Bell 505 Jet Ranger X

[500e]

There you go vaqueroaero
#379 (https://www.pprune.org/9753488-post379.html) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/517185-bell-505-jet-ranger-x-19.html#post9753488))
Saturday & the wife's on Holiday

[Spunk]

If “500” is the correct number than you should contact your “connections” at Bell and tell him to replace their product specifications (february 2017) which can be downloaded here:PDF (http://bellhelicopter.com/~/media/bellhelicopter/documents/bell%20505/bell%20505%20product%20specifications.ashx?sc_lang=en)
On page 31 it states:
Part number sls-030-800-005 landing gear SLL = 3000 FH / 18.000 SRIN
🤔

[bellblade2014]

If “500” is the correct number than you should contact your “connections” at Bell and tell him to replace their product specifications (february 2017) which can be downloaded here:PDF (http://bellhelicopter.com/~/media/bellhelicopter/documents/bell%20505/bell%20505%20product%20specifications.ashx?sc_lang=en)
On page 31 it states:
Part number sls-030-800-005 landing gear SLL = 3000 FH / 18.000 SRIN
🤔

As was stated many times earlier in the thread, I’ve had lots of good discussions with the Chief Engineer on the program and several well connected folks in the design team. The life limits are all based on aggressive and slow fatigue testing that cycles all of these components through the worst conditions ever seen in flight testing and then amplified by 150-300% to accelerate the testing. Some of the tests still take 2-3 years to complete because of the complicated loads that need to be applied to meet today’s regulations. None of the other helicopters on the market were certified to these requirements.

All of the retirement lives are temporary and growing every day. The engineers indicated many of the published lives are expected to double or triple or go away entirely in the years to come. With zero design changes. We just have to wait for testing to complete.

[bellblade2014]

Also, separate topic... I was able to ride up to 125 kts with with 4 pac on at very low vibe from my perspective. It felt like most of my R66 and 206L rides. One of my rides I was in front left seat and it was not quite as comfy vibration as a L model, but I much prefer the visibility and the much more spacious area. I prefer the 505 to the L3 and L4 longrangers for the overall package.

[vaqueroaero]

If “500” is the correct number than you should contact your “connections” at Bell and tell him to replace their product specifications (february 2017) which can be downloaded here:PDF
On page 31 it states:
Part number sls-030-800-005 landing gear SLL = 3000 FH / 18.000 SRIN
��

Thanks for posting that, it appears that they have, obviously, substantially 'upped' the number. I was told the 500 number quite a while ago by numerous Bell employees, including someone in sales.

I certainly don't want to see it fail, the useful load numbers make it look pretty appealing for use in the agricultural sector, where range and endurance aren't quite so important.

[Aluminium Mallard]

Would someone that has some decent hours in jetties and longies please fly one and post an honest review.

The 206 is the landcruiser of the sky down here in oz. Super reliable delivers over and above whats on the box.

The 206L running gear and transmissions in a light weight modern body is win and win.

FH1100 just cant help digging yourself in deeper and deeper.
"It is pure fantasy to think that people are going to be zooming around at 125 knots in their 505, drag-racing 407's."
Most longies would get close to those numbers flying around at the 505's weight... pure fantasy I think not.

[exwessex]

Has anyone heard of the rundown time for the arrius engine- do you still have to wait out 2 minutes?!

[Ian Corrigible]

From a couple of pages back:

No 2 min cool down ;)
https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/517185-bell-505-jet-ranger-x-24.html#post10052193

[nigelh]

Well 19th March will be the day the first 505 gets registered in the UK 🇬🇧 and demos etc on 21st !!
Did anyone get to try it out at Vegas ?? My daughter was there but sadly they cancelled a day flying due to high winds .....and it was fully booked with demos ! The word so far seems mainly excellent...some don’t like the looks bit personally I think it looks cool 😎. Certainly in comparison to a R66 , Enstrom 480 .
I just want power, comfort , reliability and economic...that’s all !!

[Mee3]

no cool down means they will soon have a puncture.

[Helicopterdriverguy]

NIGEL
According to the CAA There are 2 x. 505 already registered GJRXI and GDONE

[muermel]

Well 19th March will be the day the first 505 gets registered in the UK 🇬🇧 and demos etc on 21st !!
Did anyone get to try it out at Vegas ?? My daughter was there but sadly they cancelled a day flying due to high winds .....and it was fully booked with demos ! The word so far seems mainly excellent...some don’t like the looks bit personally I think it looks cool 😎. Certainly in comparison to a R66 , Enstrom 480 .
I just want power, comfort , reliability and economic...that’s all !!


I flew withy my boss and 2 other guys plus the Bell pilot. Took off vertically out of the parking lot with 5 men in it, 80 % fuel AND power to spare, that was nice. Highest speed we got to was around 115 KTS and you could feel the vibrations increasing noticeably from 110 onwards. It was windy that day (we flew on Tuesday morning at around 11 am). The pinneacle approach we flew north of the city was a nonevent, again good power margin in the end.

My boss has around 1200 hours in 206 B3, 206L1, L2 & L4 and said it flew exactly like the L4, with the same vibrations building after 110 KTS so in his opinion it woun't do 125+ KTS comfortably and I don't think it would either.

Also the interior was nonexistent with bare glasfibre doors, no carpet, no panels around the rotor brake (I actually asked the Bell pilot if this was a pre-production modell with so much bare areas in the back and the big opening with visible cables etc. around the rotor brake). His comment was that you could get all that as aftermarket parts.

I know that our customer bought one 2 years ago and sold it (with a small profit) a month ago because of exactly those things.
In the end it was 1.3 Mio. Euros, no carpets, no door panels, big hole in the overhead panel and mostly Bell's surcharge policy of charging 6000.00 $ for each door opener (2 of them on the machine!!), 19,000.00 $ for a standby ASI & TAS (no way around that as they're mandatory!).
Funny enough we only got the info about the door openers and ASI/ TAS because 6 month before scheduled production date of the machine we asked about a revised options list.
They didn't think it was important to ask if we wanted any other options on the machine. And you still have to go off to buy aftermarket parts to make it look halfway decent on the inside after you had it delivered.

He's now keeping his EC 120 which will get it's 15 years inspection next winter plus new paint and interior :ok:

I think it has a good power margin (better than the EC 120) but is not as fast (cruising speed) and smooth and it also looks like a budget helicopter from the inside. If you want a good priced entry level turbine, buy a 66. If you want a quality helicopter buy a 120.

[nigelh]

That doesn’t seem correct to me .... I am paying 200,000 Euro less for mine and it has loads of extras incl carpets , rotor brake and damper !
Also I have now spoken to three people who have cruised around 125 with no real vibration.... maybe the one you went in didn’t have the damper ??

[chopper2004]

At the crack of dawn just as the cockatoo and sun rose, one was invited courtesy of Bell to KVGT for demo flight in either the 505 or 429. Luck as it was I ended up in the latter.

So here are my photos of both 505 on the ramp (I took some of the take off shots of the 505 while inside the 429) on the first day of the show. N505TL is in the new logo while N505FW in the old

Cheers

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4793/38905965070_7c8766df07_k.jpg


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4802/39820870155_e2fe24af06_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4791/26844847668_29754a08c9_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4798/25844671147_d160f710f0_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4797/40001479214_1f620350c2_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4782/40001475324_70a58bd6df_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4780/40711683711_1723d1c817_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4780/40001463894_9a070fa4af_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4802/25840223257_23d4116fb0_k.jpg

[chopper2004]

And from the departure of N505CD which was on static inside.

Cheers

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4771/40727364051_1dea8677b5_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4771/40684480462_b867a4f2ab_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4792/40017185254_3c03242ffd_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4782/40727347531_025f49275f_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4793/39832344385_6310b8a78d_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4792/40727341761_11a5f4027c_k.jpg

[GoodGrief]

That is one ugly aircraft. With that new logo on the nose it looks like it comes straight back from Vietnam...:mad:

[bellblade2014]

That doesn’t seem correct to me .... I am paying 200,000 Euro less for mine and it has loads of extras incl carpets , rotor brake and damper !
Also I have now spoken to three people who have cruised around 125 with no real vibration.... maybe the one you went in didn’t have the damper ??

My thoughts exactly... my demo was faster than that and was very smooth up to 115 kts IAS and when we got to 127kts, it felt about like my last ride in a jet ranger at 110 kts or so.... that was in the front left seat of the 505. I got to ride in the front left and back right seats... back right was awesome ride and hardly any vibe at any speed. Just the front seemed to be shaky north of 115.

The comment about the interior is true about being sparse, but i found it no more sparse than the AS350’s or utility configured jet rangers. Corporate versions I’m sure will be very different.

[BigMike]

Maybe it will look better on high skid gear...
Is that an option?

[FH1100 Pilot]

My thoughts exactly... my demo was faster than that and was very smooth up to 115 kts IAS and when we got to 127kts, it felt about like my last ride in a jet ranger at 110 kts or so.... that was in the front left seat of the 505. I got to ride in the front left and back right seats... back right was awesome ride and hardly any vibe at any speed. Just the front seemed to be shaky north of 115.

...Said the Bell salesman. And salesmen always tell the truth, don't they!

So far, we've had a number of written reports (two of them published) that the 505 gets really rough above 110 knots. Then we have Nigelh, who denies those reports and believes that they must be wrong. Nigel's (so far) uneducated opinion is backed-up by a Bell employee.

But wait! I know that y'all accuse ol' FH1100 pilot of being totally biased and anti-Bell (and perhaps an idiot). But that's just not the case (well, except for the idiot part - of that I must plead guilty).

So in the interest of objectivity, let's give the 505 the benefit of the doubt. Maybe all three reports of a rough ride above 110 knots...maybe they all flew in the same demo aircraft? And maybe that aircraft did/does not yet have the extra Frahm damper installed in the fuselage? And maybe Hermann Frahm's damper works exceedingly well in the 505? Hey, stranger things have happened.

On the other hand...Bell would have to be insanely stupid to give people demo rides in an aircraft that was not representative of what's coming off the assembly lines. Unless that Frahm damper is *optional*...

[toptobottom]

SO ugly! 1960s machine in a not so posh frock

[BigMike]

Sorry, but a secondhand Jetranger, or Longranger, is just plain better looking. Regardless of age... ;)

[Agile]

After you look at this Bell 47 model G for long enough, the 505 look very fine
http://www.helis.com/h/b47j_f-bnpq.jpg

[helonorth]

Sorry, but a secondhand Jetranger, or Longranger, is just plain better looking. Regardless of age... ;)

True that. The 206 is the Beech Bonanza of helicopters.

[nigelh]

FH1100 ....I love your statement....
“ Nigel's (so far) uneducated opinion is backed-up by a Bell employee.“

I have spoken with many “ non Bell “ people !! I find it strange that you exert so much time and effort into trying to persuade people that this new Helicoper is a pile of sh*t and yet you will never own one , never fly one or operate one . Apart from being an inept Helicoper designer and probably ignored by Bell in the past ..... is there another reason for you lurking around spouting the same old gibberish?!! You made about 5-6 main hat eating statements and all were wrong . You haven’t eaten your hat and are obviously just not a man of your word !!!
.....,,,, and yes the FRAM dampers are optional so it is perfectly likely that some of the demo ships would be without . My friend did his acceptance flight at 125 knots without and decided it was not needed .
🍴🎩

[BigMike]

Putting hat eating to one side for a minute... ;)

Is there a high skid option? The skid height in the photos looks sort of half way between 206 low/high skids?

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

last night i tried a few things to help me become attracted to the 505 design.
I used an opaque filter. didn't help.
I squinted my eyes. didn't help.
I dimmed the lights, opened some wine and drank 2/3's of the bottle. almost helped.
I hit my head with a hammer. didn't help.
I used a bigger hammer, then ran into a wall. When I woke up...didn't help.
I held my breath for what seemed an eternity. when it all went black...I saw the most glorious thing, but it wasn't a 505.

I know looks affect different people in many ways. But this is one design I just can't get into no matter how much latitude I give it. With the way this thing is selling, I'm more apt to think it has to do with price, and is directly comparable to last call at the bar when the lights come on and everyone scrambles to find a chick to take home. Your standards are immediately lowered. but hey, you're getting something.

[nigelh]

Grey .... Everyone is entitled to their opinion !!!! I don't know if you own a helicopter or are going to own one ...but I ask you this question . Is the performance , reliability and cost more important than the looks ?
I admit I may be bias because I am buying one , but I am going from what I think is a beautiful helicopter ( 109) to this one ( which has grown on me but I don't think it is anywhere near as pretty as the old 206 which I also used to own ) . The reason is that if you are actually buying a helicopter , the looks are right at the bottom of the list of your requirements . If you are just a driver ( as most are here ) I think you would be happy to fly a helicopter you think is ugly . If you are an operator , you are only interested in payload , comfort and cost . There are very few people who ever buy a helicopter based upon looks !!!
If you take the price of a good vip spec 505 you are looking at $1.35 -1.4 . With a 1000 hour 3 year warranty you are looking at very cheap flying indeed . Then , if ,( and I think they will ) they go up in price you will then sell at cost or a small profit after a few years .
I have owned and operated Bell 206 , MD500 , AS350 , Enstrom 480 and A109 and I think this will be the best bang for your buck . I may be wrong but I will let you know when I get it in July !!
I still think it is the best value machine out there by a long long way ......

[bellblade2014]

Putting hat eating to one side for a minute... ;)

Is there a high skid option? The skid height in the photos looks sort of half way between 206 low/high skids?

Yes, the Sacramento PD press release talked about it last week and the sales team confirmed its 6 inches higher, which gets you up to 26” or so.

[bellblade2014]

Cargo hook was confirmed at 2000 lbs last week at HAI... going to destroy the value of AS350B2’.... sell them while you can.

Also... FH1100 I’m not an employee of Bell or affiliated with their sales team. I just appreciate a smart design when I see one.

[Evil Twin]

After you look at this Bell 47 model G for long enough, the 505 look very fine
http://www.helis.com/h/b47j_f-bnpq.jpg

That's a J

[Agile]

Thanks for the correction

in both cases air-cooling of the engine compartment really seem to have been happening as an afterthought.

[cattletruck]

I bet the 505 design looks very "modernist" to the current set of designers, which is why it seems a little bit ugly to us. Little feet, funny nose, big swash plate housing mould, underslung stabiliser, minimalist interior... I think you need to be wearing a black turtleneck pullover to be seen in such a thing. Hang on, didn't the turtleneck jumper feature in the sales pitch of the 206 when it was first released, just a different colour.

I notice they've kept the retro cork throttle grip theme but improved the seats, has the headroom improved?

Now the 429 is a true pilots office with everything done proper, but that's a different story.

[nigelh]

And a different price ! Is that what you are buying ?

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Grey .... Everyone is entitled to their opinion !!!! I don't know if you own a helicopter or are going to own one ...but I ask you this question . Is the performance , reliability and cost more important than the looks ?


no, don't own one. won't ever buy one, but almost 30yrs in the industry I think justifies that i can have my own opinion.
To answer your question from my standpoint. performance outweighs everything. and reliability is close second Thats from an operational view. I love the Kmax. but it's uglier than most peoples side chick.
However, I won't buy an ugly car, even if its does 1/4 mile times faster than anything, or handles like it's on rails, or has a kick ass warranty. I just won't be seen driving around in something hideous.
I value your commitment to the aircraft, you've done your homework, and believe you've made the right choice for yourself. But I agree to disagree on this helicopters looks. If anything grows on me about it, it will be the legacy components that have years and years behind them that contribute to its reliability, but lack any real advancement in technology. Its a bargain for a reason and that appeals to many.

[claudia]

Nigelh is absolutely correct and sums it up well in his post 527.
Around one mil sterling for a brand new turbine helicopter represents
exceptional value compared to new 500s, 600s squirrels, longrangers etc.
Probably close to HALF price!! It will also knock some realism into the used
market for sure.
However i wont be buying one, that Turbmeca engine spoils the
party for me:ugh:

[nigelh]

Claudia ..... I hear what you say !!!
I swore I would never put myself into Turbomeca,s hands again ... I sold my lovely AS350 BA because of Turbomeca and looked at buying a D2 ( Honeywell) .
After a long chat with Bell I have been pulled around . If the French play silly buggers with Bells customers it will hurt them !!! Also the maintenance package with the engine is such good value and covers everything incl overhauls etc making this a fixed cost per hour to fly . I am already thinking I should put an order in for my next one so I can sell this one with some factory warranty.... hopefully for the same or more than I paid for it . Now that would be nice !!

[claudia]

Nigel, I hear what you say and indeed believe you will easily sell
it on in the short term ie 2/3 years for cost or more even if doesnt
do the magic 125kts !!
You have put your money were your mouth is so you deserve some
good economical flying.-- Enjoy I am jealous :ok:

[nigelh]

Well , I will be flying regularly between Yorkshire and London so if you ever want a bit of stick time PM me !! ( should be up and going by mid August unless FH1100 is correct and they stop building it !!

[claudia]

A very kind gesture, many thanks. Maybe take you up on that some day!
In the meantime do please let us all know how you are getting on when you have a few hours under your belt.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Nigel, oh Nigel, why must you always make it personal? Why be so petty and childish? It makes you look so...well...petty and childish.

Why do you say I'll never own, much less fly a 505? You don't know that. Why do you say I'm a failed helicopter designer? I never said I've designed anything. The FH1100 was already fully designed when I worked there. All we were trying to do was put it back in production with some modern improvements.

All I've ever said is that I've spent my life flying helicopters, mostly two-blade systems, and mostly Bells. And no, Bell never rejected me; they never had the chance to.

I do spend time, but I most assuredly do not spend effort criticizing the 505. The time is mine to use as I please, as I'm semi-retired, so don't concern yourself with my personal, free-time activities.

I've always been skeptical of manufacturers' claims. And Bell really stretched the envelope with the 505. Claiming a "125+ knot" cruise is simply ludicrous. A two-blade that's as fast as a 407? Yeah, right. Now hear this: IT'S NOT GOING TO CRUISE AT 125 KNOTS. If the main rotor "two-per" doesn't prevent that, then the cabin pitch attitude and fuel burn will. But it's fun for Bell to make such a ridiculous claim. Because some nitwits believe it. Other nitwits repeat it like it's true. No pilot-report that I have read has stated, "We set the power, and the 505 settled into a nice, comfortable 125-knot cruise, with plenty of forward cyclic travel left." One does not have to be a helicopter designer to know that won't happen; one has only had to have flown a 206L. It sure would be nice to have an actual test pilot fly and evaluate the 505, not the giggling fangirls that have flown it so far.

And, dear Nigel, the expression, "I'll eat my hat," is what we call a colloquialism. It's not to be taken literally. Only a child would. It is true that I thought that Bell would never produce the 505. So I was wrong there. But...typical Bell...they claim a low price-point ("Around $1million") and to do that they give you an El Strippo version with EVERYTHING being an optional extra...optional extras that are standard on the Robinson and Airbus competitors. Bell Salesman: "I see you've chosen the red one - great choice, sir! Now...would you like your landing gear also painted red? It's only $4,500 more! And come on...what's $4,500 when you're buying million-dollar helicopter?"

It is also true that I've said it will sprout endplates on the afterthought horizontal stab. I still think it eventually will, especially if people force it to cruise along at max power.

I find it odd that people gloss over the exposed tail rotor gearbox, and the placard that allows up to, what, FORTY POUNDS of extra ballast?? Jiminy Christmas! Bell must have really thought that the horizontal was going back there. Oopsie!

I suppose that Bell left the gearbox exposed because the weight back there is pilot-adjustable depending on the mission? Great...now we're back to the days of moving the 47 battery back and forth to keep the ship in c.g.? Or is the weight non-adjustable and Bell was just too cheap to design a fairing to cover basically an automobile battery back there?

I'll stop there. I have fun stuff to do today, and I don't want Nigel getting upset that I'm wasting any more time or effort degrading his new wunderkopter.

[nigelh]

🎣!!!!!!! You came up like a fat old trout !! Only part I agree with is the extras , but they kept to $1.075m
+ 3% so a few thousand $ for the extras still makes it incredibly cheap .
But you know that . And I have had two pilots who I trust who have both said they cruised at 125 ... one said it was smooth and the other said there was a vibration.

[SansAnhedral]

Good 'ol FH just simply can't help himself

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/044/247/297.png

[Ascend Charlie]

FH says a two-blader can't go faster than 125kt?

Has he never been near a 222 or a Cobra?? Mind you, the speed increase requires a bit of fuel-to-noise conversion along the way.

[Lonewolf_50]

I found a quick 2-blader, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1_SuperCobra)but I think that the NATOPS red line is a bit below max speed.

Maximum speed: 190 knots (218 mph, 352 km/h)

[John R81]

I found another one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airwolf). Mach 1+ with turbo-thrusters

[SansAnhedral]

Didn't this guy do 270?

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/media/pictures/bell533-4.jpg

[nigelh]

Come on , don’t all pick on FH1100 .
The Bell figures of max cruise 128kn
is obviously just a mistake!

[Hughes500]

To be fair that is like MD saying a 500 E max cruise is 135. Yup it will get there but you don't half know it, the ac just doesn't like it. My best D model will do 140 but eyes are watering and the fuel burn .... well might as well have a turbomeca in there

[Lonewolf_50]

nigel, as an old Phantom pilot told me:
Helicopter pilots arguing about their maximum speed is like hookers arguing about their virginity.

[nigelh]

I definitely don't disagree with either of last two comments .... But there has to be a figure for max cruise ! So should there be two figures 1) Max possible cruise 2) Max comfortable cruise ??!! To be honest if it's 120knots and comfortable and economical I will be very happy ! I am flying one on 21st of this month so I will report back what the real figure is ( being a 505 Virgin !!)

[CRAN]

Are there any pictures of long skid versions yet?

CRAN

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Nigel, be honest...if after your flight its not up to expectations, will you give an honest review about that? You have invested alot of money and pride in it, so i am skeptical you can be unbiased.
Helicopter reviews are much like movie reviews in reality.

[Ascend Charlie]

There was a Mirage pilot who sneered at helicopters :

"Let me know when they make one that has a maximum speed that is anywhere near my rotate speed."

[Downupside]

Hi Ascend Charlie, slightly off topic, but see this, all true!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu_leZE76VE&feature=player_embedded

[nigelh]

Gray .... actually I think I can be honest . I will just sell it on and take a turn ... but what else to buy ??
Now a 4 blade 6 place 505 would be nice !! ( maybe new cabin for the 407 ? )

[fijdor]

FH says a two-blader can't go faster than 125kt?

Has he never been near a 222 or a Cobra?? Mind you, the speed increase requires a bit of fuel-to-noise conversion along the way.

I have flown the 214ST regularly at 130 to 140 KTs and THAT is a 2 bladed system helicopter. VNE if i recall is 160KTS.

JD

[SuperF]

nigelh, the problem with a new cabin for the 407, is they will probably make it as ugly as the 505...

[nigelh]

Possibly ... but I want a fast(ish) , cheap , reliable, powerful, comfortable Helicoper and quite frankly the looks are at the bottom of my list of requirements!! ( I actually quite like the look of the 505 , especially after extending the skids a bit ). So a 5-6 place 407 , with no broom cupboard, for around £1m new with 3 year warranty would be great!!!

[SuperF]

fair enough, but i don't think that they will make one.

[BigMike]

Nigel, if you haven’t flown a 407, go have a drive.
You will be sold... 😏
Was always a B3 Squirrel fan, but the 407 is pretty good.
Only downside is the 206 seat...

[nigelh]

Errrrr ...and the fact that you can buy three 505,s for the price of one 407 !! Add to that the broom cupboard....I have used the 407 a number of times heliskiing and it’s not very comfortable in the back and quite tight and poor outside viz .
The more I think about it the more I think the 505 with 3 or 4 blades and an extra seat would be a squirrel basher !!

[heli1]

New cabin for 407? According to HeliData News & Classified that's exactly what Bell is working on at the moment .....Watch this space( excuse the pun)!

[BigMike]

Who cares about the back. You are flying it....
I think if you flew one you might change your mind...
3 x the price? A good used one would not be double the cost of a 505, and is in a different league altogether.
And they are just way better looking... ;)

[whoknows idont]

Who cares about the back.

Often enough the ones that pick up the check. :oh:

[BigMike]

"Often enough the ones that pick up the check"

Correct, and we operate one, not recreationally fly it...

[nigelh]

Hi what are running costs like ? I am sure it’s a great machine but the 505 gives much more bang for your buck and I think a reasonable chance of appreciating rather than depreciating!!!

[rotorspeed]

Just read a pilot report in Aviation International News mag on the 505. Two pages of largely drivel by one Alexa Paprosky, who is claimed to be a CPL, and not one reference to its cruise speed, fuel burn or climb rate! Useless! And I find this so often with flight tests - what we really want to know is what matters most to us; primarily real world fast cruise speeds, with reference to weight, altitude etc, and the fuel burn at this speed, with a realistic range. And a comment on smoothness can be useful, if very subjective.

And yet time and again in media pilot reports we just get chapter and verse on start up procedures, instrumentation, low speed handling, emergency procedures etc, all of which we just get used to anyway and are unlikely to be purchase decision factors.

As someone who had 2000 happy hours in 206s in my early days I'd like to know what the 505 is really like and here was an opportunity missed!

[bellblade2014]

http://www.collectivemag.com/first-cross-country-bell-505-jrx/amp/

They say they held 110-120 kts consistently throughout their cross country flight with MCP.

[FlimsyFan]

Cross Country in the Bell 505 JRX - How Does it Perform? | Heliweb Magazine (http://www.collectivemag.com/first-cross-country-bell-505-jrx/amp/)

They say they held 110-120 kts consistently throughout their cross country flight with MCP.

It’s not a bad article. I’m definitely not brave enough to take sides in this argument, but 110-120 at MCP with 2 POB seems quite a way off a claimed 125+ at MAUW?

The performance described in this article would be on par with the performance of our R66, but with less endurance.

[BigMike]

Nigel, using Conklin Deckers summary as a comparison, the 407 is about 33% more per hour to operate. It is however in a different league performance wise.

[John Eacott]

It’s not a bad article. I’m definitely not brave enough to take sides in this argument, but 110-120 at MCP with 2 POB seems quite a way off a claimed 125+ at MAUW?

The performance described in this article would be on par with the performance of our R66, but with less endurance.

At what altitude, IAS or TAS?

Midland Texas is some 2,600’ AMSL and El Paso 3,500+ so what was the cruise altitude? The report gives a 100F temperature on departure from Midland so they are challenging temperatures and altitudes which may push the TAS out to the claimed 125kts true.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Oh dear. Well this is awkward.

Mike the BellBlade published the link to the article in COLLECTIVE Magazine written by one Ryan Mason. Now, I sort of "know" Ryan from the Facebook HPN page. He's a nice guy, and one hell of a photographer! But he's not an...actual...you know...pilot. No rating. Not even a student certificate. He's had some dual instruction, but apparently not enough to solo or get rated.

After he published that extensive article on the 505 in his magazine, I took him to task for not providing things like fuel burn, ride quality (comparative to its competitors), power vs. speed figures, cabin pitch attitude in cruise...you know...stuff that you'd expect to see in a normal pilot-report. I mean, after all, he flew it (or more correctly, flew *in* it) for FIVE HOURS. Surely he could've given us an idea of the fuel burn! But no. It was only then that Ryan admitted that he's not an actual...you know...pilot.

Oh.

But hey, that doesn't make his observations invalid. It simply means that he's not an experienced, qualified aircraft evaluator. And to his credit, he does sort of admit that a couple of times in the article. Fortunately he's a helicopter guy through-and-through – he loves these crazy contraptions as much as anyone. And he's flown *in* a bunch of helicopters.

But let's face it, like most people who get to fly a brand-new, mostly-newly-designed machine, he was "wowed" by all the gee-whiz stuff like the FADEC and Garmin G1000, both of which have been around long enough that guys like me aren't impressed anymore. (The G1000 debuted in 2007. It's old.) Maybe it was sensory-overload, I don't know. Not to put him down, but a guy like Ryan would probably get all giggly if he got some cross-country stick-time in an old UH-1 retrofitted with a G1000. I would too. But I'd keep my objectivity.

An admittedly-dated Garmin avionics suite doesn't do anything for the design of the aircraft; it just gives us more and (for some pilots) new toys to play with. And FADEC is nice, but it doesn't really decrease the pilot's workload, come on, other than during the start. The easily-impressed will say, "Oooooh, but you won't have to monitor the RRPM so closely in flight!" Yeah you're right. And if you don't fly like Chuck Friggin' Aaron in his Bolkow you won't have to do that in your 206A either. Let's put it this way: In all my years of flying Bell 206's (which is more than three decades), I never considered the wandering MRRPM to be a nuisance or distraction. I don't pull or push faster than the torque gauge can move. If the RPM didn't stay within limits it got written up and the governor got changed.

Whatever...

Everyone seems impressed with the 505's performance. What...did Bell rewrite the laws of physics? IT'S A LONGRANGER! A short LongRanger, that is (Bell should have called it the SLR). Actually, it's a fairly weak, 500 h.p. LongRanger...kind of like an old L-1 with a slightly faster rotor. “But the 505 is lighter!!” Well, maybe not *much* lighter. Again, the COLLECTIVE article failed to mention the empty weight of Steve Urschel's ship. But Bell says that the empty weight is 2,180 pounds, so let's go with that. Add 360 for the pax, 100 for the bags, and 575 for the fuel and we get...about 3,215 pounds, which is about 700 pounds or so heavier than the empty weight of the L-1's I used to fly when I was at PHI. So again, not much lighter than an L-model. Maybe I'm misremembering that...I am getting old. Maybe they were 2,700 pounds. Still...with just me and some fuel, my PHI L-1 would weigh about the same as Urschel's 505.

People are trying to make this 505 out to be some new super-copter. Dear God, according to some, you'd think it was a civilian reincarnation of Airwolf! Time will tell. Eventually some 505's will be released here in the U.S. instead of all of them oddly being sent overseas first. Eventually one will be flown by an actual pilot with actual experience in objectively evaluating aircraft (like Guy Maher's piece in VERTICAL) and a GoPro focused on the panel. Maybe then we'll get some real-world, quantifiable numbers, not the breathless, “Oh-my-God, FADEC! The throttle's a toggle-switch!!!” PR hype we've gotten so far.

Maybe.

[nigelh]

FH1100 ... as I can see it , YOU are the only one getting all animated about the 505 . I haven’t heard anyone state it was the best thing around . Even myself , and I am buying one , see it as a compromise.
It’s a Long Ranger with a smaller , but open plan , cockpit with some quite nice avionics . Main point is it’s CHEAP , actually unbelievably cheap and will no doubt get a hefty price hike soon ( it has already had one ) . It is almost the same price as a nice v late 206 used to fetch , It is half the price of an MD500 and Long Ranger and only a little more than the R66 ....... which is a Robinson !! So you Stop getting yourself all pumped up about it ,worrying that it might actually be a decent Helicoper and leave that to somebody who is actually going to fly one . What difference does it make to you if it’s good , great or useless??
I will try to give some info as soon as I have flown it .... warts and all !!

[nigelh]

Note ... a new 206 was approx the same price in 2010 as a new 505
8 years later !!

[CRAN]

Nigel,

I was actually pondering this myself yesterday evening so I looked up the launch price for the 206A in 1967, it was $89,500.

(Source: http://www.heli-archive.ch/en/helicopters/in-depth-articles/agusta-bell-206a-jet-ranger/)

In today’s dollars that’s, $667,206.42. You have to remember that this was before the litigation explosion in the US so for Bell to offer the 505 at $1M in today’s world, with the added avionics suite and all the product liability cost is a fantastic achievement.

Regardless of whether you like the design, Bell have done extremely well commercially to offer a fully certified 5-place helicopter at this price point. FACT.

Of course they could have innovated more and provided a more complex machine, but it would have cost more and to get into the market these days you have to compete with the R66.

I haven’t flown the 505 yet (I would like to), but love the 206 and have spent some time in the 505 mock ups and found it much more appealing in the flesh than on screen. It’s big and feels like a proper helicopter.

CRAN

[bellblade2014]

https://youtu.be/9TcBNPDybKU

125 kts cruise with at least 3 people on board.

[claudia]

Nigelh. Waiting and watching every day with great interest on news
of your 21st March flight in the 505. Please let us know as soon as you
can. I and many others would value your opinion. Best Regards
Claudia.

[Hughes500]

Never mind the 125 kts cruise, where is the common sense in flying so low over a built up area. Obviously lots of faith in the French engine !

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Nigel had a flight over two weeks ago?? and we haven't heard from him??

[SansAnhedral]

https://preview.ibb.co/iNB6mc/Untitled.png

Bit of a coincidence there!

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

https://preview.ibb.co/iNB6mc/Untitled.png

Bit of a coincidence there!

Oh yes...let the conspiracy theorists throw that one out there that i'm Nigel. I"d love to be so filthy rich i just buy helicopters because theyre shiney and new.

[SuperF]

Well i have heard talk of a 900kg hook on this thing. If true, how good is that going to make it look compared to a 44, 66, 120, 350B2, etc...

[nigelh]

Grey .... I'm sad for you that you are not filthy rich . Really I am ! But that is no excuse for that chip on your shoulder . I have owned and operated helicopters for 38 years . Everything from Bell 47 , 206 , MD500 , 480,
350 and 109 . What they have all had in common was that they were OLD !! Nothing wrong with that but I just wanted to have something that I could climb into in the morning and push the start without praying that no lights come up !!!!! No surprise costs for 3 whole years ...... Bliss !! I have only had one maintenance shocker in all those years so think myself lucky . Even my old 109 , which is coming out with new annual on Monday , has been pretty reliable and reasonable costs . Sadly I will have to sell her before the 505 arrives . A whole lot of helicopter for the money !!!
Lastly , my mistake , the 505 day is 21st of this month and I promise to report what I find regardless ..... Warts and all !! It really doesn't matter a lot to me if it disappoints as I can sell it for a healthy profit and keep my lovely 109 !! But I am hoping I love it and keep it for years ......

[KiwiNedNZ]

Nigel - Did you get the intro email I sent introducing you to someone who is already operating it and loves it :)

[heliduck]

Well i have heard talk of a 900kg hook on this thing. If true, how good is that going to make it look compared to a 44, 66, 120, 350B2, etc...
Interesting, Can anyone shed light on real world experience of external load capacity? According to the specs 900kgs is within the limits with 75litres of fuel & an 80kg pilot, but that’s just website specs & I doubt an operational aircraft would lift 900kgs. Even so, if it can repeat 800kgs all day it’ll compete with a B2.

[SuperF]

Interesting, Can anyone shed light on real world experience of external load capacity? According to the specs 900kgs is within the limits with 75litres of fuel & an 80kg pilot, but that’s just website specs & I doubt an operational aircraft would lift 900kgs. Even so, if it can repeat 800kgs all day it’ll compete with a B2.

or 50 litres and a 100kg pilot....

Considering its a Long Ranger with a different body then it should be good, and the LR is pretty honest in what it can do.

[nigelh]

I agree with what you say about the LR . That is what i saw as the major benefit of using the L4 as the basis of this aircraft ....it is honest and solid . I also agree with those that would have liked to see a whole new drive train for the 505 ..maybe with 4 blades etc . That would have been nice BUT it would effectively be a smaller place 407 and would definitely have been double the price !! They have been very clever getting this onto the market for such an unbelievably low price and the two blade system is the price you pay for this economy . Having said that how many problems do you hear about the L4 with mast bumping ??
I have just heard from a friend who has picked his 505 up in the UK and is thrilled . Just over 120 Knots cruise a MAUW and 125-128Knots just two up .
He didnt opt for the damper and says the ride is pretty smooth at all speeds but not as smooth as with the damper but saves about 30kg which he thinks is a good trade .

[nigelh]

I hear from Bell that it is definitely 900Kg on the hook , so presume the lifting boys will go for light weight machines and maybe take doors and seats out ?
But pretty impressive all the same !

[Hughes500]

Nigel

In that case can I hire yours for some loadlifting as 900kgs is very impressive. Although MD says 2000lbs on a hook for a 500D... I wish !

[nigelh]

We could do a deal !!! Can you teach load lifting as I have only done spraying and would like to be able to do some at home !

[Hughes500]

sounds good to me. I know the 505 can be flown from left seat, that would make VR much easier !

[nigelh]

Might not get 900kg on the hook with me as well 🙈🙈

[wrench1]

Nigel,

Does your 505 purchase cost include a set of paper maintenance manuals? Or would it have been a separate cost? Bell used to offer a Maintenance Kit of manuals as part of the sale price but can't determine if they still do. Especially with the advent of digital publications now. Any input would be appreciated.

W1

[nigelh]

Wrench ...... I'm afraid I have no idea but will find out !!
Just had a message from a friend who is ex mil commercial pilot and he flew one yesterday . All I got from him was that he loved it , it was very smooth and he cruised very comfortably @ 122knots with 4 up and fullish fuel .

[John Eacott]

nigelh, maybe a confirmation of TAS or IAS would be helpful to sort out the doubters?

[PhlyingGuy]

Pubs are digital, but can be downloaded for offline access. You have to pay extra for printed.

[wrench1]

Pubs are digital, but can be downloaded for offline access. You have to pay extra for printed.
So the digital publications are part of the purchase price? Would you happen to know if the price includes a training school for pilot and mechanic? Thanks.
W1

[nigelh]

Free full training package is included in the price , can be bought for around $15k .

[SuperF]

So the digital publications are part of the purchase price? Would you happen to know if the price includes a training school for pilot and mechanic? Thanks.
W1

All new helicopters used to come with training for pilot and engineer, not sure how many of each, and not sure if they do now sorry.

Online pubs are available free to the owner of any registered Bell helicopter, and i guess that you could print a complete set if required.

Our engineers normally print the relevant pages for whatever they are working on, when they need them. That way we know that the manuals being used at the time of the inspection are correct and up to date. When printing from the website, it has the revision number and date on it, and you can get it to print the date that you are printing the pages as well. That makes it really handy for audits, etc, or if there is a question in the future, you go back to the work pack and the actual pages that you worked from are there for you.

[toptobottom]

Lastly , my mistake , the 505 day is 21st of this month and I promise to report what I find regardless ....

Nigelh - I’m attending the “505 day” at White Waltham on 21st. Will you be there?
TTB

[nigelh]

Yes , going with my son and a friend.
See you there!

[toptobottom]

EGLM is my local airfield.
PM me your number if you're interested in hooking up - I'll be flying in with a couple of chums

[nigelh]

I will not fly in as I'm in town already but see you there ... Looking forward to it so hope weather is good !! What are you flying in with ?

[toptobottom]

I will not fly in as I'm in town already but see you there ... Looking forward to it so hope weather is good !! What are you flying in with ?

EC120 - will ping you a PM

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

the 505 day is 21st of this month and I promise to report what I find regardless ..... Warts and all !!

today is the day....you must be excited.

[chopper2004]

Thanks to HelxAv team for organising a great day today for the launch of the UK Bell 505. It was a beautiful warm day anyhow here are my photos of G-JRxi

Cheers

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/793/27738439088_d8488e10f8_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/811/40897034284_b8922ff07c_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/789/27738440468_407cadcda6_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/941/40715685665_5bf368ced3_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/887/41607235151_e6775e2dfd_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/900/40715685485_94d4b108af_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/852/40715685005_ae42777c61_k.jpg

[chopper2004]

Also from today's event, here are my photos around lunchtime of G-DONE performing and arriving.

cheers

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/939/40715731945_d8e9e306e8_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/878/40715730585_f915494037_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/894/39799658550_6a3f2a0e45_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/910/39799657140_f73d02a7d3_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/792/40715726745_8416089cae_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/893/40715725235_a806de68aa_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/798/39799653010_7f8c9732d3_k.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/939/39799650810_fb4ca8d2d7_k.jpg

[nigelh]

So the big day was today and luckily the weather was beautiful right up until the time we flew north !
I flew both aircraft from the right hand seat . My first impression was that the aircraft was much better looking in the flesh especially with the longer skids and a number of people made the same comment . In fact two or three said they had gone from thinking it was ugly to liking the looks by the end of the day .
Looking around the aircraft it looked well built but with a few things that stood out which I didn't like .
1) The weight on the back of the tail attached to wires I believe is there for c of g ( and apparently you can specify for your aircraft how much weight you want depending on your most normal configuration) and it also acts as a damper for the tail rotor . This looks a bit Heath Robinson and I think it should have a cover to make it look " finished "
2). The door handles look like they will last about a week and lack any design at all .....a bit like a bolt sticking out of the door . But they did work .
I was neutral about the interior . It is utility and I am sure leather trim would make it a lot more hospitable and may create some soundproofing as it is not quiet inside . Good headsets would be a must and I didn't find the noise level a problem flying for 1hr 15 north . The seats were very comfortable , albeit hard and there was pilot legroom for a 7 ft giant ! It was very airy and roomy with plenty of headroom even if 6ft 3" . Start up is a simple as flicking a switch and the Garmin has a load of tricks , including voice activation and a 30 second loop to listen to atc command again at the push of a button . ( Nice if you have a 30 sec memory like me !)
My first flight was in the one with the Fram damper . We were 5 up , with two fat boys in the front and average adults in the back . I can't remember fuel but we were around max . When the demo pilot landed solo the aircraft landed on back of skids ...full we lifted flat . Masses of power ....I mean really plenty !! Good t/r authority but it was only about 6-7 knots wind . A lot of aft cyclic required for hover tail into wind as we were very close to forward c of g limit . 117-120 knots is the smoothest and is in tick over . Max cont gave us 125-126 knots with a little more bounce but nothing uncomfortable and around 230 -240 lb per hour fuel burn . Visibility was absolutely stunning and no real need for chin bubble however I would like window in ceiling so you can see if anything is above you . On the run north I was in another one without the Fram and the bounce was a little more noticeable but really not enough to worry about . So to sum up I think typically , just like with cars , the expert designers have missed a few things that would be easy to make better but overall it is a superb machine for the money , it isn't a squirrel ..but if you buy something with 2 blades you know you are going for the cheap version and ride and control responses will be the price . Remember it is actually an L4 which today would set you back around $2.5m and would have steam driven cockpit ...but two more seats and a broom cupboard. The 505 is therefore approx half the price albeit I heard that the price is likely to escalate as the number of orders gets higher , not surprising as I can't see how it can be cheaper to produce than an L4 . I think that if it really can , and Bell say it can , lift 900kg on the hook then it will be a very economical work horse as well . I will try to put a couple of photos on later .
If I can think of anything else I will post it .
Added.....I think it would very comfortably do over 128 knots when less heavy ( not that I think that is a good idea in event of engine failure ..) . Also judging by the fact that my pax were neither sick nor screamed at any point would indicate it’s a very easy Helicoper to fly . In fact so easy even our friend FH1100 could fly it !!!! ( prepare for incoming part eaten hats ��!!!)

[bellblade2014]

Thanks for the info Nigel. Sounds like a good purchase and I’m hearing good things from the Bell folks about the cargo hook performance. Sounds like a potential business opportunity if you can get your hands on one... I’m a bit jealous.

It’s pretty impressive how many countries are operating them so soon after certifications. Not much comparison to the recently certified helo’s out there there.

[nigelh]

I see you have all been stunned into silence , including FH1100 , by how brilliant the new 505 is !!!!
Would also like to say thank you to Heli Charter for organising the day and supplying food & booze , demo rides etc .
One last thing I forgot was that the Garmins still didn’t have UK data and thought closest airport was in America .....???

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

I can only speak for myself, and im not stunned into silence.
A more fitting description would be lulled into sleep because it sounds underwhelmingly boring still.

[nigelh]

Grey .... if you mean it is not a 407 XP or a flashy new twin or a 350B3e then I think you are correct !!! If , like me , you are an owner who wants as much bang for his buck and a very limited downside... ie high maintenance or depreciation, then this is quite exciting. To be able to buy a brand new turbine , fly it for 500 hours for very little and then sell it for a likely profit , rather than a loss .... well that is very interesting!!
I can see that it would have no interest for a driver / employee however.
( not saying you are either )

[CRAN]

Nigel,

Thanks for your review, sounds like a really good ship. I also think the pictures from the Heli-Charter day look better than the ones in the Bell brochure!!

As I have said before, I think Bell have done really well to get to market at this price point and really hope they don't start escalating the price as you indicated they might.

Are there any options available to upgrade the interior to a more corporate feel at the moment? Is there any news on when an autopilot/sas might be available?

Best Regards,
CRAN

[HeliHenri]

Hello CRAN,

there's the vip interior package "MAGnificent" from Mecaer as an option :

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2018-02-28/mecaer-complete-first-vip-bell-505
.

[CRAN]

Thanks Henri.

I hadn't spotted that.

CRAN
:ok:

[HeliHenri]

You're welcome J :)
A one year old picture :

[claudia]

Nigel. Thank you for the report. Sure sounds very good and I wish you many hours of enjoyable flying. ++ some profit no doubt!!!
Claudia

[nigelh]

Pleasure . I actually tried to be as objective as possible . I think we all know it will be a very capable machine for utility and transport . I wanted to also point out those irritating things that designers always seem to be blind to .... like the Range Rover ...a great car which only sells in such volume because there is no competition, but loads of really irritating things that should not happen to a £100k off road car !! The value for money and total lack of real competition will ensure this sells just as much as it’s good points.

[homonculus]

CRAN

I was told Heathrow Interiors are about to get their hands on at least one of these aircraft. The floats are available 'now' and the Garmin autopilot will be 'deliverable' in September at 70,000 and 30,000 respectively. The latter price seems 'low'

I agree with Nigelh that this is no dog. I thought it smoother than a 206 right up to max cont. Great instumentation and front seat position. Back seats are very upright and not a match on the 120. Also rather noisy, but basic headsets with a missing ear cushion combined with a bare bulkhead didnt help.

[CRAN]

Thanks H.

That's great. I'm surprised Bell don't offer a VIP fit themselves rather than using 3rd party operations, as it would seem that many of these aircraft will be used in that role.

CRAN

[jimmy83]

Well done HelixAv for putting on a great day.

[HeliHenri]

Thanks H.

That's great. I'm surprised Bell don't offer a VIP fit themselves rather than using 3rd party operations, as it would seem that many of these aircraft will be used in that role.

CRAN


Mecaer works regulary with Bell and proposes also the MAGnificent package for the 429. They're doing such a good job that they could be British ! ;)

[peteracer26]

So, can anyone with a 120/experience thereof make a comparison?

A new 505 is probably 400k more than a 120, but with fadec garmin 5000, better useful load and so on? 120 to my eye looks a but better, though I like the 505 - interiors seem better in 120, and a lot cheaper to buy?

On the downside, 505 means no barrel rolling I suppose.

[RMK]

They can only hold one database at a time... Americas or the rest of the world. But assuming you have purchased either one, all it takes is a quick download onto SD card and put the card in the Garmin to load it.
Maybe no-one was willing to pay for it, didn't have access to a card reader, or simply no time ;-)

The newer model Garmin units now hold multiple regions of NavData at once; so no more switching back and forth like the older units. Even the portable Garmin Aera 660 can be loaded with the European and North American charts at the same time (something that was an annoyance on older units).

[nigelh]

Peter... I don’t think your comparison is really correct . You can’t really compare value of a brand new machine with value of a 12-15 year old machine . The 505 is a much cheaper aircraft than the 120 ....probably nearly half the price . The lack of a proper interior in the 505 can be resolved in a number of ways quite easily so not an issue . The other two areas it is not as good as the 120 are noise and manoeuvrability....... there is nothing you can do about those . Where it really scores points are
power ......loads of it . 900kg on hook !!!!
speed ..... genuine 125+ knots max cruise . ( 120 knots more comfy/ economic cruise )
Maintenance .... its a Bell !!!! Of course it will be far and away cheaper than anything French .
So the 120 is a much more expensive, to buy and to run , machine but you cannot just fill with 5 people and fuel and fly away . It is also slower . But it is prettier.
I can see some people moving from the 120 to the 505 just to get the power and the cost savings and I can see the price taking a bit of a knock . At that point if you are only 2-3 up on short flights it would be a great choice . I still believe the 505 will appreciate a lot over the next 3-4 years . I would guess that mine has already gone up by circa 10% and I don’t get delivery until mid July !

[CRAN]

Nigel,

Are you doing anything with the interior of yours, or will you just stick with the factory standard fit?

CRAN

[nigelh]

I think I would like to do something to make it nicer but probably not the cost of a full vip interior . Going to have a chat with Farnborough interiors to see if we can do a cheap fix .... will let you know !

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

I saw one in person finally.
my feelings havent changed much
but my biggest question is why i dont have an attachment function on my phone to upload? I have one on my laptop....

[twinstar_ca]

Where did you see it, gray??

[nigelh]

Not sure what you mean Gray. It was very noticeable that on the day a big number of people did comment that it was really growing on them ....some of that is definitely the longer skids ( which I would like even longer towards the front ...) but I guess it is a bit like Marmite !! Mine is being delivered at the factory on July 25th so hopefully up and flying here by end of August fingers crossed....I just need to sell the 109 now !!

[whoknows idont]

I guess it is a bit like Marmite !!

So you're saying it's disgusting? :yuk:
:)

[nigelh]

Personally I think delicious !!! I do think we are rather overstating the importance of how many people like the looks . The fact is there is no real alternative for anything near the money ......apart from Robinson , which I wouldn't even contemplate .
you are then left with old underpowered 120,s or 350 or 407 at vastly more money .

[Evil Twin]

I've seen one in the flesh and it IS ugly. I think I would also rather have an AS 350 too as it's such a more capable airframe (even if it is french).

Just my personal opinion, I just fly other peoples aircraft, I'm unlikely ever to own one.
ET

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Where did you see it, gray??
the wet coast. N registered. It was passing thru I assume.

[nigelh]

Evil Twin ..... I don’t think you have quite grasped the concept that beauty is in the eye of the beholder !! You stating it IS ugly is just your opinion , there are plenty here who now quite like the new look !!! Personally I have moved from ugly to neutral ...but it definitely looked a lot nicer by the end of the day when I had got used to it .
and your priceless comment....
“would also rather have an AS 350 too as it's such a more capable airframe (even if it is french).” ...... well No sh*t Sherlock 🕵️*♀️ !!!! Again I’m not sure you have grasped the “ money “ concept....... the 505 is not really any competition to the 350 which is probably 3 X the price !!!

[Evil Twin]

Calm down mate, I said the 505 was ugly not your wife or children.

[twinstar_ca]

the wet coast. N registered. It was passing thru I assume.

Thanks, Gray... Apparently there are some C - registered 505's but I haven't been able to see one yet....

[206 jock]

I've seen a 505 in the flesh a couple of times now and I'm also a neutral. The old adage 'if it looks right, it flies right' is a difficult one to see past.

What IS interesting is the values of good 206s have stabilised and at the sweet spot of the market, gone up (as have MD500s apparently). Late (90s on) JetRangers not so much so, as the values look expensive compared to the 505. But for an 80s BIII, I think people are recognising that the 505 does little more (normal everyday use etc etc) at 3 times the price. And it doesn't have a frightening French engine.

[nigelh]

I think you are probably right that for the average private owner an old 80,s 206 will do everything that you will do in a 505 .... an extra 10 knots or so and more power is not really going to make much difference .....like my 109 Mk2 @ $500k it is around 1/10 the price of a Grand but will do almost the same thing ..... 6 pax and 145knots and ifr !!!!
so I quite see your point !!

ps Evil ....you are quite right ..I was being over protective!!! I think I will just concentrate on how it performs in the field . That will determine if it is a worthy replacement for the good old 206 !

[Spunk]

Some other points to consider in favour of the 505:

two blades = less hangar space required

How about maintenance intervals? Anything comparable on the 505 as the 15 hours inspection on the MR hub of the EC120 which can be a real pain if you don’t have your own maintenance facility?

[toptobottom]

the 15 hours inspection on the MR hub of the EC120 which can be a real pain

Nonsense. Every 120 operator/owner I know has been authorised to do this themselves, after a short training session. It takes 2 minutes and arguably formalises a normal check in the thinking man’s list of responsibilities!

What’s the story with TT straps on the 505?

[Spunk]

Nonsense. Every 120 operator/owner I know has been authorised to do this themselves, after a short training session. It takes 2 minutes and arguably formalises a normal check in the thinking man’s list of responsibilities!

Don’t mix the 15h/7days inspection (which can be performed by an aircrew member) with the EASA AD 2010-026-E which can only be signed of by maintenance certifying staff (at least in my country and if operated under 965/2012)

[SuperF]

It is LR running gear so you will be stuck with straps every 3 years, until they drag it out to 4 years. That would be the biggest maint expense for the first few years for a private owner, not so much of a problem for reasonable usage in a commercial situation.

[nigelh]

I believe you also only pay for the hours used so it would not be a big sum for a private owner . Maybe the life will be extended...I know I would be quite happy to fly with 5 year old TT straps !!

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Don’t mix the 15h/7days inspection (which can be performed by an aircrew member) with the EASA AD 2010-026-E which can only be signed of by maintenance certifying staff (at least in my country and if operated under 965/2012)

this is off of the ASB in question.

1.G.1. Qualification 1 Mechanic or 1 pilot with appropriate training and certification, in accordance with the local regulation in force.

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

I believe you also only pay for the hours used so it would not be a big sum for a private owner . Maybe the life will be extended...I know I would be quite happy to fly with 5 year old TT straps !!
wouldn't that be great... a calendar life'd item that you only pay for the hours you used. such a novel concept. I'm sure every manufacture cringes at that accounting boondoggle.

[toptobottom]

ASB 05A012

The initial inspection of the main rotor hub per the requirements in this AD must be accomplished by a maintenance engineer. The repetitive inspections per paragraph 2.B.2.a and figure 1 in ASB 05A012 may be accomplished by adding the inspection requirement to the tech log. The repetitive visual inspection may be performed and certified under the provision in Part 43 Appendix A.1 (7) by the holder of a current pilot licence, if that person is rated on the aircraft, appropriately trained and authorised (Part 43, Subpart B refers), and the maintenance is recorded and certified as required by Part 43.

[whoknows idont]

I do think we are rather overstating the importance of how many people like the looks . The fact is there is no real alternative for anything near the money ......apart from Robinson , which I wouldn't even contemplate .
you are then left with old underpowered 120,s or 350 or 407 at vastly more money .
100% agreed. As stated before. I just had couldn't resist jumping on your remark about that unspeakable spread (which I still secretly suspect of being a mixture of coal tar, pulverized cockroaches and fermented engine oil).
I don't think I will ever be able to find the 505 pretty but it really is unimportant. If I was in the market for one, it certainly wouldn't matter to me.
The way it looks is certainly polarising. And who knows, maybe in the end this will prevent new and used market values from reaching unreasonable levels.
Btw, I really liked the roomy and uncluttered utility-style interior. Anyone who has ever removed and installed the interior lining in a 206 will certainly appreciate that. Very clean cockpit that I immediately felt at home in. All in all it appears to be a very nice helicopter and it this point I would be very suprised if it would flop.

[Spunk]

@toptobottom
ASB 05A012
I guess I have to talk to my aviation authority once more. So far they turned down my application :”mechanic only”

[claudia]

SuperF and Nigel. Bell took 40years to extend the strap life one year ie from 2 to 3 years.
They were always going to extend it "next year" but never happened until recently.
At that rate we will see 4 year life in 2058 and 5 years in 2098.!!
But a very minor issue in what appears to be a great machine.

[SuperF]

Claudia, I would think that airwolf will get an increase on the PMA straps and then a few years later Bell will follow....

[claudia]

SuperF. You could well be correct but I think my previous post makes the point
very well.--- dont hold your breath waiting on it. !!

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

It is LR running gear so you will be stuck with straps every 3 years, until they drag it out to 4 years. That would be the biggest maint expense for the first few years for a private owner, not so much of a problem for reasonable usage in a commercial situation.

Interesting to add regarding Airwolf Straps:

Rotorcraft
Bell Textron - Canada, 206B
Cracked Tension Torsion Strap Urethane Coating
SDR #: 20170808010
Subject:
During a routine 3 year calendar tension/torsion strap change, cracks were found in the urethane casing of the strap. This exposes the stainless steel wires to the elements.
Transport Canada Comments:
Cracks in the urethane protective coating of any tension/torsion strap could lead to internal corrosion of the straps. Visual inspection of the straps should be conducted whenever the opportunity is available to do so. The Australian Civil Aviation Authority has issued Airworthiness Bulletin 63-009 recommending inspection of the straps for cracks in the coating. Similarly, Bell Helicopter has issued Alert Service Bulletin 206-13-130 introducing a reduction to the life limit and removal of some part numbered straps. If cracks are found in the urethane coating of any manufactures tension/torsion straps please submit a Service Difficulty Report for each occurrence.

[FlimsyFan]

I’ve been watching this thread with some interest. No secret that I’m an R66 owner, and standard Robbo bashing aside, I’m genuinely interested to see how this ship performs.

Maybe questions best directed to Nigel, but interested in any views:

Heard that tail boom has been lifed at 500hrs. Is that true? What would replacement cost and how long would that take?

What basis is a 10% appreciation in value centred on?

I can’t fault your enthusiasm and excitement about a new machine, but from the sidelines I do worry that the early smugness may prove to be a little premature. I sincerely hope the aircraft is everything you hope it will be.

We are looking to replace our R66 in due course, but mast bumping aside, I personally feel the 505 would not constitute a significant upgrade - on paper if anything it is more power and endurance limited.

I’m not trying to take the piss, genuinely keen to hear your thoughts. We will most likely go for a Bell product next so be eager to hear how you go on.

FF

[SuperF]

FlimsyFan

The 505 will blow the 66 away. It is a Long Ranger with a different body, so it will lift far more than a 66 could ever dream of, therefore at any set load it will out perform it. Having sat in one over Easter this year, there is far more room in the back than the 66.

Personally if i was looking at a machine about that size and price range i would get a good second hand Long Ranger, pretty it up with new paint/ Interior etc and still have a couple hundred change...

[nigelh]

I tend to agree with Super F . The 505 is , I believe , in a different league to the 66 .... but I would think that as I really don’t like Robinson’s at all !!!
I flew the 505 again last w/e from London to Yorkshire and was once again really impressed with it . Comfortable, smooth at 120 knots . I would still prefer another AS350 but you are talking double ( yes I really think an old 350 would cost that ) the running costs and flimsy cabin and crap seats . Just on the money side the 505 is compelling but is it a great helicopter ?
Not while it has 2 blades and TT straps !

[gulliBell]

How does manual reversion work in the 505X if both FADEC channels fail? Straight forward in twins because the good engine still looks after rotor speed control, but in a single?

[FH1100 Pilot]

My guess would be that such a failure would result in the loss of engine power and an autorotation. My other guess would be that a dual FADEC failure would *never* happen.

[bellblade2014]

My guess would be that such a failure would result in the loss of engine power and an autorotation. My other guess would be that a dual FADEC failure would *never* happen.

Bell walked me through this before... if both channels fail, it has a 3rd backup unit that provides similar governing of the rpm, just slower and more exaggerated... so more likely to droop or overspeed if you monkey with collective too much.

If that 3rd backup fails. The fuel flow freezes at previous setting... so very challenging to fly around without droop or OS. They said you would want to cruise for a bit, but quickly find a landing spot and turn engine off and execute autorotation landing.

[gulliBell]

Does the FADEC offer soft limiting for when operating at high power setting, or does it just stop the power when you reach a limit?

[bellblade2014]

Does the FADEC offer soft limiting for when operating at high power setting, or does it just stop the power when you reach a limit?

I don’t know. But the way the Bell test pilot described the engine controls sounded smooth under all conditions...

[nigelh]

My God FH1100 ... you have mellowed !!!! Welcome back we were missing you !!

[500e]

There we go 'nigelh another tick
https://www.verticalmag.com/press-releases/bell-505-cargo-hook-receives-faa-certification/?utm_source=vertical-daily-news-todays-news&utm_campaign=vertical-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=todays-news&utm_content=V1

[nigelh]

Well I hope all those who slagged this Helicoper off saying it wouldn’t go fast , wouldn’t lift 900kg , wouldn’t get built etc etc are now eating humble pie ( hat) !!

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

it does what it does...so do alot of other helicopters.
But they do it while looking better :ok:

[nigelh]

You just can’t help yourself can you .....

[gulliBell]

Well I hope all those who slagged this Helicoper off saying it wouldn’t go fast , wouldn’t lift 900kg..

Does it lift 900kg on the hook, really? That comes as a surprise. Some days I struggle to lift 900kg in a 212...depending how far I have to fly it, of course.

[John Eacott]

I had a good poke and prod at the 505 parked at RotorTech 2018 on the Sunshine Coast today, and got some replies to a few questions such as the 900kg on the hook; apparently the Max Gross is increased by 360kg for load ops, and an operator in NZ is reported as working 700-760kg with an hour and a half of fuel.


The interior is very reminiscent of the EC120, although a bit more basic with little in the way of trim: even the solid overhead (no windows there) looks likely to be a source of drumming noise and just looks dismal. Seats are comfortable but I was told that prior to take off the front seats must be adjusted fully forward; but maybe I misunderstood as it seems a peculiar requirement.


Luggage access is on the pilot's side and fuel on the left side, a reversal of the JR family: the access door for the luggage is relatively small and certainly won't allow large cases to be loaded, eg production company's Pelican cases or large suitcases. The fuel filler is recessed under a flush cover, with what seems to be a large unused area at the top of the tank. Ripe for an after market range extender?


The skids are very average and will be a challenge for most pilots if landing on a trolley, as the skid toe is pretty much level with the pilot's backside and well out of the line of sight. As mentioned the tail treatment is very average, and a tail cone cover is Work In Progress.


Very superficial observations, the Bell pilot is of the opinion that it flies very nicely at 120-125kias, but thinks most operators will stick around 115 cruise for better fuel economy.


My two cents worth: and apparently the current new price is up around $US1.3mil, and fully optioned will bump that out to $US1.4 - 1.5.

[gulliBell]

...apparently the current new price is up around $US1.3mil, and fully optioned will bump that out to $US1.4 - 1.5.

I would have thought the air-conditioning option alone would have bumped the price up more than that.

[nigelh]

With all the extras it will be around $1.6 as a guess . I didn’t bother with synthetic vision and TCAS but went for Radalt , Frahm damper and hook provisions.
Think 900kg is possible with standard weight pilot and 40 mins fuel so probably one drop at a time .... but still impressive!!

[Bell_ringer]

at 1.6 you're heading into the lower end of the used 407 market.

[nigelh]

Irrelevant I think ! You are also higher than the used S76 , A 109 Power . And you could buy 3 Agusta 109 Mk2 ,s for the same price !!!! Mine is now below £350k fresh out of annual !!

[HeliHenri]

.
Hello nigelh,
which color are you choosing ? classic :( or flashy :ok: ?
.

[nigelh]

I chickened out and went for the dark blue with tan leather ... classic ! May do a crazy wrap if I can find out more about it and check legals but being on the G it is bound to be a no !!!
Ps Did cruise the other day at steady 130 knots right on edge of yellow line !

[SuperF]

John, I had a look at one at Warbirds over Wanaka early this year and from what i understand you need to push the seat right back to be able to get in and out easily, which is why you slide it forward for flight. I think its a W&B thing, and i guess where you can reach the pedals.

I climbed in with the seat right forward, it was a bit difficult, as the door pillar is in the way, but not sure how easy that is going to make it to sling out of? or what happens if you crash and cant slide the seat back....

[gulliBell]

Irrelevant I think ! You are also higher than the used S76...

Correct. Used S76 (flyable) have been selling for as low as $250K.

[John Eacott]

John, I had a look at one at Warbirds over Wanaka early this year and from what i understand you need to push the seat right back to be able to get in and out easily, which is why you slide it forward for flight. I think its a W&B thing, and i guess where you can reach the pedals.

I climbed in with the seat right forward, it was a bit difficult, as the door pillar is in the way, but not sure how easy that is going to make it to sling out of? or what happens if you crash and cant slide the seat back....


That makes sense, maybe I wasn't listening: as usual.


There's another 505 down at Sanctuary Cove Boat Show, but the crowds have put me off bothering to visit. May be worth having a look if it has an overall better interior although the one at RotorTech has the leather seats and they looked quite smart.

[Salusa]

900kg on hook I doubt very much Maybe on specs but not realistic 212 will struggle at 1k .Good luck with new machine Looks like a good one

[Nubian]

Well I hope all those who slagged this Helicoper off saying it wouldn’t go fast , wouldn’t lift 900kg , wouldn’t get built etc etc are now eating humble pie ( hat) !!
The article says the hook is certified for 2000lbs. I am wondering how this amazing bird will be able to lift 900kg's which is the same as the L4, which has about the same empty weights and has the L4 drivetrain, but about 150shp less engine power?! It has the same engine as in the EC120, which has a hook rating of 700kg, but that is also a theoretical limit. So, what is the secret??

Our hook is rated for 3500lbs, but it does not mean we're able to lift anywhere close to that legally or not...

I'll order pie when I see it lift a 900kg air conditioner

Otherwise, I doubt you'll be doing that sort of work so it should probably be a great machine for you. All the best with it.

[Mee3]

the same engine as in the EC120, which has a hook rating of 700kg, but that is also a theoretical limit. .
Throw out the seats , doors and ballast you can come very close to that on an EC120. Knew a guy did that for an adhoc job.

[nigelh]

if you look at the figures you have approx 2300 lb from empty weight to max ( 4500lb) . I think this means a 100lb pilot can take off with 2-300lb fuel with 2000lb on the hook . We shall see if many operators manage this . My guess would be around 1500lb would be the norm .

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

I hate to be the bearer of bad new Nigel, but I am not certain that one single manufacturer has ever been realistic in their published numbers.
Its all smoke and mirrors for the real world performance.

You can't just whip out a calculator and do some basic math and say, yup, i'm gonna lift that.

Theres alot more to consider. And in most cases it falls short on expectations.

I'm still not sure why you're so pumped for it. are you looking at production longlinging at some point? or just lifting some camping gear once in a blue moon across a river?
Its like a guy buying a ferrari and excited to put a tow bar on it so he can pull a utility trailer to the cottage.

[nigelh]

Well Grey , we shall see . I don’t think your analogy is a good one at all . Maybe you should look at the other aircraft out there that can lift 8-900 kg and look at the prices . I think the 505 could find itself a very popular lifting machine if it can do say 25% less than the 350 at a price of 50% less . ( and in my experience aircraft can usually do what is in the manual and in the graphs . If mine cannot I will ask for a refund !!! )

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

what will you do with your money when you get it back? get a ferrari and a trailer hitch and go to the cottage to sulk?

[nigelh]

You are a very jealous little boy Grey !!!!

and there will be no sulking ! I will sell , make a really healthy profit on the $ and look at buying a 350D2 ( think that’s the one with the 101 engine ?) and fly that instead ......or even keep my 109 and carry on with that . So not too much to sulk about .... !!
How about you ? ..

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

well, considering i scrape by paycheck to paycheck because i'm underprivileged and had to earn my way thru life, I'll likely do just fine. It cant get much worse.

[whoknows idont]

if you look at the figures you have approx 2300 lb from empty weight to max ( 4500lb) . I think this means a 100lb pilot can take off with 2-300lb fuel with 2000lb on the hook . We shall see if many operators manage this . My guess would be around 1500lb would be the norm .

Good luck finding a jockey like that with a valid medical nowadays...

[gulliBell]

Good luck finding a jockey like that with a valid medical nowadays...

They are out there...I heard Cathay Pacific raided the local ballet schools and found some 100 lb jockeys to put in their Boeings. Although I think there were some issues with feet being able to reach the pedals.

[nigelh]

I think I meant 200lb !!!! Long time since I was 100.......!

[Nige321]

GrayHorizonsHeli.
Are you FH100 Pilot in a wig by any chance...?:ugh:

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

GrayHorizonsHeli.
Are you FH100 Pilot in a wig by any chance...?:ugh:

yeah.... no.

just because there is more than one person that doesn't like a product, doesn't mean they're the same person.
If you recall, someone posted I was Nigel once because we were both online with-in a minute of each other.


Bell has and always will produce good products. But their design team needs a major refresh....

[as350nut]

Had a good look at the 505 at Rotortech and attended the Bell talk, the figures given on maintenance and overhaul times certainly looked like a lot of thought had gone in to that area, and praise where it is due. But I was not that impressed with the aircraft in terms of design and finish, my main gripes are:
basically a bolt used as door handle
no interior head liner, with exposed nut heads in roof
pilot side door jamb, where you access the rear seating is very weak, can bend it with your hand, the other side which is normal pax entry seems ok though
collective/seat/pedal setup to get in looks like it will need a bit of dexterity in and out, but I suppose Squirell is a bit like that
horizontal stabiliser bolted on looks like an afterthought
weight pack of back of tail looks weird
While there is nothing glaringly wrong, it doesn't look like a refined and beautiful design, more like a Detroit truck. A lost opportunity maybe?

[KiwiNedNZ]

If you have a look at my ongoing photo thread just posted some photos of Rangitikei Helicopters new 505 out topdressing here in NZ

[RVDT]

as350nut,

I share your opinions - had a close look at one at Heli Expo.

To me it seems to share the design philosophy of the Bell Ranger - 47J.

Steel tube frame anyone? Lots of screws. Seems that they took the 206L dynamics as a starting point then did everything else as cheap and nasty as possible.

With 20/20 hindsight, from an operators perspective, any helicopter model you see around with more than 20K hours in service on any one of them seems to be a benchmark. There are only a few.

[nigelh]

So now we have an operator regularly lifting 800kg on the hook and flying in the green ......... even more hat eating to be done !!!

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Did you get your 505 yet Nigel?

[nigelh]

Off to Canada on Tuesday to do the acceptance flight !
trouble is that since I have had the old 109 spruced up I am beginning to have second thoughts ..... yesterday I flew from Yorkshire ( north of England ) to the isle of Wyte which is off the south coast. ( 210nm) . Wife , dogs etc autopilot and loads of luggage we cruise @145 knots , dead smooth and land 1 hr 20 later .
The 505 is a great Helicopter I believe , but it is a BMW ....the 109 is an Aston Martin .....and I am paying 4 x the price for the 505 !!!
I love the 109 ,so have decided that unless I can get a half sensible price for it I may as well keep it and sell the 505 and maybe get another one later .
It seems I would be £100k better off flying / leasing 200 hrs over the next few months and then selling it for parts . You never know it may do the next 400 hrs without a blip and I would make a load more . Maybe someone wants to build multi engine hours cheap and wants to burn up 100 hrs in a couple of weeks ?!!

[Aluminium Mallard]

Off to Canada on Tuesday to do the acceptance flight !
trouble is that since I have had the old 109 spruced up I am beginning to have second thoughts ..... yesterday I flew from Yorkshire ( north of England ) to the isle of Wyte which is off the south coast. ( 210nm) . Wife , dogs etc autopilot and loads of luggage we cruise @145 knots , dead smooth and land 1 hr 20 later .
The 505 is a great Helicopter I believe , but it is a BMW ....the 109 is an Aston Martin .....and I am paying 4 x the price for the 505 !!!
I love the 109 ,so have decided that unless I can get a half sensible price for it I may as well keep it and sell the 505 and maybe get another one later .
It seems I would be £100k better off flying / leasing 200 hrs over the next few months and then selling it for parts . You never know it may do the next 400 hrs without a blip and I would make a load more . Maybe someone wants to build multi engine hours cheap and wants to burn up 100 hrs in a couple of weeks ?!!

I have been following this thread for a while... actually checked the post date wasn't April 1 after reading that!

[Velocirotor]

Off to Canada on Tuesday to do the acceptance flight !
trouble is that since I have had the old 109 spruced up I am beginning to have second thoughts ..... yesterday I flew from Yorkshire ( north of England ) to the isle of Wyte which is off the south coast. ( 210nm) . Wife , dogs etc autopilot and loads of luggage we cruise @145 knots , dead smooth and land 1 hr 20 later .
The 505 is a great Helicopter I believe , but it is a BMW ....the 109 is an Aston Martin .....and I am paying 4 x the price for the 505 !!!
I love the 109 ,so have decided that unless I can get a half sensible price for it I may as well keep it and sell the 505 and maybe get another one later .
It seems I would be £100k better off flying / leasing 200 hrs over the next few months and then selling it for parts . You never know it may do the next 400 hrs without a blip and I would make a load more . Maybe someone wants to build multi engine hours cheap and wants to burn up 100 hrs in a couple of weeks ?!!


How did it go?
I am actively considering ordering a 505. I went to Namur in June to participate in a demo session and was favourably impressed although I did not find the "feel/power" to be very diffrerent from the 206 I used to fly. In other words I expected more power, but what can you tell after 10 minutes of flight, let's be serious.
I am eager to have your first impressions and your feedback, Nigel. Thank you

[nigelh]

I tried to pm you but you need to delete some private messages as your box is full ......
Basically it is an amazing helicopter and I am sure you will do very well buying one before the price gets significantly hiked up . As I have said before , it is a 5 place L4 with a glass cockpit for 50% of the price of a new L4 based on its final price .
i believe they will appreciate in value and be cheap to run in comparison to say a 350 B2 . We flew at near max weight with high temperatures and we climbed out quick with loads to spare . Top speed in cruise was 128 knots but 120 knots felt
gentler . Tail rotor authority was very good and the ride was incredibly smooth . Go and buy one !!!!
if you want to fly mine it will be here and ready to fly by the end of the month ....

[Velocirotor]

Just saw that message that my box was full... I emptied it. Thank you so much for this feedback. Very convincing. I am moving forward : investigating what maintenance facility could take care of it not too far from where I live (not so many in France do Bell), discussing insurance quotes, how to get my QT (no certified French instructors yet), etc... But these are details... Very close to making the jump. Merci encore for your response.

[cattletruck]

Please post pictures of your cheesy grins with your new toys in the background when they arrive.

[nigelh]

Velocirotor ..... make me a bid on mine if you want to jump the queue . I am having mine rebuilt at Heliwork at Thruxton. Come over and try it !

[Velocirotor]

Thought you were delighted with the 505!?! Why are you already selling it?
Thanks for the invitation that I will probably honor of you have not sold it before Christmas. I have a flight under préparation to London for December

[nigelh]

Don’t want to sell it but I also don’t really want two helicopters!! I am trying to sell my 109 but am not prepared to give it away especially as it’s just come out of Annual and is flying beautifully!! I did a trip the other day and flew at 130 knots ( approx same speed as 505 ) and it used just 170 litres an hour ...not bad !

[whoknows idont]

Nigel, IMHO this thread has taken a seriously anticlimactic turn ever since you're trying to get rid of that A/C that you so heavily advertised for the whole time. I'm anticipating a certain hat to be uneaten in celebration. :hmm:
That must have been quite the paramount annual performed on your 109!

[nigelh]

I don’t really understand your point !
The 505 is fabulously and I would love to keep it .
The 109 needs to be sold . If I can’t sell it then I have no choice but to sell the 505 !!! Simples ...

[whoknows idont]

You seemed to be very eager to put your 505 to work ASAP at the fixed running cost due to warranty and m/x program as long as it roughly does what it says on the box. If I remember correctly you even considered buying a second one a while back.

The 505 is a great Helicopter I believe , but it is a BMW ....the 109 is an Aston Martin .....and I am paying 4 x the price for the 505 !!!

Were you not aware of that the whole time anyway? I thought you bought the 505 as a work horse? What changed?

[Velocirotor]

I must admit I have the same questions as whoknows. As I am new to this forum and have done quite a bit of investigation to choose my future new turbine, I had enjoyed reading the full 35 pages of threads since 2014 on the 505 this past week. I found them very interesting. I had - without knowing the individuals behind - gradually fell at ease with certain logic patterns and arguments developed by certain members and less by other whose logic and analytical objectivity seemed biased or simply dictated by emotions or speculations instead of facts. I identified quite a bit with your approach nigelh, especially because your praise for the 505 was strong and consistent over months. It did not seem your approach was from some kind of impulse buying (which is fine too!). But I am now quite puzzled... When I ordered my Porsche 911 Targa GTS last year, it is because I had decided to sell my old Lamborghini Espada. And when I received the 911, that's just what I did. To put instantly my 911 for sale the day I received it would just mean that I regretted buying it and/or wanted to keep my Espada. Which is another way to say that I would have realized I had made a mistake. But perhaps we French are not enough "creative" and narrow in our imagination of possible logic patterns. In any case, I am sure you will be able to sell it! Would love to rent some hours from you if you have not sold it before Christmas as I mentioned prior. A bientôt.

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

I need to see pics of Nigels machines.
I'm beginning to think they are mythical.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Guys, go easy on Nigel. It should be easy to see his conundrum. He's got a 109 which is obviously a beautiful, sexy ship. But the market for used 109's may be...well...not very robust. There are about 50 of them for sale on Controller.com. You can pick up a "nice" older one with some time remaining for around USD $500,000 - yikes! Versus $1.5 million for a 505?

Sell the 109?

A potential 109 buyer will know that he's got the 505 and needs to "dump" the twin (even if that is not absolutely true). It's superfluous. Hmm, not exactly a great bargaining position. And remember, the luxurious 109 does nearly everything the 505 can, faster...smoother...with twin-engine reliability/safety (whatever that is worth to you) and not much more fuel burn. Better warranty on the 505, yes, but a lower loan rate on the 109. Decisions, decisions.... If I was a private owner who didn't fly much every year, I'd be sorely tempted to keep the 109.

But through perhaps naive exuberance, Nigel got in relatively early on the 505, and he's set up for delivery even before the ship has made much of an impact (sorry about the pun) into the U.S. market! Every pilot report we've read describes the 505 as performing as advertised but seems...well..."unfinished." We are promised that such finishing touches will come "later," certainly at greater cost and weight. We are warned that the low, low introductory price of "around $1 million" may soon be increasing substantially. It is undeniable that Bell rushed the ship to market to eat away at R-66 sales (and generate some much-needed cash at Bell to be sure).

If I were Nigel and had a perfectly good 109 sitting around collecting dust, I don't know what I'd do. We all like "new." But seriously, you can't really tell how old a 109 is unless you're an aficionado. It's like a 206 in that regard: "Oh, it's got the small square outside door handles...hmm...must be a '70s model." And so probably, like him I'd take delivery of the 505, keep it for a while while talking glowingly about it, and then, while it still has some warranty left, put it on the market to see if I could get my money out of it. And keep flying my 109.

Admit it, you would too.

[Velocirotor]

Good points, FH. Makes sense. I get Nigel's dilemma. I am going to give myself the quarter to come to a decision which light turbine I will order. The homework continues...

[nigelh]

FH 1100 ..... well I would never have believed it !!! After locking horns so many times you then put in a message that is almost 100% spot on !!
The 109 is an amazing machine which , for a private owner , does almost everything almost as well as a new 109 but for a couple of Mil less !! My house guests this week thought it was my new helicopter when they saw it ( admittedly from 50m away !) . When I bought the 505 is was a gamble ... it was 4 years ago and I never expected to still have the 109 ...they were then selling for $5-800k and were popular . Now suddenly they are struggling to fetch $400k and arguably are now cheaper to run due to so many sold for parts . Now if I sell 200 hrs over the next year for £1,000 hr and a big item comes up ... I can sell it probably for £150k for parts ...( £200k less £50k maintenance etc = £150k .. then £150k sale = £300k)
Result . Then I have option to do a second year which IF it goes the same would produce £400k less 2 x £50k = £300k plus £150k sale ... £450k Result !
That is my position .... if I get a couple of trouble free years it almost doubles the value to me as at present I can’t even sell it for £275k !!!!!
As for the 505 ... I can always buy another one and will be sad to sell it but needs must . If I had a contract for it to go on I would consider keeping both so let me know everyone if you know of a good paying contract for the next 12 months !!!!
Lastly I may syndicate the 109 and sell 1/4 shares for £75k and stay in and manage it .....
ps .... you really need to fly the 505 to see how capable it is and yes the finish is “ basic “ and I will do an interior of sorts if I keep mine . And yes the door handles are a joke !!

[Agile]

I know what happened. Nigel finally realized (what we knew all along) that he 505 is not a good looking aircraft, especially side by side with the 109 ageless beauty.
its simple thinking but, the looks will always rule especially if money does not talk louder.

[nigelh]

Agile ... I can only assume you are not an owner / operator !!!! To us the looks are way way down the scale of importance !!! For me the economies rule every time . The 109 is more expensive to run ... but nowadays 9 out of ten charters or leases are for twins . That was not the case 10-15 years ago but steadily the single has been dropped by operators due to the lack of demand and now most aoc operators just use twins for charter.
I will post some photos when it arrives but I can honestly say it looks pretty cool in its dark blue and tan Seats ...!!

[FH1100 Pilot]

Oh Nigel.... We all know that you're "invested" in the 505, personally as well as financially. And so we accept a little bias. But please, no amount of lipstick is going to make that pig look good. In fact, I'd bet (and you know me and bets) that there's nobody on the planet (besides you) who thinks the 505 is a "good-looking" (or even "pretty") helicopter - especially compared to a 109 or 206. Both Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles agree that the 505 is ugly (Stevie notes that it needs longer skids). The 505 is like the original OH-4A, of which marketing guy at the time Dwayne Jose said, "Lord Jesus, this thing is uglier than Golda Meir! It makes Stan's design look like Jayne Friggin' Mansfield - and you know how much I like those big bazooms! Errr...can we get Agusta or someone to design a better fuselage for this atrocity so Ed Ducayet doesn't kill it outright? I mean, my job is on the line here, dudes."

That's what Bell should've done with the 505.

[nigelh]

FH .... I knew it was too good to be true !! Back to form being an old has been chippy buffoon 🙈

[noooby]

Velocirotor, you sold your Espada!!!! Oh the humanity!

[krypton_john]

Oh Nigel.... We all know that you're "invested" in the 505, personally as well as financially. And so we accept a little bias. But please, no amount of lipstick is going to make that pig look good. In fact, I'd bet (and you know me and bets) that there's nobody on the planet (besides you) who thinks the 505 is a "good-looking" (or even "pretty") helicopter - especially compared to a 109 or 206. Both Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles agree that the 505 is ugly (Stevie notes that it needs longer skids). The 505 is like the original OH-4A, of which marketing guy at the time Dwayne Jose said, "Lord Jesus, this thing is uglier than Golda Meir! It makes Stan's design look like Jayne Friggin' Mansfield - and you know how much I like those big bazooms! Errr...can we get Agusta or someone to design a better fuselage for this atrocity so Ed Ducayet doesn't kill it outright? I mean, my job is on the line here, dudes."

That's what Bell should've done with the 505.
I think it looks fine. Certainly better than a Robinson, Brantly, SA315, bo105 and FH1100!

[Washeduprotorgypsy]

Both Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles agree that the 505 is ugly (

Best not to trifle with the opinions of great visionaries there.........although I suspect it might have ballz like Golda Meir.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Nigel, every time...every damn time I think you've developed a light-hearted spirit and a sense of humour, you prove me wrong.

Do you have to take everything SO seriously and personally? If I took every insult personally that's ever been hurled at me on this forum (most of them from you) I would've killed myself years ago.

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Saw one up close today.
SN 65088
i backed away slowly and left it in the corner of the hanger where it belongs.
cant upload a pic...perhaps thats secret code for let it die in peace

[helipixman]

I see Nigelh has registered his Bell 505 G-IGGI.........

Can we see some photos of your new machine please ?

[nigelh]

It arrived in Southampton on Monday and is being rebuilt next week . I have never posted photos so I may need an idiots guide !!! It will be ( sadly ) tentatively going on the market soon but I am still hoping to sell my 109 and have it priced at silly money now but one of them has to go !!!! I now have three people interested in 25% share @ £75k plus vat and have a plan that could result in v cheap flying ( sub 206 price ) in which case I would keep both ! For a quick sale I would go even cheaper ......��

[helipixman]

Hi nigelh

I have sent you a PM.... I would post the pictures for you.

Helipixman

[chopper2004]

In my other neck of the woods, I attended the Helidays / Hafenfest 2018 last weekend. Friday fly in , weather was rain rain and cold.The last time I saw Foxtrot Whiskey was back in February, during customer flight demonstration on the ramp at KGVT during Heli Expo (I was in the Bell 429).

Foxtrot Whiskey has been in Europe since April on customer demo tours, having being offloaded at Zeebrugge (?) looked after by local Bell/Robbo reps Air Technology then made its way to Germany. Anyhow here are my photos from last weekend.

Cheers

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1888/43944997474_f4aaf7b4d5_k.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1876/44614351512_8f91c86757_k.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1841/44614347592_7fc57ad06a_k.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1863/44614344742_9e3a9a6589_k.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1896/43944985914_42def700ef_k.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1863/44663810851_07c21c88dc_b.jpg

[krypton_john]

I really think the 505 looks fine. The only thing I wish it had was longer skids, but only because of the look. Presumably the engineers made them that way because of... maths.

[Aluminium Mallard]

I really think the 505 looks fine. The only thing I wish it had was longer skids, but only because of the look. Presumably the engineers made them that way because of... maths.
Agree. Should look a bit better on high skids too!

What is going on with the cyclic and collective though? Could have provided some switch blanks for bucketing etc... ive seen more realistic looking controls on computer joysticks! Shame they didnt use the l4 one with the "armament fire" button :)

[500e]

Here you go nigelh
https://www.verticalmag.com/press-releases/bell-505-magnificent-interior-receives-stcs/?utm_source=vertical-daily-news-todays-news&utm_campaign=vertical-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=todays-news&utm_content=V1

[KiwiNedNZ]

Interesting, some of the "MAGnificent" interiors I have shot in Bell 429s leave a lot to be desired. Ill fitting sections etc. Hope the 505 versions are finished much better.

[helipixman]

It arrived in Southampton on Monday and is being rebuilt next week . I have never posted photos so I may need an idiots guide !!! It will be ( sadly ) tentatively going on the market soon but I am still hoping to sell my 109 and have it priced at silly money now but one of them has to go !!!! I now have three people interested in 25% share @ £75k plus vat and have a plan that could result in v cheap flying ( sub 206 price ) in which case I would keep both ! For a quick sale I would go even cheaper ......��

This is the 109 nigelh currently has...
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x800/thumbnail_img_0454_6bc63c6741552c767596341a54984d6a625d4068. jpg
Helipixman

[Flying Bull]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x800/27717292_0e15_4938_8ce2_54f06eb2c1dc_ac1a3513c57be46683f2187 09229c504033665e6.jpeg

Flying the Bell 505
Hi PPRUNE ers,

after following this thread for quite a while, I used the chance today, offered by Agrarflug-Helilift and Bell, especially Tim Otteson, to make up my mind on the real machine.
OK, it is probably not winning the helicopter design award - but as long as design follows usability it seems ok.
Get a cool paint job and things look better ;-)

On the pro side, easy entry, good seats - more later, pedals easily adjustable.
The overhead panel is gone, you only find there the rotor brake and the fuel shut off lever.
Com-connection is on the right side of the pilotseat, which one has to get used to.
The cable either over the right shoulder or over the belly ;-)
Good battery, Tim used plenty of time to explain the glascockpit with battery on - no issue at all.
Baggage compartment moved compared to the Bell 206 but is still spacy.
I would also put on the pro side, that rotor head / tail rotor assembly is still Bell 206, rugged and proven over years (ok, no negative G, but easy to hangarage and maintain with existing facilities)
Other might have wanted something completely new, but the 505 is the JetRanger X, so its ok for me.
What caught my eye is the easy - and fast start of the engine up to ground idle. The FADEC is doing a good work there. Also accelerating to flight idle is easy.
Even better would be, if you won´t have to switch on the generator after start. I´m used to just check its on after reaching ground idle on the models I usually fly.

Flying
It was quite a while since my last SE flight and without stabilising systems.
Well, I hope, I did´t disappoint Tim to much ;-)
It was nearly no wind but tail rotor authority seemed much better as I recall from my 206 days.
Hovering, transitioning and flying was straight forward.
Close to the Bell 206 but with better tail rotor authority and lots of power available.
On the short hopp I did´t went to max speed but I felt some vibration coming with increasing speed.
The question will be, could tracking reduce that, so that prolonged flight at higher speeds are more comfy?
Probably, cause the bird was brand new, as well as the blades.
Up to around 100 KIAS everything was quite smooth, probably due to the new gearbox attachment with damping system.
On return I went for a power recovery autorotation.
Nr ought to be at 104 % (always, flight, autorotation) and dropped a little bit, cause I was a little bit surprised by the idle set by Tim.
Nevertheless, just a little flare and the Nr came back and the autorotation was no problem.
In my eyes, the Bell 505 is quite useful for training.
In normal operations the uneventful autorotation capabilities sure arenˋt a bad idea.
Also the monitoring systems would help so nobody can over torque and so on, without the owner knowing,
Fuel usage seems to be around 110 litres / hrs, which is quite good for the power available.

Cons or my points I don´t like to much.
Seat - a really nice comfy seat for me (nearly 190cm tall) until Tim told me, that for the flight the seat has to be in the front position to guarantee the escape space for the rear passengers….
Thats back to the Bell 206 seat feeling for me - ok, may be a little bit better, but I think it would be a big step forward, if the seat could be used in the back position,
The glas cockpit, I´m spoiled by Helionix, is to crowded for me.
I.e. the wind indication, calculated from the GPS is given as an arrow with heading und speed in numbers.
In my view, thats to much information. Just an arrow with the indications like from the weather charts for speed works well and needs no reading.
Also in this direction is cancelling warnings - which is done with a button on the bottom of the right screen.
There is a lot of space available on the cyclic, where a warning cancelation button could be implemented, so that you don´t have to take your hand of the cyclic in case you get one.

Overall I´m more pleased than disappointed, even after reading this thread beforehand ;-)

Photo by Rene Köhler, who caught me on the controls ;-)

[Jelico]

Curious to hear from others that have flown the 505, how they find the feel of the cyclic? Is it light to move with the frictions off (like an R44, AS350, B206 etc) or does it feel stiffer?

[Flying Bull]

Curious to hear from others that have flown the 505, how they find the feel of the cyclic? Is it light to move with the frictions off (like an R44, AS350, B206 etc) or does it feel stiffer?

Well, didnˋt play with the friction. But the stick was easy to move but stayed where I put it, so hands off flying to grab things is easily possible.
Say, less sloppy like a 206 friction off.
Nice handling characteristics, as far as I can say from the few minutes hop

[Aesir]

Agile ... I can only assume you are not an owner / operator !!!! To us the looks are way way down the scale of importance !!! For me the economies rule every time . The 109 is more expensive to run ... but nowadays 9 out of ten charters or leases are for twins . That was not the case 10-15 years ago but steadily the single has been dropped by operators due to the lack of demand and now most aoc operators just use twins for charter.
I will post some photos when it arrives but I can honestly say it looks pretty cool in its dark blue and tan Seats ...!!

I would like to lease your 505. You have PM.

[Mick Cullen]

Curious to hear from others that have flown the 505, how they find the feel of the cyclic? Is it light to move with the frictions off (like an R44, AS350, B206 etc) or does it feel stiffer?

Much stiffer. I thought the frictions were still on but apparently that was the firm feel that it came with.

[Velocirotor]

How often does a turbine need to be started in the case of a helicopter not flying over several weeks? I have heard that it is compulsory to run the turbine at least every 3 weeks... Comments? Thank you

[Flying Bull]

How often does a turbine need to be started in the case of a helicopter not flying over several weeks? I have heard that it is compulsory to run the turbine at least every 3 weeks... Comments? Thank you

I ˋm not a technican, but the ones which arenˋt flown (for sale) and are not in the maintanance hangar - with Arrius Engines - get turned once a week....

[helipixman]

Some photos of Bell 505 G-IGGI firstly at the factory in Canada and then being unloaded in the UK... (Photos with thanks to owner Nigelh)

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/65126_c_gbrf_d710923196e1cca9392d46f226668473461f4b12.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/65126_g_iggia_65dfce9d0ab6157a04a0d6965ab8dd9b507d5d88.jpg

[SansAnhedral]

I'm especially not impressed with the location of the horizontal stab. Is Bell just copying the R-product? I suspect that at some point the 505 will "magically" grow a set like the 206 has, complete with endplates.

Oh, and anyone who thinks that the 505 won't spout winglets/endplates on the horizontal stab is just dreaming. Dreaming. Repeat after me: It. Will. Have. Them.

The 505 has the same tail boom and vertical fin as the 206. Mark my words...(hold a hand up with your index finger extended) MARK MY WORDS! The 505 will sprout winglets.

As I predicted, the horizontal stab did move. You just wait: Endplates/winglets are next.

The fact that the 505 does not yet have endplates on the horizontal stab is moot. It *will* get them, trust me on that. Seriously.

It is also true that I've said it will sprout endplates on the afterthought horizontal stab. I still think it eventually will, especially if people force it to cruise along at max power.

Nigel, you didn't get any endplates!

I think Bell has built over 100 505s like yours now. Maybe they aren't watering them enough? Perhaps BLR will offer them in an aftermarket kit replete with a bag of fertilizer!

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Wow. That must have took some effort.
do you feel better now?
wait until it gets endplates. You'll need to come back and edit your post

[krypton_john]

Adding end plates to the design now would be an expensive exercise. If it needed them they would have put them on before getting the TC.

[SansAnhedral]

Wow. That must have took some effort.
do you feel better now?
wait until it gets endplates. You'll need to come back and edit your post

It only takes effort if one doesn't know how to use the search function.

Anyway, the point remains - and our resident prophet has been wrong about the 505 in myriad more areas than endplates. There is still a matter of the hat snack after all...

Congratulations to Bell! Let's hope that U.S. certification follows shortly.

But if they actually produce and sell that thing I'll eat my hat.

[Mk 1]

There is still a matter of the hat snack after all...

Sans, should 1100 use seasoning before consuming? Also, is it a crime (like pizza) to use cutlery?

[bront]

Photos or it never happened!

[Bell_ringer]

It's the beginning of the end (plate) :}

[nigelh]

Personally I quite like the end plates and would be quite happy but not sure what they are needed for ... she was rock solid at all speeds and personally I didn’t have any yaw problems.
i think FH1100 also thought it wouldn’t have much power ( it is actually now load lifting at similar weights to the B2 I am told ) .... also it would only do 115-120 knots ( my friend is constantly sending me WhatsApp photos showing 128-130knots straight & level .
I think we all agree it is a great machine for the money
It is not beautiful but it does grow on people ( but not everyone naturally!)
It has some really daft tacky parts which I really don’t understand why Bell didn’t address ... such as door handles , open wires / weights etc at end of tail which looks like something must have fallen off !
It is lovely and easy to fly with great visibility and it hopefully will be cheap ( ish ) to run especially during its 1,000 hr warranty.
And it appears I’m not the only one because I believe it is selling very very well .....

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

is it selling well because of the price now?
what will it sell like when the price rises?

[nigelh]

The price has already risen about 10% over last year or so but it’s still incredibly cheap @ $1.3 approx . I think it would still be excellent value @ $1.5 pre extras . The old L4 would be very nearly $3.0 if it was still produced.

[krypton_john]

The price has already risen about 10% over last year or so but it’s still incredibly cheap @ $1.3 approx . I think it would still be excellent value @ $1.5 pre extras . The old L4 would be very nearly $3.0 if it was still produced.

It is still produced, isn't it?