Indonesia p2F for low timer is back!!!!

[aircupidon]

It seems like the 250h requirement has been uplifted!
Heard that a batch of low timers arrive couple week to start line training.
:ok:

[captjns]

Multi Engine Turbine Sea Plane required for employment?:}

[squarecrow]

that's during Line training Capt.

[Boeing Europe]

Hahaah @JNS sometimes I wish PPRUNE had a "like" button

[captjns]

Yeah... but does the cost include the Multi Engine Turbine Sea Plane Type Rating?:}

If not perhaps Mommy and Daddy may reconsider spending that kind of money for their children so they can fly a real plane instead of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

[eaglesnest1972]

Is it true folks?
Where did you get that?

[TheExpatPilot]

Uh oh, just when you thought things couldn't get worse. More sob stories, ego's and Ray Ban's. :}

[captjns]

Don't forget the watches that need a crane to lift:D.

Uh oh, just when you thought things couldn't get worse.

Who knows maybe Mommy and Daddy will have had enough and put their foot down.:=

Le the rug rats find their own way into the world like the rest of us had to.:ok:

[VanDriver01]

is this true? if so when did it happen?

[jetjockey696]

Dont bother with Indonesia... the next place for P2F ego's, lay ban's and big watches to match inferior manhoods oops flying is Sri Lanka.. on the a320 for cheap price between 60-75K EURO... depending on your poison.,,:}

Even the Maldives is now a p2F haven... :}

See you there..:}:ok:

[aircupidon]

All the pilots that are still coming to do their line training are all going to Citilink on the A320 thru avia Integrated.
Last week, citilink itself had an open day for pilots (local and Foreigners)
Many people attended and 20 were selected, all with zero hours.
Indonesian needs a lot of pilots and everybody knows that this 250h rules is just a bluff.

[captjns]

Many people attended and 20 were selected, all with zero hours.

To be precise... those children who had mommies and daddies who eligible for the fleecing were chosen.

[eaglesnest1972]

Guys are you serious?
Its at least 6 months that i send my cv to freaking citilink as rated pilot and now you tell me they started again to enroll kids that pay to fly...

Oh jeez...is there a chance to find a single aviation professional in that joke of a country???

[sierra910]

Well, it was only a matter of time before the rule was lifted. It never made sense in the first place, not with the demand Indonesia has.

[sovereign680]

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, now they want the monkeys to bring their own peanuts. And they will come and make the news.

[captjns]

The monkeys are bringing their mommy's and daddy's peanuts.:*

[aviatorzuckeberg]

Guys from what i heard indonesia still has the 250 hour rule for type rated pilots..............i am a type rated pilot but unable to get thru indonesian's new rule barrier.....what is the latest from indonesia??? Guys plzz no abusive language...only productive replies plzzz..thanks....

[pilotchute]

The rule was introduced to stop one particular airline sourcing pilots on a P2F scheme. The other hurdle in place now is if you are a foreigner, to get a licence validation in Indonesia. To achieve this you have to have an interview with the Head of Flight Crew Licencing who must deem you to be of "good character".

There are a other few things that will have your application (or interview) stopped in its tracks now.

1. Having a licence issued in the Philippines.
2. Having an Indian passport.
3. Not having 250 hours on type.

If you already work for another company in Indonesia flying whatever, the 250 hour ruled seems to be negotiable. If you aren't already flying here see points 1,2 and 3.

[A340rider]

Hows this good news ?? Whats the bad news.. Pilot shortage over?

[FactCheck_Indonesia]

I am one of the pilots whose presence in Jakarta led to this thread being started. I have been watching it with amusement for the last few days, but decided to step in at this point because some of the claims being made are ridiculous.

The 250 hour rule is still alive and well, and that fact does not look likely to change anytime soon.

My colleagues and I were recruited - and more importantly, had submitted our paperwork - before the new rule was announced. Because of this, we were granted a one-time exception. We're the last zero-hour foreigners to start flying in Indonesia, at least for the foreseeable future.

The Citilink "Open Day" described above was Parc/Rishworth pilots who've been pushed out of Mandala heading to Citilink en masse asking if they could have a job there. They all had hours. I don't know if Citilink hired any of them, but I am led to believe the answer to that one is "no".

[eaglesnest1972]

Fatcheck

How did you get there?
Normal application through normal channels or got there through brokers like Avia or someone else?

are you a supergreen guy?

[prefly]

You can't apply direct to citilink as they won't reply to you . All the zero hour guys were hired via flygosh avia in ams

[captjns]

The most important part of the application process is presenting mommy and daddy's bank account details:}

[FactCheck_Indonesia]

"The most important part of the application process is presenting mommy and daddy's bank account detailshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif"

Oh, grow up.

Firstly, it was a multi-day, multi-tier assessment to get in (tests, interviews, sim).

Secondly, this may come as a shock to you, but I spent over three-and-a-half years working and saving money while I was looking for a flying job somewhere. In this market, there simply aren't any to be had if you don't have the hours. So I took the proceeds of nearly four years of 9-to-5 drudgery to do what I felt I had to do to ever get anywhere in aviation.

It's a good investment. We're getting paid from Day 1, with the normal salary anyone in the company would get. We have a full one-year contract, with a further one-year extension option. My investment is going to pay for itself within 9 months, and that's just in simple financial terms. That's not even counting the fact that I can finally begin some semblance of a career.

I don't like P2F either, but if you have a better suggestion of where to find a job in this market, then I would love to hear it. All the usual step-stone jobs are blocked by people who have been in them for years waiting for someone higher up the food chain to retire.

There simply aren't any opportunities out there for low timers. I did what I had to do, and I worked hard for it. Don't you dare judge me.

[aerokin]

Well said factcheck. It's so hard to find a genuine line training program nowadays and most don't even pay a single cent of salary during the the whole 500 hour process.

Hope you can update us if your airline is hiring again.

[pilotchute]

I have been informed now that the 250 rule can be got around if,

You already have a Indonesian licence and you have hours flying here for a commercial operator (just going to a local flying school and getting the licence doesn't work).

You have more than 1500 hours and have credits for all ATPL theory subjects for your home country licence.

You haven't signed a non competition agreement with you current employer.

Good luck.

[aerokin]

That is correct pilotchute and I just got the confirmation from Flygosh avvia that the 250 on type rule is still in effect and their last recruitment was late last year in Amsterdam.

Really hope that they will uplift the rule:ugh:

[koji188]

The most important part of the application process is presenting mommy and daddy's bank account details

I've noticed most of your post around Pprune. Tbh i think you're such a bitter and childish person.

To be precise... those children who had mommies and daddies who eligible for the fleecing were chosen
The monkeys are bringing their mommy's and daddy's peanuts.
Rise of unemployed CPLs in India? You bet. Not because airlines are laying off, but flight schools are preying on children. Parents of these spoiled little brats pull on the shirt tails of Mommy and Daddy... "I wanna be an airline pilot".
If not perhaps Mommy and Daddy may reconsider spending that kind of money for their children so they can fly a real plane instead of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

As fastcheck mentioned earlier, not everyone uses "mommy and daddy" to be able to fly. A lot are working adults that has other jobs while waiting for a good opportunity to get into an airline. I did the same too, and fortunately for me the wait paid out and I got to fly. I myself had to fork up my hard earn savings to pay half of the rating and the other half sponsored by the company.

I've seen your posts across pprune a lot of times and i think its just bitter and childish to say such things. If there's nothing nice or helpful to contribute to this forum, don't bother typing on that keyboard at all.

[Danvv]

I meet the requirement.
Which airline is hiring on the 737 then?

[captjns]

Not bitter at all Koji188. I resent any individual who pays his or her way into the seat of a jet. theny did not earn the position they shorted the system. Take a poll of the pilots who worked their way up the ladder. I'll bet they have no respect for the P2Fers either.

I've posted detailing option of how to build hour legitimately, instructing, missionary work, airline cadet program. All it take is old fashion honest work. It will take longer than forking over $50,000 to get 500 hours of time, but the self respect factor is far greaterand rewarding.

[TheExpatPilot]

FactCheck_Indonesia, a warm welcome to the aviation industry for you. Now, for some Facts_RealWorld...

In this market, there simply aren't any to be had if you don't have the hours.

Really? Ok, so would you be willing to relocate to the back parts of Africa to get your first start? There is always a way no matter how hard it gets or how many responsibilities your have back home. You need to realise that this industry, like others, goes through peaks and troughs. Patience and persistence is essential if you're going to succeed here. Big sacrifices need to be made.

So I took the proceeds of nearly four years of 9-to-5 drudgery to do what I felt I had to do to ever get anywhere in aviation.

That's fantastic and great to see, but join the club. Try living in a shipping container in the desert starting off flying 1 hour a week working 2 or 3 other jobs to survive, or digging trenches on a working farm to only fly a handful of hours around the property per week. These situations are not unique. It took a lot of people I know 4+ years to get their first start on anything after flying school.

I don't like P2F either
All the usual step-stone jobs are blocked by people who have been in them for years waiting for someone higher up the food chain to retire.

You're missing the point. There is a tried and tested pathway in aviation that has worked for decades. Experienced pilots moving up the chain onto more complicated and high performance aircraft they can handle. By following the path you have chosen, you're not only leap frogging the system, but you're helping create a culture that is detrimental to our industry by compromising experience in the cockpit of sophisticated aircraft for personal gain. (And on a side note, not to mention peeved a lot of people off in the process that have worked much harder than you). The bigger picture MUST prevail. The fact you're getting paid helps your cause somewhat. If you were P2F AND working for free you would be helping to destroy world wide pilot terms and conditions, again for personal gain. However that's another can of worms.

There simply aren't any opportunities out there for low timers. I did what I had to do, and I worked hard for it. Don't you dare judge me.

Unfortunately some things aren't worth the risk, short term gain without looking at the bigger picture. You will be judged for taking this path. As a VERY small-worlded industry, be prepared to get used to it.

Happy landings everyone and keep safe!

[TheBigD]

CaptnJNS, ExpatPilot.:ok::ok:
Thank you for being the voices of reason and explaining how P2F messes up the natural order in terms of pilot progression!!
But unfortunately, you are wasting your breath. I mean how dare you "judge them"............

[peepsmover1]

What is it with all of this angst? How is P2F any different than abinitio training of Lufthansa, etc? The logic that one must pay his dues by slogging through the series of jobs, instructing, charter, cargo, piston, turboprop, etc, etc is clearly overstated. How is it that with only 200 hours of initial flight training that USAF fighter pilots are at the controls of the F-22 and A-10, or transport pilots flying the C-17, all flawlessly carrying out complex flight operations? Equally, you have these abinitio newbies that are jerking the gear on large jet transports and passing their check-rides and flying safely. Where is this wave of mishaps? Exactly, more rhetoric than reality. Truth be told, whether in military or civilian aviation low time pilots, are carrying out the most demanding flights safely.

Ultimately, there are a variety of ways to get into the big leagues and fly the big iron. Asian carriers do not have enough locals to feed their growth plans so they offer up these enticing opportunities. If Indonesia's 250 hr rule in type is now the norm, then that once good deal has evaporated. The Asian carriers rules reflect the dynamics of their growth. In order for non-Asians to move out there they offered zero hour opportunities. Of course the P2F scheme helped the middle men and it ensured their new hires stayed on long enough to pay off their training. As pilots we all have different needs and desires. Now with the revised rule, only a narrow pool of pilots are going to be able to get those jobs. I for one am out of that running.

Do I begrudge those who have done the P2F? No, why should I? They were in the right place at the right time and they had the funds, so what? Is it their fault they saved money or that Mummy paid for it? Get over it. There was no line to jump over, the airline made the offer and those who could accepted. Nevertheless, the pilots still had to qualify, so they got through training and are line qualified, good on them. Not every carrier offers P2F why is that? Because not many pilots have that kind of money to tap into and the big league carriers have enough competition to pick from.

The traditional model of gaining the right seat of a major carrier has always been challenged. Military pilots do not leave the service with a lot of flight time, yet they are valued candidates. Equally, P2F has been in some fashion around for awhile, so deal with it. Squawking about something you cannot change is a waste of both your emotional and mental energy.

Welcome to the vagaries of aviation: illogical actions, unfairness, furloughs, and crappy contracts. If you don't learn to deal with it now, you'll just become a bitter wannabe on PPRune. So suck it up, Buttercups and let's bring value added to the discussion, rather than some pathetic, "My porridge is too hot," or "Johnny' s Mummy has more money than my Daddy." Cheers. ;):cool:

[flyboy_nz]

peepsmover1, you Sir, are the very reason that civil pilots have no respect these days.

How is it that with only 200 hours of initial flight training that USAF fighter pilots are at the controls of the F-22 and A-10, or transport pilots flying the C-17, all flawlessly carrying out complex flight operations?

Last time I checked, you don't pay $50k to get into the USAF to fly those machines. Do you know how many people fail or get washed out before even starting BFM training?

The P2f system is unfair on everyone. If the P2f program did not exist, everyone would have a fair chance at applying for an airline. In this way, the not so good would actually fail the assessment. And let's not talk about the assessment MSD/Rishworth/Avia does. That's just a show and mockery of the entire industry. You could get a monkey to pass through that assessment provided his/her wallet was fat enough or had enough bananas. Look at places like Australia and NZ, the p2f would hugely and only benefit the Airline but at the expense of damaging an entire industry. But, it's seen as being unfair and unethical to pay for a job. The entire process of hiring people by fair means goes out the window.

enticing opportunities

Very enticing opportunity to dry your wallet or your's Daddys! Sitting in the right hand seat of a 737 and paying 50k just to operate the radio and serve coffee. Tell me this, if the P2f scheme tomorrow says you have to perform Fellaciao after paying the 50k to get the job, would you do it? I bet you would. Because it's a small requirement in regards to the big picture and that's how the industry is shaping out to be. Better do it first than before be in the back of the line right? Have some pride my friend in yourself and your flying skills.

Equally, P2F has been in some fashion around for awhile, so deal with it. Squawking about something you cannot change is a waste of both your emotional and mental energy.

No, it wouldn't change the system but I will walk with pride that I did not sell my soul by buying my dreams and crushing several others because I happen to have the required amount. I will go through the system and beating the competition fair and square. Guys like you are gonna be another notch in my belt when I retire and say, yeah they were those that paid, but I didn't have to ;)

So suck it up, Buttercups and let's bring value added to the discussion, rather than some pathetic, "My porridge is too hot," or "Johnny' s Mummy has more money than my Daddy." Cheers

After you my good Sir!

[peepsmover1]

NZ Buttercup,

The issue about the USAF was to point out that that low-time pilots can fly complex operations, who cares how many wash out---the government pays the tab you, twit.

Not every carrier in the world operates a P2F model, for obvious reasons, because it will not survive the competition. Your idiotic slippery slope logic makes about as much sense as herding sheep with sandals--I hear you Kiwis prefer boots with enough room for the hooves of your woolly dates. So unloosen your wadded up knickers, wind the clock, and recognize it for what it is.

To hold that P2F is unfair for everyone illuminates your pathetic small mind of entitlement. Nobody owes you anything. P2F works well for Indonesia carriers. For one, the employer gets a pilot who is fluent in English, is willing to fly for a short period of time while the carrier grows its own stable of pilots. Instead of hiring a more experienced pilot who once typed will readily bounce to a major airline. Got that? Are you sure you are a pilot? This is simple math here. Who cares what you think, you’re not the corporate officer of an Indonesian carrier, got that?

Besides, you don’t have what it takes to succeed, because you want to have all the details worked out so that you can still invest in real estate as you pursue your career in aviation? Wha? Those are your pearls of passivity, not mine. “Sell my soul,” Ha! You are the consummate drama queen. Exactly, you keep on believing that you are going to beat the competition, managing real estate and flying C-172's with "pride," :rolleyes: especially now that the age of mandatory retirement for commercial pilots is age 65. At this rate the only whining you are going to hear from any cockpit is not the sound of jet engine, rather your voice as you watch an A320 taxi by that your buddy in Indonesia was hired into. Cool, huh? :ok:

Just maybe, just mayyybe you’ll get to the right seat by the time you are 50. Newsflash: Nobody keeps score, just bitter whiners like yourself, but you keep telling yourself that as you eventually hobble into the cockpit with pride, a cane, and a hearing aid. Cheers, NZ’s Buttercup:cool:

[TheExpatPilot]

peepsmover1... :ugh:

You are missing the point entirely. It's amazing how many times this needs to be repeated.

The main issue is not the ability of an individual pilot, the issue is much much bigger than that. We're talking on an industry size scale here. You clearly aren't following what's happening and are a little out of touch with the real world.

The P2F movement will destroy the conditions of our industry. You won't feel it now, but let's see how you feel when your pay begins to start reducing year on year as you keep being undercut and your valued job becomes worthless.

The virus you helped to create (or supported) will ultimately contribute to your downfall. All of ours. This issue is much bigger than any one individual.

Good luck with your careers. We'll all see each other at the meal ticket booth in a decade or so. Thanks boys.

[flyboy_nz]

peepsmover1, your meek attempts to insult me by my country of origins only proves that you got easily offended by my post which proves my exact point. I am going to debate with you without calling any names or making comments about your nationality, in other words without steeping down to your level, and that my friend is an insult to you in itself, but for someone like you, take it as a compliment.

The issue about the USAF was to point out that that low-time pilots can fly complex operations, who cares how many wash out---the government pays the tab you, twit.

The question is not about experience and complex operations, it's about not paying to get the seat but earning it. And yes it matters how many wash out. The more that do, the more money has been wasted. That is the exact reason why military training requires a cadet to finish the training at the required minimums. To keep the costs down.

Not every carrier in the world operates a P2F model, for obvious reasons, because it will not survive the competition.

It is because it's illegal. If it wasn't, most carriers would do so. Hence you see more cadet schemes rising up with poor terms and conditions.

Nobody owes you anything

You are desperate enough to pay for it, you think you deserve it more and it's fair? And because you can afford it, you think you're better. Unfortunately not and this is why I think it's unfair for others who are better to not get that job.

For one, the employer gets a pilot who is fluent in English, is willing to fly for a short period of time while the carrier grows its own stable of pilots. Instead of hiring a more experienced pilot who once typed will readily bounce to a major airline.

If Indonesia really wanted, all pilots would be speaking Bahasa on the radio. Just look at the English speaking level of the ATC. English is not taught in most schools here. Yes, it does benefit the airline like I said so in my previous post. The Airline is only hiring locals because of the DGCA rules. The P2f has been a huge profit for the airlines hence more and more asian airlines are jumping on the bandwagon and more and more people as yourself and ready to lube up and bend over for that RHS. When the locals get on, I bet you they gonna be hired on worse terms with longer contracts, so the airlines still keep their costs down. Oh and guess who they are gonna replace? You my friend. Then you can cry about how you were unfairly failed on your sim check.

Who cares what you think, you’re not the corporate officer of an Indonesian carrier, got that?

In their dreams... actually, I have held a higher position than that but I have a job offer that most guys like you can only have wet dreams of with double the salary of an Indonesian carrier captain, tax free, accommodation and food provided and to really rub salt in the wounds, that was without an interview and I am just 29 ;) Life is truly unfair. So, tell me why would I give up all that for 50k only to bummed in a RHS of a jet like yourself?

Oh yes, I would rather fly a C-172 than having to pay to fly a 737. Something which you will never understand, something your father should have taught you a long time ago, but I guess you're a spoilt brat who always held daddy's hand and been saved by his wallet? And I would still fly the 737 better than you my friend, I can assure you and a few will too! (I know you are one of the spanish clowns in Lion Air with P2f program, we hear plenty of stories from the senior Capts)

Remember high school? I am the guy that sleeps with the prom queen but because of your desperation, you pay for the sex with some random prostitute. End of the day according to you, p*ssy is p*ssy, haha, I hear you guys are the favourite scam happening with the X2 and the FA girls these days. Have a think about it, and let it settle down. Then you will realise why P2f is an insult to the industry.

RHS at 50? So what? I would have achieved more by that age that you would in a lifetime. Heck, I have already done so. The goal is not the jet job. Why would someone like me want a job that's been robbed of all it's glory with a huge pay cut. What do you earn again? $2000 a month for a 737 radio and flap operator. I earn five times that and I actually own a house thanks to the company I work for. While you stay in a crappy accommodation in Tamang Amrek or the slums in jakarta, no sight of LHS in the near future but all you are is just a temporary replacement till the locals come along. Working all year and getting a few days off while I work four weeks and get two off. You have worst conditions than the bluebird taxi drivers. A job where once people were called Aviators deserved to fly that seat but now being replaced by glorified bus drivers like you. At least a bus driver doesn't have to pay for his/her job.

I am gonna tell you something which you should have realised a long time ago, but you haven't for the obvious reasons. Sir E. Hillary climbed up Everest, not jump off a plane with a chute and landed on top. I doubt you will understand what I mean by that statement, I am sure it will fly overhead. But you will reply with some unintelligent comment about kiwis and sheep.

Run along now to your shiny jet, the capt needs more coffee...

[IXUXU]

+1
I´m with the kiwi boy :ok:

If somebody needs an explanation about how p2f schemes are harming the industry and everyone´s present and future T&Cs.....I would advise to get professional help asap and, of course, to consider a career change.

Now the good news:
If you guys are willing to pay for a job, instead being paid for doing the job...you don´t need a CPL or ATPL, actually I very much doubt you really need a job.

Just get a PPL and stay there.

[lingdee]

I think those who are already a pilot couldn't care less of those who wish to obtain their first break especially the first pilot job.

The misconception of p2f is to jump que and fly the big shiny jets is nonsense and that perception is very wrong.

Please show me any airline that accept CPL with 600 hours ( non citizen ) and get everything fully sponsored?

The real culprits are those pilots few years back who were given a free rating and subsequently ran away when they collect the hours causing us the future or rather current pilots to suffer.

I have send my cv to almost every airline and the minimum requirement is 500 hour on type and please tell me where can I collect those jet hours?

[IXUXU]

Why do you think all these airlines are asking for those 500 hours? even better Why the same airline that is asking for 500 hours doesn´t have a problem hiring you.... if you pay for it? think about.

The day no one support these p2f schemes some of those airlines will stop to ask for those 500 hours. Cause if they don´t, they won´t find enough pilots and the only place for their aircrafts will be the apron. Period.

Time, for the pilot community, to realize who has the real power to fix the rules.

[pilotchute]

The reason most airlines can ask for 500 hours right now is because there are bucket loads of rated guys with hours without jobs. When the economy finally picks up and hiring starts again these mins will change.

I dont think any of the US regionals require time on type nor do the Australian jet operators such as Jetstar and Virgin. The place where time on type is required is Europe and the Middle East. Why is that? Because there are so many spare pilots in Europe thats where they can set the bar. The ME airlines have always asked for jet time but not always on type. The US regionals pay so poorly that they have to pay for type training. The Australian airlines cant ask for time on type cause no one actually has any who isn't already working for an airline already.

Stop saying I cant get a job cause of the 500 hours on type rules. Go fly for someone who doesn't ask for 500 on type. Oh my god you may have to fly a SE piston. How will you live with the shame?

What all of you people need is patience. Something most p2f people have not a lot of.

[eaglesnest1972]

Maximum support to the last two posts!

[captjns]

I hope I do not offend anyone and or the Mods of PPrune of my analogy. If so, please accept my humble apology.

Someone please enlighten me. Explain the different between "Pay to Fly" chap who goes through a shyster contracting agency versus a "John" looking for instant gratification, that needs to deal with a pimp.

Think about it...

The John is the chap who does not want to go through the romance thing, or just can't meet a nice lass... versus P2Fer who wants the right seat now without paying their dues.

Pimps are willing to take a "John's" money for services to be rendered... versus the shyster contracting agency is also willing to take money from the P2Fer so they can get into the right seat of a jet.

Hookers, recommended by pimps provide that special service of wonderment and awe... versus many a carrier in Indonesia, is also provide a service. But before the services are rendered, both the hooker, and airline get their money in advance. No refunds in either case.

OK now we go back to the pimp and shyster contracting organization. They get their cut too, a finder's fee lets say.

No back the "John" and the P2Fer. The "John" got his rocks off. Did not have to pitch or woo the lass. He got what he paid for... instant gratification. What's the "John" left with? an empty pocket and possibly a STD.

The P2F chap after putting 500 hours in the log book? You know the one who bypassed the system where major part of the assessment is "You got the money?" Well he is $50,000 lighter in the pocket along with the "Stigma" of being a P2Fer. That stigma will follow them for the rest of their careers. I can guaranty, Fly Dubai, Emirates, Jet Airways, Qatar, Etihad, to say the least. Will round file any applications that have the smell of P2F on them. Think long an hard boys and girls. That my future and current P2Fer, you can take that to the bank.

In a previous post Koji188 stated my bitterness towards P2F schemes as well as asked for alternatives to build up legitimate flight time.

Again, Koji188... you can take the path of reward such as instructing, night freight, missionary flying, taking a job at bottom feeder that does not require payment from the pilot as condition of employment. Again, there are the cade programs too. You need to show the carrier, before they are willing to invest a bankroll on you, that you are worthy of joining their carrier. Perhaps you like many P2Fer would rather take the route of instant gratification rather than rewarding route to the jet.

[TheExpatPilot]

lingdee,

How can you say that we couldn't care less about your first pilot job?? We've been there, it's bloody tough!! We empathise with you.

What you need to realise is these jobs requiring 500 on type are not aimed at you. There is a massive surplus of current 737 and 320 drivers out of work for various reasons. That's who they're targeting, because they can, and why not?

What you guys need to be doing are looking for real first jobs. No airline is realistically going to take someone with no experience when there are so many people current on type out of work. These agencies are preying on your hopes and dreams. The reality is whether you've wanted to be a pilot all your life, or you're looking for a career change, or you wanted an excuse to buy Ray Ban's and tell everyone how fantastic you are, the road to the top is a long one. You must be prepared for this. In fact, had you been well informed you would have been prepared for this even before you started flying school.

Nothing in life comes easy, neither does this. You must realise you guys are the VAST minority on this issue. This is an arguement you cannot, nor ever will win. It's common sense people. Enjoy the ride and don't be in such a rush. If you're rushing because you're in it for the money, I'm afraid you're in the wrong job.

[flyboy_nz]

To the fresh CPL holders, if you ever get the chance, read the book by the title 'Fate is the hunter' by E. K. Gann. It changed my prespective on flying.

The goal is not the shiny jets, it's the journey that takes you there. Same with climbing Mt. Everest. You can jump from a plane on top of the summit (an accomplishment in itself) or you can climb up all the way. But when you get there, it's the journey you will look back at that will give you the satisfaction.

There's so many fantastic jobs in Indonesia/Asia that a fresh CPL holder can apply to. Personally, flying a PC-6 into some of those mountain strips for AMA would be an absolute thrill, something you will never find in the airlines. A friend of mine who's a 737 captain wants to quit his job and fly porters in Papua! Why, he's bored of the same old sh!t everyday.

Indonesia is desperate for instructors. So what if it's a SE? You will meet some fantastic pupils who will remain your friends for life.

[TheBigD]

Peeps,
Let me try to explain a few things very quickly.
1. The Pilot selection process for the US military (as if for most armed services in the world) is such that even before applicants start their flight training, they have gone through an aptitude of various tests. And once they commence with flight training they are held to VERY high standards and their progress is monitored VERY closely. And a LOT is expected of them. And the washout rate is high. Much different standards then for a person walking into a flight school who just starts taking flying lessons and gets his CPL
2. I am a Yank, but I am assuming the Lufthansa scheme you are talking about is similarly fashioned like that of military flight training. Lufti pays for the students training. The student undergoes a battery of different tests before he/she is accepted into the program, and once in the program their progress is monitored very closely.

Let me use an analogy to try to explain why P2F is wrong.

If you graduated with a degree in aeronautical engineering and Boeing offered you a job to work for them, would you take it? Absolutely you would.
Now imagine you graduated with a degree in aeronautical engineering and for you to get that job with Boeing you have to shell out $50,000 and they only guarantee employment for 6 - 12 months? Would you take it? I know what my answer would be. I am assuming yours would also be no.

So my question is why then would P2F be acceptable, while the above would be considered reprehensible of the employer?

[lingdee]

Well , no one has really answered my question heh?

It's easy to say don't do p2f and go find a job that doesn't need to have 500 hour on type and bla bla bla.

Simple, show me one job for cpl and more importantly without paying a single cent here? And when I said that I have actually lost count on how many airlines around the globe i send my cv to.

p2f is not a way to jump the que and fly big shiny jets. Look at the case of tiger and jetstar,both big names in Australia and not only they want you to pay for your type rating but your whole flight training as well which can cost about 200k grand. And let's not forget that during this period you are not paid a single cent.

Even 5 star airline like qatar airways is asking cadets to pay.

It's for an airline to save cost and yet again, no one dare to comment on past sponsored pilots who got the free rating and ran away causing the airline to lose tons of money.

It has to be a win win for both side.

So conclusion is,talk is cheap, show me the job people, if as you said so long we tried and they are jobs for cpl, trust me, the p2f will die by itself.

But look at the current situation especially with 12000 jobless pilot in india and not even counting those from other countries and experience jobless pilots, even with money today you cant even join any p2f.

[Gtr21]

@ flyboy_nz take a bow sir, take a bow :D that was well said. agree with every word you said

[TheExpatPilot]

Urgh... It's like talking to a brick wall.

Let's make this a little clearer. Cadetships are different as there is a screening process and they take the "best and brightest" (supposedly).

P2F there is no screening procesa except the amount of money you can provide. So any muppet can fly these things. I feel safer already.

[flyboy_nz]

Simple, show me one job for cpl and more importantly without paying a single cent here? And when I said that I have actually lost count on how many airlines around the globe i send my cv to.

Everest didn't go to New Zealand and offered Sir E. Hillary to climb her. Sir E. Hillary went to Nepal to climb her.

Look at the case of tiger and jetstar,both big names in Australia and not only they want you to pay for your type rating but your whole flight training as well which can cost about 200k grand. And let's not forget that during this period you are not paid a single cent.

It's actually more like 120k and it received quite a bit of flak in the Australian aviation community. The reason the cost was so high was because of the flying school that was being used which charges almost $500/hr for a C-172.

Also, there are still direct entry FO positions in these airlines which don't require you to pay anything, but you need 500 multi command to apply.

Even 5 star airline like qatar airways is asking cadets to pay

But the question is will you? Under what T&Cs? And no Qatar is not a 5-star airline. Might have bought a few awards for themselves just like they bought the world cup.

It's for an airline to save cost and yet again, no one dare to comment on past sponsored pilots who got the free rating and ran away causing the airline to lose tons of money.

Some people have no sense of loyalty or integrity. It is unfortunate and this is what this generation has come to. It's all about taking it all and never giving anything back.

So conclusion is,talk is cheap, show me the job people

Talk is cheap, that's why the job is already filled. Because the one who isn't on pprune asking to be shown the job has already got it.

But look at the current situation especially with 12000 jobless pilot in india and not even counting those from other countries and experience jobless pilots, even with money today you cant even join any p2f

India has got bigger problems that those 12000 unemployed people. There's about 1.2 million that would appreciative more to even see an aeroplane. And out of those 12000, only 120 would put their hand up to go to Africa to earn a living as a pilot. Out of which only 12 will go. Why? Because pay some more money and there's p2f available across the ditch. The big shiny jet syndrome is alive and well there.

[pilotchute]

Three people sitting around my house last night. All got licences around mid to late 00's. 2004 to 2008.

None of us are flying jets yet. All of us got our first jobs as jump pilots. All of us have time on SE/MEP and single engine turbine and one has MET. We aren't complaining about not being in a jet but just enjoying the ride to get there.

All of us are now on the wrong side of 30. If your in a hurry to fly heavy metal, now isn't the time to be getting a CPL. It hasn't been for a while. If you have recently got a CPL and are crying about there being no jobs then you are equally stupid and ignorant at the same time. The industry has been like this for the last nearly 5 years. If you couldn't see this before you started then you must have been living life with your eyes and ears closed. Stop the endless "where are the jobs" crap and go and find one instead of moaning about it(there are still jobs around if you look really hard). Oh you cant because you have no initiative, drive or brains to do it yourself.

[Gtr21]

@lingdee even without googling i can tell you, a place you can try its called susi air, they were hiring till 6th of this month, and sky aslong as you can get an Indonesian cpl. but hey its flying a caravan will you be able to handle not flying a big plane ??
you keep banging on about show me a commercial job for pilots without 500 hour or TR , why do you think its your god given right to jump onto the right seat of a jet ?
and about qatari i think flyboi_nz explained it well.

[smiling monkey]

Don't you dare judge me.

You will be judged by others whether you like it or not. When you apply for your next job, you will be judged by the DFO, chief pilot and the selection committee of that airline. That's life.

I had lunch with a friend of mine who is chief pilot of the A320 fleet of an airline in Asia. He tells me he receives hundreds of applications from all over the world ranging from those with 250 hours TT with an A320 rating but with zero hours on type, to those who have in advance of 5000 hours on type. I asked him which candidates he prefers to choose and his reply was simple. During his time, there was no P2F schemes at all. He worked his way from being a 200 hour fresh CPL 30 odd years ago, to flying scenic flights in single engine Cessnas, to flying multi-piston charter aircraft until he got his first break as an F/O in a regional airline after 2000 hours flying piston power aircraft. He said those who have done it this way have proven their dedication to the industry; they're the type of people who are in it for the right reasons and they will be the ones on top of his list.

He went on to to say, when you have a large pool of candidates to choose all with similar jet experience, what separates one candidate from the other, is the journey that they have taken to get to where they are now. It's not all about the hours.

[lingdee]

s.monkey, you mention during his time , he said there were no p2f, obviously this chief pilot ( or maybe you are that chief pilot yourself ), started his career ages ago when there are not so many pilot and type rating are still being sponsored and there still are jobs available for cpl

My mates in lion got into korean and especially flyscoot and qatar on the B777 because they have the jet hours from lion air. So for qr, you guys accuse it of having loads of money to buy award, so in this case how about flyscoot , which you have to pay for the rating even you are experience. Isn't it own by a renowned airline such as Singapore airline and Singapore government?

As for you pilotchute, of cause you wont be getting a real airline job and continue being a jump pilot or whatever job you are doing now.Yes i got my cpl not long ago and yuu said that we were blind of not knowing the industry.

I think you are one who is not aware of the current pilot situation.there are only 2 sides of the coin. Either p2f or airline sponsor.

Unless you are local and the citizen of that country,you will continue to be a jump pilot or whatever jobs that you are flying now.

So you still expect things today like the old days?

1) Invited for an interview and with all fully paid , maybe should throw in a business class seat as well since you are an expat
2) expect to get the job for free with no regards of the feelings of the locals and think that you deserve the job ?
3) everyone who work and help you along the way to get the job should also work for free to help to secure a job since everyone owes you a living?
4) Once you have you hours and rating, you can just go and causing the airline to lose money

I am thinking of both ways and what if you are the airline yourself? If you are the management of flyscoot and qatar?

[Gtr21]

@lingdee i presume from your posts you are from India , here are three jobs for cpl holders
1. prime air ambulance
2. Maldivian air taxi
3. deccan aviation is accepting cv's.
Hope it helps

[theflight]

i am sorry but i dont agree with you. i came to indonesia through an agency in 2010 when there was no job around. and 3months back i got into a reputed airline in middle east. its because of the decision that i made back then that i am where i am right now.

[smiling monkey]

s.monkey, you mention during his time , he said there were no p2f, obviously this chief pilot ( or maybe you are that chief pilot yourself ), started his career ages ago when there are not so many pilot and type rating are still being sponsored and there still are jobs available for cpl

lingdee, he started his aviation career in the early 1980's and believe me, it was just as competitive then to get your first job in aviation as it is now. It has never been easy and where we come from, it was unheard of then, that you walk in an airline fresh from flying school. You usually need around 1000 to 1500 hours before you can even be eligible to apply for an airline job, and this is still the case now for the major airlines. It has never been easy, and those who did complete their CPL/IR but weren't motivated enough to gain hours flying small piston engine aircraft in the outback doing charter or scenic flights or become flight instructors, fell away by the wayside and pursued other careers outside of flying. There was no such thing and P2F then. Infact, there was no P2F at all in Indonesia until around 2009/2010 when EagleJet came in to the picture and approached Lion Air with the offer. Other Indonesian airlines quickly followed suit with Sriwijaya jumping on board. Merpati only had a few P2F but the majority of foreigners who were recruited only paid for their license conversions but the type rating and line training was provided by the company free of charge. I believe there's only one group of P2Fs amongst the Citilink recruits with others having already an A320 TR with time on type before being recruited.


My mates in lion got into korean and especially flyscoot and qatar on the B777 because they have the jet hours from lion air. So for qr, you guys accuse it of having loads of money to buy award, so in this case how about flyscoot , which you have to pay for the rating even you are experience. Isn't it own by a renowned airline such as Singapore airline and Singapore government?

So here you have the situation where your mate paid to fly to get jet experience, and once he had the experience, he then pays again to get another TR. Where do you think Scoot got that idea from? :rolleyes: That just shows how the industry is heading thanks to the P2Fs. It never used to be that way. Indonesia only started having P2Fs after Lion made that huge order of 739s and that was only in the last 4 years or so.

Thank goodness the DGCA is putting a stop to this right now by bringing in the 250 hours on type rule. And with the two recent incidents which involved P2F pilots in the RHS of those accidents, it's very unlikely that the DGCA will do a back flip on this ruling.

[smiling monkey]

i am sorry but i dont agree with you. i came to indonesia through an agency in 2010 when there was no job around. and 3months back i got into a reputed airline in middle east. its because of the decision that i made back then that i am where i am right now.

Hey, one post wonder, welcome to PPruNe captain. What I mentioned are the sentiments of my chief pilot friend; whether you agree with it or not, is irrelevant.

[DragonFly-ing]

Smiling Monkey Wrote :
Thank goodness the DGCA is putting a stop to this right now by bringing in the 250 hours on type rule. And with the two recent incidents which involved P2F pilots in the RHS of those accidents, it's very unlikely that the DGCA will do a back flip on this ruling.

Excuses me Mr. Monkey, but is there no-one in the left seat? ohh, yeah we forget, an Indo-Capt usually who are already to dangerous to handle a Cessna let alone let them 'command' an aircraft of this size... I mean really.. Going around at 20' ft RA with 1000's of hours on type. It's common in the culture in Indonesia as well as India to lose face when doing a missed approach, that's why they both didn't do anything.

Then add the fact that mr. MSD Indian boyyy calls himself capt (usually Indians have this habit in Lion) but is still afraid of the guy on the left to make a 'go around' call for it. :ugh:

Also the 'no flying below 5000ft for F.O. in Lion' was crap in the first place. Most capt were making the tailstrikes anyway, not the P2F'ers (although, maybe some of them did in line-training, but isn't line-training there to be corrected by someone on the left?)

Lion has a reputation to work on but will never, never ever, catch up in the next 10 years because of all the 'personality's ' flying as captain.

The DGCA should check more thoroughly on fake licenses and Lion simchecks which Lion signs off, but never really take place in Bandara Mas. The local DGCA turns a blind eye to this as well. This last thing is actually more for the elderly Capts' in Lion to keep them in the running :} , the rest usually does the sim anyway.

I think Citilink and Garuda are ahead of the pack, but still behind on 'western' standards.

[smiling monkey]

Excuses me Mr. Monkey, but is there no-one in the left seat? ohh, yeah we forget, an Indo-Capt usually who are already to dangerous to handle a Cessna let alone let them 'command' an aircraft of this size... I mean really.. Going around at 20' ft RA with 1000's of hours on type. It's common in the culture in Indonesia as well as India to lose face when doing a missed approach, that's why they both didn't do anything.


Well, I'm happy to wait for the final report to confirm but I do believe it was the RHS who were PF for that sector that lead to both the Lion Air and Merpati accidents. WRT to the Lion Air water landing, what I'm still baffled about is why the PF in the RHS handed over to the captain to do the Go Around and doing this below the MDH? Couldn't he have performed the GA himself? There's another thread about the Lion Air accident if you wish to discuss it further.

[aimtofly]

WRT to the Lion Air water landing, what I'm still baffled about is why the PF in the RHS handed over to the captain to do the Go Around and doing this below the MDH?

Is there any evidence suggesting a positive exchange of controls upon captain's request?? CRM:ugh: Regardless I just don't think there's enough time to do that when ur so dangerously low. I would've hit the TO/GA first then get back in the soup, clean up and let him shoot another approach if that is what he intends to. It's sad that going around is still frowned upon in many companies. Is the extra fuel burn worth the lives of 150+ people?? Absolutely!!!!

[pilotchute]

Lingdee,

Your mates who got into Scoot and whatever are very lucky. I was talking to Lion guys yesterday and they were worried because they have been sending out CV's like crazy but no one seems to be hiring. You have to remember that having 500 hours typed and TT of 2000 hours doesn't make a job a certainty.

I no longer fly jumpers nor do any of my friends. That was just an example that there are still entry level jobs around. We are all on mutli TP's now but only one of us has Multi TP command. I didn't make that clear in my post.

Have you actually left India and knocked on any doors? Out of the 6000 pilots in India without a job how do you make your application stand out? You say that you have sent CV's all around the world with no reply. Did you really expect one?

As for it being easy before and hard now to get a job you can just look back on posts on Prune over the years to see the same old rubbish being told. It always seems to come up that "a few years ago it was easier cause there were more jobs then" This may be true when the expansion plans of easy and Ryan were going full steam ahead but what about before then? The industry goes in cycles and mostly we are in the non hiring part of the cycle. I do believe that once a upon a time in the UK you had to have 700TT to get a CPL. What would all you whiners have done back then?

An ex 777 driver at Korean told me it took 15 years for him to get into a F27 from pistons. Didn't touch a jet til he was 40 and didn't make skipper til almost 50. 30 years to make jet Captain and all you guys on here making noise about it being hard. It is not even close to being like that now and I think it may have got easier, not harder.

[BRY7]

is there an official article about this?

[stratofactor]

p2f is not a way to jump the que and fly big shiny jets.


Enlighten me please, what exactly is p2f?

[BRY7]

pay to fly, funding your own type rating in return hoping the airline provides you a position

[captjns]

Better description. Pay to Fly Schemes is one where a pilot pays for their type rating, and a predetermined number of hours of right seat time pulling the gear and moving the flap lever.

The Pay to Fly scheme is one that enables spoiled children to lower the bar as far a quality of and safety of operations of air commerce. Low cost carriers in Indonesia, which are black listed from US and EU airspace, is where one can find most of these schemes.

Management of respected carriers around the world are aware of P2F schemes. The management realize there are and abundant of quality of pilots, who have chosen not to take the P2F route, available for employment. They also know that these are quality pilots who earned their way into the cockpit. They did not use their money, or sphere of influence to gain access to the cockpit. That said, until such time the pool of qualified pilots have dried up, the P2Fers will be left in the deep end to drown... as it should be.:ok: Oh well... such as life.

[wongsuzie]

The 'Pay to Fly scheme' is to all intents a single pilot ops as the LH seat will be be doing all the work.

[pull-up-terrain]

It's actually more like 120k and it received quite a bit of flak in the Australian aviation community. The reason the cost was so high was because of the flying school that was being used which charges almost $500/hr for a C-172.

Also, there are still direct entry FO positions in these airlines which don't require you to pay anything, but you need 500 multi command to apply.


In Australia, cadetships make up <10% of airline pilot recruitment. The rest come from flying in General Aviation, military and Regional Airlines.

You will find that most airlines in Australia and New Zealand require a complete ATPL before you join. None of this 500 hours on type rules like it is in Europe and Asia.

When you join an Airline like Jetstar, Virgin, Cobham, Qantas etc or any regional airline like Qantaslink, Virgin Aus Regional, Skippers, air north etc, you dont pay for your type rating, but you are bonded for 3 years, so lets say if you decide to leave before the 3 years is up, you have to pay the remainder of your type rating. But if you stay for the 3 years, the type rating is completely free. Even the pilots get paid while doing the ground school too.

[pilotchute]

Last time I checked Virgin and Jetstar most certainly charged you for a type rating. The only good thing was you could pay it back by salary deduction over 3 years. I'm sure they bonded you on top of this

[Centaurus]

Jetstar most certainly charged you for a type rating

Heard a figure of $40,000 cost to the student.

[captjns]

Bonding is not unreasonable. From the Airline's perspective free type ratings can get rather costly when chaps move on to bigger and better with only 6 months of service.

Say no to P2Fers amongst our ranks:=

[pilotchute]

Captjns,

You think its fair to bond people who pay for the type rating out of their own pocket?

[captjns]

The purpose of bonding is so the pilot does not pay for his/her type rating. It is to provide the airline that paid for the type rating a remedy to collect on an amount paid should they leave within a certain period of time after the completion of training.

[captjns]

Love PanAm just does not get the picture.:ugh:

Hi guys,

What is the latest on FO hiring at Lion Air?
Still need to pay 50,000 USD to get a seat?
I might do it as nobody hires me and I am getting desperate to get a job.

Thnkx

Another chap wanting to be part of the problem rather than the solution:=

[JJ330]

Anybody knows Globalwingsolutions?

They are offering P2F program for Citilink....

[pilotchute]

I have posted on here before as have many others that P2F in Indonesia is pretty much dead. The requirement to have 250 hours on type to secure a job is being enforced.

Unless you live and work here already and you posses and Indonesian licence (plus know the right people and be prepared to give some "gifts") there is pretty much zero chance of you getting a job here if you don't have 250 on type. P2F or not.

[Gtr21]

@love panam i dont know why you want to go down the p2f road, but here is the answer you were looking for i guess.
the p2f is not back, the Indonesian govt has 250 hour rule still in place, so unless you have 250 hours on type you cant work in Indonesia.
I AGREE KIDS BUY A JOB.
i presume you are from America? if i am wrong i do apologize i am just going buy your id name, if that's the case there are loads of cargo jobs available esp flying the atr might be worth a look .
But if you rather just shell out 50 grand then fly for free for another 6 months and whoring out our profession should just apply to eagle jet or try sri lanka heard that's the new p2f heaven

[captjns]

Love Pan Am is of the opinion that...

Cargo at night! no thanks, my friend is doing it and he hates it. No shiny uniform and no cute flight attendants, no glamour:=

Well at least Pan Am, your firend your friend can look himself in the mirror and say that he's acquiring experience the honest way:ok::D. He certainly will garner a heck of a lot more respect than those cheats who would rather short cut the system as P2Fers.

Remember P2Fers are none too welcome at the adults table during meal time:=.

P2Fers can sit in the corner at the kiddie table with their bibs and sup on pab.:ok:

[Flappo]

I guess Love Panam was being ironic...
I mean... I want to believe he was being ironic...

[Gtr21]

@panam i really hope you are taking the piss

[nostep]

Dont worry all PanAm friends are already in indonesia stealing jobs thinking the same way, I cant fly but have shiny wings and hot chicks Im the man

[pilotchute]

PanAm,

I'm glad you are able to form your own opinions.

[smiling monkey]

Only problem when the technology fails.:confused:
But, the statistics say that the technology fails less that the pilots.

The last few major accidents, eg Lion Air B738 undershoot in Bali and the Asiana B777 undershoot in SFO was not a case of the technology failing, but a case of poor flying skills/airmanship. Two perfectly working aircraft, flown in to the ground (sea in the case of Lion) due to a lack of the basics of flying an aircraft.

[smiling monkey]

No shiny uniform and no cute flight attendants, no glamour:=

If that's the only reason why you wish to become an airline pilot, then I seriously hope no reputable airline will hire you. I'm guessing that you're quite a high timer, 5000 - 6000 hours perhaps, but probably all on single engine pistons, perhaps most of it as a flight instructor? I don't mean any offense, but if you haven't attracted airline recruiters, or even part 135 recruiters after such experience, then that's probably telling you something about your own suitability for such operations.

If you're in it for the glamor then there's nothing stopping you from purchasing a set of epaulettes and wings at a pilot supply shop, and wearing your uniform around in the terminal building dragging along your trolley bag around, with raybans on (at night even). You don't need any flying skills for that, and this way, you'll leave the airline jobs for those who really do deserve it.

[jetjockey696]

purchasing a set of epaulettes and wings at a pilot supply shop, and wearing your uniform around in the terminal building dragging along your trolley bag around, with raybans on (at night even). You don't need any flying skills for that, and this way, you'll leave the airline jobs for those who really do deserve it.

sounds like a you seen a lot of lion expat pilots... yep lot of expat pilots wearing laybans...roaming the terminals. must be suffering from photophobia....haha.

[Hogger60]

purchasing a set of epaulettes and wings at a pilot supply shop, and wearing your uniform around in the terminal building dragging along your trolley bag around, with raybans on (at night even). You don't need any flying skills for that, and this way, you'll leave the airline jobs for those who really do deserve it. Either that or they consider their future so bright they have to wear shades to protect their eyes.

[wisecaptain]

It seems the latest rumour is that a lot of Lion Air f/o's are getting jobs in Turkish Airlines on the B737NG.
Like it or not , they have made a good investment and really , are they taking these jobs from Europeans???

[jetjockey696]

..... 1000hr+ NG gods of the sky.

OR they all want to be Capt Sam.(Triumph in the Skies)

http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy41/joshuaongyscom/2013%20Others/TriumphintheSkies2Movie1.jpg

[squarecrow]

@Panam I thought you said you had TR with no experience yet now say you worked for reputable Airline. There is a useful 4 letter word and you really are full of it. Do keep spouting it as well. You are showing the world here 2 things.

1 hopefully no Airline will hire you and then no unfortunate Captain will have you on the RHS.

2 Your Mate is also a Clown to tell you what he did, thus he also must be like you worthy to wear the yellow suit. There is no point to say anymore you are clearly too naive and stuck up to learn anything.

BTW XMAS was last December. I don't celebrate it either

[squarecrow]

Panam the only thing you are proving here is your attitude problem that's all.
As I said I really hope you don't end up on the RHS with me or any one else.

[pilotchute]

We should probably stop feeding pan am now. He seems to be growing stronger everyday.

[mooseknuckles]

Just FYI,

The last few accidents involving US airlines in the states all had pilots with P2F backgrounds from Gulfstream Airlines. It was well known as the sleaziest outfit in the states where pilots who couldn't get jobs at the better regionals went to pay for their time. Since Buffalo, where one or both pilots came from gulfstream before getting on with Colgan, the requirement to fly at any 121 carrier is 1500 hours and an ATP. Basically no more P2F in the states because it has proven fatal in several cases.

[lingdee]

Rumour that the rule will be uplifted in August and then September and it's already October with no latest development. Are there any plans to seriously abolish the 250 rule since news has it that they only train 400 local pilots but need 1000 yearly?

[brasmelzuit]

I hope the rule stays there..
Sriwijaya just cut over 70 expats who has not started line training.
Some local initial pilots have been waiting more than a year to get job, that was 'stolen' fom them by p2f-ers

[msian1147]

yeahh been hearing it for a while..no salary, just allowances doing observation flights, and they're on their own when it comes to the work permit..

most locals are going to the NGs for now though a few guys are still in CL sim

[training wheels]

Rumour that the rule will be uplifted in August and then September and it's already October with no latest development.

That rumour might have something to do with one of the top brass at the DGCA moving on from the DGCA for greener pastures. Yes, the guy who brought in the 250 hour rule. Usually, when the top brass goes, many of his subordinates will also be relinquished in to lesser roles within the Department. Whether there will be a change in policy after the change at helm occurs, is anybody's guess at this stage.

[training wheels]

Sriwijaya just cut over 70 expats who has not started line training.

Were these the people who paid big money to an agent to get in to Sriwijaya? I also heard Sriwijaya is struggling to keep its head above water at the moment and may go the way of Batavia.

[msian1147]

really struggling mate, but what can we expect? dumba** guys in the marketing all they care about is updating Facebook and Path as well as instagram..oh not to forget the excessive time wasted on 'ngopi-ngopi' and 'ngobrol-ngobrol duluan ya mas'

[pilotchute]

Stolen jobs,

Most of the guys that Sriwijaya were taking on were ex Batavia so they got preference of expats and 250 hours locals. If any locals waited a year that is why. Not that the "expats" were taking all the spots.

Don't forget also, Sriwijaya were happy to take the money from these people so maybe poor little 250 hour local guy should complain to the management of Sriwijaya instead of just saying its the expats fault.

Msian, can you please tell me where in Indonesia "smoking and chatting" isn't done on a constant bases making getting anything done in that country takes months instead of days?

[smiling monkey]

The expats will be seconded to lion air and rejoin back sri wijaya once more NG arriving

Not that easy to do, due to the work permits and KITAS being company specific. Where do you get these stories from Lingdee or do you make these up yourself?

[hoelie]

About the 250hours rule being uplifted or not..

Any news or rumours from the front?

[pilotchute]

No its still there. If it is lifted they will certainly put up other barriers to stop the pay to fly rot setting in again.

[enicolasgomez]

Hey guys,

I heared that Garuda is screening for first officers. Do they hire pilots which do carry a non-indonesian license? Is it for indonesian only?

[brasmelzuit]

No need to be Indonesian citizen as long as you have minimum of 250hrs on typed you apply for..

[msian1147]

seconded to Lion? never heard of such thing from SJ, so far i've met a few Malaysian skippers from MH and FY on secondment contracts. And re-join SJ? really? unless those Hungarians won't mind for a pay in rupiah

[pilotchute]

For anyone interested Lion just got refused a request to have the 250 hour on type rule lifted.

The old head of licencing had gone and they must have thought the new guy might bin the rule. Well he didn't so it looks like the rule is here for a while longer now.

[lilflyboy262...2]

I'm not entirely sure how true this rumour is. Haven't spoken to the man himself but a friend of a friend is "working" at lion with less than 250.

Apparently he's not allowed to get paid until he has the 250hrs on type. After sitting there for the 250hrs, then he will get paid.

Anyone else heard of situations like that?

[pilotchute]

I have heard recently that the locals don't even get paid for the first 250 hours now that they fly when they start. Nothing would surprise me.

Lion have not taken on any foreigners with less than 250 hours since Jan 2013.

[captjns]

Flying without compensation is bad enough... but not worse than paying $50,000 to sit in the right seat and pull the gear.

[jetjockey696]

And fly with crazy grumpy old local captains... who hates you..and want to be captain alpha male... more so in Garuda.. Gods gift to aviation..

[sascha410]

@cptjns
I have been looking at this forum for a quiet a while now and from your side is coming only the same b... s.... and nonsense time after time. I believe everybody got your point by now and will you PLEASE b.... off. Thank you.

[nostep]

Why Sascha410, because Captjns has better spelling than you, or your one of the lucky I've paid for a rating and now not getting paid people, or is it that he always speaks the truth!!!!! Ill go get a tissue for you:D:D:D

[sascha410]

About spelling I can give you that one, but there it stops.
No I am not one of those guys, luckily I am getting OK T&C, but just luckily.
Nostep, on cptjns statement " but not worse than paying $50,000 to sit in the right seat and pull the gear." you are saying that he is right?! Where is there a bit of sense?
Anybody can fly and during their line training those guys are becoming well capable aviators. Call your colleagues "gear operators" it says much more on the person that is saying so than the ones he is referring to....

[lee_apromise]

sascha410, you seem to be out of this world and you are making yourself look like a troll.

[sky captain hero]

nybody can fly and during their line training those guys are becoming well capable aviators
This is simply not true, or at least it is true given indefinite flight time for the less capable. Not everyone can fly and not everyone can be a skipper: that is simply the truth that all instructors in aviation know.

[captjns]

sascha410 says: I have been looking at this forum for a quiet a while now and from your side is coming only the same b... s.... and nonsense time after time. I believe everybody got your point by now and will you PLEASE b.... off. Thank you.Now fess up Sascha... could it be that you, Sascha, came from a puppy mill? Were you ever a P2Fer at some time?


Nor for my response to your request Sascha... PLEASE Sascha... Go $hit in your hat! I did type PLEASE Sascha, so you can't label me as IMPOLITE.

[sascha410]

Still just BS from your side... Nothing constructive, no ability to comprehend, absolute blindness, feeling superior in your small world. I bet you vote for the right wing too...
You are just hopeless...

[squarecrow]

LOL, Mr Moderator please lockdown this slanging match yet again

[sascha410]

I apologize for my language...
Please help me out to find the right words for people that are time after time calling their colleagues all sorts of not nice names. At the same time claiming that people with 1000s of hours are useless, non capable, gear operators, radio operators, someone who is there just to occupied the seat...
This is absolutely ridiculous.
30-40 years back people were starting on the right seat in a Jet directly from flight school (in EU many company) and those people are today capable Captains, TRI, TRE... They acquire skills and knowledge during the career.
Can anyone show me the difference as I do not see it? Pay attention I am talking about flying not paying as the way someone gets into the cockpit is irrelevant here.

[TheBigD]

don't feed the troll.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/011/5/b/don__t_feed_the_troll___by_blag001-d5r7e47.png

[sascha410]

that is very easy to say. close the eyes when you see / hear something that you do not want to see/hear... and then tell me who is the troll?!

can you relate to the simple straight question?

[captjns]

30-40 years back people were starting on the right seat in a Jet directly from flight school (in EU many company) and those people are today capable Captains, TRI, TRE... They acquire skills and knowledge during the career.

Can anyone show me the difference as I do not see it? Pay attention I am talking about flying not paying as the way someone gets into the cockpit is irrelevant here.

Major Difference Sacha... 30 - 40 years ago, applicants were subjected to a rigorous evaluation process before being invited for training. Training was equally rigorous as well with no compromise of quality of training, or proficiency of the airman. No passes or get out of jail cards.

Today Sascha, pilots are selected primarily based on their ability to pay funds to participate in P2F schemes. Children want to play Buck Rogers? Then their parents pay the big bucks so they can play. Most parents, and some students pay for additional training if they fall behind. No washouts as was the case some 30 to 40 years ago. Got the $$$$??? the puppy mills will get ya through. No money is too much to get you in the right seat of a shiny jet. All it takes is money first then hopefully some ability. However, no family member of mine will ride any airline that is part of a P2F scheme. You Sascha, should have the same concerns for your family too.

[TheBigD]

Still just BS from your side... Nothing constructive, no ability to comprehend, absolute blindness, feeling superior in your small world.I bet you vote for the right wing too...
You are just hopeless...

So Sacha, please give us something constructive so we can understand your point of view? I just don't understand why you get so defensive and upset when we bring up the reasons why P2F is so wrong. Was the P2F scheme you participated in everything you hoped for and more?

Captjns :ok:

p.s. By the way Sascha, found this recent post from you. I think I answered my own question.

. At present I am "flying" in Indonesia and this is a curs on its own...
ATPL with1700tt, 1100large turboprop, 1500me, b737tr...all in all unfortunately not much forth in to days aviation.
.

[sascha410]

captjns thank you for trying. this was more mature attempt to make a point. well done. (no irony here)
Just a question, how much do you actually know about the selection process 30-40 years back, and quality of training? I do not know much about it but still…
I know that people were coming in not just from good renowned and reputable schools but also from small schools, flight and even gliders clubs. There was a period in 50s and 60s when aviation boomed and company were taking anything they could get in and those are todays most senior captains with 10s of 1000 of hours.
So I can agree with you to the certain point, but as before so is today, you have all sorts of school and ways to obtain your license. I am convinced that you can teach monkey to fly the aircraft it is only mater of time and effort (if you like it better – money).
And that is all what it is about. Life long learning, by flying everybody will learn eventually and at some point will satisfied criteria/standards. (nearly, but we should avoid talking about extremities). If someone fly for 1000 of hours he will eventually became capable aviators! Especially now days when piloting is so automatizied and pilots are just operators, driver no more no less no matter how much you would like to see it otherwise.

Regarding flying with companies that do the p2f is question of principles and feelings and I do not want to get into that discussion.
I am strongly against p2f, but it is much bigger than you try to make it. It is our reality and in my humble opinion fight should be fought at the CAA level or some/any sorts of regulatory instances. It does not help to mug on your colleagues, young and desperate individuals that are fighting for their place on this overcrowded sky.

It would be just great to get the free training, TR, get pay for work from day 1, but this is not reality and bigger forces are involved than you try to make them…
Happy landings

[sascha410]

@ thebigd
Discussion on what is ok to pay for and what is not is useless.

Should the training be free of charge, should we pay just for initial training, TR, TR and Line Training, work for free for a while, for ewer….

Things are as they are now. That is name of the game, take it or leave it…

In my case I started back in 2001 than stop – no founds. 2004 PPL than ATPL modular, then in 2006 FAA CPL with Instructor ratings and year of instructing followed by JAA CPL. In 2008 I paid my first TR with good T&C unfortunately company lost its contract after 10mdr. In 2011 another TR on my account with great T&C. Both times TR was pre requirement to get the job and I had Letter of Intend in return. Unfortunately company ceased their operation after 14 month, so out of work again. In panic (as I started quiet late in my life) bought third TR with hope only and hope only. It was waste…
Now flying on old turboprop with not so good T&C compare with previous jobs but still ok for the place where I am and still flying.
Now you judge…
Will I pay? No I will not! But I do understand people who do that.

By the way, every single dolar was my own hardly earned.

[TheBigD]

You paid for 3 type ratings? How much did that cost you? Honestly, looking back, do you think you would have been better off working as a CFI with more money in your savings account or paying for the 3 type ratings? I'd just like to hear your honest opinion.

[gear up job]

You can talk the talk lad but at the end of the day ain't nobody gona have self pity on you here!

Weither you paid for the 3 TR with your own money or lottery money that's for you to keep! Bottom line is it appeared you wanted the easy way but it costed you more and it will continue to.

Like what other members said, you would have been better off gaining valuable experience and building your hours through GA or instructing (BUT do not instruct because you want to build hrs). Instruct because you want to pass valuable knowledge and for your students to better than you.

My take is you either put up with what you are currently doing or stop and become a politician!

[sascha410]

@thebigD
I paid 3 TR 37000EUR, 11+20+16K. As I went modular way at the end of the day whole that I spend on flying was exactly the same as an expensive integral training in EU. Mind it here including all FAA instructor ratings as well and whole training on ME.

Looking back, definitely it was worth it, and it was not that expensive as it might sounds. Both turboprop TR paid back quickly as the jobs ware well paid. So even the company closed down rather relatively soon after I join them no money was lost. Contrary on the second occasion I even earned enough to pay for the third TR.
As I said before (because of my age) the third TR was act of panic and gambling which I lost so that one you can call a stupid move but from my perspective at that time it was worth it and I was wrong. But you never know.
Working as an instructor I could not afford on a long run as the salary was just enough to survive if even so.
At the end of the day I do not regret any of it and will do it all over again apart from last TR.

@gear up
You can everything read it as you want to and live happily with it. Doing so you are running the danger of missing the point. You certainly did it here.
Pity?! Whay? During the whole these years I had a nice life and thoroughly enjoyed it a long the way.
“Bottom line is it appeared you wanted the easy way but it costed you more and it will continue to.“
As you can see it above, I got it easy way and it did not cost me more than only F ATPL if you did it by any chance at Roskilde. But the way to get here was good and enjoyable. I did what I wanted to do and I gain life long experience in many ways.
“you would have been better off gaining valuable experience and building your hours through GA or instructing „
Ones again, I like flying for the sake of it. I prefer smaller aircraft then the big ones, I prefer hands on flying to the operation of the airliner, I prefer GA to airline flying. According to my preference I was also applying but now days we cannot pick and chose the jobs as they are not many around.
All in all I would not be better off with your good advice…

And back to where all this started, my point still remains. No reason to mug on your colleagues or might be there is a bit but I am positive than all those people at the end of the day became experienced and capable aviators.
In my point of view if we want to change something about p2f the pressure should be placed at the regulatory authorities as they can stop this in a blink of an eye.
Indonesia did it by enforcing 250hrs on type, USA raised experience entrance level for the right seat, New Zeeland is fining company that takes money for work… I am just a driver, and do not know how, but I know that it can easily be done if there is a will to do it and stop this shameful tendency of paying to work…

[aircupidon]

Eagle jet has started a 500h line training on NG based in asia....
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500:E
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?

[captjns]

Eagle jet has started a 500h line training on NG based in asia....
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500:E
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?

Genade!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Consol]

Keep your money. They are meant to pay you to fly. Carry on like this will finally destroy the profession you are trying to enter.

[smiling monkey]

Eagle jet has started a 500h line training on NG based in asia....
Is it Lion air?

Not unless the Lion gets a dispensation form the 250 hour on type rule from the DGCA.

[latetonite]

Whoever goes down this path buying Type Ratings and IOE, and ends up with no job, probably doesn't deserve better.

[captjns]

Latetonite writes.... Whoever goes down this path buying Type Ratings and IOE, and ends up with no job, probably doesn't deserve better.

Only if these miscreants were forced to wear a scarlet P2Fer on their shirts so they can be readily identified when interviewing at their next carrier, then promptly shown to the exit:*

[el_capitano]

The industry is going from Bad to Worse to Worst

I dont know why this thread is under Indonesian P2F for low timer is back as there has been no confirmation of which country in Asia the training is to take place.

Another question is how does a company like EJ which is based in the USA offer a flying program in Asia to be paid in Euros. Someone is making some big dollars for their own back pocket.

How did the aviation industry get to a point where an airline would accept the F/O to work for no pay and the F/O pay for the Capt salary. And for the airlines that would engage in such a deal, you would need to question the companies integrity/standards/safety that it has, and is such a company in the business of being an Airline.

Pilots are accepting working conditions worse than many 3rd world prostitutes, they are working for nothing and paying for the privilege to do so. It has to STOP

[jetjockey696]

there is a agent in INDIA used to be associated with MR KUSH.. offering B777 first officer porgram.. hahahaha.. now that scary.

B737NG.. that EJ offering could end up in Turkey.. some where.. you know american.,.Geography is not there strong point.. is everything besides america..
:p

SCOOT is pretty bad it self... bank guarantor and pay 50% for a over priced b777 typerating.

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[Aegean100]

I am not sure if I get the point here. If Lion Air has the 250hrs on type restriction to join, then what is the point in joining a p2f scheme for line training?
Surely if anyone has at least 250hrs on type, I would expect a direct entry similar scheme in order to join the airline?

[lingdee]

Eagle jet has started a 500h line training on NG based in asia....
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500:E
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?

Price has now gone up to €79,000 for 300 hour line training .

Slots for line training is getting lesser and lesser while flying schools are pumping new graduates like nobody business.

Supply and Demand and as usual, just need to continue telling the world there are huge shortage of pilots and high demand for them, flying schools are laughing all the way to the bank

[Aegean100]

@ lingdee, where did you get the pricing info from??

[jetjockey696]

dont forget ASIA includes Bangladesh etc.. not just indonesia, malaysia or thailand.