Mystery Aircraft

[sillohed]

This is both a challenge as well as an education for me. Can you identify the aircraft in the photograph. I am not sure where it was taken or the country of registry.

I have numerous photographs that were given to me by a friend upon his death and I am unable to identify many of them so your help is appreciated.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Aero%20Service%20Corporation/NorthrupYC-125ARaidercirca1960Suriname_zps4510b3da.jpg

[albatross]

Image does not seem to be there.

[sillohed]

photo should be there now. I had a little trouble.

[Bushfiva]

PZ-TAD Northrop YC-125B Raider
Leased by Suriname Government/SLM from Ambrose Aviation for equipment transport for landing-strip construction.

[abra]

It's a Northrop YC-125B Raider. PZ was the prefix for Surinam in S America. The 'B' in it's description meant it was built for the USAF for rescue work in the Arctic in the early 50s. It was under powered and not used for long by the military. The aircraft in the photo was used in the construction of new airfields and was taken about 1959 or 60.The YC-125 was a STOL aircraft, but this one kept on having landing accidents!

[DaveReidUK]

Photo here of the same aircraft ("Grasshopper") at Paramaribo: v57n1 - (http://www.aahs-online.org/journals/jrnl_image.php?jrnl=v57n1&image=6)

The YC-125 was a STOL aircraftThough sometimes it needed a bit of help. :O

http://www.aerofiles.com/north-c125jato.jpg

[sisemen]

"The Captain asks if you wouldn't mind putting your cigar out, sir"

[Spooky 2]

A good portion of these aircraft wound up in a USAF Maintenance training school at Sheppard AFB in Texas. They were all over in a bone yard next to the main terminal when I last saw them in 1964. Don't know if they had an after life or not, but I think at least one or more wound up in Mexico and Alaska.

[Rosevidney1]

An ex-Mexican example is in the Pima museum outside Tucson.

[sillohed]

You guys are really great. Thanks for all your wisdom! This photo was in our office in Philadelphia for years but no one seemed to know why since it didn't seem to be one of ours. Perhaps we leased it or moved supplies with it or something. In any case you are just great. Sooooo......what about this one?
http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/www1plane11_zps39774016.jpg

[sillohed]

siseman, that is too funny! I love your humor!

[MReyn24050]

sillohed
I believe that may well be an Airco DH9A "Ninak". However, instead of starting another aircraft recognition thread why not use the ones in existence already such as the "challenge" thread or "Heikkis' Silhouette Challenge".

[sillohed]

I checked out both threads prior to starting a new one. I notice that you are very active on the challenge site so you can probably answer my question. It appears that "challenge" is rather structured and not a line where you can just "jump in" with a new line of inquiry. The appearance is that you have to wait until one subject is exhausted before starting a new one. I have a few private photographs that I was looking for information on rather than simply "challenging" someones knowledge. Perhaps the name of my thread is mis-leading. I would be pleased to have a larger "audience" in helping me identify these pictures but I didn't want to monopolize the challenge site either. What do you think?

[sillohed]

Here is another photo of the same plane as above. I should probably state more clearly that my thread is not simply a challenge to test one's knowledge of the subject. As I stated earlier, these photos are all personal ones that I acquired through a couple different sources and what I am looking for is any information regarding what kind of aircraft, registration numbers, history, ownership, etc. The response to the initial posting was exactly what I hoped for and which I can use to share with others interested in the subject aircraft. Thank you so much for participating, I know there are other threads that might be suitable but this is a very narrowly focused thread.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/ww1plane10_zps32fae8fd.jpg

[sillohed]

Different view of same airplane.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/scan0003_zpsc471acc4.jpg

[MReyn24050]

sillohed.
Please accept my apologises I misunderstood the reason for posting the images. I do however believe the aircraft is an Airco DH9A Ninak that has possibly been modified for civilian use. Have you any details where this accident occurred?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/AircoDH9ANinak_zpseed31918.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/AircoDH9ANinak2_zpsa9f53fcf.jpg

The "Ninak" is also two bay biplane and the cut-out in the trailing edge of the upper wing matches the crashed aircraft. Also the upper ailerons have two similar control brackets per aileron as the crashed aircraft. The engine would appear to be a Rolls Royce eagle VIII.

[sillohed]

MReyn 24050,
Thank you so much for the photos and information. I presumed that the crash of this airplane was during WW I but I am not sure. Is this the same plane do you siuppose?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/ww1plane9_zps2cf3334c.jpg

[sillohed]

Same Airplane????

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/WW1Plane3_zpscfc6e2d8.jpg

[albatross]

WAG but I think that's a Sopwith Camel.

Great photos - please post more!

[India Four Two]

sillohed,

As albatross says, great photos.

Your closeup photo is of an Airco DH4, the forerunner of the DH9. The big difference is that the cockpit of the DH4 is under the wing, between the interplane struts. The DH9 fuselage was redesigned to move the cockpit aft, away from the engine and fuel and closer to the gunner. Judging by the campaign hat of the soldier in the rear cockpit and the M1911 he is holding, I think this must be a US Army DH4.

Concerning the crashed DH9, as Mel says, it looks like it was converted for civilian use. I think the engine is the Liberty L-12, which is consistent with a DH9A (or the American produced USD-9 and 9A). The name "Ninak" or "Nine-ack" was an unofficial phonetic nickname. The letter A was called "Ack" during WWI, rather than the "Able" and then "Alpha" of later years.

Your last photo certainly does look like Camel, but the wingtips seem a little odd.

[nacluv]

I think that last photo is an S.E.5/A. The mainplane and elevator planforms match.

Edit: On closer inspection, you can even make out the cowling on the upper fuselage just behind the cockpit opening.

[MReyn24050]

sillohed,
As Simon says the close up photograph is more likely to be a DH4. However, the guys in the cockpits look to me to be airmen from the USA. Therefore the crashed aircraft could possibly be an American built DH4-B a rebuilt version of Liberty powered DH-4 for U.S. Air Service. The Pilot's cockpit was relocated to behind fuel tank, adjacent to observer's cockpit. Similar to this photograph of the US marine version O2-B1.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/4561490265_1395537429_z_zpsb21bab34.jpg

An interesting feature of the crashed aircraft are the strengthening tie-bars going between the outboard wing struts. I cannot find any photographs of the DH.4 or DH.9 aircraft with these rather heavy tie-bars.

[LowNSlow]

I'd agree with nacluv, it's an SE5a. The wingtips are wrong for a Camel and the Camel nose was much shorter.

[albatross]

You guys are probably correct! That's why I love this site.
Ask a question - get an answer.
No "I am smarter than you are." or "Your grammar or spelling is incorrect." as sometimes seen on other threads.

[Arclite01]

Definitely not an SE5/SE5a

I am thinking Sopwith Snipe

Arc

[MReyn24050]

nacluv. I am not convinced this aircraft is an SE5.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Whatac_zpscd01cb0e.jpg

The roundels appear to be incorrect for an SE5{-
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/SE5_zps7692059d.jpg

Whereas they fit the Sopwith Camel;-
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/sopwith_camel-41700_zpsf61911e5.jpg

[nacluv]

I disagree!

Look at the planform of the wings, and in particular the elevators.

Then look at the length of the nose in the original photo. If that was a Sopwith, no nose would be visible forward of the leading edge of the upper wing from that angle.

Also as I posted earlier, you can make out the cowling behind the cockpit aperture - I maintain it is an S.E.5A. :)

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/SE5a/IMAGES/SE5a-Callout-Top.jpg

[MReyn24050]

naclav. OK I agree it matches the SE5 better than the Sopwith. The corner radius of the upper wing matches the SE5 and I will also the Engine projects forward more.

[sillohed]

So can I safely say that the crashed plane is an Airco DH9 and the cockpit closeup is a DH4 or DH4-B and the airplane in flight is an SE5? Now to show my ignorance further who are the manufacturers of these two planes. With this information I can give a proper title to each photograph. I can't thank you guys enough, I have been a pilot for 55 years and feel pretty stupid about these vintage planes. I have a few more that I will post but I am trying to keep them in some semblance of order so it makes sense. Regards,Ed

[sillohed]

I am guessing that this is the DH4-B since the cockpit is below (not behind the wing). The troops look U.S. Marines to me but the cockpit arrangement and the markings on the wing suggest U.S. Army and the plane doesn't match your photo of the 02-B1 posted by MReyn24050 .http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/TroopsWithHindenberg_zps0eddb5c6.jpg

[sillohed]

This is my all time favorite photo. These guys look so so casual. The markings appear to be US Army so I presume this is another DH4-B http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/WW1Plane2_zps570aa854.jpg

[sillohed]

This picture really has me perplexed. The engine cowls look odd and the rest doesn't seem to match anything else in the collection. There are a couple of seaplanes that I will post later but this looks like a two engine boat on wheels (lots of wheels). And is that two vertical fins and rudders? Any ideas?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/ww1plane7_zps0a65899c.jpg

[ICT_SLB]

I think you'll find it's a Martin MB-1 - the first bomber built for the US Army Air Service and powered by twin 400 hp Liberty engines and, like a lot of larger airplanes at the time, with twin rudders.

[Noyade]

G'day sillohed.

I'm thinking your two biplanes above are Jennies....

http://i42.tinypic.com/dzbyw.jpg

[India Four Two]

I have been a pilot for 55 years and feel pretty stupid about these vintage planes.

No need to feel stupid. Stick around here and you'll learn a lot. I certainly have! For example, I didn't know about the US-built DH-4B that Mel mentioned above.

I agree with Noyade. Your latest SE pictures are of Jennys. The kingposts above the outer wing panels are a very distinctive feature. Here's my favourite Jenny picture, showing the kingposts being used for a different purpose:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Jennytennis_zpsd1ef99cb.jpg

Concerning manufacturers, see:

Airco DH.4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airco_DH.4)

Sopwith Aviation Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_Aviation_Company)

Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Factory_S.E.5)

Martin MB-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_MB-1)

Curtiss JN-4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_JN-4)

[India Four Two]

Back to the original crash photos. There is a very nice picture here of a DH-4B at the USAF museum:

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/071105-F-1234S-001.jpg

The cockpits are similar to the crashed aircraft, but the windshields are definitely smaller and there are no tie-bars (well spotted Mel).

Coincidentally, there is a Martin MB-2 (a modified MB-1) in the background.

There are also some very nice cockpit pictures of a DH-4 Mailplane restoration here:

DH-4 (http://peckaeroplanerestoration.com/DH-4/dh4.htm)

The windshields on the crashed aircraft definitely have an "American look" to them and in the distance in the first photo are some buildings of military appearance.

Any thoughts on the location, anyone?

[MReyn24050]

sillohed you wrote:-
So can I safely say that the crashed plane is an Airco DH9 and the cockpit closeup is a DH-4 or DH4-B and the airplane in flight is an SE5?

Forgive me I may have confused you. In my initial assessment of the crashed aircraft at Post #10 I stated I believe that may well be an Airco DH9A "Ninak" . After further analysis of the photographs posted at Posts # 14,15 and 17 I would say my first assessment was incorrect.


From Wikipedia:-
The Airco DH-4 was a British two-seat biplane day-bomber of the First World War. It was designed by Geoffrey de Havilland (hence "DH") for Airco, and was the first British two seat light day-bomber to have an effective defensive armament. It first flew in August 1916 and entered service with the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) in March 1917. The majority of DH-4s were actually built as general purpose two-seaters in the USA, for service with the American forces in France.
The DH-9 was designed by de Havilland for the Aircraft Manufacturing Company in 1916 as a successor to the DH-4. It used the wings and tail unit of the DH-4 but had a new fuselage. This enabled the pilot to sit closer to the gunner/observer and away from the engine and fuel tank.The DH-9A - (also referred to as the Nine-Ack) was designed for Airco by Westland Aircraft to take advantage of the 400 hp (298 kW) American Liberty L-12 engine. Apart from the new engine and slightly larger wings it was identical to the DH-9. Initially it was hoped to quickly replace the DH-9 with the new version - however a shortage of Liberty engines available to the RAF curtailed the new type's service in the First World War – and it is best known as a standard type in the postwar RAF – serving as a general purpose aircraft for several years. 2,300 DH-9As were built by ten different British companies.

I agree with the comments made by Simon at Post #20 in that the aircraft in the photograph at Post # 17 is an US Army DH-4 but not a DH-4B.

On the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force website, in respect of the De Havilland DH-4, the following is stated:-
The DH-4 was an ever-present element of the U.S. Army Air Service both during and following World War I. When the United States entered WWI in April 1917, the Aviation Section of the Signal Corps only had 132 aircraft, all obsolete. Modeled from a combat tested British De Havilland design, the DH-4 was the only U.S. built aircraft to see combat during WWI. With inadequate funding to buy new aircraft, the newly created U.S. Army Air Service continued to use the DH-4 in a number of roles during the lean years following the war. By the time it was finally retired from service in 1932, the DH-4 had been developed into over 60 variants.

During WWI, the Air Service used the DH-4 primarily for day bombing, observation and artillery spotting. The first American-built DH-4 arrived in France in May 1918, and the 135th Aero Squadron flew the first DH-4 combat mission in early August. By war's end, 1,213 DH-4s had been delivered to France.

Unfortunately, the early DH-4s had drawbacks, including the fuel system. The pressurized gas tank had a tendency to explode and a rubber fuel line under the exhaust manifold caused some fires. This led to the title "The Flaming Coffin," even though only eight of the 33 DH-4s lost in combat by the United States burned as they fell. Furthermore, the location of the gas tank between the pilot and observer limited communication and could crush the pilot in an accident.

To overcome this problem 1,538 DH-4s were modified in 1919-1923 to DH-4Bs by moving the pilot's seat back to a similar position as the DH-9A and the now unpressurized gas tank forward, correcting the most serious problem in the DH-4 design.

I therefore believe the crashed aircraft is an American DH-4B

[nacluv]

In the photo of the Jennies and Marines, I think the aircraft obscured by the Marines might well be a DH, not a Jenny. No kingposts, and a different engine cowl.

What do you reckon?

[sillohed]

So what do you think.....DH4 on floats?http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/ww1plane8_zpsd76aaf21.jpg

[sillohed]

India Four Two and Noyade, thanks for straightening me out on the Jennys. I thought they were DH4's but I can see the subtle differences (or not so subtle to a trained eye) now that you mention them. ed:)

[Lordflasheart]

Is that the same chauffeur from post 17, who was being 'monitored' by the little spook with the big 'piece' ? LFH

[MReyn24050]

sillhoed:- So what do you think.....DH4 on floats?

Not a DH4 but a Curtiss R-6 I think.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Curtiss_R_6_zps52928e2d.jpg

[India Four Two]

ed,

It's not so much a "trained eye" as it is familiarity. I'm sure that you don't recognize another nearby aircraft by it's individual features. You automatically assess the overall picture and say that's a 737 or DC-9 or Cherokee or 172, etc.

Your Camel/SE5 photo was a difficult one, but if it was viewed on a video or in real life, the identification would be immediately obvious as the aircraft rolled upright.

Simon

[sillohed]

Thanks Mel, I think you are probably right. I did see a picture of a Curtiss that seemed to match but I couldn't put it together with the rest.

I am going to post two pictures of what I think is the same plane but I am not sure. http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/OldPlane12_zps2dda8455.jpg

[sillohed]

This is the second.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/scan0001_zpse1304334.jpg

[sillohed]

Ok, so now that I look at them, they don't look the same at all. Shows you how much I have learned. By the way, I only have a few more to go of this group of photos and it has certainly been an education. The mystery will still remain "where were they taken?" perhaps. The Jenny's appear to be a U.S. Army or Marine training unit since the planes just have numbers on the sides and no unit decal. The army did training in the U.S. as well as France so it still leaves it up in the air. The individual that gave me these pictures lived in Washington State and there is plenty of water and float planes there but none of the background looks much like Washington to me.

Again, many thanks. I plan to mark these photos properly and put them on photobucket or some other site. I will do my best to acknowledge you all for the help you have been.

Regards,
ed

[Noyade]

First photo looks like a Standard Caproni.
Second looks like a Gallaudet Pusher.

Amazing photos mate. :)

[MReyn24050]

As Graeme says amazing photos. The one you post at post# 45 I would agree that it is possibly an example of the Gallaudet D-1
Gallaudet D-series, produced by the Gallaudet Engineering Company, Norwich, Conn. This featured the power plant amidships driving a geared-down propeller mounted on a ring encircling the fuselage. The D-1 (A59) was powered with two 150 hp Dusenberg engines mounted side by side. Following delivery of the D-1 in January 1917, the firm reorganized as Gallaudet Aircraft Corporation, and moved to Greenwich, Rhode Island. Two D-4s, powered with single Liberty engines, were then produced for the Navy (A2653, A2654). D-1 specifications: span, 48 ft; length, 33 ft; gross weight, 4,604 lb; max speed, 90 mph.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/c86d4fe7-add8-4e74-be62-0539b1fd7948_zps7496a9b7.jpg



The original tri-motor twin-boom aircraft was the Caproni Ca-3 from which a number of aircraft were developed. One being the Caproni Ca-36:-

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/0d5d2327-78f7-4942-868e-dd953e9d5527_zps4057ff6a.jpg

Another development was the larger Ca-42 of which 3 examples were sent to the USA:-
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/fb6a9080-0b18-4eda-9a76-8c75d02d7643_zps10894ce8.jpg

The construction of the aircraft in Post #44 is very different. It is a very interesting series of photographs. Many thanks for posting them.

[MReyn24050]

One thing about Aviation History and Nostalgia one learns something everyday. Doing further digging on the mystery aircraft posted at Post #44 and Graeme's comment that it could be a Standard Caproni I found the following photograph:-

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/c6345913-dd7b-4791-9f7e-30be86dd832e_zpsfcacf309.jpg

This aircraft is reported to be a Caproni ca.5, or Caproni 600 hp, was designed in 1917 as a replacement for the old and effective Ca.3 bomber. I have also discovered that A large quantity of Caproni 600 were produced for the US Navy and in late 1918 they were ferried by American pilots from Milan to Northen France, suffering severe mishaps. Their use by the Northern Bombing Group was minimal.

The aircraft in ed's photograph may well be a Caproni Ca.5 if so I would say it is a very rare photograph.

[Noyade]

What made me think of the Caproni Mel, was this illustration. Not exactly the same as Ed's photo but the struts around the engine and on the fuselage under the wing looked remarkably similar...

http://i43.tinypic.com/efhz69.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Good find Graham. It looks a very interesting aircraft. I am not sure I would have liked to be the gunner standing in that "basket" affair right above the engine and propeller.

I believe this aircraft was also known as the Caproni Ca-44

Very interesting story included in this article regarding the delivery of the Caproni 600
World War I: American Caproni Pilots in Italy (http://www.historynet.com/world-war-i-american-caproni-pilots-in-italy.htm)

[sillohed]

Looking at this aircraft plus some of the descriptions of others it makes me wonder where they found people with the courage and skill to actually fly some of these airplanes. They all just look like little box kites compared to what even I flew which now look pretty primitive.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/TriPlane_zps653c1ce4.jpg

[sillohed]

This shows how diverse the field was at the time. What an exciting period.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW%201/Zepplin_zps3d3a7ffc.jpg

[sillohed]

I still have a couple of old photos that I am going to post here because I need a little help with them but this is the last of the WW1 series that were given to me by my friend. I have searched through everything I could find to identify the unit or location of the Jenny's but have so far come up empty handed.

Everyone who has helped me and contributed to this conversation are certainly welcome to use these pictures as you see fit with no credits to anyone. The photographer is in all likelihood deceased long ago and my friend would be proud to have them exposed to anyone interested.

Regards,
Ed

[Noyade]

Great photos Ed! :ok:

New one on me...the monster in your first photo....The 1920 Johns Multiplane?

15 Early Aeroplanes With More Wings Than A Bucket Of Fried Chicken | Gizmodo Australia (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/07/15-early-airplanes-with-more-wings-than-a-bucket-of-fried-chicken/)

Cheers
Graeme

[sillohed]

Very interesting story included in this article regarding the delivery of the
Caproni 600
World War I: American Caproni Pilots in Italy (http://www.historynet.com/world-war-i-american-caproni-pilots-in-italy.htm)

Very interesting story indeed, considering the type of aircraft and the objects in the way. Many thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[India Four Two]

The 1920 Johns Multiplane?


It certainly looks like it, Graeme.

I'm envisaging the following conversation:

"Chief, she's not flying straight. Could you check the rigging?"

"Yes, Sir. It might take a couple of weeks, though". ;)

[sillohed]

Here is the link to the pictures. It seems like such a small collection considering all of the work that I put you all through! I am sure that you will find some errors so don't hesitate to call me on them.

Regards,
Ed

Aircraft of WW1 by sillohed | Photobucket (http://s944.photobucket.com/user/sillohed/story/14329)

[nacluv]

I don't know if aircraft have published coefficients of drag, but I would love to see the figure quoted for that Johns Multiplane.

I42 - it appears that question was asked on several occasions already, the difference being that each previous answer was "Let's try adding another wing".

[Allan Lupton]

Quote:
I don't know if aircraft have published coefficients of drag, but I would love to see the figure quoted for that Johns Multiplane.

if you remember that calculating non-dimensional drag coefficients involves the wing area as a divisor, you'll easily understand that huge drag would, in this case, nevertheless give a very low Cd.;)

[toffeez]

Does that apply to the butterflies you caught?

In the 70's you had the explorer outfit.

Cardboard suitcase included ...

I remember those days.

[Allan Lupton]

I've no idea what that alludes to. Canst elucidate?

[sillohed]

Here is a photo of my old boss getting out of an airplane. Obviously a radial engine. Maybe American. Probably not long after WW2. Any ideas?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Aero%20Service%20Corporation/KauffmanCollectionAirplaneUnknown_zps1cc05c24.jpg

[Noyade]

I could well be wrong Ed, but maybe the Culver Dart GK....?

http://i40.tinypic.com/4r3zno.jpg

Cheers
Graeme.

[sillohed]

Graeme,
I think you are right on target. The rivet patterns, the fabric skin behind the cockpit, etc. all fit. My first thought was Culver but I couldn't locate one with a round engine. Now I can appropriately mark it in our company archives.

Many thanks,
Regards
Ed

[sillohed]

Here is a picture of the Culver dart. Graeme, do you know what engine that was? I noticed on the Air Britain site there are two other photos of this airplane N20995 with an opposed engine on it so I presume it was later modified since the pictures are the late 90's and early 00's

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Aero%20Service%20Corporation/DartGK_NC20995_01_large_zpsea472cbf.jpg

[Noyade]

G'day Ed! :)

I took a hunch on the Culver and had a look at Aerofiles...

You just landed at AeroFiles! (http://www.aerofiles.com/)

...and found that photo which mentions a "Ken-Royce" engine, which I'm unfamiliar with.

http://www.aerofiles.com/pix1.gif Culver Dart GK (http://www.aerofiles.com/dart-gk.jpg) [NC20995] (Dan Shumaker coll)
http://www.aerofiles.com/cleardot.gif
Dart GK 1938 (ATC 674) = 2pO/ClwM; 90hp Ken-Royce; load: 590# v: 130/114/56 range: 490. POP: 25 [NC20990, NC20995, NC20998/20910, NC20915, NC20920/20924, NC20930, NC20932/20936, NC20938/20939, NC20941/20945, NC20947/20948, NC20990, NC20995, NC20998/20999].

Cheers!

[sillohed]

Ken-Royce was one of those late 30's engine manufacturers that didn't survive the war or the competition with flat engines. The name actually comes from the owners two sons, Ken and Royce. My boss' friend owned the plane in the picture and was N20941 seen much later in this photo. They mostly went Moose hunting in Canada with it, I think.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Aero%20Service%20Corporation/DartN20941_zps16539d90.jpg

I suspect the engine isn't the same since the cowl is quite different but the airplane is still in service.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Aero%20Service%20Corporation/DartEngine_zps0f00909f.jpg

[sillohed]

Graeme,
You will probably recognize this old girl. It was one of our Australian survey planes along with a Mosquito, DC-3 and Aero Commander.

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Aero%20Service%20Corporation/TwinPioneerVH-AIS_zpsfb181235.jpg

[Noyade]

You will probably recognize this old girl

I think you know more about aviation and aircraft than you're letting on Ed. :)

Nice info on the Ken-Royce engine mate.

Cheers. Keep those photos coming! :ok:

[MReyn24050]

From Wikipedia:-
In the early 1930s Al Mooney was working for the Lambert Aircraft Corporation, builders of the Monocoupe series aircraft. He designed a small two-seat monoplane, the Monosport G. When the company ran into financial difficulties Mooney bought the rights to his design and with K.K. Culver formed the Dart Aircraft Company. The aircraft was renamed the Dart Dart or Dart Model G.
The aircraft was a low-wing monoplane designed to be light with clean lines to enable it to use low powered aero-engines. It had a fixed undercarriage and a tailwheel. The initial version was named the Dart G powered by a 90 hp (67 kW) Lambert R-266 radial engine. That engine was in short supply, so the aircraft was fitted with a Ken-Royce engine and designated the Dart GK. The final version was the Dart GW powered by a Warner Scarab Junior radial engine. Two special aircraft were built with larger engines. In 1939 the company was renamed the Culver Aircraft Company and the aircraft was renamed the Culver Dart.


From Airport-Data.com

Culver Dart Reg No N20941

Construction Number (C/N): GK45

Engine Manufacturer and Model: Warner SS40&50

Certification Class: Standard
Air Worthiness Test: 1955-09-16
Last Action Taken: 2011-05-26
Current Status: Sale Reported

As the aircraft was constructed as a GK it would originally presumably have had the Ken-Roger engine fitted which has subsequently been replaced by a Warner engine.

[l.garey]

It's a Twin Pioneer, but I'm not sure which one.

[sillohed]

I think you know more about aviation and aircraft than you're letting on Ed

Sorry Graeme....you know the old saying "too soon old, too late smart". That is my case. I worked for Aero Service Corporation for 12 years without any knowledge of the company history which was extensive. They were one of the first aerial photo/aerial survey companies in the world starting in 1919. There is a huge collection of their work at the Smithsonian and I have acquired many of their company news letters from 1938 to the early 60's. Aero had an office in Philadelphia and Sydney so there is a wonderful mix of old airplanes. I only flew the post WW2 era stuff. Most of the employees are deceased so I have to dig and dig to get historical information on the company, thus some of my postings since the WW1 stuff which was unrelated. Without the help of you gentlemen I would not have sufficient information to make enquiries about things like engines and registration numbers from the 3 or 4 remaining survivors of the company.

Engine Manufacturer and Model: Warner SS40&50

Mel, if you look at the picture from the 30's with my boss getting out of the plane and compare it to the one in Van Nuys from 2005 you can see that it still has a radial engine but the cowl looks like something from a Cessna 195. Would that suggest the Warner engine as a replacement for the original Ken-Royce?

[MReyn24050]

The following link shows a photograph of another Culver Dart Registration No NC20993 the information on Airport-Data.com states the engine is a Ken-Royce the engine fitted to NC20941 is as stated a Warner, hence the different cowlings.
http://www.airport-data.com/images/aircraft/small/000/775/775468.jpg a photograph of another Culver Dart NC20093

Here is a later photograph of NC20995 showing the aircraft has had a horizontally opposed engine fitted. Unfortunately the FAA details for the aircraft does not give the type other than "reciprocating"
FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=20995)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/c3f7db46-0dba-4f42-a683-98565b92d772_zpsd1ed36c0.jpg

[sillohed]

I know you Brits love your beer....no head, of course! But did this Spit actually carry beer kegs to the troops during the war?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW2/SpitfireBeer_zps1ccaa4ac.jpg

[ian16th]

Apparently true!

SPITFIRE BEER RUNS in WORLD WAR II as MORALE BUILDER | ArmyAirForces (http://forum.armyairforces.com/SPITFIRE-BEER-RUNS-in-WORLD-WAR-II-as-MORALE-BUILDER-m215375.aspx)

[sillohed]

Can anyone tell me if this is a Cessna 195 or C-34,C-38 or C-165 or something else?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Aero%20Service%20Corporation/C195N18496_zpsf91a919d.jpg

[albatross]

Not a C-195 for sure.
I think it may be a C-37.

Vintage and Historical Aircraft: Wings Over Kansas (http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/vintage/article.asp?id=175&s=b)

The window below the windscreen beside the fellow in the white shirt is not seen on photos I have found in a quick web search of the C35, C38 or C-165.
Looks like an engine change after a forced landing into some farmer's field.
Someone smarter will probably be along with more definitive knowledge.:ok:

[MReyn24050]

Is this the aircraft? Notice it has the same lower windows and the flash below the cockpit windows is very similar:-
History of N25485 (http://www.russellw.com/planes/airmaster/history_of_n25485.htm)

The owner states The original logbook #1 lists not only maintenance, but each flight location and duration. . It may be possible to contact the owner and discover if during the time it spent in Central America on survey work it had an engine change in the field.

[nacluv]

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/sillohed/Vintage%20WW2/SpitfireBeer_zps1ccaa4ac.jpg

It's either beer, or an early Upkeep test.

[sillohed]

Once again I come begging for help. I can't identify the plane or people although I think it was taken in Philadelphia ca 1922 or so. Any thoughts????:confused: