter headed envelope in your mailbox you wonder if its another demotion or sacking for no apparent reason.

These are just some of the realities for the guys and girls already in the company. Now you’re thinking of joining Cathay to replace the 49 people that got sacked. Sacked incidentally en mass by the management in order scare the **** out of the rest of us and make us all roll over and allow them to cut our conditions of service as and when it suites them.

So what are the realities for you?

Never being able to join a union again as long as you live (Big Deal!!!)

How about every time you turn up to dispatch you know that people are looking at you with disgust. Sure they will be professional, but how many of them are going to have a drink with you down route? It won’t take long before you start to feel very isolated indeed.
I am not a militant person, however I won’t be socialising with you and I can promise you, not many of us will.

Have you ever stopped to think WHY this ban is in place?

It is there to send a message to management that they cannot go on treating their employees the way they are. Why do you think the united nations are now investigating the human rights violations?

By joining now you are undermining everything we are trying to achieve and turning Cathay into a Contract Airline instead of a Career Airline.

What makes you think that if you join the company you are going to be immune from all of this?

Hong Kong is a hard place to live at the best of times and takes a great deal of getting used to without any of this other **** going on. I urge you to think very seriously before you decide to come here, instead of that “dream Job, it might just turn out to be your worst nightmare”.

Just as a final note, I couldnt really give a **** about the negative comments that come back regarding this post. I am just telling it like it is, if you chose not to believe me then fair enough. You make your own bed.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Japan Airlines Captains Association?...........now that sounds like an inclusive place to work........must have great CRM there too!

Chuck

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

Fotze,old chap

Now you’re thinking of joining Cathay to replace the 49 people that got sacked.

your mates who accepted the upgrades replaced the group of Captains in the '49s.

[Capt.CenterLink]

You guys sit back on your $150K pluss a year somthing salary and dictate to a guy in G.A. not to accept a position with CX because of the recruitment ban.

OK I would whole heartedly - NOT accept a position within the company if you weak pricks had enough pride to not accept an FO upgrade or Command upgrade.

BUT seeing you are all hypocrites and are taking upgrades - WHY!! WHY THE F&#K WHY? should I be any different than YOU!!

You're all moving ahead with your career's........taking upgrades and the pay rise that goes with it!

THIS HAS TO BE A JOKE RIGHT? BUT WHERE'S THE PUNCH LINE?

Can some one please expalin the Logic and Fairness in this pathetic blackmail / idle threat attempt?

Or will the usual loosers come back and try threaten some more with no logic or reasoning.......

Answers much appreciated.





:mad:

[Wizofoz]

Good question,asked several times and NEVER answered by the HKAOA. Why didn't the recruitment ban extend to an upgrade ban?

Just as effective....but I guess it would mean Cathay pilots making sacrifices, rather than just insisting upon them from others.

[Capt.CenterLink]

The internal effect of company Pilots not accepting an upgrade would have a FAR FAR GREATER effect on the company - detremental even.

BUT they expect to use "US" outsiders as PAWNS becaue they dont have the GUTS to stick up for their own mates - instead they go take their jobs and all the benefits of a promotion and sit back threaten outsiders, and pretending they are helping the cause.

Trying to prove that they are "all for one and one for all".

WHAT RUBBISH

LEAD BY EXAMPLE YOU GUYS AND KEEP IT FAIR.............:mad:

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[southflyer]

Centerlink,

It happens everywhere there are unions....the top guys are OK, while the bottom are expendable......I call it union power

Reject pilot

[MT Edelstone56]

frankg

A thought out answer appropriate.You give an impression of zero self-sacrifice in a time when desperate pilots refusing jobs.

CX interviewing 35 in Sydney in June.Someone hinted earlier CX running out of suitable candidates.Appreciate the tough selection process but for info` a dozen of these people I know are early to mid thirties,10000 hrs,most on EFIS jet.Info provided just as an insight of the pilot market at present.

Wouldn`t cross your picket line.

Somebody please leave contact details of the union,I have a few questions I would prefer answered off a public forum.

[fire wall]

Bulldog69, for there to be a picket line there would have to be a strike which there is not. Were the members of the AOA to walk out then this would be a totally different story however that is not, and I suspect will not be the case if past performance by this self serving group is anything to go by.

Oh yeah, please be advised accordingly.

[Fotze]

You guys just don’t get it do you!!!!


There is a ban in place to try and force the management back to the negotiating table. At present they are choosing to manage their workers through intimidation and fear. They want to be able to cut our pay and conditions as and when they feel like it with no resistance from a scared work force.

By taking a position now you are playing into their hands and undermining everything we are trying to achieve.

As I said before “What makes you think this is not your problem?”

As soon as you arrive in Hong Kong you will realise that the job you have so desperately wanted is under threat. Your housing is going to be cut (not might be, IS going to be cut!!) Your rest days will become fewer, you will see more 3-man crews hence more fatigue. I bet they even promised you a 13-month bonus? Guess how much bonus I got last year? ZERO!!!!

By accepting a position now you are telling this management “hey, we can kick the **** out of these guys, take away all their conditions of service, and people STILL want to join!!!”

So if you want to join a CAREER airline then please help us make this a company worth joining, it doesn’t sound like it now but it will be of great benefit to you also. At the moment you can’t see the wood for the trees.

[Fotze]

“I suspect will not be the case if past performance by this self serving group is anything to go by”.

With comments like this, what GROUP do you think you will be in if you join Cathay.

If you don’t have fair representation the company will take away what ever they can get away with. What do you think is more important to them, your moral or the bottom line?

The HKAOA is a representative body of the vast majority of Cathay Pacific pilots,
are you going to have your own little new joiner group?

What representation are YOU going to have?

[Wizofoz]

Fotze,

Everything you say is exactley correct, and that's exactley the problem!

There ARE enough people who WILL join Cathay under the current conditions. I'm not going to argue the morality of it, it's just a FACT!

Therefore (and yes I'm repeating myself) the ban simply won't WORK!

As you can see, there are pilots who can find enough justification to join. As you said, the ban is to try and force the company to negotiate, but it is FAILING!

All this policy is doing is hurting less fortunate pilots by giving tham the choice of missing out on Cathay, or joining as an out-cast. I'm sorry, but no amount of rationalisation has convinced anybody that you have the interests of future Cathay pilots in mind at all.

My argument is not so much whether the ban is right or wrong (Though my own opinion is that it is wrong), but that it simply won't work.

Are you going to keep pursuing a failed strategy, or re-group and find a course that will achieve your aims?

[Fotze]

Wizofoz

If you are really that naive then you MUST come and join Cathay, you’re exactly the type of guy the current management are looking for!!!!!!!

[Wizofoz]

And with this attitude you ask for peoples support? if reason is missing, threats and intimidation will do.

You're right frankg, I'm out of here.

I honestly hope the ban works. It would be a tragedy if you had pesuaded people to sacrifice in vain. If, as I believe, it does not, I can see you becoming bitter and hateful as did so many involved in the 89 dispute.

If you win, good luck to you. If you loose, try not to let it poison the rest of your lfe.

[Fotze]

Wizofoz

All this bitterness is born out of shear frustration. You do not have the first clue about what it’s like to be in the middle of this mess.

When I decided to come to Cathay I was faced with a similar predicament, everyone on this forum told me it was bad here but I thought I knew best. It was my big break, surely it can’t be that bad. I wasn’t interested in Unions so I was convinced everything would be OK.

I have only been here a couple of years and things have already deteriorated quite badly during this time and I can only see it going one way.

You can choose not too believe me if you wish but I put my hand on my heart and say that given the choice now, there is definitely no way on this gods earth that I would join Cathay Pacific Airways until this industrial unrest is over once and for all.

It’s bad enough being here and in the union, but to come here as a Scab, YOU MUST BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!

[Rod Von Eddington]

Wizofoz,

It seems to me that what you and a lot of other people don’t understand, is that yes it may look very attractive to join Cathay right now (expat salary, housing allowance, big aircraft, etc.). But that is exactly what the Cathay pilots are fighting to maintain, that’s why there is a dispute and that’s why there is a ban in effect.

So even if you are a GA pilot flying pistons around Australia, then you should be able to understand that this is for everyones good. Yes of course the Cathay pilots are fighting for their own good, but they are definitely also fighting for all the future pilots of Cathay Pacific. If they don’t stand up now and say stop, then I predict that no expat pilots would want to join Cathay in a few years.

Is it fair that the Cathay pilots are accepting upgrades while the recruitment ban is on? Of course it is. Taking your command for an airline is the biggest step in any pilots career. Saying no to an upgrade during a conflict like this, may mean that you never get the command and your whole career will then be wasted.

A FO taking a command upgrade leaves space for a SO to upgrade to FO, which means that the company will need someone to replace the SO, this is where the recruitment ban becomes effective.

My point being: Waiting a year to apply to Cathay won’t do much to the rest of your life long career. But saying no to a command upgrade for a major airline, which is the ultimate goal for any pilot, may ruin the rest of your career and make all those years of hard work wasted.

[EMB Bras]

You have to be joking!
I suppose saying No to Cathay right now as a keen GA pilot looking to break into the majors is going to do wonders for your career! I think not. If you say no to Cathay now, they won't be asking you again.
For many, not all, Cathay may be many pilots only chance of breaking into the majors.

But saying no to a command upgrade for a major airline, which is the ultimate goal for any pilot, may ruin the rest of your career and make all those years of hard work wasted.

OK, How about Saying no to a SO job for a major airline, which is the ultimate goal for any GA pilot, may ruin the rest of your career and make all those years of hard work wasted!

[Rod Von Eddington]

Listen EMB Bras,

I have news for you, there are actually more airlines out there in the world than Cathay Pacific, even if you are coming from Australia, which most of the people complaining about the ban seem to do. I have had several airline jobs myself, and let me tell you this, saying no to one airline doesn’t mean that you will never get another airline job. And it doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t get hired by that specific airline later.

I do feel sorry for people who applied to Cathay before the ban came into place, and who have now been offered a job. It’s at tough decision to say no, but to be a professional pilot you have to play by the rules, if you don’t say no you will be ruining it for every one else and I don't just mean the Cathay pilots. The pilot job market is a very global one, when the pilots in the US fight for a pay rise it’s going to affect pilots in Europe and Asia as well, so it’s not just a few Cathay pilots that gets their lives affected when the management makes changes to the contract. More people posting on this forum need to realize this and look outside their own little belly button.

A recruitment ban may not be the best solution to put pressure on Cathay management, but the problem is the weak Hong Kong labour law. A lot of people don’t understand why the Cathay pilots don’t just go on strike. Well, you could do that in civilized places like Europe and with very good results (just look at the one day strikes at Lufthansa), but in Europe you are protected by labor law, so the company can’t fire you for going on strike, they can make a lock-out but not fire you. This doesn’t apply in Hong Kong, where very simply said you are allowed to strike but the company is then in its full right to fire you. I hope this clarifies to you what very delicate situation the Cathay pilots are in.

[Ajax]

The words 'delicate situation' doesn't even begin to describe it.

The trouble that you've got is that CX are interviewing again right now, and this current batch of interviews is where CX management are dipping their toes in the water to see how hot it really is. And take it from me they're finding no shortage of quality pilots who are happy to defy the ban. There is a lot of resentment, confusion and misunderstanding outside of CX about how the ban has been implemented, you guys may or may not like it but there's a large school of thought that agrees with wizofoz on this one.

Sure, the ban and the horror stories posted on PPRuNe from the union guys, have scared off a great many people from updating with CX recently (myself included) but does it really matter? Think about it ... we'll never know the true percentages involved, but lets be generous and hypothetically say that the ban has prevented 75% of prospective pilots from applying. No big deal - in the current climate it just means that they have now got maybe 5 suitable CVs on file for every position, instead of the 20 they might have had before the ban took effect. Has it not occurred to any of you people in the union that once management see that they can still attract suitable pilot candidates despite the ban (and, even better for management, the new pilots are obviously not going to be 'troublesome unionists' because the union won't have them!!) there'll be a damn sight more than 49 HKAOA members on the streets before long?

I honestly respect the desperate stand you guys are taking, and personally I wouldn't work in Cathay right now for any money. Doesn't change the fact that I know guys - good, hard working pilots, that happen to have been out of work for the last 8 months - that have been called recently, and are going to go for it. You may hate them and call them scabs and you may even be right, I'm not saying I agree with their decision but it's a fact that it's happening right now and you can't ignore it.

I don't know what the answer is, but it doesn't involve totally relying on the ban in the face of the evidence - that there ARE plenty of people willing and able to take the jobs, and probably enough to replace the whole lot of you if it came down to it. You need to stop alienating people, above all start talking to the new hire guys and get them on your side quickly, otherwise one of these days you're going to wake up one morning and find that you're struggling for the return of the 149 instead of the 49 ... or that there's only 49 HKAOA people still flying ... or none at all. Don't think that it can't happen, ask any Aussie.

[411A]

Now Ajax, you wouldn't want to confuse them with the facts, now would you.....after all, their minds(?) are made up:rolleyes:

[Kaptin M]

With the current oversupply of airline-experienced pilots available, Cathay "management" are probably feeling that the hundreds of millions of dollars they've allowed to be lost so far, instead of simply sitting down and talking WITH their pilots, might end up as an investment. Ansett, Australian, East-West, IPEC, Ansett New Zealand, Eastern, and Continental also conducted campaigns against their pilots using a similar mindset. ALL of those airlines are now defunct!

If CX "management" were to consider replacing some/most/all of their current pilots with new recruits - and certainly it IS possible - do they seriously believe that the SAME problems are not going to recur within a very short period of time?

It is possible, Wiz, that the HKAOA decided not to institute an upgrade ban to prevent CX management (in the short-medium term) from employing direct entry captains.

IMHO, the longer I see this Dispute continuing, the shorter I see CX's future!

[Wizofoz]

Hi Kaptin,

In the most part I agree with you (though I don't agree that the dispute was the root cause of the demise of the Australian operators listed. Don't want a great debate about it here, lets agree to differ!!), but what is the solution?

You may be right about the ban (Thought the only Cathay pilot who has had the decency to address it here has in essence said "It's to big a sacrifice to not take an upgrade, so we'll just let others stay unemployed to further our aims"), but what's the difference between banning direct entry captains and banning direct entry SOs and FOs?

As you know, the '89 dispute proved that an airline will ALWAYS find enough recruits. Hard as the AFAP fought the dispute, it didn't get you your job back. As I have said, the problem with this policy is it won't work.

And if the end result is that Cathay DOES go down, well, I've been there (quite recently!) and in that case EVERYONE loses!

[411A]

Just noticed a CONTINENTAL jet passing overhead five minutes ago.....don't think THEY are...."gone"!!
Hello....wrong number??

[Kaptin M]

Yes, I was waiting for someone to pick up on Continental and of course it just HAD to be our resident Indonesian airline director and magnate, 411A :rolleyes: Perhaps 411, when you have a minute to spare from the obviously onerous and demanding chores involved in getting your museum of aircraft airborne, you might like to publish here the number of Chapter 11's that Continental went through.
Before long, Australia will see Australian Airlines also (re)commence operations under the same owners - but it's not the same company that was conveniently incorporated into QANTAS for massive debt re-structuring following the prolonged dispute with its pilot workforce.

On a lighter note, "G'day Wiz!". The obvious solution is for Cathay management to REALISE that their pilots do have some GENUINE concerns, about which they feel strongly enough aggrieved to continue their industrial action in an attempt to bring the employer to talks.
I believe the term "responsible and accountable management" is the common factor that was MISSING from the list previously mentioned.

[Kaptin M]

Frankg, wrt the article you posted titled "Pilots for oneworld Alliance Airlines Call for Improved Industrial Relations and Working Conditions", please email me at [email protected] for further discussion. Cheers.

[Wizofoz]

Yo Kap,

NOW we are totally talking the same language.

Yes, Cathay mamagement waking up and smelling the S@@@ is what is desperatley required.

That makes the fact that the ban isn't going to work all the more critical. Would you agree that Cathay managment probably sees this as a golden opertunity to divide and concour by getting itself compliant, non unioun pilots?

[411A]

Absolutely Wiz.....non-union pilots, the way to go !! More for the management and stockholders that way...:)