Afghanistan. It's over at last!

[AtomKraft]

I'm sure we all heard the news this morning that Afghanistans' Army have taken over 'Combat Operations' and that UK Forces (some 5,000) will have a training and supervisory role only, from now on.

So. With luck we've seen our last UK casualty, Thank Goodness.:ok:

OTOH, how long before Afghanistan reverts to its earlier, pre-invasion condition?

The Afghan Army General on the Today Prog stated that large areas would be ceded to the Taliban more or less straightaway.

Is this a satisfactory state of affairs given our long struggle there?

What a bloody waste.

[Lightning Mate]

With luck we've seen our last UK casualty....

I doubt it.

How many British soldiers have been shot by Afghan army personnel ?

[Tashengurt]

I'm not sure that anyone even knows what 'over' looks like in that region.


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[Pontius Navigator]

Tashengut, I think they do, or at least should. It will be more of the same with all the discarded ISAF kit added to the mix.

Had Dr Reid bothered to read his history he would never had said 'without a shot being fired'. I hope he lies awake every night thinking what a mess he started.

You only have to imagine how 'you' would feel if you had thousands of foreign (not Western) troops basing themselves in Britain, patrolling the streets etc etc.

[spectre150]

Afghanistans' Army

I am surprised the Apostrophe Police haven't picked that up yet :)

Unfortunately I do not share your confidence that we will have seen our last UK casualty. I think we will continue to take hits until all the troops (of all Services) are home. As somebody else has already said, there is the ever-present risk of Green on Blue, and even in a 'support' role they will be vulnerable.

I understand the arguments regarding the cost of bringing all the kit home and its long term support but it seems such a waste to leave so much behind. None of it will fall into the wrong hand though will it...

[Eclectic]

£40 billions of our money wasted.
444 British servicemen dead. Thousands more injured.
And we should definitely not have been there. The real enemy was Arab jihadists, instead we took on central Asian freedom fighters.
Blame Blair for getting us in and Brown for keeping us there. Criminal.
And blame the brass who wanted a playground and a justification for more spend on their particular force.

Sure the Taliban were a nasty regime, but there are plenty of those in the world. Our main achievement was funding a property boom in Dubai where all the corrupt Afghanis were stashing our money.

[c-bert]

It's over at last!

I'm sure they said much the same thing back in 1842. We never seem to learn. :rolleyes:

[gr4techie]

I find it amusing they release this "success" story on the same day there's 5000 Army redundancies. It's like they are trying to bury bad news.
Todays Afghan press release is so full of "spin" and bias about how its a success that we are bugging out, it's annoying. On the radio this morning they were talking like the Afghan National Army are as good as any other and will save the world.

They should rename the BBC to the Ministry of Government Propaganda.

[thing]

I'm sure they said much the same thing back in 1842. We never seem to learn.

The best book I ever read about the retreat from Kabul was Flashman oddly enough. Macdonald Fraser's historical research was impeccable, you can almost tear your hair out at the idiocy of Elphinstone and McNaughten. Lions led by donkeys was apt long before WWI.

[c-bert]

The best book I ever read about the retreat from Kabul was Flashman oddly enough.

Just finished it!

[Surplus]

To all of you still over there, keep your heads down! Come back home in one piece.

[langleybaston]

and now we are girding what few loins we have for intervention in/over/around Syria?

Perhaps Switzerland could teach our politicians a thing or two.

I am and always have been a civilian but every one of those British dead have grieved me. Not wasted but unnecessary, despite what we are told.

Have we noticed the high proportion of junior leaders that have been lost: LCpl, Cpl, Sgt, and 2Lt Lt Capt and of course equivalent? These men and women would have been our shield and strength in 10 years time.

Can we please just mind our own business for ten years and just react if someone pokes us with a sharp stick?

[t43562]

For the country that created one of the biggest empires the world has yet seen, it would be surprising if it could ever become isolationist and cease trying to influence world affairs. The world has been moulded greatly by that influence in the past however futile it might have appeared from time to time. I can't help but think that a lot of today's successes in business, exports, finance etc etc are the long term payoff from a lot of past meddling. My life is not on the line so it's hypocritical of me to say what should or should not be done - I'm just commenting on what one can expect of a place with such a history.

[racedo]

Now US talking to the Taliban....................

Right that 2001 plan really worked didn't it.

[BEagle]

Who won?



.

[Dengue_Dude]

Frees the guys and girls up to be made redundant by a 'grateful nation'.

I know we all got paid while we were in, but it does smack of being kicked in the goolies having just done a good job.

[NutLoose]

Yup, totally agree :(

[Pontius Navigator]

Frees the guys and girls up to be made redundant by a 'grateful nation'.

I know we all got paid while we were in, but it does smack of being kicked in the goolies having just done a good job.

Bit like WW1 and WW2 where the war time armies were reduced drastically to peacetime levels. While many in WW2 were only too pleased to be demobbed there were many others that would have wished to stay.

In other words, sad though it may be, force reductions always follow a 'successful' outcome. IIRC GW2 also saw redundancies even as Afg was ramping up. Same with the other conflicts post FI and CW.

[500N]

PN

So they get rid of 5000 but spend on TV and other advertising to
try to get 10,000 recruits, even if some / most are reservists.

Just seems that they cut then re recruit new people.


Re the FI, the military didn't have time to expand before hand,
were these cuts already planned ?

[Easy Street]

Who won?

In that the point of going was to deny Al Qaeda a safe haven - we did, by Jan 2002. For some reason we stuck around.....

[NutLoose]

Afghanistan. It's over at last!
Who won?



.



BAe, Supercat, Babcock etc

[Dysonsphere]

Quote:
It's over at last!
I'm sure they said much the same thing back in 1842. We never seem to learn.

Which is what I was thinking. I wonder what the Russians were thinking when they left.

[PredatorB]

...But my PTSD is getting worse. I wish there was help out there.

[AtomKraft]

Declare Victory!

And leave........

[500N]

I notice that Tony Abbott made a point of not declaring victory or defeat
when he said the last Aussie troops had left Uruzgan today and were
"in the air".

[langleybaston]

QUOTE: Unfortunately I do not share your confidence that we will have seen our last UK casualty. I think we will continue to take hits until all the troops (of all Services) are home.

Not even then: think of Drummer Rigby, and the enduring hatred we have brought on ourselves. This will never end.

[Hangarshuffle]

All for the press and TV cameras, the PM does some glad handing and has lunch with the troops, probably gets a briefing about current Afghan situ.


David Cameron declares 'mission accomplished' in Afghanistan - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10397126/David-Cameron-declares-mission-accomplished-in-Afghanistan.html)


Think the blurb says it is "Mission Accomplished" and a "job well done". I'm not in any position to comment about that.(but I have my doubts).
I always think about the very young men and women out in the front line, at the tip of the spear. Always in my thoughts, especially at this time of the year.

[racedo]

Unfortunately I do not share your confidence that we will have seen our last UK casualty. I think we will continue to take hits until all the troops (of all Services) are home.

Not even then: think of Drummer Rigby, and the enduring hatred we have brought on ourselves. This will never end.

In many ways the casualty rate doesn't stop when war is over, think of even now those still alive who remember the horrors of WW2.

The mental problems will sadly be still seen for years after both in families, institutions and on the streets as those who cannot cope try and find other means to forget.

[NutLoose]

And you believe Cameroon? Heck he is the guy who told the Ark Royal crew they were doing a great job.

One would like to think that it is over, but somehow one thinks we will be there for years in one way or another.

[VinRouge]

Time to bring the kit and more importantly, the boys and girls home.

I hope all of those who put their careers ahead of their subordinates now reflect and ask if it was worth it. The army got its war to justify its land army and it's not exactly worked out well has it?

As to Afghanistan, I hope the power vaccum that will potentially be left doesn't cause an immediate reversion to type, but alas I fear there is little chance otherwise.

BAe, Supercat, Babcock etc

Not to forget all those KBE's too...

[Toadstool]

I had better get my last det in before we leave!!

[MPN11]

Meanwhile, in the Tribal Areas of Pakistan and elsewhere in that poor broken country, Taliban Travel Agents are rubbing their hands with glee at the upcoming business resulting from the impending migration of "peaceful people" to the newly "peaceful" Afghanistan.

I give it 12 months before it implodes.

[500N]

"I hope all of those who put their careers ahead of their subordinates now reflect and ask if it was worth it. The army got its war to justify its land army and it's not exactly worked out well has it? "

I understand that war incurs casualties and you have to "push on" BUT the one period that sticks in my mind was the time the Paras occupied a building in Sangin (I think) and effectively had the shyte shot out of them bit by bit for what in the end appeared to be no reason as it was eventually left.

From what I read they couldn't patrol, the Taliban just took pot shots at them
from distance and then assaulted every so often, it was damn hard to extract
casualties and effect re supply and all in all a great loss for little gain.

[AtomKraft]

500N

Your last words there, say it all:

'A great loss for little gain'....

This was our third (?) adventure here. Our last?

[500N]

""You can't brass everyone up, you can't beat the will of the people".

Bollocks. Tell that to the Japanese after the yanks firebombed Tokyo, the Iraqis after the yanks did fallujah....

I think Fallujah was a bit different.

A fair number of the population has gone before the main assault.
The fighters had 3 levels, the untrained expendable, the better
trained and then the leadership.
And those civvies that were left often helped the Yanks by pointing
out where the fighters were holed up.


But I agree, you can beat the will of the people, it depends how effective
you are, it's not just about bullets and killing them IMHO.

[Hangarshuffle]

What would you want to do it for Toadstool? Get out ahead mate. No one will thank you.
Give Cameron his due he is trying to sound the right noises. I mean what do you really say to the lads parents whose sons were lost? It was all for nowt?


Hope the whole of our chattering classes reflect on this minor conflict, in many ways. But doubt they will.


We have exposed ourselves as a massively divided country in this war. And you know what I mean.
A cynical higher end, an indifferent middle bit, a "give a **** still" lower bit.


* agree on who said about the damaged mental people out there - seen a few un hinged by it (violently so) but then again was ever thus.

[Lonewolf_50]

As to Afghanistan, I hope the power vaccum that will potentially be left doesn't cause an immediate reversion to type, but alas I fear there is little chance otherwise.
In my less charitable moments, I hope that they get a nice violent civil war with us out of the way, like Iraq. However, my more charitable moments hope that it won't be so.

Slim hope, given what is there to work with in human terms.

[smujsmith]

My only concern with all these "political" statements, are, that they are sound bites for a media eager to publish anything the latest "head snake oil salesman" says. They have picked up on his " victory" statement amongst his eagerness for glad handing selfies with the lads. I have every respect for all our servicemen who have served, or are serving in Afghanistan, I have absolutely none for the ex PR man out to use them as a vote grab, as he brings them home to fight for zero hours contracts with the Roma, having made most if them redundant. Perhaps at 60 I'm just becoming bitter and twisted, but did they treat our generation of servicemen like this ?

Smudge

[Pontius Navigator]

What would you want to do it for Toadstool? Get out ahead mate.

TIC not tick?

[olddog]

I'm currently reading "The Tigers and the Taliban" by Lars Johannesen. An interesting insight into ground ops for those of us fortunate enough to have only seen the recent conflicts from the air. (With all due deference to our rotary friends to whom many of our guys on the ground owe their lives)

[Al R]

Implode, how can it possibly implode - didn't you know? It's all been a complete success.

Property Afghanistan | Best way to buy and sell property in Afghanistan (http://www.propertyafghanistan.com/)

[peter we]

The mental problems will sadly be still seen for years

History shows that more casualties occur after the war than in it. Many more head trauma victims survive in recent wars.

[Danny42C]

I suppose that, when the final pull-out comes, our troops will leave along roads lined with cheering Taliban, waving paper Union Jacks and singing "Wull ye no come back agin" and "Old Lang Syne.

Wouldn't put money on it, though.

[500N]

Many more victims full stop survive, not just head victims.

And Gov'ts took a while to catch up, even though it was only
30 years since the Falklands which showed which was casualties
were going.

[GipsyMagpie]

Do you think Cameron repeated George W Bush's "Mission Accomplished" gaffe from Iraq for a reason? Why use the exact same phrase? Bizarre thing to say. Why not "Let's get out before it gets any worse". Least he might have got some votes next time around for being honest.

[racedo]

"Let's get out before it gets any worse".

"WTF are we here ?".......................would be better but a tad unlikely.

[500N]

"Let's get out before it gets any worse"

If they had followed through on the initial successes of 2001
and not taken the eye off the ball for Iraq, the mission would
have been achieved and they wouldn't have to get out before
it got worse.

The whole thing was a CF from the 2nd or 3rd year in.

[Heathrow Harry]

you'd have thought we'd have learnt from the First, Second & Third Afghan Wars - the place is not worth fighting over

[Davita]

Mission is the Afghan farmers are already planting next years poppy seeds.

Afghanistan: where the poppies blow | Editorial | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/14/leader-opium-afghanistan)

[FantomZorbin]

GypsyMagpie

It was only the Beeb that used the phrase "mission accomplished" - DC, having been 'fed' the phrase just used the words separately in a much longer response. The BBC was, as usual, being casual with the truth!!


He's still stupid to have used the words though.

[Wyler]

Cameron is absolutely right ---- Mission Accomplished.

The 'Mission' being to withdraw all troops before the next election. That is what it is all about. That is what it is always about.

Criminals, the lot of them.

[MPN11]

I suppose that, when the final pull-out comes, our troops will leave along roads lined with cheering Taliban, waving paper Union Jacks and singing "Wull ye no come back agin" and "Old Lang Syne.

Wouldn't put money on it, though.

Not so sure - I'm in for £10. Sounds like a good political ploy on their part, especially as they can be [like so many Afghanis, it seems] utterly 2-faced. Then, having persuaded every brain-dead moron around that they are really good chaps ... "B A N G"

Why not score a few cheap points, with no conviction whatsoever, just to enhance your position come the next (your own) takeover of power (again)?

[rgbrock1]

500N wrote:

"Let's get out before it gets any worse"

If they had followed through on the initial successes of 2001
and not taken the eye off the ball for Iraq, the mission would
have been achieved and they wouldn't have to get out before
it got worse.

The whole thing was a CF from the 2nd or 3rd year in.

Spot on brother, spot on. :ok::ok: We had the Taliban, and Al Qaeda, on the run but gave up the chase when our focus shifted to Iraq.

[500N]

rgb

IF the Politicians had only allowed the military to prosecute the mission
that they had for not much longer - 2002 to 2003, then I think they would
have more than achieved it.

A bit like a Bridge too Far in WWII, you can have 90% but that 10% can
come back to bite you on the arse and that 10% in Afghanistan grew and
grew to become what it was by 2005 and onwards.


Re 2001, if the US Generals had reacted quicker and sent in what was
requested when Osama was in the mountains, just think how different
everything would / could have turned out.

[VinRouge]

Cameron is absolutely right ---- Mission Accomplished.

The 'Mission' being to withdraw all troops before the next SDSR That is what it is all about. That is what it is always about.

Criminals, the lot of them.

Yep, just in time to make those they couldnt touch in SDSR 2010 due to herrick redundant.

[rgbrock1]

500N wrote:

Re 2001, if the US Generals had reacted quicker and sent in what was
requested when Osama was in the mountains, just think how different
everything would / could have turned out.If you're referring to Tora Bora the troops there at the time had OBL & Co. trapped and defeated. OBL's radio transmissions were tapped and he was heard to apologize for having his forces defeated and urged them to retreat.

The problem wasn't with coalition forces but with whom they gave the task of having AQ surrender to: a local Afghan militia commander. It is thought that this militiaman allowed OBL & Remnants to escape across the border into the Federally Administered Tribal Areas by paying off the Pakistani border guards on the other side of the border.

In all fairness, however, it also didn't help the allied cause when the requested mines weren't airdropped which, had they been deployed, might well have prevented Osama bin Liner & Co. from escaping.

'Dalton Fury' - former 1st SFOD-D commander at Tora Bora -
wrote that bin Laden escaped into Pakistan on or around December 16, 2001. Fury gives three reasons for why he believes bin Laden was able to escape: (1) the US mistakenly thought that Pakistan was effectively guarding the border area, (2) NATO allies refused to allow the use of air-dropped GATOR mines which would have helped seal bin Laden and his forces inside the Tora Bora area, and (3) over-reliance on native Afghan military forces as the main force deployed against bin Laden and his fighters. Fury states that, as it was Ramadan, the Afghan forces would usually leave the battlefield in the evenings to break their day-long fasts. He suggested this allowed the al-Qaeda forces a chance to regroup, reposition, or escape

[racedo]

Re 2001, if the US Generals had reacted quicker and sent in what was
requested when Osama was in the mountains, just think how different
everything would / could have turned out.

Question is what were the politicians and other quasi military groups defined by initials saying ?

Eliminating OBL then would have been a disaster for many organisations reliant on funding from Washington.

[November4]

So. With luck we've seen our last UK casualty, Thank Goodness.:ok:.



Sadly not

It is with great sadness that the Ministry of Defence must announce that a soldier from the Royal Engineers was killed in Afghanistan on 23 December 2013.

The Serviceman was killed in action as a result of enemy fire whilst on operations east of Kabul.

The Serviceman’s next of kin have been informed and have requested a period of grace before further details are released.

MoD (https://www.gov.uk/government/fatalities/soldier-from-the-royal-engineers-killed-in-afghanistan)

Thoughts with the family especially at this time of year.

[Thelma Viaduct]

So they get rid of 5000 but spend on TV and other advertising to
try to get 10,000 recruits, even if some / most are reservists.

Just seems that they cut then re recruit new people.


Re the FI, the military didn't have time to expand before hand,
were these cuts already planned ?

Pensions, it's a cost cutting procedure.

Get rid of the agreed legacy pensions, replace with sub-standard pi$$ take pensions that new recruits sign up to.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ShotOne]

Yes, if we're talking about the original post 9/11 task, it was completely and quickly achieved. Unfortunately mission creep, or rather mission leap then set in.

[orca]

I disagree slightly. I personally can't see how anyone of sound mind would consider there to have been a uniquely military solution to Afghanistan. Equally for there to be a solution then there had to be a problem in the first place.

I like Jackson's analogy that he uses in Soldier. It is one of a piece of rope of which the military is but a strand.

If there ever was a solution to Afghanistan the military was only ever going to be a strand in an integrated rope. I never saw much rope to be honest.

Lot's of people have tried and failed to 'solve' Afghanistan and quite a few of them have been Afghans.

I would also caution against too much bitterness. We military folk are here to serve, and there will always be some that disagree with individual ops. To add to the 'never should have gone' to Afghanistan brigade we have the 'shouldn't have gone to Iraq' bunch, the 'why did we get involved in the Balkans' lot...the 'Sierra Leone should be left alone' group...and before you know it we are down to QRA and SAR. One of which some would argue isn't a military task.

[sharpend]

Quote you'd have thought we'd have learnt from the First, Second & Third Afghan Wars - the place is not worth fighting over'

Some of us did. Many years ago, as the senior British Officer in theatre, I had a very interesting lunch with a very senior US politician. We discussed the situation in Afghanistan. This was long before the Brits and US got involved, but another country was, and not doing too well. I reminded the politician what happened to the Brits in the 19th century. He agreed that it would be madness to interfere in that country. Pity he was not in office some years later.