Ornge helicopter crash

[skadi]

Ornge helicopter crashes in northern Ontario | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/603892/ornge-helicopter-crashes-in-northern-ontario/)

TORONTO – A search and rescue mission is underway after an Ornge air ambulance helicopter crashed shortly after takeoff in northern Ontario Friday morning.

The helicopter, en route to Attawapiskat, departed from Moosonee at approximately 12:00 a.m.

Contact was lost with the aircraft shortly after takeoff, Ornge said in a statement.

Two pilots and two paramedics were onboard at the time of the incident.
A search and rescue team dispatched from CFB Trenton located the downed aircraft in the Moosonee area.

No further information is available regarding the status of the crew members on board, or the aircraft.

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada has been notified.

Keep fingers crossed for the crew!

skadi

[rotorhead350]

RIP!


Four people confirmed dead in Ornge helicopter crash near Moosonee, Ont. - Winnipeg Free Press (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/canadian-press-newsalert-4-confirmed-dead-in-ornge-helicopter-crash-near-moosonee-ont-209636961.html)

MOOSONEE, Ont. - Ontario's air ambulance service is confirming four of its staff are dead after one of its helicopters crashed in a remote area of northern Ontario early this morning.
The Ornge air ambulance service is expressing "deep regret" in its statement that no one survived the accident near Moosonee.
"Everybody at Ornge is deeply saddened by this tragic incident, and our hearts go out to the families and friends of those who lost their lives," Dr. Andrew McCallum, president and CEO of Ornge, said in the statement this morning.
"We will do whatever we can to support them at this difficult time. We will also co-operate fully with the authorities charged with investigating the accident."
Ornge said two pilots and two paramedics were on board the aircraft, but no patients.
It said the family members of those who were on board have been notified.
The air ambulance service said the Sikorsky S76 helicopter left its base in Moosonee en route to Attawapiskat at about midnight and contact was lost with the aircraft shortly after takeoff.
Provincial police in North Bay said they called in military rescue crews, who parachuted down to the "very remote bush area" where the chopper went down.
Christian Cafiti, a spokesman at the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre at CFB Trenton says the helicopter crash site near Moosonee was located this morning and confirms there were no survivors.
Premier Kathleen Wynne said she was "devastated" to learn of the fatal crash.
"The pilots and paramedics of Ornge provide lifesaving services in every region of this province, and my thoughts and prayers are with the friends and families of these brave individuals," she said in a statement.
"They lost their lives ensuring the people of this province receive the help they need. Their service and sacrifice will be honoured and remembered."
It wasn't immediately clear what caused the crash. The Transportation Safety Board has been notified and will be investigating.
Further details are expected to be released at a media conference to be held later today.

[Viper 7]

Any indication of cause factors?

[newfieboy]

RIP

Very saddened to hear this news this morning. I know all the Moosenee crews very well. Was up there working alongside them only last month, our Moosenee base is next door to Ornge. Thinking of families and all at Moose base. Very sorry for your loss.

[HeliHenri]

:(
Arcal76 is flying for them, hope that he's well !
.

[Furia]

RIP

The newspaper mentioned the helicopter departed at midnight so it was a night flight.
It does not mention if it was a night VFR or IFR flight.
The article mentions it was a S-76.
My thoughts for the families.

[BartBandy]

newest update.

ORNGE helicopter crash kills four shortly after takeoff in northern Ontario | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/05/31/ornge_helicopter_crashes_in_northern_ontario.html)

[newfieboy]

Don't quote me, but I heard maybe an onboard fire.

[SASless]

Did the investigators confirm the In-Flight fire on the Oklahoma Crash or was that just a bogus report by an ernest witness?

[Arcal76]

For those who are worried about me, I am OK since I am not based in Moosonee and I fly the 139. But I worked there and know the place well.
It is very sad for us and we now have to wait to determine what's happened.
The aircraft went down just after take-off runway 06, 2 SM from the runway.
We don't know more.
We do not do IFR flight because we do not have alternate, but as soon you take-off at night from the runway, it is dark, dark, dark and it is an instrument flight, it is worst when it rains.
So, no speculation until we get information's please.

[SASless]

Names of those killed and some general information about the flight.

4 Ornge helicopter crash victims ID'd as from Ontario, Quebec - Sudbury - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/story/2013/05/31/sby-sudbury-ornge-air-ambulance-accident-moosonee-attawapiskat-james-bay.html)

[havoc]

Are they an NVG program?

[malabo]

No NVG, and that isn't how night VFR works in Canada. You lay out night routes the same as IFR routes, but with lower terrain clearance, and narrower corridors, which matters not in these days of GPS. Pretty flat at Moosonee. You'd punch in the verified and stored route to Attawapiskat into the Garmin 530 (dual install on the S76), takeoff, climb to altitude, and then wait till you got there, if visual with the lights then line up with the pad and land. None of this stooging around trying to maintain visual contact even with NVG. Nothing there to stay visual on anyway.

Weather shouldn't have been a problem, viz was reported as 10 miles in light rain, but you've got good gear, two pilots, planned safe route, redundant navigation. As Arcal76 points out, it isn't an inadvertent IMC situation, you don't expect to be able to see anything after takeoff so you fly it like IFR.

.7 miles from takeoff would be just a little over 30 seconds after lifting.

[SASless]

Like IFR but without Alternates but not IFR although flying on Instruments the whole way....no NVG's....interesting concept. Very similar to Night VFR over unlit areas of the USA....less the NVG's as pretty commonly used down South.

What kind of Instrument Approaches available in the area mentioned?

Would having NVG's be an improvement?

[havoc]

Thanks for the insight into the night operations.

[malabo]

Both Moosonee and Attawapiskat have conventional (NDB/VOR) and RNAV/GNSS approaches, lights on the runway. MOCA is only 1400', 120nm run. Not much difference night VFR or IFR if the ceiling is half reasonable. Would NVG help? Maybe if the crew couldn't keep it right side up on instruments, but that's pretty unlikely given their experience, and they attend the sim at WPB annually. 76 is a pretty sweet IFR platform.

[RL77CHC]

Thoughts and prayers are with the families.

Everything really sounds like a CFIT accident so far. Dark night, no reference, accident happened just after departing. The S76's IFR capabilities and equipment don't play a role during this critical part of the flight.

Having flown Air Ambulance both for CHL up north and Helijet out west there's nothing to see on these blackhole departures. Rotating into the ink from a towering takeoff and then transitioning to instruments in a nose down attitude with little airspeed and height the margin for error is very small. It's challenging for the most experienced crews.

May they all rest in peace...........

[Steve76]

Coming off the end of the moose runway at night and in the **** one of the toughest moments in rotary wing aviation. I don't have the balls to do it any more and definitely not in the analogue A model 76. Guys flying up there are well lead and developed up to Captain - it's not a workplace that tolerates failure and I'm sorry for the families and for all the ornge crews. There is no better IFR/NVFR operation on planet earth.

[pilot and apprentice]

This tragic accident hits far too close to home. No anonymous internet condolences from me, but I am saddened to see more families touched by tragedy in our industry. Every person we lose is too many.

===============

CADORS: Report (http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/CADORS-SCREAQ/rd.aspx?cno%3d%26dtef%3d2013-05-30%26dtet%3d2013-06-01%26otp%3d1%26ftop%3d%253e%253d%26ftno%3d0%26ijop%3d%253e%2 53d%26ijno%3d0%26olc%3d%26prv%3d-1%26rgn%3d-1%26tsbno%3d%26tsbi%3d-1%26arno%3d%26ocatno%3d%26ocatop%3d1%26oevtno%3d%26oevtop%3d 1%26aevtno%3d%26aevtop%3d1%26fltno%3d%26fltr%3d-1%26cars%3d-1%26acat%3d-1%26nar%3d%26aiddl%3d-1%26aidxt%3d%26optdl%3d-1%26optxt%3d%26mkdl%3d-1%26mkxt%3d%26mdldl%3d-1%26mdlxt%3d%26rt%3dQR%26hypl%3dy%26cnum%3d2013O1350)

I can't recall what avionics and autopilot fit IMY had installed. What I do recall, the 76A's had a large variance from phase II/III up to fully coupled Sperry AP's with little standardization. As a quick read through this thread already reveals, not everyone has the same idea of what kit was onboard.

Malabo, I do not recall any of those machines having dual 530's. Has the fit been improved that much over the last few years?

===============

SAS, I would say that in the northern bases, NVG would be more helpful than the south. A lot more of the areas lacking cultural lighting so even a very high overcast can reduce ground references to essentially zero. It is also seasonal as in the northern summer, dark becomes more relative and shorter. It's not the arctic circle by any means, but better.

That operation does not do 'scene calls' (unprepared sites) at night, only airports and approved helipads. The province of Ontario has for many years created a very good infrastructure to support the EMS operations. Dispatch is integrated with all other ambulance resources: airplane, helicopter, land vehicles, etc. A very good system.

[SASless]

Having a fully slaved three or four axis Autopilot sure makes for a better situation than the mixed bag of Phase II/III non-Slaved SAS system that the early A's came out with. The mixed bag/non-standard Cockpit situation is also an extra burden that need not be tolerated.

Look back to the Air Methods Bell 412 Crash at Bluefield WV, for why that is so important. Four Fatalities in that one too. That was the Winston-Salem Baptist Hospital Crash that I am thinking of that had that as a significant finding.

[pilot and apprentice]

As I said, I've been gone some years, so I'm looking forward to finding out if the situation is the same or has changed about the variable fits.

I agree about the increased risk of those fleets.

[tottigol]

My most heartfelt condolences to the ORNGE community.

[helmet fire]

My thoughts and condolences to the community at ORNGE and the families and loved ones of those who perished on their way to make a difference to other lives and other families.
R.I.P.

[crispyking]

Here's a list of C-GIMY's equipment from an (undated) sales brochure:
International Aviation Marketing Ltd. : s76a sn 760055 (http://bradshaen.com/s76a-sn-760055.html)
(Duplicated here in case it goes offline):

Equipment List
IFR
Complete EMS Interior
One Sliding and One Hinged Door
Main Rotor Brake
Dual Controls
Heated Glass Windshield
Two (2) Controllable Search Lights
Engine Inlet Snow Protector
Emergency Floats
Bleed Air Cabin Heating System
Pulselight Recognition Lights
Tail Strobe Light

Avionics
Phase II DAFCS
Bendix/King KLN 900 GPS
Shadin F/ADC 200 Air Data Computer
Dual Astronautics RD650H ADI
King KDF 605 ADF
King DME KNR 630
King KRA 405 Rad Alt
Bendix RS 611 Color Weather Radar
Dual King KTA 905 Comms
Dual Sandel EHSI SN3380
Collins VHF-20 Comm
King KNR 630 Nav
MD 4300-412 Standby Altitude Indicator
Dual NAT N301A-519 Audio Panels
King KXP 755 Transponder
Penny & Giles Flight Recorder D51615-102
Pointer 4000 ELT
NAT VHF-FM Comm NTX138
NAT UHF-FM Comm NT450
3 x NAT AA95-705 ICS
Iridium Sat Phone/Flight Tracking S200-011


And a TSB photo of the accident site:
Aerial view of the Ornge helicopter accident site in Moosonee, Ontario | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsbcanada/8905115541)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5457/8905115541_1dcd056712_c.jpg

Seems incredible an S76 can cut such a swath through the trees.

[Safeway]

Night departures with no ambient lighting in the vicinity, no visual cues, no horizon means you are relying on instrumentation and a procedure (power settings, attitude changes) from hover to initial forward acceleration then when a climb is established usually a slight change to pitch followed by close monitoring the instruments by both Pilots not distracted by anybody or anything until a positive rate of climb is established and airspeed is alive. Never easy and never assumed.

Below "min IMC" speed the $64 question is this.....if the aircraft is not certified for instrument flight below a certain speed (because its "behavioral aspects" are usually sloppy at slow speed), and the conditions as described above are applicable, where does that leave the Pilot flying?

This is not to assume anything regards this CFIT accident.

I just pose the question.

Thoughts are with the families and crews of this one.

Night departures without enhanced vision (read usually NVG's) leaves the crew without a key human sensor "enabled/active".....looking into the night. I humbly suggest NVG's would be a big advantage in these departures, as well in an emergency during flight en route.

[mediumman]

It is a sad day for all in aviation and health care haven lost dear friends. My prayers and thought go out to the families.

[Vertical Freedom]

Shocked to loose Aviator Brothers again, this way & in such big sophisticated twin :confused:

Heartfelt condolences to the surviving Family & Friends

Om

[albatross]

"Seems incredible an S76 can cut such a swath through the trees."

Just my opinion but I think that you will find that the "swath through the trees" is actually a bulldozer track cut to the actual impact site.

Just FYI about the airport Home (http://www.moosoneeairport.com/Home.html)

The Moosonee Airport is located 3 kilometres northwest of the Town of Moosonee and occupies a land area of approximately 212 hectares. The airport serves as a point of call for air carriers offering scheduled passenger service; and services both private and commercial helicopter and fixed-wing aircraft operators located on site.

This airport is owned and operated by The Corporation of the Town of Moosonee. The Airport Certificate is held on behalf of the town by the Airport Manager; and is maintained in the Airport Manager's office at Moosonee Airport.

Moosonee Airport is operational 24 hours per day, 7 days per week; and is capable of supporting both VFR and IFR operations. The critical aircraft for the primary runway is the HS748.

The manoeuvring area consists of two intersecting runways two taxiways, and a public apron. The primary runway (06-24) is 3999 feet long by 100 feet wide asphalt. The secondary runway (14-32) is 3500 feet (approximately half paved and half gravel) by 100 feet wide.

Moosonee Airport has operational staff on site 10 hours per day, Monday to Friday, excluding statutory holidays. Normal working hours are 7:00 am to 5:00 pm local time Monday to Friday.

NavCanada maintains a Flight Service Station (FSS) located at the Timmins Airport, operating 07:00 - 21:00 - 7 days per week. As part of the Letter of Agreement with NavCanada, FSS personnel refer requests for authorization to the Airport Manager or his designate if there is any requirement for special procedures or conditions on the airport. FSS authorities and/or procedures are also identified in the Emergency Response Plan.

Call-out procedures have been established for services outside of regular working hours. A call out list has been established and posted with the Flight Service Station. The maintenance person on duty has been delegated all necessary authorities to act on behalf of the Airport Manager in his/her absence.

[havoc]

The swath of trees cleared is apparently from the S-76 (405 metres x 125 metres)

ORNGE helicopter crash: Transportation Safety Board finishes examining crash site | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/02/ornge_helicopter_crash_transportation_safety_board_finishes_ examining_crash_site.html)


MOOSONEE, ONT.—Transportation Safety Board of Canada investigators have finished examining the site of an ORNGE helicopter crash in Moosonee, Ont., that claimed the lives of all four crew members on board.

Investigators plan to take their notes, pictures and video back to labs in Ottawa and Toronto, where they will piece together exactly how and why an experienced crew crashed only 850 metres from where the chopper took off early Friday.

They’ve also recovered the helicopter’s cockpit voice recorder, a rectangular, orange box that starts recording audio as soon as power is turned on in a helicopter. It’s been sent to Ottawa for analysis.

“We’re fairly confident if there is a good recording, if it’s operating and functional, that we will be able to get something from it,” lead investigator Daryl Collins told the Star.

Investigators have pieced together what happened to the chopper that night. They say it took off from the runway, made a left-hand turn, went into some trees and started descending down to the ground fast.

The helicopter hit the ground in an area of dense, rough terrain close to the airport, creating a strip of destruction 405 metres wide by 125 metres long from where the plane first hit the ground to where most of the wreckage sits now. The site is littered with debris from trees the helicopter hit on its way down.

What isn’t clear is why the chopper crashed. Investigators are trying to figure out if there were mechanical problems with the helicopter, a 33-year-old Sikorsky S-76, or if human error is to blame, for example. According to a statement by ORNGE CEO and president Dr. Andrew McCallum, the weather that night “was adequate for the mission being flown” and the helicopter had been regularly inspected.

Another factor investigators are considering is the darkness the helicopter flew into when it took off from the airport.

Sky and ground may have blurred into a curtain of darkness, creating a “black hole” effect that could have caused disorientation.

Answers to these questions could take up to a year to find, Collins says.

In the meantime, a local company will start cleaning up the helicopter wreckage, preserving it all until the Transportation Safety Board investigation is finished.

The bodies of pilot Capt. Don Filliter, first officer Jacques Dupuy, and medics Chris Snowball and Dustin Dagenais have been removed from the scene and are being examined.

People in Moosonee, a small town of 3,500 on the James Bay coast, rely on air travel to get in and out of town. The community is only accessible from the south by plane and train.

ORNGE is also a key component of the town. People rely on the service not only to get to regional hospitals in the case of an emergency, but also as a major employer.

In a community where everyone knows everyone else by face, a tragedy like this hits hard. It’s the third devastation in the town in less than a year. The Moosonee Health Centre, the town’s clinic, was destroyed in a fire in December. And many residents had to evacuate their homes due to flooding this past spring.

On Saturday night, hundreds gathered for a candlelight vigil on the main street of Moosonee, where you can find the town’s only bank, grocery store, bar and restaurant.

Mourners used whatever they could find, from Styrofoam cups to tin plates, to build makeshift candle holders. They then walked along Moosonee’s wet, muddy and potholed roads, holding the candles in memory of the four men who died in the crash.

Residents have also been raising money to donate to the victims’ families.

“Usually the tragedy is on the outside of the [Emergency Medical Services] world and we are the ones there to help,” John McIntosh, director of James Bay Ambulance, said Saturday.

“This time, the tragedy is in the EMS world and it’s the community that’s helping us.”

Dagenais lived in the community full-time for five years, making his home across the river in Moose Factory.

His friends have set up a trust fund for his wife, Josée Cousineau, and their 10-month-old daughter, Névia.

[albatross]

"The swath of trees cleared is apparently from the S-76 (405 metres x 125 metres)"

I find it a little mind boggling that an 10500 lbs helicopter could cause the damage shown in the photo.
I would understand a helicopter in a slow descent starting to contact/clip tree tops a considerable distance from the impact site but causing a swath like that shown-don't think so.
Also the reporter says the swath is 405 Meters wide and 125 long. A misprint I assume.
Anyhow it sure looks like a tractor trail to me and I have seen a lot of tractor trails. Notice all the debarked trees on the ground and trees pushed off to the left and right.
Of course I could be wrong - I often am.

[skadi]

405m wide! and 125m long????
What kind of impact was that? Even if they inadvertendly mixed up width with longitude, an S76 could hardly cut a strip of 125m width. Perhaps they were confused with feet and meters? 405 ft long and 125ft wide, that would made sense for me and would still indicate a heavy impact!

skadi

[John R81]

Misprint? Perhaps 40.5m wide? I don't fly one but I think the main rotor blades are 44ft so that makes a disc of about 27m diameter? (a little more due to the head).

[skadi]

Misprint? Perhaps 40.5m wide? I don't fly one but I think the main rotor blades are 44ft so that makes a disc of about 27m diameter? (a little more due to the head). S76A mainrotor disc diameter is 44ft ( 13,41m ), overall length rotors turning is 52ft 6'' ( 16m )

skadi

[Outwest]

I'm pretty certain that's not a bulldozer track. That is standing water you see there and at this time of year that would be incredibly soft ground, a cat would leave huge ruts crawling in that stuff.

Disregarding the reported swath numbers (I doubt they are correct) I'm sure that one of you who have worked up there could tell us what the height of the trees are around the airport. I think it might be an illusion created by assuming the trees are larger than they actually are.

Regardless, condolences to all who are suffering from this loss........

[John R81]

Skadi - thanks.

[JimL]

They’ve also recovered the helicopter’s cockpit voice recorder, a rectangular, orange box that starts recording audio as soon as power is turned on in a helicopter. It’s been sent to Ottawa for analysis.

The parts list published by 'crispyking' indicates that this is a MPFR CVR/FDR; hopefully it is recording more than just audio.

Jim

[SASless]

PHI EMS lost an S-76A a few years ago.....in somewhat similar circumstances (reduced Vis....no Horzion at night).


http://flightsafety.org/hs/hs_mar-apr03.pdf

[Chairmanofthebored]

Obviously two very inexperienced guys up there. The Captain started in March 2013, the FO in August 2012. The FO's first IFR job and no comments on the Captains S76 or IFR experience, SOP's historically for this base, we put the new guys in the worst base with the hardest flying available and expect miracles.

[climbingflyer]

Chairmanoftheboard,
'OBVIOUSLY' you do not have the right facts. The Captain was a high time and highly experienced pilot with many years here in the north or as you put it 'worst base and hardest flying available' (I disagree with the statement as well)
Not only did he have alot of experience in the north, both day and night flying he has also been on the 76 and ambulance for years!!!!!!! He was far from a new guy.

[rotornut]

"Seems incredible an S76 can cut such a swath through the trees."


I recall that the trees up there are not very big. I've heard them called "little sticks". So I think it's quite possible that the S-76 cut them down.

[r22captain]

Mechanical Ruled out........

I'd say there was something quite obvious on that CVR
No mechanical problems in fatal Ornge crash: investigators - Sudbury - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/story/2013/06/04/sby-transportation-safety-board-sudbury-moosonee-fatal-helicopter-crash-voice-recorder.html)

[SASless]

Climbing Flyer,

This news report shows the two Pilots were new to ORNGE....and one would question the amount of time they had to settle into the system, aircraft, and Base.

Perhaps there is something to what CotB said about their being new to the job.

Paramedic who died told father Ornge helicopters 'well-maintained' - Sudbury - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/story/2013/06/03/sby-sudbury-pilots-ornge-crash-safety-concerns.html)

[[email protected]]

Although the equipment list mentions a rad alt - it doesn't mention if there are 2, one for each pilot or if there are bugs with attention-getter lights and/or an audio alarm for low height.

What are the rad alt setting procedures in this operation?

Departing on instruments in those conditions sounds as hazardous as departing from a ship in the dark without NVG - extremely easy to become disorientated in the low-speed instrument environment.

[SASless]

Crab,

If you look at the map or Sat Photo of the town/airport....a departure can be made so there are light references but not for long (contingent to wind direction)....otherwise it is simply a very dark area for many miles to the destination which is a very small settlement too that is a very small bunch of lights in a sea of darkness.

NVG's would greatly improve the Safety of that Operation....as using them is the only way to fly in the dark. The Mark I Eyeball just doesn't compare to NVG's for seeing in the dark. As you well know. There is not enough Carrot Juice in this World to enhance normal vision to compare with NVG's.

Is the CAA/EASA going to allow UK Operators to use NVG's at Night when doing the EMS/Air Ambulance mission?

[pilot and apprentice]

SAS and CotB, it is possible you guys are correctly reading the reports and CF is correct. I don't know the particulars but this operation was run for decades by Canadian Helicopters, and the captain may have flown with them. Again, I don't know the truth but rather pointing out that neither do most of us here.

Ultimately, it means only a little. Even years of experience in the night VFR/IFR environment does not make anyone immune from a bad day. Time in does not by itself prevent CFIT.
=====================

The measurements on the swath in the trees are ridiculously out of whack. Anyone can use tree height and compare it to the width of the cut. I doubt the trees are 125 meters high. More likely 30-50 feet, maybe less.
=====================

I sometimes ask myself why I keep getting into these discussions on here. I think it is because there is a whole new generation that uses the online world as their coffee table, their kitchen, their corner bar and bartender. We need to weed out the crap for them, as we have no choice.
=====================

When I flew on this operation, better than a decade ago, I was so very fortunate to receive my training at the hands of some incredibly experienced pilots. These men took the time to show me what the 76A could and could not do, how to use every tool the system had in it to get the job done, and how to remember that in the end we were not 'heroes' but rather drivers. Use every tool as long as it was safe and legal.

Sadly, most of those old hands are gone now. Moved on for many reasons but the turmoil at CHL/Ornge hasn't helped.

To borrow from another story, when I arrived on base there were a lot of Zeke's, and because they truly cared about the job we did, they went out of their way to make absolutely certain I would become an old Brad, not a Timothy. Thanks guys.

[albatross]

7793 Fundraiser | Teespring (http://teespring.com/7793)

[SASless]

Even years of experience in the night VFR/IFR environment does not make anyone immune from a bad day.


So very true....The Air as is the Sea, is a very unforgiving thing.

I especially like your comment about "being" Drivers.....not Heroes.

Way too many forget that and allow themselves to find trouble that could be avoided if one adhered to the notion they were out there to provide safe and efficient Medical Transportation services and not out there "saving lives".

[Arcal76]

I know I should stay out of this but I should bring some comments!

Pilot and apprentice is wright. In the past we were doing our training directly on the aircraft and we were able to see what the aircraft was able to do which was very important on the underpower 76A. We went from the aircraft to the A sim from Flight Safety to their B sim to now the S76 C+:ugh: from rotorsim. The training done now on the S76 is crap since it has nothing to do with a S76A:mad:. All new pilots have no clue about single engine performance even it was not the problem in this case.

We lost a lot of pilots due to the Ornge change which could not be worst, so many very experienced guys who have here for 15-20 years left during the last 2 years.

And Pilot and apprentice is also right about all people commenting about something they don't know. It is sometimes very painful to read what some people are saying when they do not have a clue about what we are doing. That' why I am staying away from most comment to avoid to get mad:ugh:.

We know it is a CFIT, we don't know why and only the CVR will tell us and answer very important question.

Don was working with CHL before part-time and left when Ornge arrived. He came back with us just recently. As I said before, as soon as you leave the runway, it is an instrument flight, it does not matter if the Vis is 1 SM or 10 SM, you don't see anything anyway. GIMY was a phase 2, so you have to fly it manually.
NVG's have been ruled out because of training cost, we 16 aircrafts, 84 pilots to cover Ontario, so it is a big deal on the cost side.

[SASless]

Thank you for the reasoned input.....and helping describe the situation ORNGE Flight Crews are confronted with in light of Managment decisions about Training and Equipment.

Definitely sorry to hear of the loss of people you knew and worked with....and understand all too well how that feels having lost Friends myself in the past.

[snotcicles]

Since this is a "rumour" site, it has been mentioned rime ice was a potential contributor. A very sad event regardless the reason.

[SASless]

Awfully short flight for Icing to be such a problem.....anyone got the weather for the time of the crash?

Had the aircraft been setting outside in the freezing drizzle or something?

[snotcicles]

I can't verify but I heard -3c and rain.

[sunnywa]

From what Arcal 76 has mentioned in his post, NVG was ruled out due to cost. What management always fails to understand that 'affordable safety' is a nice phrase, but one accident that could (possibly) been have avoided due to (in this case) NVG would have paid for the NVG installation and training for the next 50 years. And lives would have been saved.
My condolences to the families and to ORNG.

[[email protected]]

Absolutely right sunnywa:ok:

[John R81]

Humans are a tribal species. One consequence of our social bonding is to naturally take a 'them and us' approach to any misfortune.

Suppose (not this time, possibly) that a crash happens that would not have happened with NVG + appropriate training:

Is it management's fault for not proviing NVG which could have reduced risk?
Or

Is it the commander / pilots fault that given the equipment level and training the task should not have been attempted?

In the real world decisions have to be made in the light of cost. It's called management. The decision to launch should be made based on all of the information available at the time of potential launch, including the consequences of decisions made in the light of cost; taking a 'Zeke'. approach. Once launched, it would be a cop-out to blame something (such as lack of NVG) that was known from the outset.

I think the best inputs so far have leaned towards the ' drivers not heros' and 'safe and efficient Medical Transportation'. If you take that to heart, then a bus driver crashing because he tried to corner like a Porsche can't blame management for not giving him a Porsche.

[albatross]

So anyone here purchased a T shirt?

7793 Fundraiser | Teespring (http://teespring.com/7793)

[SASless]

Are the folks in the UK paying attention here....they are about to embark on this Night Flying HEMS thing....or at least seem to think they are. Every one of these Tragedies serve up Lessons Learned....the key is for others to learn from them as repeating other's mistakes is not the way to go.

[Arcal76]

I forgot this one yesterday.......
We are not heroes :mad: Our job is to provide a service, safe and efficient. I am an helicopter pilot doing a specific job. I am not here to kill 4 people to try to save one. It is retarded and unacceptable. This "heroes and saving life stuff" is a recipe for disaster when people decide to push their limits to the extreme and break any possible rule.
We have seen that a lot during the last 10 years.
I have been in EMS for 16 years and I am not a hero. I am tired of this media stuff, they don't understand anything :ugh:

And to finish: we are only human, we try to excel, to do our best. But human are human, we do mistakes and we do have bad days. I am sure anybody on this website had bad days when they were not very efficient or realize that it could have been a catastrophe in certain circumstances, it does not matter how many thousand hours you have....

[SASless]

Well Said!:D

[Thomas coupling]

SASless: I hesitate to comment that we are slightly different here in the UK for several reasons:

The CAA are very risk averse in the UK [Some might say they suffocate aviation in some areas]. However, I stand corrected but our accident rate in public service aviation is very good compared to 'most' other countries around the world. Excuse the pun - but this is not by accident.....the CAA may have something to do with it.
Secondly, we are a tiny geographical nation. You can't fly far without bumping into serious ambient lighting. The CAA are fully aware of this and tailor the rules accordingly.
Operating under NVG requires the pilot to maintain his/her normal visual references based on ambient lighting in the event the goggles fail. You are NOT allowed to operate goggles where both tubes have a common power source and you cannot go where manual reversion leaves you up a valley with no visual refs.
And as I said earlier - not much of GB has many dark satanic areas left!

That is why the CAA are a little more relaxed over night HEMS. It is coming, as we speak. Required visual references in addition to the lack of corporate pressure to make a buck ambulance chasing - adds atleast two further layers of safety between flying and crashing.

As I said before - you guys who fly long routes (negative ambient lighting) in the US and/or Aussie land - hats off to you guys, can't think of anything more demanding in aviation than trying to stay wings level (IMC)with poorly equipped cabs. I have been there many many times and it makes your skin creep.:eek:

[SASless]

I hate to ask.....but what sort of patient were they dispatched to pick up? What kind of medical problem did the patient have?

Could the flight have waited till daylight....after all it is getting light pretty early this time of the year.....unlike say February?

[Adroight]

Aussie land - hats off to you guys, can't think of anything more demanding in aviation than trying to stay wings level (IMC)with poorly equipped cabs. I have been there many many times and it makes your skin creep.

I would not call an IFR AW139 with 3 crewmembers all on NVG poorly equipped. Australia are light years ahead of most countries when it comes to HEMS. Oh yes - and they fly SAR tasks as well.

[Winnie]

@ SASless, as far as I know this was a patient transfer, airport to airport.

Probably not considered particularily risky, and a mission that would probably have been done multiple times a week.

Why this happened THIS time is the big question.

The machines are equipped to standards so why did this happen again, with a well trained crew...

H.

[bladegrip]

Arcal, SASless,

ROUTINE excellence is heroic! Emphasis on routine...

[SASless]

Winnie....the question I posed refers to the "Urgency" not the Type of tasking.

Airport to Airport would make an Airplane the better choice.

Most Patient Transfers can wait for daylight....but where this happened the level of medical care available at the location where the Patient was located ...may play a role in raising the Urgency.

I have flown in some awful weather at night to fetch some fellow who had a broken arm or lacerations....while painful...few folks die of broken arms or wounds that are not bleeding........if you get my point.

If I recall properly....the Patient was fetched by Airplane following the crash.

So...it would be interesting to know exactly what the situation was re the Patient to see if Ornge uses some sort of filter to determine if an aircraft is launched or if they respond to every request without assessing the priority somehow.

[pilot and apprentice]

SAS: I'll state some obvious background first.

The Ornge operation runs as an ambulance with a rotor, not an emergency service per se. Just as an ambulance may be rushing to the scene of an accident it may also be tasked with routinely shuttling patients between hospitals.

Because of the massive geographic area covered, many taskings to remote areas/communities were to take a patient from a land ambulance (that responded to the initial call) to allow that asset to return to active service rather than being held up for hours traveling to the nearest [appropriate] medical facility. The government has created a wonderful infrastructure of helipads along highways, in remote communities, and hospital pads to aid this way of doing business. A helicopter may be used in lieu of a plane to avoid an ambulance ride at each end to get to and from the airports.

Most Patient Transfers can wait for daylight....
In the days when I was there, a busy base will likely spend the day shift responding to 'emergency' or scene calls and the quieter night shift conducting transfers. The Ministry of Health dispatch had land, rotary, and airplane assets at their disposal and may launch more than one asset to a critical accident/emergency or pick and choose an asset as they saw fit.

They prioritized their calls and the helicopter could be retasked to a higher priority call mid flight. The crew was never informed of patient details prior to accepting a call. We would be given a location of pickup and destination and then decided if the flight was feasible.

I'll add that, in my opinion, NVFR and IFR helicopter operations were not dangerous in themselves. Rather, they had different risks to be managed and deserved respect.

[RL77CHC]

Very well described Pilot and Apprentice.

In British Columbia, the ALS crews or advanced life support, tasked to the scene call aircraft had an enormous amount of training. Seven years plus of trauma & medical training on top of their practical experience.

The majority of the Doctors at the small hospitals were very relieved to see the ALS crew when a patient turned critical and needed an expedited transfer to a facility offering a high level of care.

It wasn't uncommon for the paramedics to assist our Doctors in the ER when a higher care facility wasn't an option. I would imagine the paramedics are no different in Ontario.

As for the flying, we never thought twice about IFR when I used to fly on the Ambulance. Check the Metar/TAF, freezing levels, make sure you have a legal first and second alternate, file your flight plan and go.

I can't think of a single Captain on the operation that was any different. The S76A is an incredible IFR platform. Given the choice of low level, marginal wx on NVG's or hand flying at 4000 feet in solid IMC, the latter is much less stressful.

[skadi]

The crash happened within the first minute of the flight:

ORNGE helicopter crash: Investigator sketches out final minute | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/06/ornge_helicopter_crash_investigator_sketches_out_final_minut e.html)

skadi

[Outwest]

More accurate and reasonable numbers now on the swath dimensions...as I mentioned earlier the trees are probably only about 5 or 6 meters high there.

[rotornut]

ORNGE suspends night flights at remote sites across Ontario | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/15/ornge_suspends_night_flights_at_remote_sites_across_ontario. html)

[[email protected]]

Perhaps ORNGE should just equip their crews with NVG if they want to make things safer.

Out of interest I was conducting some flyaway practice the other night from a 200' cliff-winching situation with me on NVG and the other pilot without. Although he could see the outline of the cliffs and the horizon, he struggled to maintain an acceleration to above 30 kts because he was flying into a black hole of no references (the sea). With NVG, not only did I have a much better view of the cliffs and an excellent horizon but I could see texture on the water which gave me visual speed and height cues to back up the instrument indications.

Now we used to fly all sorts of non-NVG approaches back in the 80s, to Nato Ts, upturned buckets with dayglo tape on, cans of burning kerosene and guys holding their torches and YES, they were manageable (with care and lots of training) but given the choice between returning to those techniques and using NVG then goggles are an absolute no-brainer.

[nomorehelosforme]

Surely these should be standard issue to any EMS crew worldwide, employers and clients need to look at the benefits and not initial costs!

[SASless]

NVG's is the ONLY way to fly Night.....any other way and you are only playing Blind Man's Bluff!

[Devil 49]

NVGs for any night VFR flight beyond high cultural lighting areas! The difference between aided night and unaided is not quite night and day, but nearly so. I can see farther at night aided than I can most days, almost too much...

[pilot and apprentice]

I've hesitated to weigh in on this as I agree that NVG's are a great tool and make NVFR both safer and easier. They would also add another big cost to an operation that has spent a lot of money to stay out of the flight environment that NVG's are designed for.

The question I will pose is: are those of you saying to just buy the NVG's actually looking at the job that Ornge does?

In my mind, it is the same as saying that no one should be conducting IFR unless they have synthetic vision. It would make the acquisition of visual reference much easier and increase SA.

The Ornge operation is only conducting night operations to established helipads/LZ's or airports. All are marked with lights or retroreflective cones. The SOP's were clear and appropriate to the role.

I would wager that if an objective and dispassionate assessment is made of what effect NVG's would have on the Ornge role, as it now stands, the result would be minimal. That would change if there was a need to respond to unprepared sites, navigate en route below MOCA, etc.

NVG's have their advantages, their limitations, and their place. STARS makes good use of them in western Canada to allow VFR navigation in higher terrain, but that terrain is not an issue in Ontario. Horses for courses.

[Shawn Coyle]

No sooner had my article on 'No such thing as Night VFR' gone to Skies magazine than this accident happened.
NVGs make the difference - without them it's impossible to have 'visual' conditions away from cultural lighting.

[SASless]

PA,

I got my NVG experience in a dark corner of the world....that is well known for Haze. We used them for all Night Operations from one skid roof top landings to cruising around snooping on folks with FLIR and ordinary Vanilla Night Flying.

I have landed in amongst the Piney Woods to unlit, unprepared, natural clearings during nights with overcasts and minimal celestrial lighting....using no external lights of any kind (the worst possible situation). At a hover....with the naked eye....one could not make out the ground or trees...but we could operate quite safely on the NVG's.

NVG's are worth the investment for any....any.....Night Flying. Add a IR Filter to your Night Sun and it gets even better. Spotting Light sources with NVG's is amazing. We watched the strobes of Airliners from well over two hundred miles away. Flashlights shine like Beacons.

NVG's have their limitations....but I will gladly accept 20/40 vision with a 40 degree arc of view over being nearly blind at night.....anytime!

You keep you head and eyes moving and it is simply amazing how much you can see....what you can see.... that you cannot and will not see without the NVG's.

Add them to a fully IFR Aircraft and Crew and that is as safe as you can get equipment wise. That would allow ORNGE to return to doing what they did before the recent change and do so safely.

[pilot and apprentice]

SAS, I agree with all you say about NVG's. But they would not be going back to what they did...they never did it. That was my point.

Like all these discussions, more kit and crew is better.

[[email protected]]

PandA, you are correct that 99% of the ORNGE operation probably wouldn't benefit massively from NVG because the transit and approach phases are safe enough the way they have been flown.

But, that 1% which is the night, unaided transition from the hover to the IFR cruise is where NVG would make a huge difference - low speed IFR flight is never good in a helicopter (without the appropriate autopilot transition modes) but that is what the crews are being asked to do on a regular basis on departure and that is where this sad (but seemingly avoidable) accident happened.

[ralphmalph]

I love NVG. But in this case was there a well lit HLS with markers and clearway....?

i'm not sure NVG do much in the first few seconds after takeoff unless you take off from an NVG pad....

Otherwise you are gashing the "flip your goggs down" routine we all did in NI with luck...

Either use a properly lit HLS.....or go black.

Mixing it is bad news.

(yes I know that cultural lights are always a factor.....but we can minimise where we can the risk of stray light on NVS)

[SASless]

The Ornge operation is only conducting night operations to established helipads/LZ's or airports. All are marked with lights or retroreflective cones.

If those lights and "reflective cones" shine to the MK 1 Eye....imagine how they stand out to the NVG'd eye! Plus....remember you can see everything else around the LZ...and have a horizon to look at while you are doing it.

Again....there is no comparison to the ordinary Eye at night and what NVG's provide.

We talk of the "dark hole" approach....or take off into the black abyss....both go away with the use of NVG's.

What is the cost of this one crash....compared to equipping the Fleet with NVG's?

[Devil 49]

We goggle up before skids up to skids down, it works just fine.
The darker and more featureless the terrain is, the greater the benefit of NVGs for VFR operations.
I am assured that it can be too dark for NVGs. That is definitely not VFR conditions, except to a lawyer. I'm a pilot.

[skadi]

Pilot resignations hit ORNGE air ambulances | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/27/pilot_resignations_hit_ornge_air_ambulances.html)

skadi

[SASless]

Tick....Tick....Tick......Tick!

Odd...one combines Government and Corrupt Management....turn a blind eye to what is going on....and we are surprised the result is all bad?

Gee....what were we thinking?

My heart goes out to the good folk at Ornge who are paying a price for the wrong done by their Senior Management in days gone bye....and can only remind them to hold to the safe side of doing things....no matter how much pressure they get to do otherwise.

The Spot Light is shining directly upon the Operation now....hang in there and wait for the positive changes that are bound to be coming. Just make sure you are part of the Solution and not part of the Problem while this goes on.

[Arcal76]

All our flights are not done in black holes area. I think we all understand the advantage of using NVG, we also all understand the cost related to it. We do a lot of night flight, 1/3 of my flying time is done at night.... But we also go to many area where we have good reference with many lights around. Depending which base you are working, you do a lot of black hole area or little. So, yes NVG are good but I don't believe we will get it because of the cost related to it.

We have many problems with Ornge related to the fact that they do not have the knowledge they should have. They think we are an airline operation??.?. We are not. The press again had to come up to bring our problem out because this is a big political affair. The government new about the Ornge scandal and now they try to save their image by trying to fix it.
It is wrong!! Ornge should have been shut down and a new system should have been started.
It is not the case and now we face this situation again and many are leaving because they can't take it anymore.

Now we face a different problem because when so many pilots are leaving in a short time, to replace them becomes a big problem. The only Sim available is in Whippany and they are booked, 22 hours a day, so to get somebody new takes a lot of time...... And now you hire anybody to fill the seat, we end up with guys coming as copilot with 500 hours of Robinson switching to the AW139?????????
How can you do that??????
We are not a school and you create a bad environment with low level crew.
Our IFR operation has been shut down and we all believe it was done by Transport Canada, not voluntary by Ornge, they will never do that.

So, we have multiple problems and nobody knows how it is gone be fixed.
Ornge is saying they are working on it, what the hell do they know about helicopters?????????????????????????????????????????!

[tDawe]

Arcal76,

To clarify, do you mean that ORNGE's O.C. No longer includes IFR operations for the AW139 or SK76? Or has the company just asked pilots to suspend IFR operations for the time being?

[arismount]

Can't afford NVG's at $10K U.S. per set? Well, let's see: One equipped S-76, approximately $5M U.S.; 4 (at a minimum) lawsuits at $2M U.S. apiece; loss of good will (??? $$$)...

In round terms, that's $13 million Bucks just for starters.

NVG's, $10K per set, NVG aircraft mods, $20K per ship, training at $5K per pilot...that's $40K to get a ship and crew ready on the line. Dividing, it seems like that $13 million loss could provide 325 crewed and equipped aircraft.

Any CEO who still thinks NVG operations are too expensive should not be a CEO, he should be a college freshman retaking Accounting 101.

[Devil 49]

I started doing nights in Vietnam. Nap of the earth pilotage operations, all the way up to radar vectors to "targets" at IFR altitudes.

I started HEMS in 2001, in area that encompasses high cultural lighting urban areas, extensively forested no cultural lighting mountains, and everything in between.

We started operating aided in 2011. It is the single greatest enhancement to night operation safety.

My opinion- if an operator can't afford NVG, they can't afford night operations. My employer agrees, requiring management approval of each and every unaided night operation, and then- only in very, very favorable pre-defined circumstances.

[SASless]

My experience tracks with 49's.....and I whole heartedly endorse his comments.

If you fly after dark....anywhere....go for NVG's....you cannot afford not to do so!

Commonsense tells you it is the right thing to do.

Why would you want to run around either blind or nearly blind when you can open thine eyes and see the light.....so to speak!

[ShyTorque]

Pilot resignations hit ORNGE air ambulances | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/27/pilot_resignations_hit_ornge_air_ambulances.html)

Interesting.....

[Arcal76]

To clarify...
Yes, our IFR was removed because of deficiencies between our training and what is requiered on our OPS manual.
Yes many are leaving for the offshore world. If you can't take it anymore,that's what happen......
They are now talking about a study on NVG's but they already told us that the retrofit for the 139 cost 1 million $, so no hope......
Many are waiting to see if we gone get a new union contract who has expired 3 years ago:ugh: And if we do net get anything good, more will leave:D

[malabo]

A cautious welcome from the offshore world if that's where you all want to head to next. In general our training is pretty good, but be warned that you will be expected to depart an airport at night without NVG. And you will be expected to land back at an airport without NVG. And the tens of thousands of night landings done offshore to a single lit rig in a sea of black ink will all be done without NVG. Same with the rig takeoff, rotating into your feared "black hole" at zero airspeed and just the discipline of procedure, pitch and power to keep you safe - no NVG to help you there either.

Anyway, 200 hr Bristow Academy cadets coming from R22's seem to be able to pick it up without drama or incident, so perhaps the cream of Canadian helicopter IFR can as well.

[SASless]

Gee.....you reckon NVG's might help on those night offshore landings.....the ones that seem to be the ones that helicopters hit the water on every now and then? Any Dolt can land to a lighted IFR Runway without NVG's.

[Devil 49]

The fact that one has VMC ceiling and visibility doesn't mean the conditions are such to meet the challenges involved in maintaining control and safely operating the aircraft visually. If the existing conditions meet VMC requirements, one might still not have adequate visual cue to operate safely. Flat light, featureless terrain on overcast nights, a calm sea offshore without significant surface features are examples of situations where one might have technically legal vis and ceiling that is not sufficient for safe operation.

Real world requirements to operate VFR (at least in the US) are set out in FAR 135.207, "No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter." Which is in addition to VMC minimums. If you don't have sufficient surface reference to safely control the helicopter, you can't operate VFR. Aided night vision doesn't improve the weather, it increases the flight crew's ability to acquire sufficient surface reference.

Yes, there situations that NVGs don't improve. The argument presented that the lack of aided night vision equipment was a cost issue suggests that the operating conditions in the area are such that NVGs would be effective. If this accident is finally attributed to CFIT due to lack of adequate surface reference while operating VFR at night, unaided, that million dollar charge per airframe for NVG will prove a mistaken economic priority for VFR operations.

It's easy to spend money when it not your own, easier still to criticize with benefit of hindsight a management decision. As a pilot, I'd consider the sacrifice of aircraft capability and cost to get the benefit of aided night vision good decision if I was operating outside of high cultural lighting areas.

[Shawn Coyle]

Devil 49
Unfortunately, the rule you quote only applies to Part 135 operations - wish it were in Part 91, the General operating rules.

[hepkat]

Transport Canada questioned by the Standing Committee for Public Accounts. There is some very interesting stuff regarding how Transport Canada views its role in aviation.


Public Account Oct 30 2013 Morning session - YouTube

[Arcal76]

For those who watched this event, it is impressive to see that it took more than one hour and a lot of push from Frank Klees for Transport Canada to admit that the non-compliance found during the inspection would have stop the operation.
The answer given by TC made me laugh when they said that Ornge decide by themselves to stop their pilots to fly until the training was completed.

The reality is:
Ornge did not have any choice and it was better for Ornge to say that they decided to stop some part of their operation until crew would be trained in order to comply with the rules than having TC shutting them down. Of course, in this case, TC would have to provide a lot of justification to the government because shutting down the Air Ambulance after so many scandals will necessary need answers which is completely wrong. There is no reason why the Air Ambulance should have any privilege. If you don't comply with the rule, you should be stopped.
Part of our problems was related to imcomplete training which made our IFR operation suspended in May. Well, TC should have say your IFR ticket is invalided until you fix this problem, but of course, without an IFR ticket we don't fly at night anymore....BIG PROBLEM!!!!!!!!! Since 1/3 of our hours are done at night, TC would have to explain this new reality and I am sure the inspector in charge was not open to do that.......
So, we did no fly iFR during Summer and our IFR was only given back to us after some crew went to do their training on the Sim and finally when TC was able to accept a training done on the aircraft, training completed only during the last 2 weeks.
How great Transport Canada is........

[Perro Rojo]

What Transport Canada did or did not do is a Red Herring, if Orange had complied with the requirements as they exist by regulations and work needs, TC would not have been involved at all.

[SASless]

Ah....but.....if TC had been involved.....Ornge would have been doing the right thing all along now wouldn't they?

[Perro Rojo]

After the fact, Yes, but if Orange had been up to speed in training policy and practice then, No.

[SASless]

Just what does TC really do....if Monitoring Operators is not part of their tasking?

[Shawn Coyle]

Sasless:
What does TC do? Unfortunately (and often) the working level inspectors are ignored. Or the 'working level' inspectors are not qualified.
On a recent trip to a very experienced bush helicopter operator, the complaint was that the last TC visit was done by inspectors who were re-badged flight attendants. The main complaint they had was that there was nowhere to stow the briefcases and backpacks that the passengers brought into the rear seats. The inspectors were demanding these things be provided with proper stowages - in the cabin.

[Arcal76]

I agree with you Shawn.
The problem at TC is huge because of the cuts made during the last couple of years. Inspectors are leaving and not replaced and those left have to take the amount of work left.... Of course it does not work and at the end, there is no good service for anybody.
When the regulator is in this situation, there is no hope to get a good service and no hope for people to do what they should do. It is an open door for auto regulation even TC denied it. And I don't see how it could improve.
So, this monitoring cannot be done properly.

Congratulation for you autorotation book Shawn, it is very interesting !

[ChprSafety]

NVG's are not the only night safety technology available.

[hepkat]

Ornge, Ontario's air ambulance service, faces 17 labour code charges - Toronto - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ornge-ontario-s-air-ambulance-service-faces-17-labour-code-charges-1.2659882)

[hepkat]

The report is finally out.

Aviation Investigation Report A13H0001 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada (http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2013/a13h0001/a13h0001.asp)

[Hot and Hi]

This accident bears a lot of similarities with the much discussed AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk 9151430. Both pilots apparently uncomfortable with IMC flying and consistently avoiding night shifts or related training, thereby foregoing the opportunity to get better at it, in the occurrence flight refuse to apply basic night/IMC flying procedures: Wings level, positive climb, airspeed.

While the criticism concerning the lack of oversight by the operator over the pilots, or even by Transport Canada over the operator (as a post from oleary earlier today here seem to suggest, which by now seem to have been withdrawn) may be valid, the fact remains that in both accidents two pax put their trust into two highly experienced and qualified pilots in front of the best flying machinery money can buy.

While for every night VFR departure one must be prepared to inadvertently enter IMC, here the pilots knew that beyond the airport lights they would enter pitch black darkness. In neither case did the pilots even contemplate the challenges ahead before departure, or follow (above) basic, simple procedures that would have averted a steep yet unnoticed decent, ending with hitting the ground. Note that the aircraft, in both accidents, didn't fly into an unexpected mountain or cable, but after an initial climb descended back down to field elevation where they crashed and burned.

[SASless]

PHI EMS lost a 76 in similar circumstances several years back....crew encountered Fog/Low Cloud immediately after Lift Off and hit the ground with the same results.



https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=38741

[Arcal76]

PHI EMS lost a 76 in similar circumstances several years back....crew encountered Fog/Low Cloud immediately after Lift Off and hit the ground with the same results

Ornge had a choice of 6 S76 for Moosonee and took the one with the lowest equipment. Autopilot and TAWS were available on 3 aircrafts but incompetence and arrogance was their attitude.
Nobody at Transport Canada has the guts to shut down Ornge when it was the only responsible choice for this arrogant company.
Yes, it is a pilot failure but they did not get any help to improve their level. Pilots should know what they are doing and it should not happen but when a company knows that some of their pilots are weak, the company should minimize any possible risk.

[donut king]

PHI EMS lost a 76 in similar circumstances several years back....crew encountered Fog/Low Cloud immediately after Lift Off and hit the ground with the same result

Ornge had a choice of 6 S76 for Moosonee and took the one with the lowest equipment. Autopilot and TAWS were available on 3 aircrafts but incompetence and arrogance was their attitude.
Nobody at Transport Canada has the guts to shut down Ornge when it was the only responsible choice for this arrogant company.
Yes, it is a pilot failure but they did not get any help to improve their level. Pilots should know what they are doing and it should not happen but when a company knows that some of their pilots are weak, the company should minimize any possible risk.

Well said Arcal! ORNGE is not a proper helicopter operator/ company. They are an emergency medicine company with an AOC, run by non helicopter non ambulance people. They've put folks in place that just meet the TC requirement.....but the decision making is done by politically trained and controlled individuals whose job is to protect the government agencies that "effed" up!

They have now thrown money at their inability/ incompetence in running a helicopter/ air ambulance emergency response service. Front line staff are saying the same things that were said before the Moosonee accident. Again, the politico's are not listening. A million $/ 139 to retrofit for NVG's, NVG's and a new 139 itself for the Moosonee base.......around 30-35$ million more on top of 165$ million in air ambulance budget!

Labour charges for employee deaths on the job (which ORNGE is fighting with tax payer funded lawyers) to compound the spending!

You Canadian taxpayers should be livid...........!

[noooby]

It is not a new 139 and it is not owned by Ornge. It is a leased, used 139, that they got at a very favourable rate.

The 139 should be a great leap forward for the Moosonee base and should provide cost savings for Ornge now that they can finally consolidate spares for one type as opposed to supporting two helicopter types.

They probably should have looked at NVG compatibility during the purchase process, but evidently they did not and are now retrofitting. STARS have been operating on NVG's quite happily and safely for years and reap the benefits. Ornge should too!

[green_eyes]

The 139 should be a great leap forward for the Moosonee base and should provide cost savings for Ornge

Couple things are very funny about this statement:

1) A 139 is being leased to literally "leap" across a river (2.45nm according to google earth).

2) The concept of a 139 providing cost savings for anything. :8

STARS have been operating on NVG's quite happily and safely for years and reap the benefits. Ornge should too!

I agree. However, NVGs don't provide benefits (safety) unless they are used properly and the pilots are properly trained. And if Ornge is as incompetent at training as the report suggests, then I feel afraid for what's to come.

Being safe and effective doesn't come from equipment alone. The equipment needs to be paired with a company that has the right culture with the right staff. Nuances in the report seem to suggest that Ornge has many pilots that are competent and saw this whole accident coming. I don't think they are the ones to worry about. I'm more concerned about them putting another new hire in a 139 who gets sucked into bad weather and goes IIMC while low level at night because he wasn't trained on the finer points of flying NVGs.

[tottigol]

ORNGE has historically been going through a large number of pilots. Most of those with experience have left and have been replaced by pilots with mostly "bush" experience, no real IFR and night flying in the last few years, some with only VFR single background.

[noooby]

Perhaps EMS has different costs associated with it than Offshore O&G, but ask CHC (if you can find anyone left!) which is cheaper to operate, a 76C+ or a 139. It ain't the 76. Years of operating them side by side on the same base proved that.

I do realise that an A/A+/A++ is not a C+, but if you match performance with DOC's, it is hard to beat a 139.

[donut king]

Perhaps EMS has different costs associated with it than Offshore O&G, but ask CHC (if you can find anyone left!) which is cheaper to operate, a 76C+ or a 139. It ain't the 76. Years of operating them side by side on the same base proved that.

I do realise that an A/A+/A++ is not a C+, but if you match performance with DOC's, it is hard to beat a 139.
noooby......please provide your numbers re C+ vs 139 DOC?

[noooby]

Talk to the Type Engineers at CHC Global, if there are any left. 76C+ main issue was the engines and the manhours per flying hour.
Even the most loyal 76 mechanics eventually agreed that the 139 needed less manhours to keep it in the air.
They never made it anywhere near TBO and increased the DOC's. C++ helped fix that with the IBF system.

[donut king]

Talk to the Type Engineers at CHC Global, if there are any left. 76C+ main issue was the engines and the manhours per flying hour.
Even the most loyal 76 mechanics eventually agreed that the 139 needed less manhours to keep it in the air.
They never made it anywhere near TBO and increased the DOC's. C++ helped fix that with the IBF system.

Hi noooby! I am in contact with many CHC as well as other operators of C+'s and 139's. Both front line and management. We'd really like to see those numbers/ database that you are referencing from.

[noooby]

Sure thing. Mr Nesbitt had all the info. Not sure where he is now that he was let go. He was the one who showed me the numbers when I was converting from 76 to 139. I don't have any contact with him since he left, but I can ask around and see where he is if you like.

[Arcal76]

How the operating cost between a S76 and an AW139 could be the same??
We have been using both of them and we can tell you that the downtime on the AW139 is horrible.
We have changed 3 MGB since we operate the AW139, had tons of problems and a lots of difficulties to get parts, it is just reality....

The cost in Moosonee will explode for mostly River ops 5 minutes flight.

And now, we gone spend way more time training than working doing calls.

At the end of the day, going that way, do we still need an Air Ambulance in Ontario?

[SASless]

What you need is an Air Ambulance Operator in Ontario.

:uhoh:

[AW4EVER]

HI,
AW169, this is the future for HEMS and other Ops...
AW189 Long range, AW139 SAR.
It is just an opinion..

Cheers,

[tottigol]

Arcal, just a question, and I don't mean to hijack the thread.
why is it just you that screams so loudly from a group of pilots and mechanics that counts perhaps close to 100?
Most of the arguments you bring to the table are just frivolous.
The AW139 may be a tad more exlensive to operate than a bunch of old 76s, of course.

[donut king]

Arcal, just a question, and I don't mean to hijack the thread.
why is it just you that screams so loudly from a group of pilots and mechanics that counts perhaps close to 100?
Most of the arguments you bring to the table are just frivolous.
The AW139 may be a tad more exlensive to operate than a bunch of old 76s, of course.

Arcal is not the only pilot! Just because the rest of the crews aren't blogging on pprune doesn't mean they don't agree with arcal. He seems to be a front line dude in the know. I was a front line guy many moons ago and agree with arcal. Tottigol, were you involved with Ontario HEMS?

[tottigol]

No, I am well aware of the difficulties they have had with overweight aircraft though.
However, considering the distances involved and the avionics capability of the 139, I think it's still the best aircraft for the job, even though not used to its best capabilities.
the Ornge internal politics are their own.

[John R81]

R v 7506406 Canada Inc (2017 ONCJ 750) (https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2017/2017oncj750/2017oncj750.html?resultIndex=2) Ornge air ambulance services were charged with 3 counts under the Labour Code following the air ambulance crash discussed above. All charges were dismissed
The charges were that Ornge

failed to ensure employee safety by failing to provide pilots with a means to maintain visual reference while operating at night leading to the deaths of Donald Mark Filliter and Jacques Dupuy (2 separate charges); and
failed to ensure the health and safety of its employees by failing to provide adequate supervision for daily flight activities at Moosonee by way of eliminating the position of base manager.

On (b), the Crown's position was that Ornge's decision to discontinue the base manager position removed a critical safety-net. The court was unconvinced and dismissed the charge. A centralised scheduling system was used in the industry and senior, experienced pilots and employees collectively filled any gaps.

On (a), Ornge did provide searchlights with which to see the ground, but these were not adequate to allow an acceptable level of safety for flight. Though Ornge complied with the regulations issued by Transport Canada, the Court held that “[i]there is an undefined area or space between the regulatory scheme and the [centralised load control] where the general obligation to conduct a safe operation may apply and impose additional obligations”. This view was reflected in some of the comments earlier in discussions in this PPrune thread.

However, the Court considered that it is impossible to eliminate all risk in the helicopter medical transport industry, rather the goal is to reduce and maintain risk at an acceptable level. As it was not industry practice in Canada to equip all medical helicopters with night vision goggles, Ornge was not negligent in failing to provide night vision capability.

[[email protected]]

So the court have passed up the chance to make anything safer and just accepted the present operations as maintaining risk at an acceptable level.

Risk is always much more 'acceptable' to those who aren't actually exposed to it.

[JimL]

Crab,

The Courts are not responsible for ensuring, or improving, safety in Commercial Air Transport - that is why scope was limited to assessing compliance with the 'Labour Code'. Quite frankly, from the report by 'John R81', the Court appeared to have strayed beyond its area of competence. Once the Courts become involved in assigning blame in aircraft accidents, all legitimate moves towards the establishment of a 'just culture' will go out of the window and the management of safety will based only on compliance with regulations.

Responsibility for establishing the 'cause' of accidents rests with the AIB; the responsibility for the 'process' of safety management and continuous improvement rests with the CAA (Transport Canada); the responsibility for 'managing' safety and establishing a safe culture rests with the operator.

The process of assigning blame merely serves to make the lawyers richer.

Perhaps a legitimate point from your post is that, by making this ruling, the Courts have undermined an attempt by Transport Canada to improve operations with methods other than regulations (e.g. influencing culture).

Jim

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Labour Canada, is another crown jewel of Canada that is an utter failure.
Its like throwing darts with a blindfold.

As far as a company who's goal is to only meet the minimum acceptable level, thats a company I would not work for.
Every company should strive to exceed the minimums.

[[email protected]]

Jim, I take your points but any attempt to improve safety seems destined to be mired in administrative process or pushed from pillar to post as no-one has the power to demand change.

If Transport Canada doesn't see the need to acknowledge the weaknesses of their regulations ie no requirement for NVG for this sort of operation, and there is no pressure on the operators to provide because it isn't 'industry standard' - unless litigation identifies blame, how will anything ever change?

Cultural change sounds pink and fluffy but is easily paid lipservice to and ignored by those with their fingers on the pursestrings - people dying in HEMS crashes on a regular basis in the US hasn't fostered a new culture - only regulation will do that.

Hoping everyone will play nice and improve safety for their own sakes is naive and not representative of the 'race to the bottom' that is often complained about on these pages about the helicopter industry.

I'm afraid that the concept of 'just culture' is flawed and only serves to give paper safety not real safety.

[Arcal76]

Yes, we will always have risk in aviation...if you fly an helicopter, there is tons of things who could happen.
The question is how you manage the risk in your specific operation?
Transport Canada like the FAA is an organisation who refuse to go against the operator because nobody has the guts to put his name against a valid problem, a known problem who could result in an accident. When the accident happen, now they come back with big ideas and non compliance in specific operations. It is simple, operators are more powerful than TC. We had a good example recently with the H1 helipad story in BC and Nova Scotia.

We talk about having NVG's a lot in the past, but the answer was always the same: "To expensive....will never happen....forget it...."
After having 4 guys dead, the company had to do something to prove their will to improve the safety of this operation, but hey, we just finished the NVG qualification for all our base, we are in May 2018....