Hats off to the RPG!

[kick the tires]

I'm no fan of MOL but to the RPG, my admiration!

Well done all!

Pilots wear 'union' logo in defiance of Ryanair bosses - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pilots-wear-union-logo-in-defiance-of-ryanair-bosses-8641413.html)

[EpsilonVaz]

Not a Ryanair pilot, but great to see a show of solidarity, hang in there!

To above poster, BALPA don't publish member names, so why should the RPG? Also, wearing a union logo is completely different to wearing a competitors logo. Frankly, you sound like the perfect Ryanair employee in the eyes of their management! Looks like their recruitment strategy is working well!

[SID PLATE]

Finger Flyer..
So the RPG is pathetic ?
One day, if and when you grow up, you might come to realise that pilots with attitudes like yours are the the reason that terms and conditions in RYR are as they are now, and getting worse.
The amoral management style in RYR is having a knock on effect in the industry as a whole.
Head in the sand arse in the air fence sitters like yourself will never change anything. People who care, and are prepared to act, just might.
You say you have a free RYR lanyard. ... So congratulations are in order for attending the roadshow four months ago... Did you by chance filter out the useful information from the propaganda and self congratulatory rhetoric?

[dannyalliga]

In my base there are plenty of lanyards around people's necks and most of my colleagues have participated in the ballots so far.
I don't know about overall statistics but over here it's well above 50%.
Pathetic are the conditions we are forced to work under, not the RPG.
By the way, before the likes of finger flier start the usual "you knew the T & C when you sighed and if you don't like it then leave" , let me stress that people are free to go as well as they are free to stay and fight and if you don't like it then you can leave.

[Aldente]

Taken from the thread "Is Ryanair REALLY that bad to work for?"

FingerFlyer
Thanks for rephrasing. If they offered me sick and holiday pay, obviously I would take it, I don't need it therefore it doesn't bother me that I don't get it. I'm not greedy so I don't want it

I love your optimism!

[mini-jumbo]

FingerFlyer - are you actually a professional pilot? It states in your profile that you are, but with comments like yours....I do wonder..

I am a professional pilot, and I do class what I do as work. If you are indeed a professional, that comment alone make me wish I never have to have the displeasure of sharing a flight deck with you.

Whether or not you work for Ryanair - if you are in this industry, you will, one day, in some way, be affected by MOL's enterprise. He sets the bar low, and all other operators bean-counters will aspire to the same lows to maximize profits.

Yes, T's & C's in every industry are declining, but is that a justifiable reason to roll over and take it? Both organisations you list have employees that at the very least benefit from things like sick leave and aren't expected to suddenly find themselves working in a different store or hospital at the drop of a hat and at their expense.....Unlike the majority of Ryanair pilots.

And just for the record, I don't work for Ryanair, but that doesn't mean I don't support their struggle for recognition and fair terms and conditions.

[Journey Man]

I have a realistic view on life and don't have my head up my bottom, unlike many people on here.

I've largely given up posting here but your obnoxious snipes have provoked incredulity.

You claim to possess a more rounded view of what work is then, denounce flying as some sort of hobby; some sort of easy life. Modern airline flying is tiring, non stop work flow. Seamlessly trying to integrate several groups on your aircraft and the ground, especially short haul, 20 minute turn around flying. Your view of flying as a fun easy day is out dated and smacks of a disenfranchised youngster who hasn't bought his way in somewhere yet. You've clearly never borne the responsibility of command and I doubt you have any commercial operational experience.

[Torque Tonight]

Good Lord! This chap sounds like he's trying to get a fast track into management.

I flew over 800hrs last year consistently delivering safe professional standards in a hazardous and unhealthy environment. Add probably about 400 unpaid hours of turnarounds, flight planning, paperwork; a few hundred more of unpaid standbys. I can tell you - this is work. And yes, I have worked elsewhere including on the minimum wage and in a job where people shoot at me.

You really do sound a bit daft FF.

[Torque Tonight]

FingerFlyer:

I personally don't like to call myself a 'Professional' as I class myself equal to everybody and don't like to look down on people.

Your profile:
Occupation
Professional Pilot

:ok:

[A_Woods]

As one of the many people looking to get their first break while my friends have got theirs I have to say it's good to see somebody standing up to RYR's current practices to try and make it a better place to be for all.

Hopefully the get some success and show the beancounters that there is a little bit more to airlines than a massive bottom line figure

[main_dog]

FingerFlyer writes:I'm not an ideal Ryanair employee, as I'm not a Ryanair employee.


FingerFlyer writes:I have the pleasure of sharing the flight deck with people like you many times, I can never get back on the ground too quickly, luckily RYR are very good at weeding the big headed, silver spoon guys out so most of my colleagues are a joy to sit next to.


So do you work for FR or not? And if you're a contractor isn't it a bit disingenuous to say you don't work for FR?

Regardless, while I understand your love for the job (I love the job as well), never forget it IS a job, and it gets harder- especially as the years wear on and you have kids and the earlies/lates/jetlag start taking their toll. If you are a qualified professional entrusted with a fair amount of responsibility, you should be paid accordingly. However you only earn what you can negotiate, and you can only negotiate what you think you're worth if you believe you're worth something in the first place!

Good luck RYR pilots, I admire your managing to remain professional in that poisonous atmosphere that squalid man creates.

[captjns]

To my former colleagues I've flown with at FR... Job well done:ok:.

Keep up the momentum!

[root]

Poor you Journey Man, I suggest you go out get a real job and find out what work is.

Simple question. Have you ever held or do you hold a command position on a JAR25 or similar aircraft?

Please only answer with yes or no.

[ANCPER]

One word, moron!

[felixthecat]

Dont even rise to the bait, FingerFlyer is obviously a troll.

[dannyalliga]

FF is most probably a management troll or one of those pathetic colleagues who still walk around pretending everything is fine ranting about the times when they were fixing cars in a garage (is it you, you cheap sod?!?!?) and how immensely fortunate they are now that they became company directors who commute on days off while dodging tax and social security all across the EU while trying to escape the tax man....
I would love to fly with you and ruin your enthusiastic mood with some reality checks FF!

[Journey Man]

Finger Flyer,

Ignoring the overall condescending tone of your post, I have a real job.

Do you?

I do not believe you have a commercial licence and definitely do not believe you have commercial ops experience.

[Clandestino]

Guys/gals, use "Find more posts by" to see you are feeding a management troll, possibly even a reincarnation of Leo Hairy Camel.

[AutoBit]

I dont usually comment on these threads, it not really being any of my business, but I do feel moved to make comment on one point made by FingerFlyer

As someone who has been to the frontline in Afghanistan, all be it above it, and been shot at, the idea that you could use this as a reason to slate RY pilots as 'not working' is ridiculous.

I volunteer to do what I do. I would never expect my colleagues in the civilian world to somehow feel that they must work harder and longer, and except poor T+C's out of 'guilt'.

Irrespective of what outfit we work for, we are all aviation professionals, and good luck to RPG if it means maintaining the status and standards of that profession.

[goaround737]

Im all for unions and the good they do. That being said, these people bought their way onto the flight deck, and did so in the full knowledge of what awaited them at Ryanair.

Ryanair have an oppressive regime which is widely known by all in the industry but its an "easy in" for those who wouldn't hack it otherwise. Swings and roundabouts guys, you cant expect sympathy or conversely, big pats on the back regarding your union status.

[Bealzebub]

Fingerflyer,

Forgive me for deviating off the subject slightly, but maths fascinates me.

Exactly 11 months ago to the day, on the 05th July 2012 in this post (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/489593-cae-ryanair-how-long-hear-something-back.html#post7279822) you stated that.... I have recent experience of applying to CAE for the Ryanair cadet programme; so I can share my experience with you.
and that....
I have 200 ish hours,
Then exactly a month later on the 05th August 2012 (10 months ago) you stated in this post (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/492272-ryanair-really-bad-work.html#post7344162) that....
If you read my post, you will see that I'm not a cadet, I was never an 'Ill do 850 hrs guy' infact I expected to do about 500 hrs, my first year I did 840 my second about 800 and this year looks to be on track to be the same.
Again, forgive me asking as I am probably missing something obvious, but how did you go from 200 hours last year, to "840 your first year of (self employment) to 800 your second, and a projection of 800 this year (your third?)" That would only seem plausible if it was now 2014?

[go around flaps15]

So you think Ryanair pilots wouldn't hack it otherwise? You think that you pay for the rating and that you just end up on the flight deck. There are many Pilots who paid for the rating and did not reach the STANDARD REQUIRED. They were dropped like they would be in any other airline.

Funny how many of our guys and girls after spending a couple of years in FR manage to "hack" it elsewhere in places like Emirates,BA, Thomson, Virgin, Norwegian.

[pint'alfempty]

I very rarely comment on this forum but your statement above has moved me to do so.
Despite the public face of RYR, the training department has to be near to or at the top of the tree with regard to standards and professionalism. I'm afraid that your comments betray your ignorance, arrogance and naivety.

[cockney steve]

Oh dear, people.....apart from feedinga very obvious TROLL,- just run the figures for this "lucrative " "cushy" job

Training, to the point you can take Command= Around £150 K......repay it over 10 years and that's around £300K total, with interest.

Put the same resources into a house and it will actually appreciate, even in this recession, at ~3 1/2 % PA.

However, you're now committed to repay 30K a year out of TAX PAID wages

At this point, I'm thinking you're all :mad: mad...but there's more....because the job has restrictions, your amount of flying-time is closed-ended,-you cannot work "overtime " to earn extra and repay that debt quicker....the only way forward is to UP THE HOURLY RATE.
How many times have I read in this Forum , of retired Pilots with 30 thousand or more hours total time? How many ever stopped to think.....
"I paid well over a fiver an hour , just for the right to sit in that seat"

Your investment depreciates from the moment you get your Type-Rating. Overpaid and under-worked? surely a sick joke.

Anyone today, who allows the lure of driving a shiny jet, to overrule the reality of the true (poor) rewards for their efforts, wants their bumps feeling.

No wonder MOL and his ilk are laughing all the way to the bank.
NOTE:- I am not, and have never been, in the Aviation Industry. It IS undoubtedly a ruthless business and budgets are staggering (I just read £80K for a Pilot's seat- and they commonly keep one in stock, "in case":eek: )

Unfortunately, Aircrew have an emotional attachment to flying and current managements exploit this to keep T's and C's depressed.

To restore sanity needs a radical reduction on numbers training and fleet sizes.

When the amount of potential Pax who can actually afford a premium fare, and the number of seats available is almost the same, your conditions will get better.

Whilst there are huge numbers of seats to fill, the only way forward , is to drop the price so more can afford to fill them.

No matter how much you dislike RYR, it's tactics,ethos and HR, IT FILLS SEATS.

YES! there's a bit of fat there and IMO flight-crews deserve a nibble at that.

Perhaps, the suggestion I made many moons ago, is worthy of consideration.

BUY SHARES IN RYR....If a RYR Personnell "union" held them in trust, all members would get a share in the profits.......they'd also get a share in the possibility of the airline falling on hard-times and going TU.....but there you go- rarely do you get the penny AND the toffee!.

[goaround737]

I absolutely stand by what I say Go AroundFlaps 15. And no, im well enough aquatinted with the TR process to know that certain standards must be attained. The point I was attempting to make is that Ryanair provide an “in” for newly qualified pilots and as such forms the majority of their intake. By “hack it” I was referring to the ability of said recruit to get a first job in the current climate.

If you are so sure of the outstanding quality of newly recruited Ryanair pilots (I presume you once counted yourself amongst them?) I would question why they/you felt the need to spend £30k+ on a type rating, when surely the next jet job (emirates, Thomson, Norwegian, as you suggest) with a free TR was just around the corner?

No, you took this job and paid for it because it was an “in”, which is understandable. However, as I mentioned before, you were well aware of what awaited you.

Pint’alfempty- im glad to hear I moved you to comment on the matter, your defence of Ryanair no doubt contributes tothe ‘cut and thrust’ of the debate.

[goaround737]

I agree Depone, that experience is subjective and that you personally may not have realised what Ryanair was all about. That being said, im unsure why you didn't know?? (at the risk of sounding sarcastic which is not my intention, you have regular access to the internet, no?)

I know of 6 individuals who now work for Ryanair with various start dates commencing from roughly 2008/2009 to date. All of these guys without exception knew exactly the conditions that awaited them regarding T+Cs and union status (indeed, these are not stupid people, it would be a foolhardy venture to spend £30k on buying your way into a company if you did not know EXACTLY what £30k was buying you??) Furthermore all of them accepted the, frankly awful verging on opportunistic and exploitative, conditions therein!

These people did so because this afforded them an opportunity at a job when no other job would have been forthcoming! I agree that these people are not bad people or pilots but to whine about conditions when they have purchased the product/outcome in questions, is simply ludicrous.

[MPH]

Not so, me thinks. 1) Is what is offered and promised! 2) Is what really is going on.
You believe and you need but, the two are sometimes very different. Let's hope that a company that employes more than 2500 pilots will sort out their T&C's?:)

[dannyalliga]

goaround737,
when you go for the interview they tell you stories like: 50and over bases to chose from, great contract, fabulous roster etc
Then ,once you are in, you find out that out of the 50 available bases only about 2 or 3 are available to you, that the contract they made you sign is actually full of legal traps for which people are being chased by tax and social security authorities, that the fabulous roster is being given or taken away according to their agenda and much more.
It's a free world and while people are free to join such an outfit it is also very true that they are free to complain and fight it afterwords.

[170to5]

For my part, I have full sympathy for RYR guys. Yeah, they knew what they were getting into, few wanted to get into it, and I'm delighted to see that they're trying to improve their lot. I suspect it could be a great employer if T&C's and pay etc were improved. If the management don't want to (and I always put the disclaimer that the company also has to be financially sound, no point getting a pay rise and losing your job a month later) treat their employees with respect, hell, force them to!

RYR management don't seem to understand, or deal in, reason and morality, so bravo that at least one of their employee groups is growing some teeth!

If you don't like it...damn well do something to improve it!

Best of luck guys!

[TeaTowel]

Its often said that the pilot workforce needs to band together to improve T&Cs. But they need to band together and fight against FR/SSTR/P2F pilots who are the ones destroying T&Cs across the industry.

They are worse than :mad: in a strike.

The funny thing is once they get themselves into BA Emirates or wherever after their stint in the Loco, they come on here complaining theirs T&Cs are getting worse again.

And whos to blame?

Themselves.

Over the last few years I have met many people from outside of aviation who mention they have friends working for FR and that I might aswell hand a CV in there and get a job. I then explain to them that it costs 30000 euro to pass the interview and that by accepting it their pilot friend has not only ****** up his own profession but that the practice of paying for jobs will inevitably seep into other industries too. (We're not the only ones who operate expensive equipment)

End result? The FR pilot loses some friends. :D:D

[goaround737]

I hear you Dannyalliga, but the point im trying (again) to make is why would you believe all that BS??

Despite what you may have been told, the limited choice of bases, the poor contract, the tax issues - are all well known and plastered all over the web, they get ribbed for it in the national press too! Didn't you read into this before you parted with the money? You've made it this far so I cant believe that you're short of grey matter, are you gullible?!

Anyway I digress. Whilst I appreciate and agree that everyone has the right to fight for better T+Cs, my original issue was with the seeking of congratulations when attempting to improve said conditions (check the title of the thread), and sympathy when you find you don't like the particular situation you've bought your way into.

[Leg]

Tea Towel, you have got it spot on there.

I am tired of the people who spout on about attack the
company but not the pilots, well I am sorry to say it
is the pilots who have ruined this once fine industry.

Yes MOL and his cronies are the people who have carried
out the dismantling of the industry, but the pilots are
the ones who allowed it to happen, sounds a simple
statement? Well it is a simple thing which has happened.

I am about to retire from this once fine profession, I have
known many fine people and met many more, but the
youngsters coming in now have a very different view of
what the profession is all about, and that my friends, is
the long and short of it, very hard to change now.

[Facelookbovvered]

Few cadets if any join FR with their eyes closed, its better than P2F and the training is excellent, if you start with the mind set that you can change things from within, then your in the wrong job, if however your mindset is 'get in' get hours' get out then you'll probably enjoy it, the fact that it needn't be that way is irrelevant.

Unless there is a change in the law, then there never will be a union in FR, the whole contractor rational is at the heart of that simple fact, it avoids unions.

A union would push up FR costs, reduce its flexibility and risk strike action, in my view MOL would shut it down before backing down to a union.

He will provide the T&C's that deliver the balance they need between pilot attrition & pilot retention and a rate of attrition is required by the business plan, training is a profit centre, not a cost like most airlines.

The only time things will improve is if they cannot get enough pilots to fly the schedule, hence the over supply in training, having trained pilots "off" their books but available & willing is an insurance policy, its like paying for a whore when you need one, rather than entering a relationship with all the costs,commitments and compromises that go with it.

Some call it exploitation,other's see it as supply & demand, but both parties are willing.

[joe falchetto 64]

@Leg: well I am sorry to say it
is the pilots who have ruined this once fine industry.
Sorry pal, but for me are the old and almost retiring pilots that have ruined this once fine industry...failing completely in the mission of leaving a better world for youngster, paying for this also a little bit of their wage.
By the way, I am a skipper, A 320, over fifty, ex Air Force, more than ten grands flight hours...so I am closer to you then to the young pilots; nevertheless this is what I think.
Regds.

[RAT 5]

Facelook.....

Following that philosophy RYR is merely a training school that will be a revolving door of F/O's. Are you suggesting that the sharp ones will leave? With 350 a/c in the fleet RYR will need 1800 captains. They will be those who stayed for the medium term, at least. Of what calibre will they be?

[Al Murdoch]

I have one question for Goaround737 and Teatowel - if you were 22 with a CPL IR with debts to pay and the only show in town was Ryanair, what course of action would you take?

[McBruce]

The same people tha bitch and whine about RYR pilots not accepting their T&Cs because that's what they signed up for are the same people who bitch about RYR destroying the industry's T&CS and that RYR pilots are doing nothing about it.

we are all entitled to collective bargaining, so get with the times, regardless of how one started out in this industry whether it was bonded TR, paid TR, self sponsored or a daddy's Oxford/CTC route into a big player.

[Facelookbovvered]

Yeah pretty much, i know a fair few skippers at FR and most are based where they live and that's why they stay, once the cockpit doors closed then you could be working for anyone, its just the :mad: on the ground with passengers boarding that are enraged over being fleeced at the gate, the pressure on the cabin crew to sell and get away on time. If your based a long way from where you call home then you head for the exit sign if some one can get you closer to home.

[beernice]

From what I am seeing the RPG is struggling, 22 guys turned up to a RPG organized meeting in STN last month I hear. Previous campaigns have attracted far larger gatherings. I am not hearing any great support for the RPG in STN and In my opinion without STN on board a union cannot succeed. Also while some bases did refuse to sign new base agreements, more bases agreed new base agreements than refused them.
I am only saying this to guys thinking of joining. Do not expect conditions to suddenly improve should you join Ryanair. New Guys are now paying up-to 58% tax in countries such as Spain. ( mainly due to 29% employers contribution ). During the off season ( about 5 months) you can expect about 1500 a month. Can you repay your loan and live on that? Don't say you were not told!

[Journey Man]

if however your mindset is 'get in' get hours' get out then you'll probably enjoy it, the fact that it needn't be that way is irrelevant.
The mindset that is, unfortunately, part of the problem. Where do you 'get out' to once all the other airlines have been forced to adopt the same strategies Ryanair use in order to compete?

It does highlight the self absorbed attitude quite nicely though.

[RAT 5]

Simple question: Firstly, I admit I'm out of it. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

Considering what has happened to the profession, and not laying blame on anyone, would you suggest your son or daughter to follow in your foot-steps and become an airline pilot without the guarantee to join a legacy carrier: and stump up the cash for them to do so?

Not me! But then I've no kids. It's easy. If you also say no; why not and what are you going to do about it?

For everything else in the world I hear we have to leave it better for our children. Why is this not true of our profession?

[TeaTowel]

if you were 22 with a CPL IR with debts to pay and the only show in town was Ryanair, what course of action would you take?

I am 23 fresh out of school (with admittedly minimal debts as I worked while training, while work was to be had)

How about I just not apply to Ryanair? (Cant afford to pass the interview anyway.) Jesus don't people realise thats an option? There are other ways to start paying off debt that don't include destroying current and your own future jobs prospects.

Like Journey Man said: Where do you 'get out' to once all the other airlines have been forced to adopt the same strategies Ryanair use in order to compete?

FR/SSTR/P2F are not creating jobs.

THey are replacing them.

Are these so called professionals so naive to think that by accepting this for their first job, all future jobs will be well paid and secure?

Qatar and BA have already switched to SSTR marketed as "cadetships". They were getting sick of idiots spending their cash at their competitors only to apply to BA and Qatar a few years down the line anyway and expect a free type rating and good salary. All carriers will switch to this model over the next few years. The options for the FR boys will be few and far between in a few years but the damage they are causing will never go away.

I would like to see anyone who's ever done this be boycotted by the rest of their pilot peers.

This thread tried to muster up support for them. Do not do this or you will just be helping them dog your own grave.

[TeaTowel]

Why shouldn't they be shunned?

Like I said in my other post I always tell people who know some FR pilots what the their terms are and the money part of getting the job.

And they lose those friends and the odd girlfriend. Why? Because the FR pilot never mentioned it and they hear it first from me. It reflects quite poorly on someones character. What else are they willing to stoop to in work or out?

No other profession would work alongside these idiots so why should we?

[TeaTowel]

It's the 100 year anniversary of Dublins 1913 lockout. Central to the dispute was the workers' right to unionise.

Those striking tram-drivers and the Dublin Met Police would have united to baton charge FR/SSTR/P2F drivers if they could meet them.:D

[TeaTowel]

horrendous attitude towards his/her colleagues as you seem to.

Sigh. They of course don't have a horrendous attitude to their peers no?

Worse than sc.abs in a strike.

[pudoc]

So you're 23 fresh out of school? What gives you the right to moan about how things used to be, probably before you had a licence?

News flash mate, just by you not joining Ryanair or SSTR you are changing sod all. You alone will not change anything, if RPG are struggling, you have no hope.

FR/SSTR/P2F are not creating jobs.

THey are replacing them.

Slightly confused how to Ryanair aren't creating jobs? Ok they aren't technically employed with Ryanair, but it's still somebody's job to sit in the right seat.

SSTR is not creating jobs? That doesn't even make sense. How does SSTR replace a job? Anyway, It's always been SSTR, just in the past you would have the money deducted from your wage, now you pay up front.


There are other ways to start paying off debt that don't include destroying current and your own future jobs prospects.

You could just tell that to those ex-Ryanair pilots who enjoy life at Thomson, Monarch, Virgin, BA and all the desert airlines.

<Insert your whinge about 'how it used to be' despite the fact you never experienced 'how it used to be'>

I see where the FR blame comes from. But then this is the same as every other industry. My friend, an A&E surgeon saving peoples lives the second they're wheeled off the ambulance, who trained for a lot longer than a pilot does, earns around £28k a year despite being a surgeon for 5 years.

Of course, most of the Ryanair guys will want to leave and go elsewhere, somewhere better perhaps. But when somebody in this thread said when FR pilots want to leave every other airline will be the same.....well then that's said airline's pilots fault! Not FR pilots. Just because FR pilots accepted poor T&Cs at their airline, doesn't mean BA, Virgin etc pilots have to accept it themselves. So your theory, and Journey Man's, is wrong. I'm not saying T&Cs will not get worse or better at other places, but FR pilots cannot take blame for crap happening at BA (for example). BA pilots have their own voices (and union!).

I would like to see anyone who's ever done this be boycotted by the rest of their pilot peers.


This here is the only reason I replied to this thread. This and "scabs". I've seen a lot of your posts. 95% of them are slagging off people with money, very negative and condescending. I agree, it's a shame you need so much money to learn to fly. But so what if somebody worked very hard over their life to earn lots of money to give their child the career they wanted. To be a pilot, perhaps?

Quite an immature attitude for you to have. The same immaturity you were condeming in this (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/514909-your-teenage-pilot-speaking-19-year-old-offered-job-ryanair-2.html#post7846146) post?

But I do hope you keep your bitterness towards SSTR because for as long as you have this chip on your shoulder, I'll never have to share a flight deck with you.

[Leg]

Tea Towel, just give up mate, the lunatics have taken over the asylum :ugh:

Pudoc, you show your inexperience with this statement:

Anyway, It's always been SSTR, just in the past you would have the money deducted from your wage, now you pay up front.

And the rest of your post is just rubbish son.

:=

[goaround737]

I often think that the damage we do to the industry is self fulfilling. The more people we allow to buy their way into, the less people thereare to improve conditions therein. Those that buy their way have proved themselves to be willing to accept the very worse the industry has to offer, in order to further their own interests. These people are surely not the sorts to harbour any real concern for their peers, as they can always jump ship to something better?

Having read with interest the recent comments posted, I am quite sure this is the case. These people seem to have no concept of how they are viewed or the morality of buying a place in the queue ahead of a more skilled candidate. Or at least if they do, they bury it deep down.

I’m appalled with the attitude and assessment of some of my peers in that they truly believe that Ryanair is the only option available to them. This is simply not the case, Ryanair was the easiest option available to them. Piloting is one of the most fiercely competitive industries I know of,and a first job is usually the fruit of years of labour rather than a purchased commodity. In a parallel universe, had these jobs been available through usual means, they would have gone most capable pilots by the well-trodden path of “starting at the bottom and working your way up” But sadly this is not the case any more,due in part to those who are happy to pay and Ryanairs appetite to accept them.

Whilst I would not purport open hostility towards Ryanair aircrew,I will certainly remember them. Many years from now when the financial crisis has passed and the industry is expanding and on the up, I will still remember the tough times. I will also remember those that paid their way into the profession and by their actions, made it that bit worse for the rest of us.

[goaround737]

p.s

Pudoc, the mans right. You need to read what you post beforehand. Better still, get a parent or guardian to check it first.

[top9un]

Tea Towel, you say

No other profession would work alongside these idiots so why should we?

Leg, you say

Tea Towel, just give up mate, the lunatics have taken over the asylum

Both of you are referring to Ryanair pilots, but I presume your hostility is also aimed at Easyjet TRSS cadets and possibly you are also upset about the people who worked in past years building hours working as flying instructors on a breadline wage, sometimes for nothing. Bush Pilots as well?

What about British Airways pilots who allowed APS to be replaced by NAPS and who now work until they are 65 instead of 55 as in previous years.

Thomas Cook pilots taking a paycut? Shouldn't they walk out?

We're all in this together.

[Al Murdoch]

So what would YOU do in their situation Goaround?
I mean I'm just wondering, what is the practical solution for individuals who want to be pilots? I see the options as:
- Ryanair/Easyjet - and run the risk of being "shunned" by some small minded cretin some years down the road.
- Instructing - extremely poor pay and leads nowhere.
- Flybe (if they even recruit anymore) - pay is so pitiful you are effectively paying more for your type rating than at Ryanair.
Aside from a few other lucky breaks that some people have managed to get, these are essentially the options if you want a job on graduation these days.
I'm not saying anything that has happened is right or wrong, but I do think there is a case for offering practical advice to people entering the industry. I don't think pillorying them for making tough choices and succeeding in a very difficult environment is helpful to anyone. You might want to take a look at the cadets coming into Ryanair before you dismiss them as hopeless pilots because they've had to pay for a rating. In the most part they are highly dedicated, focussed individuals who excel at what they do.
Ryanair guys really can't win can they? Do you remember the criticism of them for accepting a non-unionised position? Now that they are trying to get something done, they are a load of whingers that brought it on themselves.
I think you only have to look at this thread to see why the industry is f*cked and it's not because of Ryanair. It is because we, the pilots that is, are collectively stupid. So instead of bitching amongst ourselves (which is what the managers of these outfits want), why don't we all try to work together a little bit? The RPG is a positive step towards that.

[Leg]

Top9 or whatever your silly name is, you prove my point regards lunatics.

Depone... depone! I have been around a long time, since before a pilot paid for anything except their licence. You ask what can these youngsters do, well no one is forcing them to be a Pilot you know! I fly with bright youngsters every day, nearly every one of them has curt words for the type of person who pays their way into a job. These f/o's however are outnumbered by those that think they have a right to be a pilot, do you get it now? Not all youngsters are the same, but no one has a right to be a pilot, if you pay your way in (whichever airline), then you will reap what you sow, simple as that.

[top9un]

Leg

Top9 or whatever your silly name is, you prove my point regards lunatics.

Well if you are seriously suggesting that FR and EZY are allowing lunatics to fly their aircraft I would suggest you air these concerns to the appropriate authority.

As to you being around since before pilots paid for anything, 737 ratings were being sold by British Midland Airways 25 years ago and 757 ratings were also being offered at the same time for about £10 000 by British Airways, I know people who paid for ratings a long time ago and I elect to use my professional discretion not to shun them.

When it comes to "silly names" you don't seem to have a Leg to stand on.

boom boom!

[TeaTowel]

My god your right leg. The lunatics really have taken over the asylum.

The general consensus is that every pilot has to get a job even if it means paying for it.

Its as if people think the aviation industry exists to provide work for pilots. The aviation industry exists to provide a service for passengers and other customers.

A simplified view would be to kick out each SSTR and ex-SSTR and stop hiring them in the future.

Airlines would go bust and many innocent people would lose their job but the industry would contract to a point where it starts expanding again on pax/customer demand alone.

As it stands it propped up and experiencing accelerated growth by people treating it as an amusement park ride.

possibly you are also upset about the people who worked in past years building hours working as flying instructors on a breadline wage, sometimes for nothing. Bush Pilots as well?

I have no problem with people bush flying as their providing a necessary service in generally poorer regions of the world. My hats off to them. People building hours as instructors I have a problem with, it just adds to the circlejerk of flight schools training instructors to train pilots to be instructors.....creating jobs out of thin air....bubbles burst.

Yes Management are to blame but so are to sc.ab workers. We need to unite against them. Or would ye prefer if I said ye? As I'm 23 and have no right to say anything.

Edit: I also love how they're trying to muster up support by spinning the safety aspects of the current conditions, but then come back at the rest of us saying its one of the safest airline in the world! Which it is too.:D

Ye aren't digging your own graves with shovels anymore lads, you are using those massive bucket-wheel coal excavators from Germany.

[top9un]

Thanks for the honest contribution, I know that flying instructors who just did it to build hours to qualify for a CPL in years past caused great resentment both with their colleagues who were in it for the long term and also with their students, some of whom were literally "taken for a ride".

It would appear that the same logic now applies within the airline world where self sponsoring of training allows the airlines to employ an oversupply of pilots and the normal laws of supply and demand ensure that Terms and Conditions decline at the expense of all pilots.

25 years ago, it was harder to borrow the daft sums of money that cadets are now equipping themselves with and therefore the supply of self sponsored cadets was much lower than today and the airlines had to take up the slack by sponsoring and type rating suitable applicants, but even in those days people were willing to take the risk and self sponsor their own training even if a job was not guaranteed. These were the ones who provided proof of concept to the beancounters and paved the way for the mass marketing of the right hand seat that we see today.

It has been going on a lot longer than most people realize.

[Al Murdoch]

Teatowel - I really can't figure out your position here. You're not even IN the industry from what you say. How have you possibly had time or chance to become so jaded?
If you're so happy making a point by not getting an interview with Ryanair, great, good luck. But it isn't going to change anything. This has all been coming for donkeys years. Even the best schemes like BA's used to require you to pay them back for your training in some way or form. What's happening today isn't that different. It's just a question of risk and who is taking it. Nobody ever moaned about that though because unions exist to serve senior guys and the senior guys were happy with their lot. Now that they chickens are coming home to roost, after the people who could have acted failed to, the blame guns are out for everybody but themselves.
Accept that we are collectively responsible and move on...

[main_dog]

BA are in deep and long-term financial woes caused directly by their laudable terms and conditions

They joined from 'nicer' airlines that went bust because they couldn't afford to pay maintain terms and conditions for their staff and still make a profit

Incredible how many pilots actually believe this... as a category we really are our own worst enemies. :ugh:

Depone, in most airlines, even legacy carriers, the cost of flight crew is only a few percentage points of total costs. Some of the most successful airlines also have some of the highest paid pilots. You have fallen for your CEO's line of BS!

[Depone]

Yes, the black hole in BA's pension fund is well known. And it is going to get worse before the recent changes start to have even a slight effect.

No, I don't believe anyone's rhetoric regarding costs. But the facts as to % spent by the locos vs legacy on staff costs are readily available. I did not say staff are the biggest cost for airlines but given the scale of FR's operation, it is not rocket science to link €400m profit with extremely low staff costs.

The way you people are talking verges on elitism. As though piloting is just for you and Nigel. I don't advocate in favour of SSTR and other cost-cutting measures but they are here to stay.

To suggest that all Ryanair pilots are held out as pariahs is nonsense and reveals your complete ignorance of the makeup of its workforce. You can pat yourselves on the back and laugh at others but this simply reflects badly on you, not me.

[goaround737]

My, My, haven’t we all been busy today.

You know, I could probably accept the lacklustre “it was the only thing going” excuse that Depone and Al Murdoch give, had it been accompanied by a “and yes I know that we’re :mad: over the industry by doing it, but I’ve never met you so I’m not that bothered”I could live with that. But it never is!

These people are doing mental backflips to avoid the admission that buying their way onto the flight deck contributes to the degradation of piloting!

Al Murdoch – you see the options as being “Ryanair/Easyjet,instructing or Flybe” What planet are you on?!? There are 190 countries in the world and a couple of hundred thousand companies that employ pilots. I’ve got to hand it to you, your job hunt must have taken all of an afternoon! And you still fail to grasp that Instructing isn’t the route it once was precisely because of the actions of Ryanair and the likes!! Why hire an instructor with 1500hours when you can have a 200 hour chap who will foot the bill himself! I could scream, I really could!!

And to suggest that you and I share some sort of “collective responsibility” for the way things are, is maddening. I’ve had no part in this! Believe it or not I’m comfortable enough that I could have thrown money at it and bought my way into a job, but I didnt!I did the hard yards for 2 years before it paid off!

And another thing, if it means being labelled a “Small Minded Cretin” for taking a stand against you and saying that I find your way into this profession distasteful, and further, that I won’t reward you for it later on down the line – then so be it! Im happy to be labelled as such!



Small Minded Cretin (And Proud)

[16024]

Easy, now Ladies.
Remembering the title of the thread, I can't imagine how the RPG getting themselves organised would fail to make the industry as a whole a bit better.
If we can't agree on that then I do worry.
MOL must be laughing every time one of his trolls read this.

[TeaTowel]

Accept that we are collectively responsible and move on...


Many of the pilot workforce need to accept responsibility which apparently isn't happening here.

But we should not just move on!

If we do what happens next? Pay for training for upgrade(with the result that many of these poor indebted loco pilots won't afford it, and only the rich become captains)

Pay for all subsequent ratings at airlines they aim for in the desert?

Do people want this nonsense spread into other industries? There is an over-supply of workers in many industries.
Do you want you or your children taught by the teacher who paid a school for their first job out of college?
Operated on by the richest intern surgeon?
Have your car serviced by the guy who paid the garage for a job?
Your medicine quality tested by the microbiologist who stumped up the cash to a pharmaceutical company?
Airspace defended by the guy paying for a Eurofighter rating?
Fight along side someone whose parents paid for their SA80 rating?
**** no you wouldn't!!

Its our responsibility to stop it and remove them.

Type "paying for a job" into Google. The first result is: "Should I Pay For Job Listings?" and paying for work in the aviation sense isn't even found.

Other professionals even think paying 30 dollars to advertise their CV is questionable, not to mind paying 30k to pass an interview.

Supporting these people is a loss for everyone.

[TeaTowel]

I can't imagine how the RPG getting themselves organised would fail to make the industry as a whole a bit better.

Because they lowered themselves by paying to sneak under the fence to get in, and now they're trying to stand up and be heard. Anyone who took the hard graft and climbed or is currently climbing the fence should not support them.

[main_dog]

top9un, not sure if you're agreeing with me or not? Your two bust companies + Malev however are a case in point: none of these airlines were known in the industry for over-generous T&Cs, and yet they folded. Why? For the same reasons all airlines fold, incompetent management decisions in the cut-throat high-overhead environment that is aviation.

Some of the airlines that treat their pilots best (LH and CX come to mind, as does Southwest in the US) are also some of the most consistently profitable, because they are (relatively) well managed.

In my carrier (legacy southeast Asian major, virtually always profitable) pilots are paid fairly well. And yet TOTAL staff costs (ie all staff included, flight/cabin crew and ground staff) average around 15-16% of our airline's costs, only just ahead of landing/parking/route expenses, and well under half of fuel costs (over 40% of total costs!). As you can see, a simple bungling of a fuel hedging decision might have more effect on the bottom line than our pay. And while I don't know the exact portion of that 16% staff costs that goes to our pilots, considering we have something like ten or twelve thousand flight attendants and over fifteen thousand ground staff I would be surprised if it were much more than 4% of total costs. This in an airline well-known for above-average pilot salaries.

Of course management will bang on about how they can't possibly afford to pay you any more, it's their job to keep costs in check; as a matter of fact their bonuses are often directly proportional to how well they keep your pay under control! Don't fall for their spiel: in my previous airline, we once calculated that even if all the pilots had gone to work absolutely for free, they still would have made a loss.:}

Once again, good luck to the FR pilots in their fight for better T&Cs: you are only worth what you can negotiate.

[homerj]

Tea towel you are what's known in the business as a gimp.stop talking crap about what , given you're very minimal experience , you have a lot to learn about.

[16024]

Teatowel.
I coud help you to drag the thread down by responding that I know lots of good people in RYR who did not buy themselves in. Some who did 5 years or more porridge when a flying instructor job was the only way to stay in the industry. Some who worked their way up the hard way, only to be made redundant. Even some who have committed themselves to a career there, and have fought their way into training positions (and the training is highly regarded throughout the industry).
Instead, I take the positive, forward looking stance and re-qoute your quote.

I can't imagine how the RPG getting themselves organised would fail to make the industry as a whole a bit better.

[Gnirren]

Oh wow another hamsterwheel churning about TRSS.

Put it this way then: You are 99% of you self-serving destroyers of this fine industry. Why? Because you paid for training. Any training. Did you fund your ATPL? CPL? Did you purchase an MCC-course? Sim-time preparing for an interview?

Ah, so you went and purchased an advantage that your poor fellow pilot could not buy for himself. Tut tut... poor form old chap.

So, let's be rid of the hypocrisy once and for all by not splitting hairs and climbing up ivory towers, high horses and what-not.

Unless you came from a. military training having not spent one red cent/penny or b. an airline's ab-initio program a la lufthansa or KLM having spent an equal amount of zero monies, YOU too are part of the infamous pay-to-fly crowd.

You can try and wriggle out of it sure enough, but to me it's all or nothing baby. You either whore, or you do not. And before you go all huff and puff, yes of course I place myself squarely in the "sold out my profession by purchasing an ATPL"-misfits. I'm fine with it. Pragmatism, you dig. One does what one can to get by and all the rest of it.

Lastly, ponder this; if the pay for training door truly didn't exist. If flight schools were closed institutions and all you had were military programs and zero-hours cadet programs with 8 slots and 56000 applicants, how many of you wining about TRSS b*tches would have a job right NOW? I see many camels and many very small needle-eyes.

Pipe down, "right stuff"...