little stuck on this one

[mogga04]

for my cpl training my instructor has asked me to list all the considerations for a flight from ymen to tassy, and from ymen to king island....
I'm taking a full load of pax in a baron
I know of the restrictions to flights over water but apparently i missing alot of things, he told me to think more commercially

PLEASE HELP:sad:

[falconx]

Lifejacket?

[glekichi]

Got an international AOC?

[Centaurus]

for my cpl training my instructor has asked me to list all the considerations

As you are undergoing CPL Training Your instructor should be teaching you all the considerations required of the task. By teaching rather than making you fumble and stumble, you will then be able to discuss each consideration with him. Maybe the instructor is short on knowledge himself:ok:

he told me to think more commercially

Same instructor problem all over again. Sounds like he is too lazy to teach you. You are paying him a lot of money to teach you how to "think more commercially" How can you be expected to be an expert on commercial matters when he hasn't taught you in the first place?:ugh:

[jas24zzk]

Hmm,
sounds like you have the regulatory stuff covered...

Bit hard without more info, which you surely would have been given.

Thinking commercially, I would be looking at fuel management, both in-flight and at total trip planning.

I.e How can you run the numbers to ensure any fuel purchased is at the cheapest possible price.
What are the landing fee's at any given refuel stop etc, and how will that impact the commercial considerations.


For example, on birdsville race weekend, many people head to Leigh Creek on the return journey. The cost of fuel in birdsville is such that it is cheaper to stop at Tibooburra fill, and hopefully only need a splash at birsdville.

Given the info you provided, that's my best guess.

[Homesick-Angel]

Think of a book/guide/document you have to look at before your navs and in there you will find specific procedures to cross bass strait...

Still stuck? I can't give much more than that without actually saying it.

Are you IFR or VFR?

Can you carry the pax at night?

Duty/flight times.?


I disagree Centaurus.. If the student does the research (which he/she is in part doing by asking here) they'll find their own way to the information, and learn how to find info for themselves. This builds more confidence than any other method.. Spoon feeding everything to a student does absolutely nothing for them, and can leave them high and dry come test time.

[VH-XXX]

Got an international AOC?

You should be able to answer that one for us glekichi, did you have an international AOC when you flew your Chieftain from NZ to near the Antarctic on behalf of the Japanese Government when you were searching for the Sea Shepard's Ady Gill, Bob Barker and the Steve Irwin????

[training wheels]

Do the weight and balance and see if you can take a full load of pax with the fuel required for the flight. If not, then determine how much fuel you can take with full pax, to an intermediate refueling stop, keeping the aircraft within the CofG envelope. Thinking commercially, you off load cargo first, then fuel, and finally pax, whilst ensuring you're within the CofG envelope during all phases of the flight.

[pohm1]

he told me to think more commercially

He probably means overload the aircraft, disregard engine/performance limitations, ignore last light and FDLs, don't worry about the dodgy comm boxes and only log half of the flight time on the MR!

P1

[777AV8R]

As you are undergoing CPL Training Your instructor should be teaching you all the considerations required of the task. By teaching rather than making you fumble and stumble, you will then be able to discuss each consideration with him. Maybe the instructor is short on knowledge himself


Centaurus is absolutely correct on this one. Its up to the Instructor (TRI) to instruct. How are you supposed to know anything, if you aren't given the information? Sometimes Instructors use this technique because they:

a) Have no clue
b) Know the answer and use the question to be-little the student and try to make themselves look good. (the opposite is true)

Any instructor wishing to gain the respect of his/her student and in the end, become busier than the rest of the cadré, is to learn technique, get into the books him/herself and impart the information to the students.

As a career TRI/TRE on heavy iron, I can assure you that this works. I don't know who is more tired at the end of the day of flying....Me from talking and instructing or my student from listening and HE/SHE ASKING ME QUESTIONS.......and...I'm a busy boy.

Cheers....find another instructor if this keeps up. Tell the instructor right off that you want to be taught, not question'ed to death.

Safe flying.......

[outnabout]

In a baron, so I woulda thought IFR vs VFR & last light would be academic. Guess it comes down to cheapest fuel, minimum waiting time?

[Aussie Bob]

Mogga 04, let's see, tell your piss poor instructor the following is the general GA rule:

Despite Aussies being a fat bunch, all your pax will be 77 kg or under. You will tell some to suck in their guts and put them down as 60. Given the propensity of "more is less" that most folk adhere to (never any room in them overhead lockers) you will stuff their baggage anywhere it fits just to get it out of sight (baggage, what baggage). Following this you will fudge the paperwork so everything tallies.

You will then top off the tanks with "just a little bit more" and rely on the Barons HP and the cool morning air to get you out of YMEN.

When you arrive at YKII you will park right smack bang in the way of everyone, (it's just a remote strip right?) and you will hope the tail stays off the ground. Finally after unloading all your passengers you will retire for the night at the pub where your tales of bravado will go down well with the locals.

With a hangover that is furrowing your brow you will repeat same the following day, allowing a little extra room (under the seats perhaps?) for all that cheese and beef the punters have purchased. This time the YKII winds will assist with the take off figures.

Don't worry about the life jackets, you got two engines right?

Enjoy!

[Ascend Charlie]

Make sure one of the passengers is female and that she has a map of Tasmania.

[framer]

If the instructor said that they wanted you to come up with more information by yourself but will take you through it next time you're together then I think it's a fine instructing technique. If they just fobbed you off and were trying to make themselves look good then obviously it's not.
I don't know what the instructor is after but if you can answer these questions you should be on the way I reckon;
What is the minimum weather I can depart with?
What is the minimum weather forecast at destination I can depart with?
What are my alternate requirements and options available?
Does the Baron have instruments that enable approaches to all the runways?
What will I do if I lose an engine on departure/ in the cruise/ on approach.
How much fuel will I need for different weather situations? ( ie what's the min I will need and what's the max I can take?)
Will I have to limit bags in order to carry enough fuel?
Shall I contact the pax in advance and give them a baggage limit?
How will icing effect this flight? ( what do I do in icing conditions?)
How do I file my flight plan?
What are the loss of comms procedures?
Is there any airspace/ airfields nearby that I might want to be aware of?
What is my PNR nil wind and how do I recalculate that quickly based on my ground speed ?
Is there PAL at destination or alternate that I need to familiarise myself with?

I don't know if that's the sort of thing your instructor is after but if you can answer all those questions off the bat you've obviously planned the flight.

[Josh Cox]

Remote area ?.

[glekichi]

Didn't need one back then VH-XXX, when we were working for a private company looking for an unknown vessel, because it was before the the bureaucrats bowed down to the green movement and changed their interpretation of the law.

[Wally Mk2]

'mogga' Assuming this flight is a paper one & it's a single flight to KI which is Tassy anyway then "framer's" very informative post has mentioned a plan of things to check along the lines of safety, not commercialism.
The key word here for all out there is Commercial, that & safety are hard to align in the real world of aviation at GA level. There's been many a plane end in tragedy when these two words get tangled up.
"Aussie Bob's" post although has a lot of tongue in cheek content is sadly enough all too true in some ways.
As has been mentioned here on both sides of the fence yr instructor hopefully has good intentions to bring to yr attention one way or another the traps associated with real world charter, not what's just in the Reg's

My advice is to cover ALL you can possibly think of with help from other sources (such as these posts), you'll soon figure out latter on in yr career what's important & what's not.

Wmk2

[megle2]

In all that advice above did anybody mention the Ops Manual
Could be worth a read for company policy

[Homesick-Angel]

After reading some of these posts, I've totally changed my mind.

Best to spoon feed every student, give them every answer, tell them where it look for every single question.... Bugger it, while your at it, give them the eons of notes you made for your own CPL and instructor rating, and save him the time.. It's gonna be far better for the student in the long run to have absolutely no idea about a thing except for what their "lazy" instructor told them.....

Regardless of whether or not their instructor learnt exactly the same way....:ugh:

no wonder so many instructors get a bad name for themselves... Most have no idea how to teach

[Wally Mk2]

"HA" as much as I can understand yr angst here we ALL started out knowing zip about flying, we had to learn everything from scratch. How it's done as well as all the traps along the way whether that be reading the rules/reg's attending classes etc or asking fellow aviators whom went the same path before us or simply finding out by other means, PPRuNe being just another avenue.
I'd like a dollar for every question I have asked of many a pilot over the years to fill my experience tool chest so I can draw on it from time to time for the right tool.
I'm still learning after 33 yrs driving planes & if I get some info from these pages either from accidentally reading it or asking someone here then I ain't too proud to say so:ok:

Each to their own I say & good on the guy for simply asking.
Remember everyone there are NO dumb questions when it comes to aviation especially when your airborne!:-)

Wmk2

[The Green Goblin]

My considerations for this flight in the trusty old baron first would be:

1. Fuel required (IFR, VFR stuff)

Then

2. The payload available = xxx

From there I'd be looking at:

3. Take off alternate (engine failure after takeoff, can't return to land at departure aerodrome).

4. Then ETP, PNR and single engine PNR.

5. I'd also be looking at an enroute alternate for a bolt hole.

6. Then I'd be considering life rafts (400nm limit) life jackets, survival kit.

7. Financial stuff like landing fees is generally handled by the boss, after all they tasked you with the flight. You generally only have to consider the operational stuff. You can ask if they have a preference where you get fuel. Some places are cheaper etc etc.

8. Get an updated wx report 60 mins to your departure time and enjoy the flight!

[scroogee]

Way back to the original post: a common 'error' for CPL's under training we had was for them to plan and fly a route that was pilot friendly rather than commercially efficent- classic example was to get airborne from the uncontrolled home field then track away from the neighbouring controlled field to go around it's boundaries- what they had always done to reduce workload etc. Commercially it was better to get the atis on the ground, get airborne, change frequencies, get a clearance and go direct- higher pilot workload but far more efficent from the operations side of things.

[compressor stall]

How will u flightplan home in the morning after the overnight with no 3G / Internet?

[Aussie Bob]

Given that this is the first and only post of Mogga04 and given that he hasn't bothered responding to any of this input, one begins to wonder if he is even still interested ...

[Wally Mk2]

'A Bob' I was thinking the same thing but it matters none really whether the thread poster will return he has at least sown the seed for some to ponder over if they are at that stage of flying.

All these threads that get started & usually fizzle out provoke thought & can only be a good thing, that's how we learn, we ask, we inquire & we store little bits of info deep down inside our own CPU for another time:-)

It is said the art of flying is based on one thing, the ability to learn:ok:


Wmk2

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I'm taking a full load of pax in a baron

??

BE55 (B, C, D or E model) or BE58 ?

Could make a BIG difference to the conduct of that flight.

Dr :8

[framer]

Too true FTDK, the 58 is pretty capable. I remember taking four doctors with bags and dropping them at different communities and then reversing the loop at the end of the day and picking them all up and taking them back to Kathrine without uplifting any fuel. If I remember correctly they were limited to basically a laptop and their lunch in order to fit enough fuel on though.