How NOT to become a Police pilot! [Archive]

Arkroyal

1st May 2002, 12:02

OK I do know a little more about this than I'm letting on, but need to tread carefully if I'm ever to be able to return to the unit for a cup of tea (or speed locally on my motorbike!).:D

Suffice to say that he got off on a technicality, and IMHO was very lucky to have the judge he had on the day. The charge was 'attempting to obtain pecuniary advantage by deception'. To have a case against him, it would need to be proven that he thought he would get the job and be paid.

His argument was that he was bound to be found out before payday, therefore no case. The judge agreed.

In order to give him enough rope to hang himself with, the ASU (who were by now suspicious, due to the complexity of elaborate excuses behind the lack of documents) would have had to let him start work, with all the obvious risks involved, safety, insurance etc.

They could not allow that, so no trial. The charge lies on the file, for a future case if necessary.

This means he has got away with the charge brought.

But, CAA, are you there? He has almost certainly committed offences which you could bring against him. You are keen enough to put hapless PPLs, who make mistakes, in court, so what about this Walter Mitty, who is now free to carry on with his deceptions.

That's the story as I understand it. Flying Lawyer, who was to defend this reptile may be able to add more, and/or correct my facts.

Nopax,thanx

1st May 2002, 12:04

He's a mason!!!!!!!!!!!!!

greatorex

1st May 2002, 12:33

He sounds like a very lucky man to me!

One thing that puzzles me - and I know nothing about Police ASU's or Helicopters - but surely, 5 hours line training in a 135 must be construed as gaining a pecuniary advantage?

The sad thing is that as Arkroyal so rightly said; that in the current society, someone is going to get the blame for this one and it sure as hell won't be the guy in the wrong! :(

Alty Meter

1st May 2002, 14:42

Newspaper report today
POLICE LET AMATEUR FLY THE FORCE HELICOPTER

A businessman with a fascination for police aviation managed to convince officers to let him fly the force helicopter.

Amateur pilot Mark Lamb, 30, impressed police airmen with boasts that he was a highly skilled commercial pilot, qualified to fly helicopters.

He was allowed to undertake training missions and was informally offered freelance flying work with the East Midlands Air Support Unit.

In reality, he had three years air experience and a private pilot's licence, Leicester Crown Court was told.

Although criminal proceedings were dropped, he may now be facing an investigation by the Civil Aviation Authority.

The court heard that Lamb, who flew on five force training missions over Leicester, managed to pass a stringent test with ease. There was no suggestion he had flown dangerously.

Lamb's barrister said his client had only wanted to experience training in a force helicopter. When he was unexpectedly offered freelance work on an informal basis, Lamb feigned illness, claiming he had cancer, to avoid taking up the opportunity and to conceal his lack of qualifications.

Barrister Tudor Owen defending, said Lamb could not actually have been accepted to work with the police ASU without evidence of advanced qualifications.
Lamb's private pilot's licence covered him to fly that class of machine solo, but the police would have required a more advanced standard.

Lamb, of North Kilworth, Leicestershire, denied attempting to obtain a pecuniary advantage by falsely representing he had an Air Transport Pilot's Licence between July and September last year.

The prosecution chose not to proceed with the charge after the judge agreed with defence counsel that Lamb's actions did not constitute a criminal offence.

Five similar offences were quashed, but Lamb agreed to pay £1,750 to cover the cost of his flights with the ASU.

Recorder Calder Jose said Lamb had been living in "a Walter Mitty world" and made up a complete fiction about himself. But that did not mean he had broken the law.

He added: "It's clear that never at any time did this man fly dangerously or even fly without the provision of his own licence. He obtained the fun of flying in a police helicopter over the sky of Leicester on five occasions. I imagine quite a lot of people would pay a lot of money for that kind of experience."

After the hearing, Lamb, who runs an information technology business, said his fascination for police aviation had got the better of him and he regretted his actions.

Remember the usual warnings about media reporting of aviation matters.

Check 6

1st May 2002, 14:54

Don't British law enforcement agencies do extensive "background checks" on their civilian pilots? In the U.S., this prospective applicant would be intestigated extensively, similar to a MOD security clearance vetting.

Typically in California, approximately 40 man-hours would be spent on the investigation. This would include criminal records checks (through fingerprints), FAA records check, confirming education, training, credit check, talking in person to former employers, teachers, and references, PLUS additional references developed independently during the investigation.

Talking about "egg on their face" if the above accounts are accurate!

Very sad indeed.
:o :o :o

Arkroyal

1st May 2002, 16:04

Check 6

Ah... but the above account is not accurate, as neither was the piece shown last night on local TV which showed Lamb as the wronged party, almost forced against his will to fly the helo.

By my understanding, he feigned cancer to avoid having to produce his licence to the unit chief pilot, and to cover his deception. The deception included that he had been an airline pilot, that he owned his own EC120. This guy was interviewed for a full time job with the unit, and at no time volunteered the information that he was not qualified for it until cornered like a rat.

crab

1st May 2002, 16:13

If he was interviewed for a job I would have thought that his licence would have been checked at the same time!If it was not checked that is still of course no excuse for his deception and inexcusable conduct.

pressurize

1st May 2002, 16:26

Crab, agree with you. You would have thought that a professional unit like this could never let it happen.

I know that doesn't excuse the guy, but it could be that he got himself in too deep and couldn't get out. The cancer thing us unfortunate (if it's true) but the Chief Pilot should never have been so easily misled.

Arkroyal

1st May 2002, 16:28

crab

Agreed, but this guy was a conman, remember. He (according to a source) produced photocopies at the time because he'd left the originals in his helicopter, which his mate had taken to France........etc. etc.

He was bound to be discovered, which is why the judge dropped the case.

I'm glad I'd left by then, as I can't be sure I wouldn't have been taken in. Conmen are very convincing.

I just hope the CAA do him for exceeding the privileges of his licence, or worse. Give FL another nice little earner :D

pressurize

1st May 2002, 16:34

Mmm, not sure sure about the photocopy thing cos surely you would ask to keep them or at least take copies for your records, after all, it's your but on the line too! Plus, surely the Unit manager must have been involved and would have needed to give approval. If they'd not let him do anything until they'd seen his licence the whole sorry mess would never have happened. Is it not an AOC undertaking to keep a copy of line pilots records.

Alty Meter

1st May 2002, 16:57

Mark Lamb is obviously a good conman, and deceived people being kind to him which in my book makes him an even bigger ****. But I can't see how could he produce photocopies of an ATPL(H) he hasn't got? Does a PPL(H) look anything the same?

Maybe it was a typo, how could the judge 'drop' the case?
I don't think a judge can do that. (Any legal eagles correct me if I'm wrong.) It must have been the CPS who dropped it at the last minute. They'd only do that if they were outmanoevred insome way. It seems to be coming out bit by bit so we'll probably get to the bottom of this fiasco eventually.

Also, I was told this afternoon the PPL actually flew live sorties as well as training flights. Don't know if it's true, but I was assured it was.
And he made up the 'cancer' story to get out of it without losing face when they offered him a permanent job and wanted to see his ATPL.

I'd like to know how this sh1t off. :mad:

pressurize

1st May 2002, 17:08

Don't think the PPL looks anything like the ATPL. Surely you'd check that he had a 135 ticket?

Arkroyal

1st May 2002, 17:13

Alty

The licence pages would be very similar, and easily doctored such that a photocopy would look pukka.

My understanding is that the judge said that he reckoned there was no case, but that the CPS could still bring it. Hardly the best start to a case they were then sure to lose.

Hopefully the CAA can take over where the old bill left off.

Nopax! Excellent, nearly missed that, and oddly enough something similar may have been muttered by the losing side:D

Now, since Mr Lamb lives about 100 yards away, I'll pop round and try to get a job in IT:eek:

paulo

1st May 2002, 17:52

If other people have got what I've got from the CAA then yes, it's easily forged.

Perhaps if I get bored at work one day, I'll rustle up a comedy version with every single rating as a little joke for my flying buddies. :)

Tom the Tenor

1st May 2002, 17:54

Some of you are huffing and puffing too much. Where is your sense of good ol' British humour in all of this debacle? If this had happened in Ireland with the Garda (Police) Air Support Unit a lot of you would have been laughing your heads off. :rolleyes:

holden

1st May 2002, 18:09

I am inclined to agree with Tom...you´d have to be a bit strait-laced not to see the funny side of it.I dont see too much harm in the judge´s decision but his licence should be ripped up.

crab

1st May 2002, 18:22

Surely being a mason wouldn`t get him any preferential treatment from our legal system---------------------would it?

A Very Civil Pilot

1st May 2002, 18:51

Unfortunately accidents do happen with Police/Air Ambulance helicopters. What would the press have made of it if Lamb had had an accident on one of the opersational sorties he flew?

This is one case where the CAA ought to get the support of the aviation community in bringing a prosecuion.

fopaddy

1st May 2002, 19:36

HMMMM!, I see, an alleged fraud, very bad chap to do such a thing.

Of course the charge cleverly beaten by the fact that fraud did not legally occur.
One does not get justice in a court romm, one gets law.

BUT, what did the CAA and the OLD BILL do to the prats that did not do a proper background check on this Walter Mitty, What was done about the prats that let him lose in the chopper. Surely their lack of proper checks prior to letting Mitty lose should have attracted at least a charge of aiding and abetting the commission of various offences. Seems to me that the employers were the real offenders!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Draco

1st May 2002, 20:04

Plenty of time for setting up speed traps, but few checks on who gets to fly their expensive toys. Whoops.

Personally I'm surprised that a PPL could fake such knowledge unless he is already very experienced. It's hard to feign knowledge of flying different aircraft when you are actually put to the test. I find it hard enough sometimes remembering how to fly machines that I have trained on properly!

Don't expect Flying Lawyer to get involved in this one.
Client confidentiality may give him a good reason (or excuse!) to keep below the parapet on this one. ;)

R

Earpiece

1st May 2002, 20:38

I've heard that the EC135 is categorised as a "simple" helicopter and so it must be if this guy (I say again"if") was a qualified EC120 pilot. Is there much similarity between the two - I mean helicopters not licences?

Flying Lawyer

2nd May 2002, 09:06

Draco's guess was right.
I'm restricted in how much I can say about this case at the moment. As you've read, the Defendant still faces a CAA investigation.
And yes, it was very tempting to "keep below the parapet" on this one but it would be wrong of me not to correct some points made so far. Also, the press report isn't entirely accurate.

The Judge did not stop or 'drop' the case.
The defendant faced 6 different charges. During legal argument at the beginning of the trial, the Prosecution had to concede that they simply did not have the evidence to support 5 of them. To succeed, they would have to prove that the Defendant was to be paid (ie a "pecuniary advantage") for the operational flights he performed. Closer examination of the evidence confirmed the Defence argument: There was no agreement that he was ever going to receive payment for those flights, therefore he had not obtained a pecuniary advantage. The Prosecution conceded the point and Not Guilty verdicts were recorded.
The Prosecution then applied to add a completely new charge to the indictment namely that he had dishonestly obtained 'services' (training) by deception. The Judge was agreeable in principle to this application. However, we argued the new charge was based upon a misinterpretation of the relevant law which requires there to have been an agreement or understanding that the services obtained would be paid for. After further legal argument, the Prosecution again conceded that was correct, and that they could not prove this essential element of the offence because there was no agreement that he would pay for his training. The Prosecution withdrew the application to add the new charge.
That left one charge remaining. At our request, the Judge asked the Prosecution to say precisely how it put the case on the one remaining charge. This is not unusual; the Defence are entitled to know what case they are answering. When it was explained, the Judge invited the Prosecution to reconsider whether there was a realistic prospect of any jury convicting on the available evidence. Having done so, the Prosecution did not proceed.
There was no evidence or allegation by any prosecution witness from the ASU that the Defendant had produced a forged, altered or photocopied ATPL.
As to that last remaining charge, the Prosecution was realistic in concluding the chances of a conviction were extremely remote: The Defendant's case was that he only put in a job application because he'd then be allowed to fly with the Unit as 'training' whilst his application was being considered, and he always realised he could never be offered the job unless he produced his ATPL etc.
To obtain a conviction, the Prosecution would have to prove that the Defendant was actually offered the job/contract. They overlooked the fact that he was not. He was told that, subject to production of his ATPL, flying records, satisfactory references from previous employers, and getting through Police security vetting etc, if everything was in order, he would then be offered a contract. He withdrew his application, was not offered the contract, therefore did not obtain a pecuniary advantage. (If he had been offered the contract, the offence would have been complete at that point. Withdrawing later would be mitigation, but not a defence.)
In theory, the Prosecution could have alleged an attempt to obtain the job. However, on the facts of this particular case, they would then have to prove he was actually attempting to obtain the job (rather than free rides and training) without being able to provide any of the items referred to above. Dishonest he may have been, complete fool he clearly is not.
If I couldn't secure an acquittal on that remaining charge in those circumstances, I'd think it was time to hang up my wig and gown and apply for a job with the CAA. (Not that they'd have me! :D )

The Prosecution was informed some months ago that the Defendant did not dispute anything said by the ASU personnel. It was agreed that the CV he submittedwith his job application was almost entirely fantasy. The sole issue was whether the evidence proved the charges brought.
We saw there were fatal flaws in the Prosecution case, but it's not the Defence role to help the Prosecution. The law on 'obtaining a pecuniary advantage' is notoriously difficult. It needs careful consideration, but it's not impossible.
Nor is it the Defence role to tell the police how to investigate properly.

The Defendant never denied he'd behaved thoroughly dishonestly, and very badly towards those who befriended him. He issued a statement of apology to the ASU for all the trouble he'd caused them, explaining that what started as silly boasting got completely out of hand over many months. He volunteered to pay the cost of the traing flights he was given. On legal advice, he pleaded Not Guilty for the very good reason that he wasn't guilty of the criminal offences brought against him.

The Court process worked properly and fairly. No defendant ever has to prove his innocence. The Prosecution bring charges and therefore have the burden of proving them. If they bring the wrong charges, or don't have the necessary evidence, they fail.

As to the investigating and prosecuting process, I say only that I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the CID officers who carried out the investigation find themselves back in uniform directing traffic if the Chief Constable reviews this case. The CPS should have spotted the problems when deciding the appropriate charges but, as I've said, that particular offence has frequently caused problems.

Note: I have responded with the consent of the Defendant and my instructing solicitor. The comments are mine. They didn't ask to see and approve them.

Tudor Owen

Helinut

2nd May 2002, 10:47

What a story! And yet when you begin to look at the detail you can see how it might/could/did happen. I have certainly been around a few flying schools and charter outfits that have been hoodwinked by conmen - the good ones are very very plausible. I can think of two lessons to learn:

Do the paperwork checks before you do anything further. When I was involved in flying training and self-fly hire we would not begin to do even dual training without sight of the licence original;

If you ever get into legal difficulty, use FL as your barrister!

Incidentally, the CAA licences are a bit of a joke when you think of something like this - not even an ID photo. The only way of verifying that the guy with a licence in his sticky mitt is the "holder" of the licence is to ask him to show you his signature - hardly bullet-proof security! I hate passport photos cos I am so ugly, but it is the very lowest standard that seems acceptable.

pressurize

2nd May 2002, 11:31

I'd have to agree. It certainly looks like FL knows what he's doing.

I feel very sorry for the guys at the Unit who have been dragged into this one, but they did kind of bring it on themselves.
I fly the 135 too, and I'd have to say that if he can impress the likes of a unit chief pilot, he must be a good pilot (not excusing what he did for a moment - don't shoot me) as it's not quite the same as an EC120 by a long way.

SLF

2nd May 2002, 12:26

What chance a new charge of "Wasting Police Time"...

Wino

2nd May 2002, 12:59

Hmmm,

Next London Layover, gonna have to pop in on the cops and get me some free Helicopter time...

Cheers
Wino

Hoverman

2nd May 2002, 13:29

Latest installment from my source is the PPL visited the ASU twice a week at least for a year or so before he got any flights. Says he has his own company (true) he's selling (not true), his own EC120 (not true), is freelance heli pilot (not true). All very friendly, but no pax on police ops flights so no rides.
The shiny new 135 arrives, and he learns the numbers with everybody else. Then a vacancy is coming up and, if he's an applicant, he can ride with them as 'famil flights' etc.
He applies with a CV which puts him in Nick Lappos/John Farley league and, boom boom, gets to ride in a police 135! They like him, want to help him so he's offered line training to fill the only gap in his fantastic CV, he's never been a police pilot. He's been a PPL for 10-15 years, and gets though his Line Check with good scores.

I can see how it happened. I think he wanted the rides. How could he ever get the job?
BUT even if it wasn't a criminal offence, he must have known if the brown stuff hit the fan the guys in the ASU who'd been so good to him would be covered in it. :mad:

Arkroyal

2nd May 2002, 14:47

FL

Thanks for such a detailed and enlightening post. Just about wraps this up until and unless the CAA take it further.

As to the existence or not of a dodgy ATPL, I can only quote my sources. It would seem our man wasn't daft enough to leave it behind.

Daft he certainly isn't but I can't get inside the mind of someone who so deliberately, in order to gain for himself a 'go in a helicopter', dropped so many who regarded him as a friend in the poo.

The Law is an ass, but as it stands, his excellently chosen barrister had no problem in getting him off. The CPS, once again are made to look amateurish and foolish. Interesting that FL describes the scrote as dishonest. I wonder how many times barristers find themselves in this kind of situation. Kind of highlights that Law and Justice are not necessarily good pals.

Mr Ree

2nd May 2002, 16:17

Quite interesting comparing the two worlds of Law and aviation. Aviation is all about safety and huge efforts are made to eliminate accidents through the sharing of information.Yet in the legal world the opposite seems to be the case.

Twice the Flying Lawyer reckons he knew the prosecution were going to crash; "It's not the defense role to help the prosecution" and "Nor is it the defense role to tell the police how to investigate properly".
It's a shame that this knowledge couldn't be shared and be put to good use. It might stop this type of 'accident' from happening again.

But I am being naive, and there is no doubt the Flying Lawyer is brilliant at the Law stuff. Makes amazing reading. Just hope the real not guilty guys don't have to pay for it.

Draco

2nd May 2002, 16:55

FL

Thanks for the explanation.

It seems that the prosection was incompetent, you were a whizz and a selfish con-man made a lot of people look stupid. Another outstanding case of legal form taking precedence over real world issues, just like the man jailed for recovering abandoned golf balls except the other way around.

I hope that, at the very least, the whole case cost the chap a great deal of money, or don't tell me, the long-suffering taxpayer ended up footing the defence bill too??? :(

R

Mr Ree

2nd May 2002, 18:16

What gets me is the lack of moral obligation on a broader scale. Say, for example, you saw an aircraft taxiing out with the control locks still in place, you couldn't say oh well, it's not for me to tell the pilot what to do. That's obvious to everyone here.
But how about a slightly lesser extreme; you operate in the GA enviroment and see a competing outfit who's aircraft has a minor defect that will result in an expensive but non fatal or harmful incident. By keeping quiet you know the result will be financial reward for you. Again it's obvious, I hope, that that wouldn't happen, but in the legal world keeping quiet means you win and get well rewarded for it too. That's their only moral obligation.
Just as well O.J. didn't give me a call.
I know I would make a useless lawyer. Just as well I'm not one!

Lou Scannon

2nd May 2002, 18:42

Someone needs their rear kicked over this Walter Mitty character...but don't let the Brit's claim a monopoly in unqualified pilots getting jobs without a licence.

Do you remember the Florida major airline FO who, on passing all the hoops for command, was found a bit short in the paperwork department? Never mind the Brit just having a Private licence, this American joker didn't even have one of those.

The whole incident was so embarrassing for both the company and the Feds that it never went to court.

Wino

2nd May 2002, 18:47

Yep it happened to PANAM in the 40s, and to Matson Airways in the 40s as was well documented in Ernie Gann's spectacular book "Fate is the Hunter."

It is for these and other similar cases that the "trust but verify" doctrine of mandatory 5-10 year background checks came about, which are supposedly required before anyone can turn a motor.

British airlines I believe operate under similar stringent background check requirements, and I find it ironic that the police whom are charged with carrying out the law didn't employ similar checks. To me its a lot like the congressman getting back from the 12 martini lunch just in time to vote on the Blood Alchohol Testing for all transport workers. Could you imagine if a security company involved in transporting money operated like that? "Ummmm I'ld like a job driving an armored truck, preferably one with a lot of money in it." And these are harmless humor. Fifth columnists, sign up now...

Come on and lighten up, in this case you just have to giggle atleast a little.

Cheers
Wino

slj

2nd May 2002, 19:05

This case should never have been brought.

The CPS are so stretched in resources and competence that they missed the vital point in this case
as put by Tudor Owen

"To obtain a conviction, the Prosecution would have to prove that the Defendant was actually offered the job/contract. They overlooked the fact that he was not. He was told that, subject to production of his ATPL, flying records, satisfactory references from previous employers, and getting through Police security vetting etc, if everything was in order, he would then be offered a contract. He withdrew his application, was not offered the contract, therefore did not obtain a pecuniary advantage"

If the man still lives in the police area he will have to ensure that his driving is perfect at all times!!

I forgot to mention that Mr Lamb was smart enough to ensure his solicitor got him a good lawyer with aviation knowledge. I wonder if that knowledge came from PPRune?

Hoverman

3rd May 2002, 12:36

slj
Should never have been brought. :eek:
It's very easy to say that now, when we all know what happened.

This guy conned the Police and ended up flying a Police helicopter. I somehow don't believe however overstretched the CPS are they'd have run this one like just an ordinary case, and they would have had their own barrister advising them and prosecuting the case in the crown court.
The guy got off ALL the charges, not just the main one. :mad:

llamas

3rd May 2002, 13:24

Thank you, FL, for an excellent summary of how this played out before the Recorder.

I think those participants who suggest that the ASU and its officers were stupid, or naive, or negligent, need to bear in mind that they dealt for upwards of a year with a person who is obviously skilled at presenting a convincing account of himself.

I'm minded of Frank Abagnale, a high-school graduate who pulled an analogous stunt in the 60's, representing himself as a PanAm pilot and riding jumpseats and sometimes left-and-right seats around the world on that airline's aircraft. He then graduated into check fraud and the like, which is how I know him.

Frank is "straight" now - Persil-scheined by the FBI, no less. I like Frank very well, and am always glad to attend one of his training seminars. But that man could sell iceboxes to Eskimoes, and I always check my wallet when I'm done talking with him.

Never underestimate the power of a persuasive personality. Perhaps the ASU needs one or two recent ex-beat-copppers knocking around the place - I doubt that this fellow would have got very far around someone like that.

llater,

llamas

slj

3rd May 2002, 14:59

Hoverman

I said the case put before the court should never had been brought.

This is different from saying that there should not have been a prosecution on some grounds.

One of the best pieces of advice in deciding to bring a case to court is to carry out an exercise that makes you look at how you would defend that case if you represented the otherside. You quickly see the snags in your case if any exist.

Read what FL says in his first posting. Why did he decide to leave his destruction exercise to the actual hearing? What were the risks in trying to get the charges withdrawn before the hearing?

Legalapproach

3rd May 2002, 20:05

Mr Ree

Lawyers in any system be it adversarial or inquisitorial, represent their clients and I am not sure whether you are making a genuine point or embarking upon a bit of lawyer bashing, a sport not entirely unknown on Pprune.

The system we have provides for anyone accused of an offence to be properly defended and for the prosecution to prove their guilt if they are to be convicted.

The adversarial system works upon the principle that both sides have the opportunity to be represented by advocates (as we must call them these days) of equal calibre. It doesn't always follow but it does to a large extent and it is worth remembering that barristers such as myself and FL both prosecute and defend. It is perhaps fortunate for the flying community that the CAA seem to have a policy of not instructing pilots to prosecute their cases (at least so I have heard and none of the CAA prosecutors I have been against have ever been pilots) and thus so far FL has not been lured by the Dark Side.

Joking apart, the Bar code of conduct provides, inter alia:

When defending a client on a criminal charge, a barrister must endeavour to protect his client from conviction except by a competent tribunal and upon legally admissible evidence sufficient to support a conviction for the offence for which his client is charged.

A barrister is under a duty to defend any person on whose behalf he is instructed on a criminal charge irrespective of any belief or opinion which he may have formed as to the guilt or innocence of that person.

Defending counsel is not under any duty to correct any mis-statement of fact made by the prosecution.......

The code also reminds barristers that

"the issue in a criminal trial is always whether the accused is guilty of the offence charged, never whether he is innocent;

that the burden of proof rests on the prosecution"

I pose the question, whether it be in a criminal or civil case, would you like to be represented by a lawyer who is going to tell the opposition about the gaps in your case and what they should do to make their case stronger? Having subsequently lost the case what is going to be your reaction when you come to pay his bill?

Vfrpilotpb

3rd May 2002, 20:36

Despite this guy being what could be described as a bit of a conman, he must have been very able in the flying department, the Chief pilot otherwise would have seen though him,

Wouldn't he?:eek:

steamchicken

3rd May 2002, 20:43

It's a basic principle of law that both sides kick off equal and do their best. It might seem nice to say - Well, he's a swine, must be guilty, but when you make an exception from the law once, you damage the whole system....soon you come to - Oh well, he's black, looked at me funny - guilty! and Oh, he's rich, must be OK-. Therefore, any breach of the law by the police or the prosecution has to be treated strictly, as they have the power to tits around with the evidence, batter the suspect etc. if they are not held to it. Democracy and the Rule of Law go together - unfortunately that means that sometimes, we have to put up with a verdict we don't like.

Mr Ree

3rd May 2002, 21:08

I wasn't intending to do some law bashing with my comments, only to remark on the differences between the two codes of aviation and law. Often we see the old debate 'could a newly qualified PPL land a 747 etc', well I suppose I was thinking what if a pilot was a lawyer for a day; would they be able to keep quiet about some facts that they knew, if released, would send their guilty (as admitted) client to jail.
Having said that, knowing some of the guys I fly with that would have to be a resounding yes!
Oh well. Really just as well I'm not a lawyer.:)

flyboy2

4th May 2002, 17:58

In South Africa there was a similar set of events , where this "Walter Mitty" was sooo smooth that he took in several employers , actually flying reasonably well ! But , he had held only a PPL -then expired - when he flew commercially for a few months.
So beware - it's not the first - nor the last time these "Walter Mitty's" try to be employed - without a license !

MightyGem

5th May 2002, 09:45

Has he actually done anything that the CAA could do him for? As far as I can make out he has a PPL(H), so he's qualified to fly helicopters. He managed to get himself some flights in a twin, albeit dishonestly, but presumably with an instructor. He won't have flown it "solo" or with fare paying passengers, ie public transport.

So has he done anything that isn't covered by his PPL?

Earpiece

5th May 2002, 14:29

Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but I've heard that he flew single pilot operational sorties with police observers and that he had never had a base check or whatever with an instructor on the EC135.

Please tell me that I have hearing trouble!

Alty Meter

6th May 2002, 11:03

Someone said earlier he did his training and got through his Line Checks on the EC135 before doing operational flights. They wouldn't have just sent him off. :confused:

ShyTorque

6th May 2002, 12:21

Seems to me this should have been discussed more thoroughly with the CAA. The prosecution (well deserved IMHO) should perhaps have been brought by them, not the CPS.

It appears the charges were incorrect, hence the not guilty verdict. Deception apart, it seems **** was knowingly operating outside of the privileges of his licence; all police flights of this nature are deemed to be public transport. Competent or not, he was not legally allowed to make PT flights as commander.

And presumably the Chief Pilot wants his ar$e kicking...(but he's certainly not the only one who could have been conned). Hopefully this won't EVER happen again. If there had been an accident......

Anti Skid On

7th May 2002, 09:02

Over here in NZ we have just had a guy get the CEO of a new Maori TV channel to be launched next year - except they found his MBA came straight off the net, his affiliation (supposedly a board member)with the British Columbia security board (the Canadian stock exchange) non-existant, his claimed sporting feats - all made up, etc. He pulled a £200K public job and then claims the CIA (or Canadian equivalent) changed his identity. The only honest facts about him was that he had twice been a bankrupt.

Now, if I get my Flight Sim 2000 out and print out the log book and the Airline Transport Licence think I can get a job!

Skycop9

12th May 2002, 16:01

Glad to see that other court systems are as screwed up as the U.S. . I work in a small unit as a pilot and before you can even get an interview with the unit you must present your medical, pilots license and log book. If anything looks suspicious they would pull your last two medical applications and check you flying hours. If you don't present these documents you don't even get the interview.

We have a set of procedures for pilots and observer selection and follow them to insure that all applicants meet the requirements. ;)

Feel bad for the Unit that let this happen. But I bet it will nevr happen again and alot of Police Agencies will be rechecking the applicants.

Skycop9

Legalapproach

12th May 2002, 20:22

Mr Ree,

You say 'guilty (as admitted) client....', if a client admits his guilt a barrister cannot defend him upon a not guilty plea unless

(i) his admission does not in fact amount to the commission of the relevant offence in law ie "well I'm guilty because I did X but I did not intend Y" where Y is a necessary ingredient of the offence. or,

where

(ii) there is insufficient evidence upon which the client could be convicted of the offence charged.
In the latter case we can only put the prosecution to proof and not assert a positive case to try and prove innocence.

Actually we are a pretty honourable profession who largely stick to the rules - to be honest most of us don't believe that its worth being struck off by breaking the rules. I appreciate most people have an inate mistrust of lawyers and the question we are always asked is "how can you defend people you know are guilty?" The question nobody ever asks is "how can you prosecute people you know are innocent?".

If you really want to see how the legal system works why not come along and see, if you fancy swopping a jump seat ride for a day in court drop me a line.

jayteeto

30th Sep 2007, 15:07

Surely he didn't do an operational sortie solo, I had to go to Gatwick to get my licence endorsed with 135 before I even got near the aircraft single pilot.....

Mark Nine

30th Sep 2007, 16:07

What was the final outcome of this, did the C.A.A. ever castrate Mr.Lamb ?

500e

30th Sep 2007, 18:15

£350 an hour sounds good to me!!:suspect:

MDflyer

29th Dec 2007, 13:05

thats is one hell of a story,
how can a guy take over a helicopter and fly it,
without all the checks been carried out,
ie, log book, type rating, licence,

hope they do better next time, lol

maxdrypower

30th Dec 2007, 14:43

At the end of the day , you are dealing with the police (I am one) This chap came in talking the talk and apparently convincingly walking the walk and conned whoever it is that does recruitment . The police service is absolutely stackfull of idiots with rank on their shoulders who do just that that . They have little experience little ability and are invariably crap at their jobs , thus making the police service a laughing stock . Now if the police cannot root out pillochs in their own ranks how are they ever going to suss out that a chap claiming to hold licences to do something they have no idea about , actually doesnt . Our vetting depts for gods sake are a waste of time , Ive lost track of how many , football hooligans , disqualified drivers , ex prison inmates etc etc we have allowed into our ranks due to this ridiculous process . This comes as no surprise to me from the police side. I am quite surprised though that he managed to fox the pilots . You guys (Helis) all seem to know one another or have at least heard of each other. With the quals that this guy allegedly had I would have thought someone would have known him , but these people are sent to try us .
On a policey side of things FL does infer that the CID officers investigating might be getting an interview without coffee from the chief. In case like this the CID ,if indeed they dealt with it would have put all the evidence to the CPS who would have made the decision on which charge was appropriate not the Police . They would have then formulated their case on the evidence they had , which would probably have been very comprehensive . This is not the fault of the police but as per usual the CPS , prosecutions dont fail generally because of the police , as we dont prosecute the CPS do .
My last drink drive case that went to court was prosecuted by a very well paid gentleman who had months to prepare .He was faced with a very worthy adversary , a 24 year old solicitior with a years experience who got the file that morning , The laws an ass.
But at least we know that there are people like FL who can us pilot types if we should need it .
N.B any probationary police officer could have told you that defence to obtaining pecuniary advantage it aint rocket science :ugh::ugh:

kbf1

18th Sep 2009, 15:22

This comes a couple of years after the last post on this thread, and I appreciate that. First a word about how I came by it.

Mark Lamb was a mate of mine, and he dissapeared off my radar a while back (around the time of the prosecution) so I was doing a google search this morning to see if I could track him down (I know he moved abroad a while back) and stumbled on tis. At first I thought it was a co-incidence seeing his name, but Mark Lamb, lives near Lutterworth, flies with EMASU, all fitted and sadly confirmed that the friend I thought was someone with considerable flying experience was not what he seemed.

Let me first defend him. Mark was, and if he is still flying I am sure continues to be, a skilled an competent pilot irrespective of whether his ability to fly a machine marries up with the qualifications I, and others, believed he held. In fact it was his ab ility to fly that made him "credible". I flew with him a number of times in an EC120 between Redhill and Kilworth Springs Golf Club (where he sometimes parked on a verge next to the club house), as well as in a Bell in and out of Denham (where he had some established contacts at HeliAir, including Q Smith the owner of the firm), and in R22/44 both in the UK and US (at Group 3 Aviation in LA, which he said he had a stake in and which at the time I had no reason to doubt, though obviously now I wonder). Mark was also a friend whenever I needed one, and so I can understand why people at the ASU would feel comfortable in his presence. In fact, on one occasion I drove up to the ASU for a coffee and a catch up (around 2001 IIRC) probably on one of the days he was on a training flight as he was kicking about in a flying suit.

I would hope that court case notwithstanding, that he manages to "rehabilitate" himself should he still be flying. I can see a defence that it was a bit of bragging that went too far. Mark was highly accomplished in the IT field having worked for a large city law firm and a number of other start ups and he certainly had earned considerable sums out of his skills. I can only summise that IT wasn't where is "heart" was, and what he wanted was to ingratiate himself in the world that he wanted to belong to. The fact is, he had the skills and aptitude certainly, and most likely the means as well to put himself through the training that would have given him the career he aspired to.

I feel let down in a sense, but he is/was my mate, so I also feel compelled to stand by him in the face of the criticisms he has had on this thread. The fact that many of those criticisms are mostly warranted in one form or another is not an easy thing to accept in someone I considered a mate, and I'd still stand by him no matter what, though I do also want to kick his backside for using me to add credibility to a personae that was clearly made up (though he isn't the worst offender: just ask anyone from the AAC around 10 years ago who knows the story of the fat "Idi Amin" lookalike that blagged his way onto a flying cse without doing Grading with a falsified logbook, got kicked off the course and went to SA and persuaded the SADF to lend him and his girlfriend a Bell which he then crash-landed in the desert when it ran out of fuel).

handysnaks

18th Sep 2009, 16:22

I'm sure raking his misdemeanours up 20 odd months after the last post on this subject is definitely going to help his rehabilitation into aviation society (if there is such a thing)!:rolleyes:

B.U.D.G.I.E

18th Sep 2009, 16:31

This may stir up a bit of a storm. But, if a guy with little experience manages to fly a twin helicopter(with no real training) well enough to pass a test. (Which I am sure is pretty dam hard) Does this not prove that there may be no real need to have all the ex mil experience every one seems to brag about on here.

Now I understand that from a safety point of view the more hours the better and the reasons behind that and i'm not for one second saying that should change.

Just thought I would open the question up for debate.

jayteeto

18th Sep 2009, 18:18

I flew a Tristar sim safely without ever handling a big jet, can I be a captain please???

ShyTorque

18th Sep 2009, 19:08

I have a driving licence, two and four wheels; I've probably held it longer than most serving traffic policemen. I also have off-tarmac and on-tarmac competition experience. I have driven on motorways for many years.

I could argue that I should therefore be allowed to drive a big white traffic car with blues and twos on a pursuit, just like a traffic policeman. Without even showing them my driving licence.

The average reaction to that would be "Rubbish, what are you thinking?" I would agree, but it would actually be legal, unlike the unqualified muppet in question flying a police helicopter on a Public Transport flight.

Agaricus bisporus

18th Sep 2009, 20:58

He's a mason!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As blatant a self-confession of ignorance and bigotry as anyone could ever make.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Dysfunctional

18th Sep 2009, 21:40

On a lighter note....................

View Work - Writers Harbor (http://www.writersharbor.org/work_view.php?work=242)

:rolleyes:

Dysfunctional

18th Sep 2009, 22:02

A similar story from the USA. Quite some years ago, I was offered a job here flying a Hughes 500 E. Utility work. Maintaining power lines. I got a demo ride as a pax, and we put one skid on a pole, 100 feet above the ground. With the cables at least six inches from the bubble. No biggie. :bored: The two bods in the back calmly climbed out. :uhoh: My eyes fell out of my head. :mad: Anyway, I gratefully declined the offer, but the employer did tell me about an experience he had earlier. He had one guy claim 2,000 hours. Up they went, with candidate flying. The boss, simulating a worker, climbed out. Then the helicopter nearly crashed. Lost control, and the boss thought they were all going to 'flame out'. Once down, somehow, they were both shaking so much, they went to a bar. Over a beer, our 2,000 hour hero admitted he had just under two HUNDRED hours, and had pencil whipped just over 1,800 rotary flight hours.
What amazed him, and me, was not so much that a dude would falsify his log book. That's crazy, and opens a person to all sorts of criminal liability down the road. But what really amazes is that a fellow would follow up his gall by attempting such a serious, serious flight, knowing he had so little experience.

Two's in

18th Sep 2009, 22:36

The problem most people seem to have overlooked here is the one of personal integrity. Effective captaincy requires prompt analytical skills and the ability to arrive at a logical and safe conclusion in a timely manner. If you can't decide whether to tell the truth or a complete fabrication at a preliminary and subsequent job interviews, there is a real chance you may struggle to make the right call on an marginal VFR decision or following a time critical emergency when airborne. The underlying causes of lying or fantasies are usually huge self-esteem issues wrestling with an inflated ego. Neither condition is conducive to the stable extrovert personality required of a safe pilot.

Any fool can demonstrate superb handling skills, it's the integrity and decision making that go with these that make the professional aviator.

sarboy w****r

19th Sep 2009, 00:28

kbf1

It would appear that life hasn't been kind to the chap you mentioned, despite the fact that he comes across as an extremely personable chap (when I met him at Shawbury).

Michael Page wins tribunal case with former employee | News | Recruiter (http://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/michael-page-wins-tribunal-case-with-former-employee/335688.article)

And if you know the reason why he left Shawbury, then this is just ironic:

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Politics Show | Midlands: In camera: your comments (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/3411217.stm)

And I'm intrigued as to why a Google search with "south africa" amongst the terms should bring up:

Aeros - Flight Training at Gloucestershire and Filton (http://www.aeros.co.uk/company/staff.html)

SBW

fluffy5

19th Sep 2009, 05:56

This is an old case, and the chap got caught out. There are a few people that I know of, lets say that have been a little more engergetic in there log book and are/ still flying now for the police / hems units.
This kind of thing used to wind me up, when I was battling along year after year trying to gain experience. If the units do not physically check these guys credentials then its there own problem.
When I have guys apply, I start calling people to find out exactly there background and the time they were there.
It's a small industry and everyone is linked in with everyone along their career path.
fluffy

kbf1

19th Sep 2009, 17:54

Sarboy:

The only reason he didn't get kicked out of the Factory was because he was a diversity poster-boy. HIs list of misdemeanours included:

1. Telling Gold Stick (the Maj Gen in charge of the Household Div) he wanted to join HCR after being ranked "bottom third" and expecting that he would get in by playing the race card. urban myth has it GS told him "we don't take people who have been back-coursed" and he subsequently found that he had been backed the following day (suspect though the truth is he was turned down just before being backed)

2. Got caught on a speed camera and tried to claim his car was in Germany at the time. When the case went to court and the police proved that it was his car (not a similar one on cloned plates as he claimed) he tried to get his girlfriend to state she was driving. She refused and he was prosecuted. he was about to be dismissed from the RSigs for conduct unbecoming, but got away with it because he claimed he was being victimised because of his race.

3. He was RTU'd from Boz after rocking up in a staff post wearing an RRF hackle behind his Sigs "Jimmy" claiming he had some reserved rights to wear it having served with them on attachment. He was given a media ops job and caused a near diplomatic incidient.

4. Rocked up at MW claiming huge numbers of RAF hours gained in a UAS that meant he would have been exempt grading. He got as far as Shawbury before he was found to be totally barking and unsafe in the air. Caused huge amounts of grief with AAC who had to clear whole mess up. Put on administrative leave pending dismissal when he went for his jolly to SA.

I'd heard more about him along the way. A total legend!

sarboy w****r

20th Sep 2009, 01:06

kbf1,

Haha, I'm well aware of the short comings of the chap in question..I merely stated that he is an extremely personable chap! But as a pilot, I dread to think that someone might take him on as a member of staff...

Hours in a B747/A320 between the UK and USA don't count in your logbook unless you're actually in the cockpit - being a pax down the back doesn't count. Oh, hang on, maybe I can add them as P2...

Oh, and having a single-barelled name automatically makes one less likely to achieve promotion. Obviously. So perhaps it'd be good to add a second barrel to improve one's promotion prospects...

Legend!

SBW

dumbsruck

19th Jul 2012, 18:43

This man is still conning people.Seems he has changed his interests from the Police service to the Ambulance Service.He is using people and ruining lives just as he has done so in the past,what do they say about leopards and spots?
Hopefully the NHS WILL do their checks and he shall this time get caught....:D

Helinut

20th Jul 2012, 13:33

dumsruck,

As a new poster here, perhaps you should bear in mind that (probably fortunately) the NHS has little or nothing to do with running air ambulance (HEMS) operations. They are paid for in England and Wales by charities. Usually, the "operator" is an experienced helicopter company. The NHS provides the paramedics and the requests for tasking.

Do you want to provide any more detail?

flight beyond sight

21st Jul 2012, 11:38

Anybody out there know of Mr Lambs whereabouts as I have just seen thisthread and he also conned our company out of a lot of money with a total pack of lies.

Please PM me if you do

sodski

25th Jul 2012, 11:29

Interesting how a new ppruner finds this thread after its been dead for so long.... Could it be that your motives are perhaps commercial and you are using this forum for your own profit to score some points..... If this guy is indeed involved with the NHS now, I'm sure sufficient checks would have been done, although I hear that some private ambulance operators dont bother... There was a bad one down your way in Norwich wasnt there? Heard the guy that runs it is a right prat!

"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed"

dumbsruck

9th Nov 2012, 11:58

Do you know what,listening to you ,you could even be Mr Lamb himself.......
you seem to know a lot,yes he is a prat he didn't do the checks and gave Mr lamb a job,lucky that it didn't last but Lamb decided to ruin two more lives on the way, he has to be stopped!!!!!!

LAMBtotheslaughter

30th Jan 2015, 09:53

Looks like the police have this prat (aka Mark Lamb / Alan Chandler) in their sights again now for fraud, forgery (how appropriate given the 'copter story) and theft!

For those of you who mentioned in this thread that he owes you money, Lincolnshire Police Fraud department is only a call/email away! Alternately you can have the pleasure of saying 'hello' to him again at Grantham Magistrates Court on 9th February 2015.

Read the full details: Company Director charged with Fraud and Forgery Offences - Lincolnshire Police (http://www.lincs.police.uk/News-Centre/News-Releases-2015/Company-Director-charged-with-Fraud-and-Forgery-Offences.html)

ralphmalph

31st Jan 2015, 10:34

Sarboy, Kbf1,

Idi Amin is alive in Dubai.......flying FW.

I sincerely hope I never get on an aircraft with him up front.

Markalan

24th Feb 2015, 17:26

A company director who was charged by Lincolnshire Police with fraud offenses totaling more than £5 million has appeared at Lincoln Crown Court.
Alan Chandler spoke only to confirm his name during a preliminary hearing which lasted just five minutes.
The court heard Chandler previously used the name Mark Lamb, but changed his identity by deed poll.
Chandler, 40, was charged in January after an investigation by the Economic Crime Unit of Lincolnshire Police.
He is charged is charged with six offenses of fraud by false representation, two charges of using a false instrument with intent it be accepted as genuine, one charge of fraud by abuse of position and one charge of theft by employee.
Lincolnshire Police said the charges concerned Mr Chandler’s alleged conduct as a director of Soleil Holdings Ltd and associated companies.
All of the alleged offences happened in Stamford between August 1, 2008 and February 13, 2013.
No pleas were entered and Chandler, of Torrance Drive, Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire, was granted unconditional bail.
He will next appear at Lincoln Crown Court for a plea and case management hearing on May 29.

Read more: Company director faces £5m Stamford fraud charges before Lincoln Crown Court | Lincolnshire Echo (http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Company-director-faces-5m-Stamford-fraud-charges/story-26070098-detail/story.html#ixzz3SgjVY89k)
Follow us: @LincsEcho on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=brwdboh6er4411acwqm_6r&u=LincsEcho) | LincsEcho on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=brwdboh6er4411acwqm_6r&u=LincsEcho)

Markalan

24th Feb 2015, 20:58

If you want Mark Lamb look at my post his address is there. If you want the man dealing with the case contact me

air-bender

4th Mar 2015, 13:20

Can anyone confirm if this Mark Lamb, AKA Alan Chandler was in the U.S.? maybe Louisiana and Texas and possibly the North East?

From reading this thread he most certainly sounds like the chap I met in Houston Texas around the Spring of 2009. He was working for a friend of mine at a small flight school as an instructor... Tallish Lanky guy with dark hair.

First time I met him was when my friend who owned the company invited him along to a bar when I was in town... Apparently when I first said his name I didn't quite use the correct "English" accent (not surprising as i'm from the U.S) for his name and proceeded to publicly correct my pronunciation of his name in a more "English" accent. My friend and I still joke about that incident so many years later.

About 2 months later my friend asked me what I thought about him... I told her that he seemed very evasive about his background... and I also told her that I didn't think he had a legal work permit and most certainly wasn't a citizen of the U.S. She mentioned that he'd become quite demanding and seemed to want to take more control of her company.

I took a little closer look into him and his work with her company, About 2 weeks later I caught him red handed stealing from her company. Kinda sad after all that she'd done for him.
I told her to directly ask him about his immigration status...

Mark hightailed it out of Texas and the last anyone had heard he was somewhere up in the North East.

It might not be the same Mark... but chances are... English guy named Mark, flies helicopters and (was also good at IT, one of the reasons he also got hired at my friends company) is a Con man...

Incidentally, I actually think he was using a different last name when he was in the U.S. However, after discussing it with my friend she came to the conclusion that it was a fake last name...

Wonder who he's conning right now.

Peter-RB

4th Mar 2015, 15:13

I always wanted to get into the fabulous Apache, and Zap a few baddies, well this guy just might have shown me the way.:suspect:

I'll send a post card, from somewhere, or any were or where ever any one who will give me the keys, ..never thought it would be so easy.:cool::cool::cool:

cee_ell

15th May 2016, 20:01

Just a quick reply to one of the posts here. Mark lamb was in no way a partner or had anything to do with Group 3 Aviation in LA. He is a fraud and a crook. He was actually arrested by Los Angeles Police at Group 3 Aviation back in 1999. He was actually handcuffed in front of a lot of people and escorted out to the LAPD Van Nuys station in a black and white patrol car. Some of the people who were there that day included all his Virgin Atlantic buddies who he had also scammed into thinking he was the owner of Group 3 Aviation. He managed to humiliate them by association when LAPD detained them all as well. He actually tried to embezzle money from Group 3 but was caught by the owner. He also lied about owning the Group 3 owner's home. Group 3 was contacted by Lincoln UK police about Mark Lamb. He has scammed so many people. He has hurt a lot of people. Stay clear of this guy - he will charm his way into your bank account and you will be left sorry. BTW he was not tall and not skinny. He is British and he was overweight and unhealthy looking.

kbf1

17th Mar 2017, 14:19

hmmmm

Just checked an old email address and saw a PM related to this subject sent to me a couple of months ago digging about the story.

@cee_ell: I actually met him for the first time on VS flt to LA when I was going out to visit my ex. Whatever he was doing out there, it took him to LA 3 or 4 times a year so whenever we were in town together we would take an R44 out from Group 3. His story was that he was big mukkas with Peter Lowry and had a residency permit for the US based on having made a major investment in G3 as a "silent partner". the fact that his name didn't appear anywhere on their website wasn't a major drama if he was a silent partner, so I let it pass.

On one occasion (I can't remember if this was either Dec 1999 or Dec 2000 - so are you sure about the alleged arrest date?) he arranged for us, and some friends from the UK to take an R44 from Group 3 out to Catalena, but it was short lived because we got as far as LAX and had to put down for 3 hours waiting for a Wx system to pass. In the end we didn't have the time to get there and back so returned to Van Nuys where Peter took him to one side and half an hour later Mark left the room looking quite red faced. We ended up going back to the VS crew hotel where he was staying - and that seemed to be how he knew a few of the crews because he knew all of the VS layover hotels and seemed to find ways to get invited back to the rooms where the hotel put on the crew buffet for the incoming/outgoing crews to get something to eat on the change over. his line was he knew them from having done a lot of flying with the pilots, but he seemed to know more cabin crew than anything else.

He also claimed at various points to have been involved in various Virgin businesses. I know he was doing some IT contracting for Virgin Energy as a start up, but also claimed to be involved in "Virgin Helicopters" - not that I had ever come across such a venture.

In 2004 I was back in LA for the final time and called in at G3 to have a chat with them about doing some hour building/training and mentioned I knew Mark and got cold shouldered, but without explanation.

As for appearance: he is/was about 5'8", stocky with fair hair. He also blinks a lot.

@air-bender: About 2005 I had word that he had gone out to Dubai to sell luxury yachts. I hadn't heard from him in about 3 years (he came and went a bit after 2001 when he flew his girlfriend out to Dubai and proposed and she turned him down - it was kind of odd that for all the money he flashed as an IT contractor they were living in her 2 bed terrace in Luton while his mother had a reasonably large pad and a bit of land in Witney, but that in itself didn't say much, though on a couple of occasions when I found myself hanging around for him on a pre-arranged meet to fly I'd call the house number explain to her I was waiting for him to turn up at Redhill to take the EC120 -GECZZ if anyone ever came across it, and she'd hang up on me. The last time it happened I was set to fly out to Paris with him and it fell through at the last moment and she got the hump about him "talking bollocks" - I suppose my antennae should have been up at that point, but he was a mate so I gave him the benefit of the doubt)and tried to look him up. I tried again a few years later which turned up this thread after I googled him and the only Mark Lamb I could find alongside this thread was an article about a UK pilot who had gone out to the US to train as a pilot and who won an award from his flight school for the highest marks/course performance so presumed on the basis of him not likely to be able to fly again in the UK on a licence that he had rehabilitated himself in the US.

His IT background was pretty solid. he spent about a year working for the UK law firm Simmons and Simmons as their main IT guy, then a firm in Milton Keynes called Workplace Systems (we took the EC120 out to MK so he could give some of his colleagues a jolly around MK then flew it up to Lutterworth and parked it on the golf course) before he went to Virgin Energy in Covent Garden. If any of that rings true then it's the same guy.

I never parted with any money with him, and the worst of it was probably flying in a way that exceeded both of our licence privileges thinking he had an ATPL(H) which he didn't and perhaps being made to look a bit gullible/foolish with people who had actually sussed him out. Fair enough, I'll take that criticism, but then who hasn't done things they later think was ill-advised for a friend?