MSR985 escorted into PIK

[ScotsSLF]

Two Typhoons from Leuchars have just escorted an Egyptair 777 (MSR985) into PIK after a security warning. Landed safely at 1425

[G-BHZO]

That might explain the number of flashing blue lights rushing down the M77 at around the same time...

[2dPilot]

BBC Report: BBC News - Cairo to New York plane diverted after 'problem' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22920907) Not much 'news'...

Edit.
Another report [Flight from Cairo to New York City grounded at Prestwick Airport | Scotland | News | STV (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/229521-flight-from-cairo-to-new-york-city-grouded-at-prestwick-airport/)] seems to show the plane parked away from airport buildings.

[Tankertrashnav]

They just had a live chat on Radio 4 with one of the pax - apparently they are all still being held on board

[Heathrow Harry]

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/220716-prestwick-59.html

says note left in onboard toilet saying "I will set this plane on fire"

should be easy to find the drunk responsible...............

[763 jock]

Unbelievable. :ugh:

[fireflybob]

Been discussed before but what is the logic of keeping pax on board with a "probability" of a device being on board?

As a Captain I would have felt very uncomfortable about this situation. Who carries the can if a device explodes and kills/injures pax?

[763 jock]

How many times has this type of message been found over the years? Never seen a reaction like this before.

[fireflybob]

How many times has this type of message been found over the years? Never seen a reaction like this before.

One wonders. As am sure you know each threat is assessed - in the case of an a/c going from Cairo to New York that might add a few extra points.

[crewmeal]

says note left in onboard toilet saying "I will set this plane on fire"

should be easy to find the drunk responsible...............

Egyptair is dry!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Bob, as 737 said, "unbelievable".

Leaving notes in the bog isn't really a credible threat is it? No reason not to keep pax on board if the threat isn't credible for whatever reason.

Over reaction? It's a sign of the times, isn't it - overreacting to a ridiculous level. Look at the charade of "security", crew threatened with confiscation of passes for wearing roadmender's vests undone, mandatory MORs for a go-around, treating a metal teaspoon as a threat to an aircraft's safety, assuming there is a "device" on board when a note in the bog suggests setting a fire - instead of thinking it's far more likely to be just be a box of matches, and then scrambling fighters. Do they carry air to air fire extinguishers, if not what's the point? I could go on. And on...;)

[off watch]

763Jock - twice in 2006 @ PIK, 1 Ryanair, 1 Northwest - both kept pax on board for some time.
fireflybob - Often wonder what would have happened if crew popped the chutes (it's their necks at risk too) & everyone bailed out & ran away !

[fireflybob]

Leaving notes in the bog isn't really a credible threat is it?

On it's own I agree but maybe others are party to extra information.

Over reaction? It's a sign of the times, isn't it - overreacting to a ridiculous level. Look at the charade of "security", crew threatened with confiscation of passes for wearing roadmender's vests undone, mandatory MORs for a go-around, treating a metal teaspoon as a threat to an aircraft's safety, assuming there is a "device" on board when a note in the bog suggests setting a fire - instead of thinking it's far more likely to be just be a box of matches, I could go on. And on...

With you all the way there, Agaricus bisporus!

fireflybob - Often wonder what would have happened if crew popped the chutes (it's their necks at risk too) & everyone bailed out & ran away !

off watch, my style also!

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

All roads around PIK closed for several hours. Hundreds of plods in X5 beemers etc.
Utter lunacy.

[fireflybob]

All roads around PIK closed for several hours. Hundreds of plods in X5 beemers etc.
Utter lunacy.

Probably worried about illegal immigrants when they deplane eventually.

Not to mention the teams of counsellors for the passengers.

One presumes that as this aircraft has been required to land en route this has been assessed as a Red Bomb warning?

[durry]

Roads were only closed while aircraft landed, opened again 10 minutes after landing. Dont know who reports all this rubbish

[jackharr]

twice in 2006 @ PIK, 1 Ryanair, 1 Northwest - both kept pax on board for some time. Obviously that's the policy but it needs to be explaned why the pax are put under so much extra stress.

As for popping the chutes, it seems the logical thing to do just in case the threat does turn out to be real and you need to get the pax off quickly.

BBC journo who found the note said in an interview that they had landed in "Ireland". So it's now Belfast Aldergrove, Belfast City and Belfast Prestwick :ugh:

[763 jock]

There is no way that people should be going down slides for this type of "threat". This ranks along with the simpletons who "have a bomb in their bag" when asked. Unless there was some other credible threat to this flight, this is another massive waste of time and money.

[ZeBedie]

If I ever find such a note, I think I'll quietly pop it in the bin.

[uffington sb]

ZeBedie, so would I.

[skyman01]

I love the way that aircraft which have been diverted to the UK's number 2 airport for security related matters are parked on R/W 03/21 just a few yards from Prestwick Centre, which controls around two thirds of the UK FIR plus half the North Atlantic, so that in the event of an explosion, the collateral damage takes out a major piece of European infrastructure. The risk is obviously considered sufficient for police to stop vehicular traffic on adjacent roads, but not enough to protect NATS employees and the UK's ATC operation.

[PIK3141]

Skyman.
There can't possibly be any risk of an explosion can there because they hold the pax and crew on the aircraft for hours after arrival ? Anyway the St Cuthberts Golfers, then the Marchburn houses and the Heathfield shopping centre are closer to take the blast. Flying debris will probably hit houses like mine in Prestwick, and one of these days, on one of these occasions, some poor sod in Prestwick main street, or motorist on the A77, will get killed by the blue light runs. But it must all be thought out mustn't it ?

[maxred]

Well the BBC gave it no1 priority on their news tonight. Not. Barely got a mention, and that mention at the end of the show. Odd, strange, or because they are Egyptians? Or that it might not fit in with the BBC political agenda.

Now had it been Syrian...

[mixture]

just a few yards from Prestwick Centre

A certain bit of journalistic license there skyman01 !

Having looked at it on Google Earth, there's a taxiway and some greenery.

There's more distance between 03/21 and ATC than there is between public roads and government buildings that are at arguably higher risk of actually ever seeing an explosion. In both instances, they've no doubt taken appropriate security countermeasures to protect personel onsite, and almost certainly have contingency site(s) elsewhere as part of their DR planning to ensure continuity of service.

[StainesFS]

Earlier reports on the BBC News website quoted their colleague on the flight, Ms Tawfik, as saying that she had found the note in the toilet three hours into the flight. This detail is not repeated in the latest version of the report on the BBC. Whether this change is significant and the earlier report was incorrect I do not know. Other media (The Independent website for instance) are still reporting this detail about the timing of the discovery.

For the sake of argument, let us assume that the original quote was true. This would have placed the aircraft (according to the usual flight tracking sites) over or just north of the Czech Republic. Without wanting anyone to reveal sensitive information, I would like to hear from those with knowledge of the relevant procedures on why there was a delay between the discovery and the squawking of 7700 more than an hour later as the aircraft flew over the North Sea. I should say that I am not from the media as a check of my previous posts should show.

In short, would you have expected the emergency to have been declared earlier? Sufficiently earlier, perhaps, for the UK authorities not to have to become involved?

[WHBM]

If the issue arose overhead Central Europe, and they were diverted all the way to Prestwick and then all held on board, would it not have been more expedient to have turned overhead Germany and gone back to Cairo, where they would presumably have been treated with a lot more common sense than appears to have been the case - and got off the plane quicker as well.

[parabellum]

If I ever find such a note, I think I'll quietly pop it in the bin.


Possibly but not such a good idea if the perpetrator does it again in mid Atlantic and then follows through.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I love the way that aircraft which have been diverted to the UK's number 2 airport for security related matters are parked on R/W 03/21 just a few yards from Prestwick Centre, which controls around two thirds of the UK FIR plus half the North Atlantic, so that in the event of an explosion, the collateral damage takes out a major piece of European infrastructure. The risk is obviously considered sufficient for police to stop vehicular traffic on adjacent roads, but not enough to protect NATS employees and the UK's ATC operation.

Back to the gross over-reaction situation!
There was a barely credible threat of a fire, not warning of a 1000lb bomb on board. How does an explosion possibly come out of that?

As for tossing debris into Prestwick village, wassup, have we gone nuclear or something?

:ugh:

[ZeBedie]

Re. finding the note and quietly disposing of it:

Possibly but not such a good idea if the perpetrator does it again in mid Atlantic and then follows through.

If there was a serious intent to attack the aircraft, why would you pre-warn your targets?

I honestly don't believe that any of of these toilet threats have ever been associated with a genuine threat.

[ex-XL-in-exile]

The Scottish authorities could be forgiven for being twitchy about airport security after the Glasgow Airport bombing.

[DX Wombat]

just a few yards from Prestwick Centre, which controls around two thirds of the UK FIR plus half the North Atlantic, so that in the event of an explosion, the collateral damage takes out a major piece of European infrastructure. Do you really think the building would have been constructed without provision for such a scenario? Before you ask, no, I don't have detailed knowledge, it's just common sense.

but not enough to protect NATS employees and the UK's ATC operation.
See previous comment. Nobody is going to fail to protect such a valuable asset to the community.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Do you really think the building would have been constructed without provision for such a scenario? Before you ask, no, I don't have detailed knowledge, it's just common sense.>>

I sincerely hope that steps are now taken to provide greater security. At an establishment where I worked, which housed considerably more than the building referred to, the windows of the control rooms opened on to a public road about 40 feet away. When there was a major altercation at a place nearby the powers that be put heavy curtains on the windows as protection. At another place I worked the foyer was enclosed by glass doors and windows with a single security man present during night hours. Thankfully both buildings have now been demolished.

[smith]

Prestwick St Cuthbert golf club, wich adjoins 21/03, was cleared when the plane landed and it was right in the middle of a club championship qualifying competition as well so it must have been serious :)

As someone said, none of these post it notes on a bathroom mirror has ever amounted to anything but it only takes one. I for one would have landed at the first opportunity it oils be company policy anyway.

[barry lloyd]

According to Sky News, five of the passengers are now seeking asylum:

Diverted 'Fire Threat' Flight: Five Claim Asylum (http://news.sky.com/story/1104419/diverted-fire-threat-flight-five-claim-asylum)

[Airclues]

At least it makes it easier to work out who wrote the note!

[Blank-EFIS]

For those who would "just quietly pop it in the bin" ,I hope none of you are ever on any of my flights!
ALL THREATS must be assessed by the operating crew and dealt with accordingly !
We are all aware how accurate the British press can be in these circumstances and I wouldn't be surprised if there is more to this story than is currently reported.
Now put yourself in the situation,
Found note in toilet on transatlantic flight,
"Popped note in bin"
2 hours later while over the Atlantic , toilet smoke alarm goes off,
Feeling stupid yet ?

[WHBM]

For those who would "just quietly pop it in the bin" ,I hope none of you are ever on any of my flights!
ALL THREATS must be assessed by the operating crew and dealt with accordingly !
What assessment ? The current standard appears to be to assume panic stations for everyone, regardless.

If we are really doing an assessment, when was the last time any actual aviation incident was found to have been preceded by a "note" ? Compared to this, how many "notes" have there been in the last say 10 years which were just nonsenses.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Seat 46D wonder if they checked who was sitting there. Also find it strange that they would ask for Asylum in a criminal fashion in the UK when they already had US visas and were on their way to the USA legitimately and could have asked for asylum there. Either way correct thing done in this day and age. No idea what kind of nuts out there.

[Agaricus bisporus]

No doubt the UK authorities were firmly at panic stations (evacuating a golf course - that's just hilarious!) but no one seemed unduly concerned on board if they blithely flew 2 hrs from Czechoslovakia to Scotland and passing over Stansted en route - plus no doubt several other similarly designated airfields in Europe.
It doesn't exactly sound like a high-level threat does it?
Which makes the golf -course business seem even more idiotic, but I suppose the police have to find something theatrically dramatic to do instead of just standing around in crowds like spare parts.

[LiveryMan]

The Scottish authorities could be forgiven for being twitchy about airport security after the Glasgow Airport bombing. Don't forget PanAm 103! :sad:

I have serious worries that these numpties will actually be granted asylum, despite carrying out an act of terror to get here in the first place :mad:.

[JW411]

I seem to remember that the Afghan hi-jackers who took over the Ariana 727 and landed at Stansted some years ago ended up being granted asylum by some idiot judge.

[10W]

Agaricus Bisporus

from Czechoslovakia to Scotland and passing over Stansted en route


https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/999534_566486163392515_911656183_n.jpg

Interesting nav system you have on your aircraft if you think it overflew Stansted on its route (Great Circle in blue, actual route in green). Don't work for Ryanair do you ? :}

[BOAC]

Not quite sure what you are saying, 10W, but if it overflew Prague'ish then I would agree a route near STN to MAN and out through Ireland might seem a better NAT track than wiggling around via PWK - otherwise that is a pretty northerly track for JFK? The only things I can see preferring PWK would be time to make the decision and capacity at STN.

It does seem odd. I would also have voted for an RTB and sling them in an Egyptian jail.:)

[10W]

Hi BOAC

Hope you are well :ok:

I would agree a route near STN to MAN and out through Ireland might seem a better NAT track than wiggling around via PWK -

Then you'd be hours behind everyone else due to the head winds which were sitting mid Atlantic, and you'd be on a random route and not a track :8

otherwise that is a pretty northerly track for JFK?

The Westbound tracks have been pretty Northerly for the last week or so, and the MSR was one of many many aircraft from the Eastern Med/Middle East coming up that way for Eastern seaboard destinations. Mid West and Western seaboard aircraft were even further North. It's not common, but it's certainly nothing new.

The only things I can see preferring PWK would be time to make the decision and capacity at STN.

And without going in to too much detail, most of which is not public domain, PIK was about 45 minutes flying time closer to the aircraft than Stansted when the alert was triggered with ATC. Any ATC.

Bearing in mind that the BBC journo who reported the event thought they had landed in Ireland, :sad: , I wouldn't trust them to find their own a*se even if they had a GPS and large flag pinned there saying 'This is your a*se'. So were they over the Czech Republic when it was found ? Who knows !!

I guess what I am saying in a round about way is that people who often throw in conjecture or comment, don't actually have the full facts and can jump to totally wrong conclusions. Like the aircraft having flown over Stansted ;)

[Planemike]

If I ever find such a note, I think I'll quietly pop it in the bin.

Should definitely have been flushed down the toilet: would have saved a load of time wasting.

[BOAC]

Ta 10W - case closed!

[Agaricus bisporus]

10W, while we must clearly all bow to your superior knowledge I'd suggest that the route you've drawn is hardly one that would be chosen intuitively and as Stansted is clearly much much closer to the direct track I can't see your point.
Thank you for your advice on my nav system, although it seems to have been perfectly well tuned in this case.

It seems rather sad that you have to flaunt your specific knowledge of an aircrafts route to belittle those mere mortals who aren't so privileged and merely use their gumption in a discussion.

have a nice day.

[10W]

Agaricus

Just trying to point out that your assertion that 'no one seemed unduly concerned on board if they blithely flew 2 hrs from Czechoslovakia to Scotland and passing over Stansted en route' wasn't what actually happened. You were jumping to an incorrect conclusion which I am trying to correct, as far as I can, bearing in mind the sensitivity in much of what occurred and is not in the public domain.

The map is the actual aircraft track taken from a freely available public flight tracking application. Anyone wanting to make points on this thread could access it and use that when making their arguments. It should also dispel any myths and incorrect theories being posted.

It's clear you have a bee in your bonnet about the decisions taken by the UK Security services. That's your right. All I would say is that your angst is misplaced. You know nothing of what actually occurred out of the public eye, of the information passed between various agencies, of the threat assessments carried out, and why the final decisions were made by those with the authority to do so. Whether you think they over reacted or not is a moot point. At the end of the day, it wasn't your butt on the line and you weren't the one having to make the judgement calls based on the information which had been received. Nor were you in a position to have very public egg on your face if you got it wrong.

When you are personally flying as Captain, you can chose not to advise anyone on the ground if you receive a threat message if you wish. That's your call and you will, I am sure, be able to live with that decision and answer any critics if things go wrong. That's what comes with the responsibility of command.

Safe flying to you.

[maxred]

Posts in this thread have been removed.

Either that or my gin intake is getting to epidemic proportions, and I really must cut down:cool:

[Agaricus bisporus]

10W, thank you so much for your valued advice.

I'm so, so contrite that I didn't access a "freely available" thing that you know all about but I don't, silly me for mot being as smart as you, and as I explained it was also inexcusably silly of me to imagine that they would have flown a direct track and not half way to russia en route, bit then most of us know that when no facts are known what is written must necessarily be based on speculation. As I said, that speculation was spot-on accurate for a logical track, but if it offends you I frankly dont give a toss.

Please don't presume, from your position of such superiority, to deduce my attitude to the "security services" of which you know nothing whatsoever, I think it is you that has the bee in the bonnet tonight actually.

I find your very personal attack unseemly and unpleasant, I've said nothing here that speculates more or less than anyone else, yourself excluded of course. I think we've all got the message that you're in a privileged position with far more knowledge than anyone else on this matter and I'm sure we're all suitably impressed.

let it go, will you Its getting boring.

[maxred]

Whatever happened to free speech and a bit of idle banter:(

The "facts" surrounding this whole episode are odd. The track is odd, the response is odd, the Typhoon intro is odd, and PIK as a destination is odd.

It would be nothing to do with a bit of publicity, a co- incidence that a warlord event is happening in NI, would it?

It just happens to be a Syrian family, allegedly requesting PS, in a lets keep them all frightened and on alert, atmosphere? bit of a political agenda no?

And of the reaction of some on this forum, it would appear that, the suits, say no:O

Very disappointing.

[10W]

AB

You are an airframe driver according to your profile. Weather patterns, great circle routes, and airspace constraints and restrictions should be part and parcel of your flying life. With that knowledge you have, you will probably know more than most how actual flight paths over the ground might not go where an ordinary person might think they do. You can use that knowledge to give an educated guess of what the likely scenarios may have been and offer up credible arguments. Feel free.

But enough pig wrestling on both our parts. There should be at least a little more information out there for people to base their debates on.

[mixture]

The "facts" surrounding this whole episode are odd. The track is odd, the response is odd, the Typhoon intro is odd, and PIK as a destination is odd.

It would be nothing to do with a bit of publicity, a co- incidence that a warlord event is happening in NI, would it?

It just happens to be a Syrian family, allegedly requesting PS, in a lets keep them all frightened and on alert, atmosphere? bit of a political agenda no?



Oh... and just before you don your tin foil hat maxred, don't forget.....

The note was discovered by a BBC Journalist.

[maxred]

The note was discovered by a BBC Journalist.

Sorry, I thought that was just a co-incidence:\

[parabellum]

Well said 10W, I found your explanation perfectly reasonable being accurate, informative and in no way was it a 'personal attack' or presented in 'a superior manner'! Have flown the Atlantic many times and even when taking off from either Amsterdam or Frankfurt have found myself up over Scotland more than once, due jet streams.

[jolihokistix]

Quote: "Posts in this thread have been removed. Either that or my gin intake is getting to epidemic proportions, and I really must cut down"

They have, so your gin is safe. :ok:

[IThink]

Don't worry 10W, you were temporarily under the assumption that this was a professional network! :):):)

[Hotel Tango]

I think 10W should also be congratulated on his commendable restraint in his answers to Ab. Had it been left to me I would probably have been banned!

[WHBM]

What the chart does show is that not only was overhead Czech Republic a long way from when they decided to divert, but they appear to have been closer to Bergen, Norway's 3,000 m runway when the diversion to Prestwick started, taking in a scenic tour of Scotland on the way.

[10W]

There is no evidence that the message was found over the Czech Republic. This information came from the BBC journalist, who coincidentally broke the story. This information has also disappeared from the BBC website. Maybe it was wrong in the first place ? :}

Don't be fooled that the aircraft started its diversion where the map shows a slight left turn over the North Sea. This is a turn at a waypoint on the flight plan route, as was expected since the flight was operating normally at that time. This was also well before the problem was notified. Indeed, the aircraft continues on flight plan route all the way until overhead Scotland when the turn South is observed. This is the point at which the decision has been made to divert to Prestwick. It would be reasonable to assume that the time between the security situation being declared and the diversion to Prestwick, with Typhoons in tow, would not have been a very lengthy process.

[BOAC]

It is worth remembering that the time the message was found and the time ATC were advised may well be separated by a significant time. It may well have been 'over the Czech republic' at the time, but who knows what conversations may have been held with company and cockpit decisions made?

[fireflybob]

So reports say five people have applied for asylum but has anyone been charged so far?

I am somewhat askance as to what some posters have said about their actions if they discovered a note in flight. Surely all threats should be taken seriously. That does not necessarily mean that it would constitute a red alert requiring the aircraft to land but surely such a note should be reported to the relevant authorities and kept as evidence.

Often terrorist groups will do a trial run to see whether any action is taken so they can use a later opportunity in similar circumstances.

[YRP]

mixture wrote:

Oh... and just before you don your tin foil hat maxred, don't forget.....

The note was discovered by a BBC Journalist.


Tin foil hats? When will people ever learn...

http://jma.tamu.edu/Classes/MethodsIntro/handouts/Helmet%20Experiment.pdf

I also second the opinion that 10W has provided very useful information in a suitably calm manner. While not having bothered to dig it out myself, the Flight Aware track is very useful in picturing the situation.

[10W]

BOAC

You make a fair point. I guess the Scottish Police will have that information, gleaned from their interviews with all on board.

[uffington sb]

Fireflybob.

Any threat would initiate a Red Alert and subsequent interception etc.
Do you really think that say, a person would go to all the trouble of obtaining the materials, constructing a device, being careful not to leave any evidence, DNA, credit card details of course. Smuggle it onto an aircraft, then scrawl a message in an in- flight magazine that may or may not be read on that particular page, claiming there's a device on board.
There's probably loads of such messages flying around in magazines at this very moment, and if I found one, I'd destroy it ( and not by setting fire to it).

[willl05]

... after the captain was made aware of the note and before the diversion, I do not understand the decision-making process.

Either the note is taken seriously, then land at the nearest suitable airport. Why wait for a fire alarm? Or wait for people on the ground, whose lives are not at stake, to make the decision? It might be too late then.

Or the note is not taken seriously, then just go on to your destination.

What is the logic here? "Oh, we have been flying for a while since we saw that note and there is no fire, now let's divert."

[JW411]

I would like to congratulate 10W for his infinite patience in trying to explain to the great unwashed and some others that I had previously considered to be professional as to why the Nat Tracks were so far north that day.

Those who have no Atlantic experience should think twice about commenting.

I always made a point of explaining to the punters in the back exactly why we were over the Ice Cap on the way from London to Los Angeles (or New York if the winds were really bad).

P.S. Does anyone else remember the weather ships?

[lomapaseo]

after the captain was made aware of the note and before the diversion, I do not understand the decision-making process.

Either the note is taken seriously, then land at the nearest suitable airport. Why wait for a fire alarm? Or wait for people on the ground, whose lives are not at stake, to make the decision? It might be too late then.

Or the note is not taken seriously, then just go on to your destination.

What is the logic here? "Oh, we have been flying for a while since we saw that note and there is no fire, now let's divert."

I don't believe this is covered in the SOPs

Decision making when your aircraft is running at near perfection is not made on the spur of the moment.

Information must be collected and weighed against what ifs.

Folks who don't have to make this kind of decision never seem to grasp this.

[parabellum]

Whether it came into the crews decision making process or not I don't know, but the aircraft diverted at almost the last opportunity it had of making a safe emergency descent and landing before heading out over the Atlantic where options are minimal.

[wiggy]

Decision making when your aircraft is running at near perfection is not made on the spur of the moment.

Information must be collected and weighed against what ifs.

Folks who don't have to make this kind of decision never seem to grasp this.

+1 from me,


Have the Monday morning quarterbacks considered that multiple individuals may have weighed the information and come to an agreement as to the least risky course of action and then made a rational and considered decision to divert to Prestwick?

This thread is an example of Pprune at it's worse, we don't have access to all the information that was available to the crew or the authorities and we never will, so speculation is simply pointless and criticism of the crew's course of action is ill judged.

[WHBM]

.....the aircraft diverted at almost the last opportunity it had of making a safe emergency descent and landing before heading out over the Atlantic where options are minimal.
Oh come on. On the track they were taking they were passing within close range of Bergen, Keflavik, Goose Bay - there's only a small piece of even ETOPS 60 minutes needed on this route.

[Eric T Cartman]

Spot on Wiggy - well said ! :ok:

[mixture]

This thread is an example of PPRuNe at it's worse, we don't have access to all the information

Actually, on the positive side, at least nobody posted the traditional irrelevant METAR and TAF output from the time of the incident. :E

[parabellum]

Oh come on. On the track they were taking they were passing
within close range of Bergen, Keflavik, Goose Bay - there's only a small piece
of even ETOPS 60 minutes needed on this route.


WHBM - I would remind you of the Swissair MD11 off the coast of Nova Scotia in 1998, Flight SR111 which is just one example that illustrates the point that when an aircraft is on fire you only have minutes to get down from altitude, configured and land before it is too late, to be successful you have to be within twenty or thirty miles, possibly fifty tops, of where you land. ETOPS of sixty minutes would be about fifty minutes too long.

Next time you are in the SIM ask the instructor to give you the exercise of a fire in the cabin at FL350.

[BOAC]

the exercise of a fire in the cabin at FL350 - worth pointing out that as far as we know there was no 'fire' and this was a decision taken at some point to exercise a precautionary diversion? Let's not over-dramatise the event.

[parabellum]

What are you talking about BOAC?:confused: There was a threat to set fire to the aircraft, where, when or how has not yet been determined, no question of over dramatization, I made the point that they diverted before heading out over the Atlantic where their options would be severely limited and WHBM scoffed at this, so I gave an example where 229 people died and illustrates the need to get down, configured and landed in very short order, somewhere close at hand. The simulator exercise, with smoke in the SIM, brings this home all too quickly, you should try it.

[BOAC]

What are you talking about BOAC?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif - I am 'talking' about the fact that the 'threat' could well have been discovered many hours earlier than the diversion, and that most of us would not just throw the aircraft on the ground in haste at the 'nearest suitable' thinking of Swissair but would take the usual approach to such threats, which I'm sure you are aware of. Why was Prestwick selected, do you think and not Vienna/Frankfurt/Amsterdam/Hamburg/Copenhagen etc etc?? Why no evacuation? Do you know for sure it was an "emergency descent"?

There have been many such 'messages', from pranksters through to disgruntled c/crew, and I do not know of any that have been 'real' - though of course there may have been some. There are well-established procedures for handling such. Yes, it would probably been unwise to continue en-route, but that decision would have been taken in a measured way and not, I think, in a panic.you should try it- actually I have, several times.

[parabellum]

We are at cross purposes BOAC, you are talking about what actually happened and I am talking about valid reasons not to proceed over the Atlantic in the event that the threat to set fire to the aircraft was carried out, particularly I was rebutting WHBM's idea that it would be safe to continue regardless as, according to WHBM, the aircraft would be able to reach a safe landing even if on fire.

Never intended to suggest an emergency descent based on just the threat, never entered the speculation about where or when the threat was received.


that decision would have been taken in a measured way and not, I think, in a
panic.


Another area of speculation I never entered and I never mentioned 'panic' either, everything I said was related to the possibility of an actual cabin fire in progress, I repeat, nothing I wrote was intended to be comment on what actually happened, I simply pointed out that they had chosen to divert prior to heading out over the Atlantic where their options would have been greatly reduced.

[maxred]

Any update on this? It all went very quite, very quickly or perhaps I missed something.

Basically what happened to the plane, what happened to the alleged 5 asylum seekers, and did all end well?:zzz: