MERGED: Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program

[AviatoR21]

Wow what a disgrace from FlyBoat. You speak of all the negative aspects and none of the positive of GA. Cadets, yes they all aren't that bad but the few I've seen can't even interpret a TAF over a TTF and you call yourself professional. If you yourself are a cadet you don't deserve the salary or the honour of flying a jet with those comments. That attitude will not get you a command either! Your peers will shut you down. It's a very small industry.

[j3pipercub]

FFS guys, Flyboat is a troll. He is here to stir you up and waste your time. Don't reward him by biting. Nothing annoys a troll more than not taking the bait.

Anyone with more than five minutes experience in the industry can see he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

j3

[27/09]

j3pipercub: FFS guys, Flyboat is a troll. He is here to stir you up and waste your time. Don't reward him by biting. Nothing annoys a troll more than not taking the bait.

Anyone with more than five minutes experience in the industry can see he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

I think you're quite right about the troll thing.

The only reason I bother putting a counter view to FBN is that this is a thread that is likely to be read by those with less than 5 minutes in the industry and no reply to FBN's comments might be seen as agreement with them.

[Flyboat North]

Nice scare campaign with the Jetstar cadets getting moved on etc. The fact is that 95% of those who started the course have moved into full time employ with Jetstar. Just the same rate achieved in BA , Luftansa, the other large Asian cadet airlines such as SIA.

Nice story again about the Qantas cadet , all abandoned by the big bad company. Just no truth in it , all those on the QF cadetship moved into employment with Qlink , a number now captains there. Also many QF cadets moved into the Jetstar program, now flying A320s. So really they did quite well as compared to a GA guy who would have to spend five years getting competitive times for Qlink - then compete with several hundred for a start.

Why do you guys get so emotive, about the whole cadetships V GA conversation ?

My view is that someone would be foolish to without any backup qualifications/experience fund a CPL/IR , and that is my view supported by hard data.

The vast majority of GA experience is an underemployment , underpaid hand to mouth existence, where looking at it now you need to spend ten years before you had competitive times to join a major airline. About a five % chance of pulling it off I would suggest - why would anybody who knew the reality of the industry sign up for that kind of deal ?

A lot of people really just aren't all that interested in spending their prime years living in remote area Australia, getting paid peanuts. If the person is a high achiever they know they could of graduated from USyd or somewhere, earning good coin in the city, building a career - why would you swap that for remote area GA slave living ?

Cadetships you are sitting in an A320 18 months after completing year 12 earning $75K to $80K - really not much of a comparison is there ?

I think most of you guys in GA know now deep down that you are not going to ever be employed by a major airline, and you resent deeply those who are.

It is an understandable reaction to dreams that well , they just didn't turn out did they ?

[peterc005]

Cadetships are definitely the way to go for the lucky few chosen.

One thing I can't figure out is why Jetstar don't just hire Swinburne/OAA graduates, rather than bother with cadets.

Having Cadetships means estimated requirements two years in the future, but hiring graduates would probably just reduce the estimates to six months.

Jetstar don't seem to have a big influence on the Swinburne/OAA curriculum, so the training would be pretty much the same. They could just do the same testing on graduates as they do on potential cadets.

Maybe the cadetships were originally meant to be a MPL curriculum and Jetstar changed their mind halfway through?

Why bother with a cadetship when it's not MPL?

[mcgrath50]

Nice scare campaign with the Jetstar cadets

Nice story again about the Qantas cadet

These aren't stories or scare campaigns. They are facts told to me by my friends who are QF and JQ cadets. Incidentally I don't 'resent' them one bit.

to join a major airline. About a five % chance of pulling it off I would suggest

I would suggest that statistic is grossly inaccurate.

If the person is a high achiever they know they could of graduated from USyd or somewhere, earning good coin in the city, building a career - why would you swap that for remote area GA slave living ?

I couldn't agree more with you here, if you are sitting in year 12 tossing up between law, accountancy and aviation; don't pick aviation. It's a cruel mistress and one you really need a deep passion for particularly in GA. I personally couldn't imagine building a city career no matter how good the coin!

It is an understandable reaction to dreams that well , they just didn't turn out did they ?

Why are you so bitter mate? Myself and 27, the idiots bothering to engage with you, have not once been derogatory about your career path. It's fine, for some people it will be the best option but GA is an option too and a hell of an adventure.

Unlike you I won't tell anyone not to go down one route. For a newbie, I'd suggest gather the facts (and don't believe what any one person says, not even me!), look at your life situation and your desires and go from there.

:ok:

[mcgrath50]

One thing I can't figure out is why Jetstar don't just hire Swinburne/OAA graduates, rather than bother with cadets.

During the early days (JQ1/2) there was discussion of a pathway for Swinburne Bachelor graduates to join the advanced course. I don't believe it ever eventuated.

[Flyboat North]

Why do you equate someone having a different viewpoint to you as being bitter - it is just someone having a different viewpoint

They get higher Cal candidates applying for the cadetship higher ATARs more degrees from higher ranked Unis, who wouldn't consider the Swin Av degree because of the post grad GA career path.

Also get people with established professional careers doing cadetship in late 20s. They often have financial commits , and can't do more than 18 months without a normal income.

Swinny/OAA try to hawk the aviation degree to those who miss out on cadetship. Swin talk up the ATAR required , in reality it is quite low , interestingly they don't even ask applicants to sit the maths section of the Compass test. After all what would a pilot need maths for ? , just want to fill the quota.

Notice Griffith are still spruiking their partnership with Cathay Pacific, exclusive to Griffith students. The reality is that Cathay have closed the advanced program, and have no plans to reopen it in the short to medium term.

Both Unis say grads will also be qualified to be regional FOs - thought you needed 2000 hours myself :confused:

[27/09]

Flyboat: I think most of you guys in GA know now deep down that you are not going to ever be employed by a major airline, and you resent deeply those who are.

It is an understandable reaction to dreams that well , they just didn't turn out did they ?

You keep demonstrating a certain level of ignorance of the facts, or you wish to promote only one option, I'm not sure which.

Nearly everyone I know of in GA that wants an airline job has got one, so their dreams are "turning out".

[morno]

FlyBoat North, I'm not going to bother to read 3/4 of the shiiiite that you've dribbled from your mouth, however I'd just like to point out one thing.

I spent 10 years in "GA" (real GA, plus also several years flying small turbo-props), and I didn't have any problems getting into an airline when the time came that I decided it might be time. I enjoyed every year of those 10 years by the way.

I have many friends who have done similar, no problems getting into an airline as well.

Your Cadet scheme is merely for Gen Y who are too farrrking lazy to actually go and earn their career, OR, for older guys/girls who may not have the option to go out bush because of family (no problem with that, I completely understand).

morno

[FLGOFF]

Your Cadet scheme is merely for Gen Y who are too farrrking lazy to actually go and earn their career, OR, for older guys/girls who may not have the option to go out bush because of family (no problem with that, I completely understand).

If you think those who are selected for cadetships are "lazy" then you haven't got a clue. Anyone of the 12 or so people that are selected out of 200-500 applicants are selected due to the fact that they were seen to have the right skills and aptitude, and also done well in year 12, something that isn't an achievement of 'lazy' people.

I could just as equally say someone who didnt put in any effort, didn't make it into the cadetship and is now having to go down the GA path is lazy, but I won't. Everyone is different, and it's ignorant to make these types of sweeping statements.

[wishiwasupthere]

FLGOFF
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 17
Posts: 8]


Great, another person with extensive experience in the industry giving their opinion on the merits of cadetships.

[KRUSTY 34]

The highly selective, superior calibre, degree toting cadets certainly worked out for AF447!

[morno]

I could just as equally say someone who didnt put in any effort, didn't make it into the cadetship and is now having to go down the GA path is lazy, but I won't. Everyone is different, and it's ignorant to make these types of sweeping statements

Academic success is no measure of whether someone is lazy or not. Believe me, I didn't do very well in high school, yet I was more than willing to put in the hard yards to earn my career. Not just do a 12 month course and get straight into a jet that others have to work many years to even have a chance to try.

morno

[Flyboat North]

Uni's , the ADF see poor school grades as either a lack of ability or laziness make no mistake. Nobody wants lazy people who at times choose not to give their best on their books. The top Unis only want the top 10% of year 12 grads.

Sure the ADF will take on people who school didn't go well for as Pilots / Officers , but in a competitive sense you are going to be behind the eight ball and it is going to take some explaining. Same for QF when they hired , vast majority really quite strong year 12s.

Everyone knows the Pilot Academics aren't much, that is why people with a year 10 education can get through ATPLs in a few months - there just ain't a whole lot there. And if you think there is - well you just haven't been alive. So Morno I wouldn't be growing that having "go the ATPLs" equates to any earth shattering academic achievement.

I think you guys are referring to pre-GFC boom-times in terms of transitioning to an airline - you talk like you can just say "I shall have an airline job now thank you". No so simple over last two years , QF zip , Virgin zip, J* - maybe 50 a year at best - going mainly to cadets as we know , Tiger bit of a trickle.

Then have a look at the market in Aust , 85 dash 8s , 50 metros , 60 Saabs , 20 Braz's , 20 ATRs , 20 Fokker 50s , 130 King Airs , 50 Conquests etc etc etc. So likely 3000 regional/corporate pilots with significant turbo/ high perf piston time. That is a lot of applications.

Then there is the ADF , graduates about 120 per year into the squadrons, which in good times mean 100 plus per annum leaving. Not so now , all squadrons significantly overstocked , aside from FJ.

Then you will also be competing against those aussies wishing to return from OS.

Quite likely the Jetstar option will go, as it is the logical destination for QF to send surplus numbers to.

Almost all of the "first airline" jobs in Asia seem to have gone now as well.

So in the current context I would think that for the less than one hundred jet jobs in Australia the hard data says there are thousands of qualified applicants. At best an applicant might have say a one in twenty chance - 5%

[morno]

Couple of points.

1. I never said anything about academic success when I referred to 'doing the hard yards' in my career. There's a lot more to a successful aviation career than just reading some books and doing some exams. However, if you're a cadet, I can understand that you can't understand this.

2. The times of which I speak, are very recent.

I don't doubt that cadetships are a vital part of the industry for some people. However these so called 'cadetships' these days are money grabbing exploits that are just there to screw pilots over.

I won't waste my energy anymore, you just can't tell some people.

morno

[FLGOFF]

No matter how smart you are, you still have to put in effort to achieve high results. If anyone graduates high school within the top 1%, if they say they did no work, they're lying.

I don't think laziness has anything to do with it. Whichever path someone coming out of highschool was to take, they would still have to put in effort. The J* cadetship is very demanding because is it such a short course. Just because they start at an airline long before someone working in GA does, doesn't mean they're lazy. Whether working at an airline or in GA, you're still working..no room for laziness.

[AviatoR21]

FlyBoat judging the way you write, obviously English is not your mother tongue. Are you with Jetstar as a cadet? Did you pass Yr12 English or did your parents pay for your well paying career??

[josephfeatherweight]

because is it such a short course.

Bingo bongo. But plenty enough for me to be happy and confident to put my wife and kids down the back. Not...

[Mail-man]

Flyboat, by your own numbers you have demonstrated that there is a large pool of highly experienced and dedicated aviators who have done the hard yards to meet airline requirements. I'd suggest a vast majority of these men and women began their training when the QANTAS cadetship was the only "cadetship". Your argument for the excellence of cadetships may be valid in 5-10 years. In the meantime this group feel a little betrayed by their industry. I for one have had the finish line either placed far into the future some years, or placed far into the past only to be told i'm "too experienced and likely to resign too soon". Thankfully i've got an awesome setup now in GA, but still support my brothers and sisters who dream of a shiny jet future.

[iPahlot]

Flyboat, unless you are 18 or 19 then year 12 is really no measure of academic success.

Unless of course you're 38 and have achieved nothing in life other than have mummy and daddy pay to get you a job. That's begs the question, given that your parents paid for your J* job, did you get the hint or are you still living at home?

[Flyboat North]

You will find that these programs aren't a money making scheme or conspiracy at all, the Jetstar program charges exactly the same as the non-Jetstar Swinburne students.

1. Science, Engineering and Technology > Swinburne... (http://www.swinburne.edu.au/science-engineering-technology/schools/engineering/departments/aviation/flying/cadet.php)

2. Science, Engineering and Technology > Swinburne... (http://www.swinburne.edu.au/science-engineering-technology/schools/engineering/departments/aviation/flying/fees.php)

It is all the same , the Jetstar students do extra MCC stuff (about 40 hours) prior to doing the A320 rating.

The difference is that at the flying school it is no big secret that the "airline sponsored" cadets get the best flying and ground instructors
as well as preference for training aircraft.

Sure the CAE ratings are a tad inflated as compared to the US, but pretty much market price for Aust/Asia/Euro

So Morno - you were one of the lucky 5% who managed to get an airline job over past couple of years - how impressive you truly are , you beat all the RAAFIES with their instructor backgrounds , ADFA degrees etc etc. Sure you did :rolleyes:

When you take an objective look at the numbers - a % chance equal to the fingers on one hand after a decade of employment instability, $100K training debt, systematic underpayment, living in the outback, massive lost opportunity cost - I think you be a mug to sign up for that program.

I think most of you guys have a hatred of these programs because you are well aware that one cadet joining means one less place for a direct entry and you are starting to realize that your aspiration to fly a jet for a major airline will not be achieved.

[BlatantLiar]

Dont worry. When the 1500 hour FO rule kicks in our skies will be muppet free.

[mcgrath50]

The difference is that at the flying school it is no big secret that the "airline sponsored" cadets get the best flying and ground instructors
as well as preference for training aircraft.

Not necessarily true they got the best instructors but definitely got priority for bookings when Jetstar imposed deadlines come up, shafting Bachelor students.

So Morno - you were one of the lucky 5% who managed to get an airline job over past couple of years - how impressive you truly are , you beat all the RAAFIES with their instructor backgrounds , ADFA degrees etc etc. Sure you did

Come on mate, next time you are sitting around chatting to other FOs, ask them about their backgrounds. Plenty of GA guys there. The airlines aren't just for 'RAAFies' and cadets.

When you take an objective look at the numbers - a % chance equal to the fingers on one hand after a decade of employment instability, $100K training debt, systematic underpayment, living in the outback, massive lost opportunity cost - I think you be a mug to sign up for that program.

OK, point taken. You wouldn't be a pilot if you couldn't get a cadet scheme. I decided going through GA was worth it. It's a choice you have to make in life and just because you wouldn't doesn't mean others shouldn't.

I think most of you guys have a hatred of these programs because you are well aware that one cadet joining means one less place for a direct entry and you are starting to realize that your aspiration to fly a jet for a major airline will not be achieved.

How many times do we have to say it? We don't hate cadets. In fact I regularly grab a beer with a number of cadet pilots. Now I wouldn't grab a beer with you personally but that's not because of you being a cadet.

[KRUSTY 34]

It's not about whether a trained cadet or a former non airline experienced pilot is a better fit.

What the FAA did with the mandating of a Min ATPL for all RPT flight decks, was to put the "Value" back into the profession.

The proliferation of Cadet Schemes in the US was a direct response from the airlines in their constant war in lowering the wages and conditions of professional aircrew. To this end they needed a way to maintain the over supply of commercial pilots. And it worked! Pilots unable to live in their home base. Pilots having to commute vast distances. Pilots on less than minimum wage. Pilots on food stamps! And these clowns (operators) could see no problem with that!

The entire notion of competing for labour is so alien to airline management, so addicted to the ease of exploitation, that what we now see, is the wholesale grounding of much of the American Regional fleet. The penny will drop however, and the operators who accept the reality, placed upon them by a truly enlightened regulator, will be the ones who will ultimately survive.

As for the rest, trust me the travelling public will be much safer without them as a result.

As for Australia? We have the antithesis of an enlightened regulator, and a breathtaking ignorance of the situation, from both sides of politics.

God help us!

[FLGOFF]

I think most of you guys have a hatred of these programs because you are well aware that one cadet joining means one less place for a direct entry and you are starting to realize that your aspiration to fly a jet for a major airline will not be achieved.

I couldn't agree more. Notice how not once person complaing about the programs has actually gone through one.

[Lookleft]

Notice how not once person complaing about the programs has actually gone through one.

You must have missed the first batch of cadets at Jetstar bleating about how they were ripped off and went to the Unions to help them out.:D Not to mention their complaints that they have to divide all their hours by 2 so it will take them longer to get their ATPLs! Not something a direct entry F/O has a problem with.

The airlines aren't just for 'RAAFies' and cadets.

Can't remember the last time I flew with an ex RAAF in Jetstar. Don't know about Virgin but I don't think the RAAF is the happy hunting ground for recruitment staff that it used to be. In fact the last RAAF pilot I flew with went back into the RAAF because he got paid more!

[josephfeatherweight]

Notice how not once person complaing about the programs has actually gone through one.
Ha, great example and argument! :ugh:
FLGOFF, I assumed you were in the RAAF, no?

[FLGOFF]

You must have missed the first batch of cadets at Jetstar bleating about how they were ripped off and went to the Unions to help them out. Not to mention their complaints that they have to divide all their hours by 2 so it will take them longer to get their ATPLs! Not something a direct entry F/O has a problem with.

It appears I did. They were ab-initio cadets through Swinburne/OAA correct? As that was what I was referring to. Where can I read about this?

[Lookleft]

As that was what I was referring to. Where can I read about this?

Pretty sure Mr Google will have plenty of background info.;)

[FLGOFF]

Pretty sure Mr Google will have plenty of background info.

Ah but that's the problem, I can't find it. But you obviously have. So where can I find an example of Swinburne/OAA ab-initio cadets complaining about the course? Because I haven't seen or heard one.

[peterc005]

I've met and spoken with more than a dozen Jetstar cadets and former cadets now flying the A320.

They all say pretty much the same thing.

1) OAA/CAE is disorganised and you need to be on the ball to push thru
2) The Jetstar cadetship is pretty much what is advertised
3) Probably 90% of cadets who start the course end up flying for Jetstar
4) They are happy with the deal and the way things turned out for them

It's tough to get a spot. I heard something like 1% who apply get an offer. The psychometric testing and interviews must be effective at choosing the best candidates, judging by the high completion rate.

The Jetstar cadets I met were a little bit more mature, rather than being 18yo school-leavers, and came from a wide variety of backgrounds. One really switched on Jetstar cadet was formerly a builder in his late 20s.

[mcgrath50]

One really switched on Jetstar cadet was formerly a builder in his late 20s.

Wow! That's amazing.

[FLGOFF]

1) OAA/CAE is disorganised and you need to be on the ball to push thru
2) The Jetstar cadetship is pretty much what is advertised
3) Probably 90% of cadets who start the course end up flying for Jetstar
4) They are happy with the deal and the way things turned out for them

It's tough to get a spot. I heard something like 1% who apply get an offer. The psychometric testing and interviews must be effective at choosing the best candidates, judging by the high completion rate.

The Jetstar cadets I met were a little bit more mature, rather than being 18yo school-leavers, and came from a wide variety of backgrounds. One really switched on Jetstar cadet was formerly a builder in his late 20s.

That sounds about right. The acceptance rate is probably slightly higher than 1%, possibly more around 2-3%. Generally there is around 200-400 that apply, and out of that around 9-15 will be accepted. It does appear that the number of places offered in the recent courses has decreased since 2010.

[Mail-man]

FLGOFF, by your own numbers the minimum acceptance would be around 2.25%. How can you not fact check your own post? Worse than the ABC....

[mikewil]

Are we still expecting a 1500 hour rule to come in to practice?

My impression was that the senate inquiry led to a big lead of nothing in terms of increasing the number of hours required by airline cockpit crew...

[Flyboat North]

The standard cadet scare campaign runs like this;



There is no guarantee of employment - 90% plus are employed
You will not get an ATPL - no command hours - they are approved for all sorts of ICUS regimes , all the Qantas cadets from 70s now 380/747 captains
The big bad company is making money from you - not true just weren't happy with the calibre of Direct Entry Pilots - the program costs them money with increased training , approvals , supervision for a couple of years
The big bad flying school is making money from you- not true Oxford Melb not making much , compare the $84K for CPL/IR in Melb to the costs they charge the Brits - $89 K GBPounds.
There will be a 1500 hour limit bought in. USA only country in developed world to bring this in, already large exemptions given to certain groups, pretty much a "thought bubble" reaction to one accident. Cadet safety proven by likes of BA/Luftansa/KLM/SIA/Cathay over the last 50 years and of course our own world champions of Aviation Safety - qantas. How many aircraft "saves" have we had by our very own heroic Qantas Pilots who started as cadets. American 1500 hour rule Not even on the agenda

One more cadet is one less place for a direct entry, already 90 cadets checked flying A320 in Jetstar Oz , over 100 in training pipeline.



200 less places for the GA Astronauts , who did us so proud on the Flight Decks of Tiger, and perhaps "one or two" little incidents at Virgin.


So if catching grabs , and living in fly infested sh*tholes full of misfits and derros, in what is largely the wasteland of outback Australia, and being in poverty for ten years isn't what you had in mind for your future.


From leaving year 12 to flying an A320 full of paying passengers, you can be doing this 20 months from school.



Go direct to the Jet - Go Cadet


And please have some manners about , be humble , send your unemployed friends who went the GA path a food parcel every six months. And don't tell them about your six week holiday to Europe this year, where you will be flying business class, and visiting the October Fest.


Go direct to the Jet - Go Cadet

[BlatantLiar]

BA/Luftansa/KLM/SIA/Cathay/AirFrance

I fixed that one for you buddy. No need to acknowledge.

[morno]

So if catching grabs , and living in fly infested sh*tholes full of misfits and derros, in what is largely the wasteland of outback Australia, and being in poverty for ten years isn't what you had in mind for your future.I must have had my eyes closed for the last 10 years.



I never caught crabs.
I never lived in fly infested sh*tholes - sure they weren't always the most attractive places going, but I had a damn good time enjoying different experiences
I probably see my fair share of misfits and derro's getting onto Jetstar aircraft as well, and I didn't need to go to the outback to see that
Wasteland of Outback Australia? That just proves your pure ignorance there. I'll be sure to tell my in-laws that next time they're mustering their cattle to send the meat to the supermarket for you
No six figure salaries in a lot of GA, but I think 'poverty' is a bit far. I guess if you wanted to live on caviar, you would be in poverty
Ohh and that holiday to Europe - I also earnt it, I didn't just rely on it being 'given' to me by way of staff travel

So there we go, your post just proves you're nothing more than an ignorant, stuck up, uneducated (more in life than anything) cadet.


morno

[*Lancer*]

There are ignorant, stuck-up, uneducated pilots from all employment backgrounds. Likewise (not directed at anyone in particular) there are arrogant, opinionated, and self-entitled pilots also.

Like everything, it's what you make of it. Have the right attitude, and you can go far - regardless of which particular career direction you choose to take!

Have the wrong one and, well, there are enough examples here :rolleyes:

[Flyboat North]

"In the homeland of Aviation the USA, pilots for the Major Airlines in majority come from the Regional/GA sector and have an average of 4000 hours flight time when they join a major airline. Unlike Europe & Asia the American airlines have never had airline pilot cadetships , like BA/Luftansa etc. There have been 17 airline jet accidents in the USA which have had over 100 fatalities. This demonstrates the inherent dangers of Airline Pilot Cadetships, and how the should be regarded with caution, and a high degree of suspicion"

Discuss , 500 words - 40 Minutes (OK Morno I know you didn't get a fair shake with your "edutation" you can have until Friday lunchtime, it's Ok my friend we all know you didn't trouble the selection panel at Med school)

[wishiwasupthere]

Ban me but Jesus, what a ********. Flyboat North, if you're representative of the attitudes of cadets in J* (which surely the majority don't have their heads stuck up as far up their arses as you) I'll quite happily stay in my GA job.

[Tidbinbilla]

So yet another thread deteriorates into a cadet bashing exercise. Generally by people with little or no experience in the matter.

Let's get back on topic. If you are unable or incapable of offering information regarding the subject - please refrain from posting.

Further posts along the bashing front will be deleted.

[Flying Bear]

Wow, flyboat north reminds me of why I'm ashamed to be a pilot...

GA, military, regionals and now GA again living in one of the supposed S***holes, but have a good lifestyle and a six figure salary...

Happy with my experiences and adventures and would guarantee more capable than Mr Go jet - be a cadet...

Mods - why do you defend twits like this, obviously trolling??

[Dawn Patrol]

Well, if the program goes ahead in August, I was wondering if anyone has any idea on the time frame related to the selection process?

Such as application closing date, interviews/aptitude test schedules etc.

There is little/no information available but if anyone has any ideas from past experience that'd be appreciated.

Cheers.

[27/09]

I hear the recently graduated Jetstar cadets from CTC have been told there's no job at Jetstar anymore. OUCH spending all that money and no job.

Due to Qantas's present woes apparently. I'd say it doesn't bode well for any other Jetstar cadets.

[Bones13]

Eagerly awaiting Flyboat's response....

[Flyboat North]

The only people they have said "no" to are direct entry's from GA/Regional, sorry boys it's all over.

Just another variation of the scare campaign -- "no guaranteed job"

QF group have a very long history of looking after their cadet groups whether they be from mainline, jetstar, qlink. As long as they have the work ethic and good attitude , they get plenty of chances. A lot of QF cadets were offered and subsequently accepted places in Jetstar cadetship, QF mainline cadets upgraded at Qlink etc.

Nearly 100 cadets on the propery, and same number in the the pipeline. All intakes at Jetstar now will be from two sources only firstly Qantas transfers/redundant/lwop, and then cadets.

Lets have a look at the number of GA/Regional that got RPT jet jobs over past two years.



QF - zero
Virgin - zero
Jetstar - less than 50

Oh but wait there is Tiger - whoo hoo !! whoo hoo !!

The future is so bright you have to wear shades !

Enjoy the Desert boys looks like you will out there for just a little bitsy longer - what wise investment twas to self sponsor and pay
that $100K for training, when you knew you had slim employment prospects at the end, and no company had indicated to you pre-training
that they might have an interest in employing you.

Clearly Regional/GA pilots in Australia know they have realistically zero chance of an RPT Jet Job , for at least a couple of years. So you try to drag
the cadet programs down because you are jealous of where they are going, but the they got the airline job sorted prior to commencing training. You guys didn't and have been caught out - hence the tall poppy syndrome.

Go Straight to the Jet - Go Cadet

[Jetdream]

Pretty sure Cobham have been recruiting over the last couple of years for the 717, and wait for it, all from the regionals and GA.

[Captain Nomad]

Mate, you are so focussed on the 'majors' you forget there is another world out there operating RPT jets. Just off the top of my head: Alliance, Network, Air North, Cobham, QLink, JetGo, not to mention the corporate bizjets, overseas job prospects (some, like Air Niugini even offer Aus base), top tier GA positions etc that are all open to the person who has had a well-rounded career.

This industry has ups and downs, and when it is down, the GA guy will have more freedom to move and options every time - hands down.

Maybe you're the one with the tall poppy syndrome feeling insecure about your prospects?!

I'll shut up now as it's not really my barrow to push anyway as I actually never wanted a major airline job. I'm not bitter and twisted. It was never on the career goal radar in the first place. You wouldn't understand I guess...

[27/09]

Flyboat North: The only people they have said "no" to are direct entry's from GA/Regional, sorry boys it's all over.

Didn't you read what I wrote and what Pilot Breezy wrote as well.

It's cadets that have graduated from the CTC Jetstar cadet programme that have been told, NO WORK FOR YOU AT JETSTAR!!!!!!!!!!

It's not GA/Regional guys that have been told NO.

It might pay to check your facts before you make yourself look stupid, or is that look even more stupid?

[Flyboat North]

The big bad company betraying people, oh aren't they so horrible , the big bad Qantas company.

No basis in reality my friend , they have not been told that.

All who complete get a job , sometimes with a wait as Jetstar want them to do the 320 endorsement just before line training.

Remember the QF cadets of the 90s , no jobs available as recession commenced , all who graduated were first in when SO hiring did commence. If times turn bad , same will occur.

They are expanding not contracting , 24 commenced this month.

No GA for Jetstar

Go Direct to the Jet - Go Cadet

[27/09]

So why is the mother of a cadet contacting anyone she can think of that might be able help, saying no job for her Jetstar cadet son and asking help get No. 1 son a job

[Blueskymine]

Bit of misinformation here.

Latest batch told June start date.

Things have slowed, no direct entry for the year. That could change if they have to match capacity to maintain the cherished 65% line in the sand.

Nothing stopping the cadets getting a charter job while they wait it out.

[wishiwasupthere]

Nothing stopping the cadets getting a charter job while they wait it out.

If they're anything like Flyboat North, except their ego and giant chip on their shoulder.

[mikewil]

Nothing stopping the cadets getting a charter job while they wait it out. Wash your mouth out with soap! You expect a shiny jet cadet to get his hands dirty and fly a grubby old chieftain in the real world...how could you suggest such a horrible undertaking!

This would require using some initiative, washing the plane as well as flying it and making command decisions without a captain babysitting you in the right hand seat. Good one!

[Flying Bear]

A Jetstar cadet? Getting a job in a company requiring command decisions in aircraft when they've only been prepared to be a Captain's sexual advisor?? Just to fill in time???

Not in my company, not while ever my bum points to the ground!

Been bitten before with cadets, won't go there again!

Go straight to the jet - and read someone else's checklist for at least a decade, and that's the safest place for you...

(Caveat - there may be good cadets out there, but I couldn't be bothered looking!)

[peterc005]

Getting into one of the airline cadetships is tough, and anyone offered a spot is lucky and would be crazy not to grab the opportunity with both hands.

[Blueskymine]

FBN, you're a little misinformed.

The cadets start out pretty cocky, but they find their place within a couple of years. There is a HUGE difference flying with a cadet vs flying with a pilot that has some sort of flying background. It's generally the big picture stuff, situational awareness etc.

There is a place for cadets. I just don't think it's in the right seat of a jet. They should be cruise FOs for a couple of years, or at least do a regional placement like the QF ones used to. Plenty of regionals would love to have them. Particularly the one that don't pay very well.....

[Flyboat North]

Well everybody is entitle to their opinion.

But whether you think cadets do or don't belong as Jet FOs is not relevant. Jetstar think they do, and have acted on that to have cadets as FOs , and it is a long term program.

Wouldn't have thought Cobhams would have taken large numbers of "first jet" people over last couple of years, FIFO quite static. GA regional also competing against ADF , as well as expats returning from OS with significant jet time.

Cathay also gone 100% cadet

Grim few years ahead for GA/Regional looking to move on. Qlink stopped processing - nobody is leaving. EU a basket case so no chance for the EU passport holders to move there - easy/ryan - cadet intakes only. The way Jetstar is moving towards here.

[peterc005]

The world and the economics of the RPT industry have changed. The Low Cost Carrier model is here to stay and the new norm. People in the aviation industry who don't recognise this are dinosaurs.

You may not like it, but the LCC economic tide is unstoppable. You are deluded to not recognise this.

[BlatantLiar]

What does the LCC model have to do with whether the pilots are cadet or direct entry?

[Dawn Patrol]

Just got email then, course isn't running for August 2014 intake.

[tomdavidmax]

^^ Same deal with Virgin. Just got an email that they "Don't anticipate the program to run in 2014/2015. Please visit our website to keep up to date with job openings..."

[ozziejim]

hearing that all Feb 2013,Aug 2013 and Feb 2014 cadets will NOT get jobs, Aug 2012 will be the last group to go through with the A320 endo and get jobs . Wonder how Oxford will handle this

[transition_alt]

Can confirm ozziejim's comment above.

Even August 2012's are having a hard time, waiting 6-12 months before they're allowed to do their endorsement

[27/09]

ozziejim: hearing that all Feb 2013,Aug 2013 and Feb 2014 cadets will NOT get jobs, Aug 2012 will be the last group to go through with the A320 endo and get jobs . Wonder how Oxford will handle this

transition_alt: Can confirm ozziejim's comment above.

I'm waiting for someone to jump in and tell us you guys have heard it all wrong. Just like this person said a few posts ago to similar posts.

[Flying Bear]

I also imagine that a lot of these cadets will look for other avenues to get a start. Problem is, they haven't likely been trained in relevant aspects of aircraft command and I daresay FBN's attitude is the norm amongst them. Any CP seeing this thread would be concerned about bringing their poison into their company.

Since they have possibly been fed a false dream, won't they have some recourse to get their parent's money back?

Regardless, tomorrow when the out of luck cadets are dreaming of their jet, us in GA will get to go flying, take a look out the window at the spectacular countryside that is Australia, and hopefully reflect positively on why we started flying in the first place!

[Flyboat North]

So you are saying that Jetstar have defined what their employment numbers for September 2015 , sure they have.

I doubt this is true.

But if it is the bad news is for GA/Regional people as the priorities for employment at Jetstar are firstly other Qantas group pilots , then cadets then others.

Likely they will place them in Qlink for a period.

If the cadets have to wait a bit longer post grad , then it ain't looking good for turbo-prop dreaming is it ?

Go Direct to the Jet - Go Cadet

[27/09]

Flyboat North: Likely they will place them in Qlink for a period.

Really???????????

Why would they do that now?

Aren't they Jeststar cadets, not Qantas or QLink cadets?

I must admit I don't know the exact set over there but I'd imagine the QLink companies recruit their own pilots to suit their own operations and wouldn't be taking Jetstar cadets just because they are surplus at Jetstar.

[transition_alt]

I'm waiting for someone to jump in and tell us you guys have heard it all wrong. Just like this person said a few posts ago to similar posts.

Talking to cadets on an almost daily basis it's true. Their whinging is getting outrageous.
The newbies don't even have PPLs yet and they are complaining.

They think everything will be given to them. I'm sure worse things will happen to them in their career than not getting their "paid for job" at Jetstar.

[pull-up-terrain]

Flyboat North, you realise that when Qantas start retiring there 767 fleet this year, there are going to be a ****load of surplus Qantas pilots who probably will end up at jetstar on LWOP or be forced to take jobs at jetstar which is going to displace a lot of opportunities for these cadets. Keep in mind too, Qantas are going to be taking back some of the domestic routes that had been given to jetstar. Supposedly this new Qantaslink 717 operations is going to be replacing some jetstar flights too.

[Humbly Reserved]

What ABSOLUTE bull****!

QLINK is not only completely separate from JQ but recruitment and retainment is also completely separate from QF mainline (its why some of the QF cadets from post 2010 were upset as they were being placed INTO Qlink) with no prospect of transferring to mainline.

QLINK of late is also moving away from cadets in favor of direct entry. they have shutdown the foundation course because of the "exemplary skill and attitude" demonstrated by its candidates. the traineeship course is also on hold but will be brought back when a suitable training provider is found!

HR

[Going Nowhere]

QLink doesn't need any more newbies who think they belong in a jet...

:suspect::ugh:

[waren9]

for any new hire, if joining the qf group jet fleet is in your sights you need your fukcin head read. esp if doing it on borrowed coin

jq mgmt dont know whats happening next week let alone in sept '15

[AviatoR21]

And so the downfall of this industry begins.

[BreakNeckSpeed]

Going Nowhere -
QLink doesn't need any more newbies who think they belong in a jet...

:suspect::ugh:


Better they linger around QLink than GA!! If recent candidates are anything to go by, keep them the hell away from (me, and) single pilot ops! :eek:

Besides, surely wearing one of those QLink hats would suit the cadet ego more...

[KRUSTY 34]

Look FBN, I have labeled you a troll, but against my better judgement I'm at least going to try to enlighten you.

I did the hard yards in G/A, and I'm a Captain on one of those turboprops you so fervently despise. We have Cadets, and almost without exception they have proven themselves up to the task. What they lack in experience is usually compensated for by good training, intelligence and enthusiasm. Putting some aspects of their low experience aside, on a day to day basis, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two intake streams.

Make no mistake however, cadetships in Australia and for that matter overseas, have evolved for one reason and one reason only: To keep the supply and demand for pilots firmly in the favour of employers. If you believe otherwise, especially considering your profile as a 38 year old non airline pilot, then it just goes to shows how little you know about the true nature of airline recruitment here or anywhere else.

As a regional airline pilot, I am exactly were I choose to be today. Many other regional and G/A drivers aspire to bigger things, and the very best of luck to them. The reality for the foreseeable future will probably be that the real and employed pilots in this country may just have to sit tight for a while.

As for those currently undergoing cadet training, they may just find themselves without a job due to the pendulum swinging back to the employer. You do realise that until employed they have no rights under an industrial agreement? If you honestly believe that people who are essentially unemployed pilots with zero experience (cadets), will have a better chance of employment in the coming environment, then you are probably even more naive than your posts suggest.

[27/09]

Cadets served their purpose in driving down Terms, Conditions and Wages. That's all it was ever about.

Absolutely correct. There is no other reason in this part of the world.

[sillograph]

Cadet ships = wage control

Basically for the company it's like fixing the interest rate on your home loan for 5 years

LCC love this as it fits their model by knowing as many fixed costs going forward.

Which then reduces their risk.

And we all know the financial risk in aviation is huge.

[FLGOFF]

FLGOFF, by your own numbers the minimum acceptance would be around 2.25%. How can you not fact check your own post? Worse than the ABC....

What are you on about? 2.25% is between 2-3% is it not? Some people...

[Flyboat North]

Scare Factor : No guarantee of a job

The reality:


"Upon successful completion of the Jetstar Australia Pilot Cadet Program, you will be offered with a place in the conditional employee reserve with airline. There is the intention to employ successful cadet pilots however it is dependent on the position vacancy and industry performance at the time"

Yes you do actually have to pass the course, no real promises until then. It is just outrageous.

I think GA would be a much better bet , you can get your training for 20% less, then after ten years you will have at best a 20% chance of getting a jet job (more likely 5% right now), it is a much smarter way to go.

The big bad horrible company , imagine doing that to poor little student pilot, not guaranteeing them a job without insisting on performance standards being met.

The way they treat people is just atrociously, taking young naive year 12 leavers insisting on performance obligations being met before they even employ them, and then having the hide the then 19 year old only $80,000 whilst the goes through a mentored FO program for 18 months. Extra training , extra sims and only $80K - wouldn't get out of bed for it.

Then the poor cadet is only guaranteed at least $100k two years after being abused in such a heinous manner. It is sh*t money for a twenty year old - and it is all just a conspiracy by the evil corporation.

[tmpffisch]

Lets get a few facts of GA straight:

I spent 13 months to get my CPL from 0 hours. Spent $71,000.
I spent about 6 months in GA earning the award of $36k, after that haven't earnt less than $60k.
I spent less than 4 years in GA before an interview at Jetstar came along.

Considering you would spend $135,000 in a cadetship to get a CPL versus roughly $228,000 you could earn in GA over those 4 years before heading to an airline, it's arguably better to go via GA where training costs less and leaves you in a better financial position over the same time period it takes to get into an airline.

CADETSHIP
2 years flight training
3 years as an FO $70k for 2 years, $110 for 1 year
Total earnt $250,000 (2 years x $70k, 1 year $110k)
Total costs $135,000 plus endorsement
Outcome $115,000

GA
1 year flight training
4 years in GA
Total earnt $228,000 (3.5 years x $60k, 0.5 years x $36k)
Total costs $71,000 plus endorsement
Outcome $157,000

You earn more via GA....can spend that $42k on a jetski and strippers.

[morno]

FBN,
Weren't Jetstar in trouble with the ATO a few years back for trying to pay Australian Cadets in New Zealand dollar's or something along those lines?

Who would want to work for a company who's sole interest is to screw their pilots over as many ways as they can?

morno

[Mail-man]

FLGOFF, by your own numbers the minimum acceptance would be around 2.25%. How can you not fact check your own post? Worse than the ABC....

What are you on about? 2.25% is between 2-3% is it not? Some people...

Well if you reread your own post you said the MINIMUM was "probably" around one percent then stated numbers that would provide an absolute minimum of 2.25%. I'm not surprised those that support the cadetship stream have difficulty with numerical reasoning and reading comprehension.....

[Flyboat North]

$70K for ATPL/CPL/IR don't think so - would say at least $100K , maybe $85K if you really want to scrimp.

Training for Jetstar Cadetship 1.5 years , lucky to complete all of above in much less I would think

Wages first couple of years for Jetstar cadets , most are grossing $85K and over , just take the basic and add 25% pretty conservative really.

Yes some people reach an airline after 4 years GA, great for them , the figure would be less than 5% , probably more likely 2% of GA entrants to airlines.

Really just the tag line from a flying school when you ask about career prospects "Worst case mate , five years to a Jet Job" .

Most joining first airline Jet/FO , very few under late twenties, or early thirties really , typically 3000 plus hours to be competitive, normally will take ten years in GA/Regional.

Think of it this way , when you transition to your Turboprop command the Cadet will be transitioning to an Airbus command, he is five years in Jetstar, you are five in GA

You join the airline four five years later, the cadet is almost looking at Widebody command, and is likely at least 1 million ahead of you in career earnings , he has had six figure salary for ten years, you have averaged $60K at best , and likely spent three years either unemployed or under employed.

Yes be a Cadet & Go Direct to the Jet

[FLGOFF]

Well if you reread your own post you said the MINIMUM was "probably" around one percent then stated numbers that would provide an absolute minimum of 2.25%. I'm not surprised those that support the cadetship stream have difficulty with numerical reasoning and reading comprehension.....

Not once did I say "minimum" and not once did I ever say it was "one percent". Anyone with even the most basic level of reading comprehension skills would clearly understand that by me saying..acceptance rate is probably slightly higher than 1%..does not equate to me saying "acceptance is probably around one percent".

[morno]

FBN, I've never heard so much dribble come out of one persons mouth before.

Your opinions are quite far from the facts.

3,000hrs in 10 years in GA? You're kidding right? I had over 5,000hrs after 10 years in GA and I barely went near 500hrs a year for most of it, mainly because of the type of operation I was doing.

I hope to god I never have to share a cockpit with you.

morno

[27/09]

When I put Flyboat North into my spell checker it keeps coming back with Troll. :eek:

[Flyboat North]

The vast majority of GA careers have long periods in the "slave" system at flying schools , where you man the reception full time, only get paid for flying hours - how wonderful providing free labor to a business owner, or on the "casual list" at a charter company, or working for free tossing jumpers.

Long perods of unemployment , under employment , unpaid employment , seasonal employment, months wasted looking for jobs , traveling around Australia just for interviews.

Massive glut of people under 500 hours looking for work.

Leave school , get CPL/IR spend likely $90 K doing that , you are now at least 19, then go GA

70% of your cohort will have dropped out with two or three years, never got one flying job or not prepared to leave the city , don't fancy the reality of the work situation outlined above.

Those who in ten years have 4000 hours will have done exceptionally well, and you can now apply for an airline job. Sure there will be a rock star who has 7000 hours but they are maybe like one in 100.

But unlike others in their twenties you won't have bought a house , had decent holidays , or have many assets, lot's of missed relationship opportunities that will never come back (most partners won't move to the outback). Massive missed career opportunities in all sorts of other fields. You can never get those back , go back to uni at 28 to do a health/tech degree - it just won't happen. But hey that big break is "just around the corner"

GA wannabes need to think about the reality of how their life will be instead of swallowing the "jet in 5 five years" rubbish promulgated by the flying schools.

The speed of the responses here clearly indicates people who have plenty of time on their hands , unemployed likely

[27/09]

Flyboast North: The speed of the responses here clearly indicates people who have plenty of time on their hands , unemployed likely

If getting fairly well paid for doing 600 hours per year with reasonable time off is the new definition of unemployed - then I'm guilty as charged.

You seem to have plenty of time to post on here. Tell us Flyboat, how many hours a year are you being paid to fly?

[Bing Gordon]

Flyboat, I am certain that you're sitting at home having a good old laugh at idiots like me who keep responding to you as you continue to take the piss. With that in mind however, for the benefit of the newbies who may actually believe you, we must press on beating our heads against this wall for the benefit of mankind.

You obviously know a little bit about the cadetships, and good on you for knowing what you've signed up for. I must admit, at the age of 38, a cadetship is a pretty intelligent way to go to fly a jet if that's what, between big your undoubtedly big watch and shiny (mint condition for a 1995 model) mx5, gets you off.

The rest of what you're saying however is exactly what you've convinced yourself to believe in order to continue on, blinkers on, through your cadetship - and that's what we all have a problem with. How can you possibly comment on GA having never been there? How can you tell others that financial gain is more important than life skill building and job satisfaction? Most importantly, how can you tell others your chosen path is better than theirs?

GA isn't a means to end. Had you spent any time there, you'll see there are careers in every part of GA. Do they suit you? Probably not. Can you tell others they don't suit them? Absolutely not.

Airlines are simply another part of the aviation industry, as is GA, as is freight, as is corporate aviation and on and on. Airlines attract certain types (not all!) usually due to extrinsic factors such as status, image and wealth. GA attracts others for more intrinsic reasons - the love of the grass roots aviation, the desire to teach, the desire to help and the desire to come home every night - exponentially different from what you believe which is simply a place for people who aren't intelligent or good enough to get into the airlines.

At the age of 38 I'd hope you'd be a bit wiser than what your posts are leading us to believe, I think deep down we all hope you're a 17 year old kid who logs onto pprune between rubbing one out and sticking photos of A380s on your facebook page. In which case, very well played sir.

Please continue to comment with the facts of cadetships, however don't again comment on things you know absolutely nothing about. People actually come here for help, and you're not helping.

For the record, I spent 5 years in GA before joining the airlines. I now fly a 737 for a big Australian airline and have done so successfully for several years. I have two degrees, one is a Master's. I am soon going back to GA for lifestyle and job satisfaction. I am 5 years younger than you. Explain that!

[mcgrath50]

The vast majority of GA careers have long periods in the "slave" system at flying schools , where you man the reception full time, only get paid for flying hours - how wonderful providing free labor to a business owner, or on the "casual list" at a charter company, or working for free tossing jumpers.

Not true. I've never worked in a company that hasn't paid the office rat. Most skydiving places pay something these days, the ones that don't have bigger issues than that and when I worked casual charter they were very good at sharing the hours relatively evenly and understanding you were juggling 2 jobs.

FBN, we get it you are really happy with your decision to "go direct to the jet". Good for you. Please do share your experience so the next generation can understand it.

BUT PLEASE, you clearly have no experience of the GA path so let those of us who have that experience share it as well without it being rubbished by a bloke who hasn't been there and done it!

[Flyboat North]

Wow Bing you were one of the "special" people the single figure % who got to an jet job (FO) in five years from GA.

Sure you did , I believe you , we all believe you

And now you will leave a big 737 job , a big important job earning $150K to return to GA

Sure you would, that is so believable , people do that all the time because GA is so wonderful

Happy to be you $100 that you have never flown a Boeing 737 ,that you don't work for a "big major Australian airline", and that you do not hold two undergraduate degrees and a masters degrees.

[27/09]

Flyboast North, I hope you have an equally large chip on the other shoulder otherwise you would walk with a big limp.

Please appraise us poor plebs with your level of flying experience.

[Flyboat North]

Well Bing wanted to meet up, very quick to send a PM was Bing

I am happy to do that but I think Bing does good talk , quite a smart mouth really, but not so good on the delivery side of the equation

Just an all round mega success guy, such a mega success guy that he has to tell everyone about it on a BB, real secure there !

Wow seems everyone who posts here just had a dream success story in GA, full employment , full pay - long way from reality as we all know

[27/09]

Flyboast North: Wow seems everyone who posts here just had a dream success story in GA, full employment , full pay - long way from reality as we all know

No I don't know. Perhaps you could tell us your experience as you seem to know so much about the reality of GA. What have you done? What are you doing now?

[morno]

I'm surprised mods haven't deleted this guy.

Why guys?

[peterc005]

I don't seem to recall any former cadets here bagging cadetships. This is telling.

FlyboatNorth's comments seem well-informed to me.

[tmpffisch]

FlyboatNorth's comments seem well-informed to me.

He/She/It has THE MOST uninformed view of GA I've ever heard!!!

Probably don't get any former cadets here because after not making it; they've left the industry.

[mcgrath50]

Cadets in GA tend not to advertise their background for fear they will be tarred with the same brush as the likes of FBN! Rightly or wrongly its much easier to get a job in GA when you delete "cadet" off your resume. :ok:

[Humbly Reserved]

I'd be interested in FBN's past experience and current situation as it might add some weight to his otherwise slanted views...

HR

[waren9]

fbn

320 commands at 5 years is long gone.

10 years to a 330 command is self delusion.

when joyce and the money is gone and the qf boys come over for the mou spots it will be 15 years or more. just like its always ever been.

jq has stopped expanding. give it some thought

[peterc005]

I've met more than twenty Jetstar cadets who passed thru OAA/CAE. They all seemed to say pretty much the same thing, that OAA was a bit disorganised, but that it worked out for them and they are happy with the end result.

These twenty Jetstar cadets were over at least four intakes and it seems like the course has a completion rate of more than 90%, which is much higher than alternatives.

I've also known Sharp and Rex cadets and their experience and outlook seems similar.

The impression is that because the cadetships are selective entry, 2% to 3% of applicants for Jetstar, they get the cream of the crop.

A few times I've spoken with cadets whose attitude and dedication stands out. Things like massive amounts of pre-preparation, motivation and work ethic.

[Lindstrim]

The impression is that because the cadetships are selective entry, 2% to 3% of applicants for Jetstar, they get the cream of the crop.

A few times I've spoken with cadets whose attitude and dedication stands out. Things like massive amounts of pre-preparation, motivation and work ethic.

Some of the ones I've seen were like this others couldn't give a rats ass.

[mcgrath50]

A few times I've spoken with cadets whose attitude and dedication stands out. Things like massive amounts of pre-preparation, motivation and work ethic.

You've just described all professional pilots mate!

[Lookleft]

A few times I've spoken with cadets whose attitude and dedication stands out. Things like massive amounts of pre-preparation, motivation and work ethic.

Like the work ethic that has them calling in sick on early flights on a Sunday or the massive amounts of pre-preparation they do when going to Ballina:ugh:. Like Paul Kelly said "special people..... special people"

[morno]

Peterc is another one who I would place in the same category as FBN. Has about 463 posts, 463 of them are praising Jetstar cadets, that's it.

Where's the real opinion from those in Jetstar who have to work with these cadets?

morno

[FLGOFF]

News from CAE Oxford The August 2014 course intake will not be required to be delivered according to Jetstar Australia’s recruitment forecast; March 2015 is yet to be confirmed, but with the August 2014 applicants being transferred over to March 2015, if there is a March 15 course, competition will be far greater.

[Damien1989]

Peter,
can you tell me again how you've met several Jetstar cadets, they're all cream of the crop but complain about the training... Just in case I forget in three posts.

I've met more than twenty Jetstar cadets who passed thru OAA/CAE. They all seemed to say pretty much the same thing, that OAA was a bit disorganised, but that it worked out for them and they are happy with the end result.

I've met and spoken with more than a dozen Jetstar cadets and former cadets now flying the A320.

They all say pretty much the same thing.

1) OAA/CAE is disorganised and you need to be on the ball to push thru
2) The Jetstar cadetship is pretty much what is advertised
3) Probably 90% of cadets who start the course end up flying for Jetstar
4) They are happy with the deal and the way things turned out for them

I've met Jetstar cadets from four or five courses, and from what I can tell about 90% complete the training and I haven't heard of one to completed not getting a job.

The former cadets now flying for Jetstar regularly complain about OAA/Swinburne being a bit disorganised, but seem generally happy with the deal they got.

If you were a young guy keen on the airlines and got offered a similar cadetship you'd be mad not to jump at the opportunity.

I've known about a dozen people who've done the Jetstar Cadetship in the past few years.

They were all generally positive about it, although a couple said they thought the Virgin Cadetship was better.

Speaking to some of the Jetstar cadets it appears the biggest problem is that OAA has become too big and disorganised. I also guess all of the ownership changes going from GFS to OAA to CAE in a few years wouldn't help.

Over the past couple of years I've met about a dozen current or former Jetstar Cadets.

They all seems pretty enthusiastic and motivated.

The two complaints I heard were:

* OAA was a bit disorganised about the flying, and the cadets had to compensate for this by being a bit more motivated and pushing harder to get the training done.

* There was little or none contact between Jetstar and the cadets during the training.



I've met a dozen current and former Jetstar cadets.

None suggested that anything significant was misrepresented.

Any gripes they had are probably due to minor mismanagement, rather than misrepresentation.

I've known a few Jetstar cadets over the years, and recently met a small group who had just finished at OAA Moorabbin and were waiting to go to the UK for their A320 Type Ratings.

While they complained a bit about OAA being a bit disorganised, they seemed very positive about the outcome.

My understanding is that for the first year they go on some type of "flex-contract", where they are more casual than full-time permanent.

Regards :ok:

[peterc005]

@Damien1989 - I fly out of YMMB and in the past did some training with General Flying Services, which is now part of OAA/CAE.

Over the years I've met quite a few from this place, including a couple of ex-Swinburne OAA/CAE instructors I've flown with. Also meet and see people around at places like the AeroBar.

My older son runs an A320 Sim business. I have met a couple of groups of Jetstar cadets who have spent time in the sim prior to leaving for England for their A320 Type Ratings.

When the former cadets start at Jetstar they are on "flex contracts", which may mean fewer hours. Some buy time in the sim for extra A320 experience and to polish their skills and procedures.

One of the A320 Sim instructors is a recent Jetstar cadet who is now a First Officer on the A320. He is very happy with how things turned out. His level of professionalism, knowledge and attitude are very impressive.

Back to my earlier post, I don't recall hearing any former Jetstar cadet here on Pprune complaining?

[27/09]

Over a day and 19 posts later and still waiting to see what flying experience/job Flyboast North has. Perhaps he/she is out there busy doing some solo consolidation after his/her first solo?

[27/09]

peterc005: Back to my earlier post, I don't recall hearing any former Jetstar cadet here on PPRuNe complaining?

The other side of that coin is you don't see any cadets on here saying how good it is either.

[FLGOFF]

The other side of that coin is you don't see any cadets on here saying how good it is either.

If they're happy with the course is there really a reason to go on here and discuss it? People are far more likely to go online to complain than they are to praise. They're probably getting on with their careers at J*.

As a matter of fact I did come across someone on here about 2 years ago who was in the middle of completing the course and was answering questions. He hadn't experienced any significant problems with it at all.

[mcgrath50]

My older son runs an A320 Sim business. I have met a couple of groups of Jetstar cadets who have spent time in the sim prior to leaving for England for their A320 Type Ratings.

When the former cadets start at Jetstar they are on "flex contracts", which may mean fewer hours. Some buy time in the sim for extra A320 experience and to polish their skills and procedures.

Ah now I understand why you think the flex contracts at Jetstar are so well paid! The employment conditions at that sim make Jetstar look like the golden age of legacy conditions.

Back to my earlier post, I don't recall hearing any former Jetstar cadet here on PPRuNe complaining?

Because all cadets sign a social networking agreement when they join the course. It's a violation of contract. The Qantas Cadets were not even meant to post picture of themselves in uniform or aircraft pictures that identified the registration of their aircraft on social networks. Jetstars wasn't as strict but strict enough to discourage people from posting I'd say.

Also as I mentioned many people like their anonymity on here and there aren't that many cadets around. It doesn't take long to figure out who one might be if they did post. Again they may not want that to happen, particularly if they are bagging the course.

[ozziejim]

mcgrath50 im not sure where you're getting this social networking agreement thing from, unless it is new. From what I know, there was nothing like this for cadets from 2010-2012. May have changed in recent years though

[Ted Nugent]

Back to my earlier post, I don't recall hearing any former Jetstar cadet here on PPRuNe complaining?

Thats because they can't afford internet!

[Bing Gordon]

Hello Flyboat, it's your old friend here. Yeah that's right it's me, Bing.

Firstly, thanks very much for giving me the right of reply via PM before getting back on here in public and getting stuck in. Not particularly concerning given your questionable capacity, however I thought you'd be better than that. As you'll find out when you get your first flying job, you can't always sit here day-in day-out monitoring the forum. Some of us are at work flying aeroplanes, which means we can't utilise the PM system like an instant messenger. But you'll understand that in time, or perhaps you won't.

I did want to meet up - no aggression, no ill will, most certainly not to collect your $100. I'd just like to get your perspective on what makes you tick. You want to be a professional pilot yet you're here denigrating those who already are with a counterargument that's sounding more diva than voice of reason.

Between yourself and PeterC, you're the only two out of the lot spruiking the cadetship, yet neither of you are cadets! Peter clearly has a massive conflict of interest so everything he says can be discounted instantly. As for you, you have this uncanny ability to be able to respond within 30 seconds to a cheap argument, yet when someone genuinely wants you to have a grown up conversation or talk about your experience you go very quiet all of a sudden.

I sincerely hope that any aspiring cadet doesn't make it this far in the thread to find all of this drivel, but on the off chance they do, I recommend talking to a real life pilot directly rather than getting information from here. I know a few cadets, and they're all good blokes. Being a cadet doesn't make you a wanka, it's your attitude that does. Importantly too, if you get knocked back, life doesn't end. There are a hundred ways to skin a cat, and despite FBN's insider predictions, you can get into a jet within 5 years. I did it, as did most of my GA mates, it's all about timing, nothing else. Timing affects cadets too, just ask the QF guys who were sent to find their own job and will never go back to QF, or the current jetstar guys.

Flyboat, I hope you find what you're looking for but please don't influence the decisions of others with your illogical rubbish. I''ll respond to any reasonable questions and arguments from you but you won't hear from me if you post a prepubescent cheap shot again.

In the meantime, I suggest you go and book yourself a TIF and see if you even like what you so desperately want.

[Flyboat North]

Bing is back with his smarty pants mouth.

You claim to hold a bachelors and masters degrees, be 33 years old , and fly a 737 for either Virgin or Qantas, having progressed there after five years in "GA". A powerful CV to say the least. And you now state to you will resign your airline job and return to "GA".

You really are in Disneyland without a ticket.

In my view your CV is a complete fabrication, and that is why I made the $100 bet. But after initially accepting the bet you now hide, you do however continue with your smarty pants mouth via this anonymous BB.

The Qantas cadets were all employed by Qlink, many are now captains there. The Q cadets still in training were given the option to transfer over to the Jetstar upon course completion - many took that.

Sure come cadets fail , some elect to leave , some get thrown out but overall the conversion to airline employment is over 90% and in most courses over 95%. Pretty much as good as it gets really, demanding courses in short time periods , so they must be getting the selection right.

Contrast this with say other large groups of CPL grads say the graduating classes say the 2010 to 2012 classes from Swin , Griff , UNSW. OK the flying schools take one or two a year but typically they have 30 to 40 completing each year. What % from the 2010 classes are still actively pursuing a "piloting" career - I would suggest 30% would be an overly optimistic figure.

I have been told that the majority of graduates from these programs never obtain a pilot job , never actually do one paid hour as a commercial pilot. The training/education is quite good - the issue is the lack of opportunity at the lower end of GA.

These places typically tell prospective students they have all sorts of alliances with airlines, that their students get preference - just tall tales really. Or that doing their course will qualify them to be a "regional airlines first officer" and they put this in black and white - amazing.

What they don't tell them is that within 12 months of graduation at least half of CPL class has given up on a career of being a pilot. They have realized that even in an average market the bottom end of GA is pretty much a slave system, and they aren't prepared to join the fray.

[Bing Gordon]

Like I said Flyboat, no more reaction from me to the dribble, but I'd like you to address the points below.

The Qantas cadets were all employed by Qlink, many are now captains there. The Q cadets still in training were given the option to transfer over to the Jetstar upon course completion - many took that.False. Yes there were a few that went to link, the rest went elsewhere from Metros, King Airs and Brasilias to, god forbid, Islanders. I know some of these people personally. They're never going to Qantas. How many do you know? How many went to JQ? Do you have a figure? Post it here please.

the conversion to airline employment is over 90% and in most courses over 95%Again, just post up the source of the figures please.

OK the flying schools take one or two a year but typically they have 30 to 40 completing each year. What % from the 2010 classes are still actively pursuing a "piloting" career - I would suggest 30% would be an overly optimistic figure. How did you get to those figures? Just a brief summary will do.

I have been told that the majority of graduates from these programs never obtain a pilot job , never actually do one paid hour as a commercial pilotTold by whom? Figures please.

What they don't tell them is that within 12 months of graduation at least half of CPL class has given up on a career of being a pilot. They have realized that even in an average market the bottom end of GA is pretty much a slave system, and they aren't prepared to join the fray. So in summary from the above 3 quotes: 50% get a job, the majority never obtain a job, but 30% actively pursue a career? Show me how you got these numbers and what they mean.

If you think any of this is out of context, the full post is above.

If you can achieve any of the above, please go ahead.

[Advs]

100% of 2010 QF cadets are working in GA with no hope of QF or link got to wait about 5+years. 2009 QF has some in link and some in JQ(ACP), half of them worked in GA (FI) before 320 rating.
Most of 2008 QF worked as FI at OAA till 2012 and went to Link (Traineeship).
Jq1-3all on line with JQ. ( ones who did not kicked out)
Half of JQ4 on line, some doing endo, some still waiting.( 1 got boot)
Jq5 told next match endo. ( 1 got boot)
Jq6,7,8 no hope.
9 and 10 postponed ( canned)

[Flyboat North]

I think you will find that there were no QF cadets post 2008 , in terms of commencing on the program from 2009 onwards.

Or if there were any QF classes commencing post 2008 , really just "token" numbers to keep the program alive.

2007 was the year of the big ramp up for the QF cadetship, so reasonable numbers commencing in 2008 but it all went south after that.

There was a group of 50 selected to commence in 2009 , subsequently reduced to 5 , then subsequently reduced to zero

So I am not sure what you mean with your dates ? , are talking about years of commencement or completion ?

What I was saying was that out of the say 2010/11 cohort at the aviation degree Unis , you would find around 30% still actively pursuing pilot careers at most. And that 12 months post-course at least 50% would have dropped out, most grads never to us the CPL to earn a single solitary cent.

You are thinking of the QF cadetship prior to when work exp was done with Qlink. The farming out of cadets to Mac, Air North , Skippers etc ceased from around 05/06 from that point on all QF cadets went to Qlink. Much easier to manage.

So there was a job for them at the end of training, sometimes there was a wait, but such is life. A limo and red carpet to pick you up to on the day of completion of your training was never part of the deal

As you know over last mainline class was January 2009. So cadets from that point on just stayed with Qlink, many now captains, or moved on to other airlines.

Jetstar commence cadetship mid 2010, and positions in this program offered to all current QF cadets doing training at Swinburne. About half take it, and get RPL based on how much they have done. The rest elect to remain in the QF systems obviously hoping for a turnaround at QF mainline, and proceed to Qlink.

Interestingly the two Unis involved with the QF cadetship , Swinburne and Griffith keep plugging it ,and how they have been selected to run the "Qantas Cadetship" for years after it closed.

With regard to Jetstar program both flying schools told there will be no mid-year intake this year. Current Jetstar cadets not told anything as is appropriate , any decisions about their commencement will be made when they have completed. Jetstar want them to do A320 endo's just prior to commencing line training, so that is one reason for a delay.

QF did initiate a hiring freeze for all non-QF pilots at Jetstar franchises back in March, as they see this as a potential LWOP etc destination for QF pilots , they stay "in" the system , avoid redundancy payouts etc. But even in four weeks this has already been relaxed and some of the franchises have put on "outsiders" (meaning not a cadet or QF transfer).

Sure QF will have to reduce numbers but they have five (soon to be six) different Jetstar franchises to soak up those who wish to go there, same deal with Emirates who clearly could take large numbers.

So you might even find that the decision to not to run a mid-year Jetstar course is reversed, as was the "hiring freeze" at other Jetstar franchises.

[deadcut]

Flyboat,

So if jetstar only take 2-3% of the applicants! the cream of the crop etc then what are the rest of us silly peasants supposed to do? Give up our dreams of being pilots?
If that was me being rejected from a cadetship I sure as hell wouldn't let my faith be decided by some guy from HR.

[Flyboat North]

Well it is a free country and people can do what they please.

The point is with CPLs/Av degrees etc, many people find themselves in their early twenties with a CPL/IR/Av Degree and a six figure HECS debt. Their employment prospects are virtually zero, no instructing jobs in the city and they have never been to the outback, that is why 50% drop out within twelve months. So they are on the dole whilst their cohorts from secondary school have started grad jobs in the $60K to $90K range.

Take a look at the advertising , you had the two Qantas cadet Unis promote the program for years after it has closed down, also telling potential students that at the end of three years you can be a "regional airline first officer" - just complete BS.

One Uni now promoting it's exclusive "Cathay/ Our Uni pilot cadetship" - the program has been closed for nearly a year, it was never an "exclusive" that this uni had anyway. People who do not have aviation contacts/family believe the fantasy stories perpetuated by the training organizations.

Heard one Uni got a few pilots along from an airline that has never had a crash - saying to the 300 assembled for the info night " there is no reason why we couldn't take 60% of the people in this room" - three years on post GFC , said airline had in fact taken four or five from this course. Yes you guessed correct the same Uni where you had to be a current student before actually applying to the QF Cadetship.

The reality is that you will have at best a 20% chance of achieving the goal in ten years - but people will see what they wish to see. And I think that is one reason why you see so much angst with regard to these programs, from people in the GA sector still hanging on to a "dream" - not prepared to let go and accept reality.

So what I would suggest is.

1. Join the ADF in any of three services via an ADFA degree in direct from school

2. Apply for cadetships , but in the mean time gain a skillset that you can actually get well paid work from , whether that be via a Uni Degree or trade or some other mechanism - the plan B

3. Keep apply for cadetships you are likely to luck out eventually, and keep gaining experience in your profession/tech trade. In the event that you are considering self fund choose a prof /tech trade that is highly "transportable" , allied health , IT , Eng , Elec/mech tech stuff.

4. Consider ADF trade to set up your back up plan B, tech electronics trades - lots of advantages over civilian trade

5. Self fund if you wish but don't do it without the backup plan , otherwise you just end up at the age of 21/22 just another unemployed GA pilot and likely never use your licence in anger.

Has anyone ever met anyone who was glad they did an aviation degree ?

[Advs]

Has anyone ever met anyone who was glad they did an aviation degree ?[/QUOTE]
Me!
Hasn't worked out too bad so far

[deadcut]

Flyboat,

Who told you that it is hard to get a job in GA? Virtually zero? You are quite simply uninformed.

Yes you have to go "BUSH" :ooh::ooh::ooh: This bush you are talking about are still small towns and communities. To be honest you grow to despise big towns with all the traffic and general commotion.

It simple to get a job in GA. Go up north and knock on some doors. Don't be a sheltered aerosexual from Sydney sending emails to all the companies. If you are a someone who can sit down for a beer and talk about **** rather than aviation then you will get a job if you put your mind to it.

The reality is that you have no idea. Although I totally agree with you about the aviation degrees. What a waste of time!

[Strobe Runner]

Flyboat North

Who currently signs your paycheck?

I genuinely ask this because you seem to have an inside line to the inner workings of the recruiting departments of all the majors. Is there more detailed information that you can bestow upon us mere mortals?

[waren9]

fbn is piss and wind. dont know why you guys bother. he cant argue against any points made by others and continues off on his own little tangents. probably to try and make himself feel better about being in a 100k hole with no job.

[Humbly Reserved]

Stop stalling FBN! and clue us in to your background/experience while your at it please.

HR

[mcgrath50]

Having met the bloke around mb, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that he won't tell you his current aviation status

So he is a real person and not just a troll? Interesting. How could you tell it was him? The over sized Ray Bans or the look of disgust he gave to every piston he passed?

[AviatoR21]

FPVdude spill the beans! Does this guy even have a CPL? So he's not a cadet....

[FLGOFF]

Flyboat north, honest question

Flyboat,

Who told you that it is hard to get a job in GA? Virtually zero? You are quite simply uninformed.

Who currently signs your paycheck?


fbn is piss and wind

Stop stalling FBN!

Having met the bloke around mb, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that he won't tell you his current aviation status

So he is a real person and not just a troll? Interesting

FPVdude spill the beans! Does this guy even have a CPL?

Definitely appears to be some kind on an obsession with Flyboat on a personal level. Necessary? Not really. Embarrassing? I think so.

[peterc005]

The bullying behaviour here of people towards FBN is shameful.

[pilotchute]

So Pete and FBN are BFF's?

[Flying Bear]

Bullying / personal obsessions...?

You're kidding, right?

FBN has a very polarised opinion, is clearly poorly informed in many areas of his argument (especially about GA) and writes with an unbelievably arrogant tone - I think that being called to justify his credentials and thereby lend weight to his case is very fair...

If he wants respect, he should show some to others here - rather than be a prissy little sh!tstirrer...

[Ted Nugent]

The bullying behaviour here of people towards FBN is shameful.

Give me a break, the guy belongs in a circus!

[Flyboat North]

Cadets to $100K

If the other thread is true it looks like the Junior FO at Jetstar will rise to a base of at least $80K , allow some overtime/allowances this puts you comfortably over $100K

Not a bad pay check 18 months out of high school, you might think , considering the average for a Uni grad is low 60s , and on average a 3.5 year course there.

I think it would be interesting if perhaps some of the graduating cohort from Swinburne or Griffith from 2012 or 2011 could give an accurate summary of grad destinations, success rate.

The data that I hear around the traps is that apart from the few , likely a maximum of 20% who are taking the instructor route in the Capitals the employment outcomes are pretty hopeless.

Certain to stay that way for a few years with the magic man at Virgin losing hundreds of mill, QF a half nose behind , and the QF RIN people moving over to Jestar.

The advertising from both Unis tell you that a reasonable graduate expectation is a "regional airline first officer" as we know that just doesn't happen. One Uni actually claims you will be qualified to be a "maritime search and rescue pilot" - bizarre claims really that that have no basis in reality. But what can you expect when Griffith is touting it's exclusive Cathay Aviation Griffith Pilot cadetship ?

It is all about filling quoto's and it is a shame to see Aust Unis give clearly incorrect information to potential students. Most other faculties don't engage in that kind of behavior

The Cathay advanced program has been closed for well over a year , and there is no current plan to open it again.

A shame that young people often believe all this blatantly incorrect advertising , and find themselves in pile of debt , a degree and license where they are effectively unemployable.

Good news for the JStar cadets in training though - very hefty payrise there.

[mcgrath50]

You'll have no arguments from me the way universities advertise these courses is misguided at best and fraudulent at worst.

Out of my graduating cohort when we were a year after graduation. The stats were roughly:

Students on 1st day of course: ~80
Students at the end of course: ~40
Students who completed and looked for flying work: ~25
Students who got jobs as instructors: 10-15
Students who went 'up North': 3
Students who got a job 'up North': 3
Students who got into cadet/traineeships after graduation: ~10

My thesis on why there is such a huge drop out and why so few complete the course on time is partly the disorganisation of the course and partly that many people were taken in by the flashy advertising in university guides and didn't have the dedication to make it through and out into the industry.

But as you can see of those who did have the motivation to battle through the disorganisation and complete on time just about all are employed. Everyone who went up north got a gig. It wasn't easy for anyone and I'm certainly not saying these jobs came because of the degree.

What I am saying is you can get a job in GA.

[Flyboat North]

It's a shame that Universities resort to spivvy advertising, as in past years , and I am sure it is still true of most faculties at most Unis you will get a reasonably accurate appraisal of the employment situation for graduates of their discipline.

One of the Uni Aviation Heads in fact used to publish research papers on Women's menstrual cycles before he decided to be an "aviation expert".

The data you present is interesting about what I would have thought. Sounds a little high on the instructor/cadets numbers but you know the cohort not me.

I don't imagine they would be making any dint on their $100K HECs for a number of years, working the desk employed as a casual flying instructor.

True a lot of the Uni/Av grads got a good run from the advanced cadetships, but that is over now, Jetstar advanced shut a few years back, Cathay Advanced closed for about 12 months, Qlink just recently. (Also note that the famed exclusive rolled gold "Griffith Aviation Cathay Pacific Cadetship" is was also known as the Cathay Advanced with no advantage to Griffith students )

You can always get lucky as one Swinburne grad who has just completed A320 training at one of the overseas Jetstar franchises did (a local cadet had failed and they needed someone quick) - but that doesn't happen very often.

The other tangible that people have to consider is that the RAAF is very overstocked with aircrew atm (nowhere to go) , hence the introduction of the "gate" for those who pass BFTS. 120 to 150 are "winged" in the ADF every year, and you are going to have to compete against them at the other end for jobs.

I think I will go read a biology book right now.

[27/09]

After repeated requests for Flyboast North to give us all some idea of his/her aviation experience to give himself/herself some credibility.

Still nothing, I guess Flyboast Norths actual aviation experience is like his /her credibility, Nil.

[mcgrath50]

My point was though that all these people didn't have cadetships when they started training. Of those who finished most got a job, as advanced cadets (or whatever each airline calls them), as instructors and even as charter pilots! My numbers contradict your numbers that a CPL holder looking for work will find it impossible.

It's by no means easy but the jobs are out there! :ok:

[dl_88]

@mcgrath50 have to agree with you on that, but there is more than 1 uni cohort graduating at any one time plus other flying schools too; and there is only so many job available out there. So more often than not there would be more supply than demand.

I'm just stating some observation i noticed. Cant say much about my cohort, i (was) an intl student, with only a couple of aussie in my cohort.

14 of us started, 12 completed the course. if i'm not wrong the local guys are in the process of landing jobs or in a waiting list for 1.

[206greaser]

FBN, so you don't like aviation courses at uni's, you don't like GA, but you love cadet programs. Great, thanks mate we get it.

You sound pretty bitter. Like someone who likes the idea of being a pilot, but is not willing to make any sacrifices. You are not a pilot, never will be. You do not have what it takes. You often mention how much coin certain drivers are getting or going to get. All the pilots I know have got out and worked hard and applied themselves to succeeding. We talk about money, but no one becomes a pilot to make money. Sure we want to fly a jet, but realise that there is so much more to aviation than flying big jets. Your attitude and information about GA is all wrong, and that's why you'll never be a pilot. You may fly a plane, but there's more to being a pilot than sitting in a control seat.

You have hijacked a thread for too long. Go away.

Cheers,
Greaser

[Ted Nugent]

If the other thread is true it looks like the Junior FO at Jetstar will rise to a base of at least $80K , allow some overtime/allowances this puts you comfortably over $100K

JFO flex line FO's are not renowned for their OT!

Good news for the JStar cadets in training though - very hefty payrise there.

Hows that recruitment freeze going?

[SammK]

I decided to start this thread back up again a while ago, and after about 1 and a half posts, income the jealous GA guys.

Everyone please note the title of the thread "Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program" not "Cadets vs GA" and stop fighting over who gets the biggest salary, or who has more experience, who has gotten there the quickest etc. GA and Airline are two different professions/lifestyles, and there is no point having a brawl over which is best.:ugh:

Just post constuctive comments on the damn cadet program. If you guys have no idea what it is, and are just trying to pressure people into GA, then please, go away.

So now that's out of the way, can we start a decent discussion?
Sort of like, things that people might want to know visiting this thread? maybe?
e.g.

How long it takes to FO
How long you have to wait for TR training
The costs in detail of the course
Even how to get into CTC or OAA in the first place (this is the hard part)


This probably wont work, but I tried :}

[FLGOFF]

How long it takes to FO
How long you have to wait for TR training
The costs in detail of the course


Read through this. www.swinburne.edu.au/science-engineering-technology/schools/engineering/departments/aviation/flying/documents/2014-Associate-Degree-Info-Sheet.pdf

It covers the training stages and costs in detail. You won't get a definite answer in regards to the time spent between completing the first phase and undertaking the type rating. It all depends on the circumstances at the time.

March 2015 will be the next course provided it's confirmed.

[VH-FTS]

and after about 1 and a half posts, income the jealous GA guys
I don't think jealousy has been the main reason behind many of the posts. Many contributors are, or have been, employed by airlines and are trying to give additional insight. Just because you don't like what they're saying doesn't make them wrong.


A cadetship is a very good way to get into an airline quickly, no one is arguing that. What is being argued are the real reasons why Jetstar started the cadetship in the first place ($$$), the pitfalls of the scheme (potentially no job at the end), plus the lack of experience a JFO initially brings to the flightdeck. One must also consider the very low chance they'll have getting in - plenty of very good pilots have missed out on cadetships, but still made it to an airline eventually.


Many pilots that have 'been there, done that' also have mentioned you'll miss out on a hell of a lot of fun, experiences and friendships by not following GA. But maybe those things are less important in today's 'social media' society.


Somehow the arguments started about flying schools and universities lying to potential students. Well, guess what? That's been happening for years and is nothing new! Many other training providers for other industries do the same thing too!


Whatever path you take, if you have the right attitude, can network (i.e. make friends at the simplest level) and are serious about learning your trade, you will achieve your goal. The only things that will stop new pilots leaving their comfort zone and succeeding are laziness, nerves, money or girls.

[27/09]

SammK

You didn't start this thread, the one you started was merged into this one.

Yes, there is plenty of bitching about cadetships generally because of why they have been introduced and not due to any animosity to the cadets themselves, with the odd exception. You need to understand this cadetship programme was introduced for one reason and one reason only, to reduce pilots wages.

However there is some good information in this thread if you bother to look.

The questions you pose in your last post are probably best answered by the training providers. If you're not comfortable with their replies then there in lies the answers to whether or or not to do a cadetship.

Which ever way you go, self improver/GA/airline, or cadet it will be crap shoot as to which is the best way to go. Ask the recently graduated Jeststar cadets who have been told, "No job" what they think. Right now the self improver/GA/airline option is probably the best. In a few years time the cadetship might be better.

However never lose sight of the reason why Jetstar introduced this cadetship.

[solowflyer]

What fts said. So true the last bit see it time and time again.

[FLGOFF]

Ask the recently graduated Jeststar cadets who have been told, "No job" what they think

Where did you find this out from?

[SammK]

Thanks for that info sheet, FLGOFF.
So I assume that the majority of phase 1 is spent at Swinburne, and only the practical at OAA?

[AviatoR21]

This entire thread has been an absolute disgrace, everyone get over yourselves. Concentrate on number 1(you) and disregard what every one else is doing. There's been no advice given but as typical as the industry is in this country, everyone and anyone will climb over each other just to look better.

If we all had the opportunity to join an airline at 20 and not do GA we all would. Only problem with some cadets is their arrogance and Maverick attitudes. These guys get shut down quickly especially when they can't even read a TAF!! Most of them are willing to learn! Minorities will always bring down the entire group so let's just get on with the job! Over and out!!

[FLGOFF]

Thanks for that info sheet, FLGOFF.
So I assume that the majority of phase 1 is spent at Swinburne, and only the practical at OAA?

No problem. All the CASA license theory is completed at OAA in addition to the practical flying. The time spent completing the Associate Degree of Aviation at Swinburne is minimal. Only about one day a week will be spent at Swinburne, and the remaining 3-4 days are spent at OAA.

[27/09]

FLGOFF Quote:
Ask the recently graduated Jeststar cadets who have been told, "No job" what they think
Where did you find this out from?

I have it on pretty good authority that that latest graduates of the CTC Jetstar cadet programme have been told no jobs for them.

[FYSTI]

Rumours, true or false?


Jetstar Cadet programme cancelled or suspended.
Cadets mid-programme receive a refund.

[BlatantLiar]

Cadets mid-programme receive a refund.

That would be amazing if true. The students dont know it yet but if thats the case they just hit the jackpot.

[Flying Bear]

Flyboat North - care to grace us with your wisdom on this??

[BlatantLiar]

Flyboat North - care to grace us with your wisdom on this??

We dont need more of his verbal diarrhoea.

[thec172man]

I doubt jetstar would cancel the course midway through, they most likely would rather have a pool of cadets ready once recruitment restarts again, plus the cadets don't pay jetstar, they'd be on FEE-HELP, don't think JQ has the power to make Swinburne refund the course fees already paid.

[BlackPrince77]

I'd agree, Jetstar don't have anything to do with the cadets until they have finished their Phase 1 training in Australia and New Zealand. It is only then after when they go to do their A320 type-rating that the cadets sign a contract with Jetstar.
So up until then, they are really just doing an accelerated aviation course with Oxford in Aus or CTC in NZ, using FEE-HELP in Australia and whatever the equivalent is in NZ. And with the potential position of an F/O in Jetstar subject to successful completion of the course and a position available in Jetstar.

This isn't the first time cadets have been told "no job for now, we'll contact you later when we have room"... It happened a few years ago and those guys after waiting 12 months all got jobs.

Only difference now is the state of the Qantas group which is quite significant. :confused:

[Lindstrim]

The CTC one is all personal funding.

And the current ones training have been told there is no guarantee of jumping straight into the jet, go get another job and we will call you.

[Flyboat North]

The program goes on as per normal, the cadets will graduate and as standard protocol applies:

"Upon successful completion of the Jetstar Australia Pilot Cadet Program, you will be offered with a place in the conditional employee reserve with airline. There is the intention to employ successful cadet pilots however it is dependent on the position vacancy and industry performance at the time"

The mid-year intake was cancelled a few months ago because the QF group knew then what would be in the papers today. Not a good look to have a cadet intake in one part of the business, whilst reducing in another part of the business, also reducing your negotiating power a tad.

The above is not a guarantee of employee, quite close to it though. The reason there is no guarantee is because of the reasons alluded to by Keg the other week, detailing his commencement with QF with the Adelaide cadets back around 94.

Not a great redundancy deal negotiated by AIPA, rule of thumb one month per year is good , with two weeks per year as the minimum & it is capped quite low.

Heard the other day that the wage bill for the Long Haul pilots on reserve is 100 mill pa, no wonder that the business that was given to Qantas for free by the taxpayer has been sucked dry in twenty years.

[Emmett111]

Hey unfortunately they have stopped taking people from the jetstar cadet programme and have encouraged people who have recently completed it to go and look for other jobs, there are quite a number of guys who have completed it without jobs

[FLGOFF]

Uh-oh here we go again..

[slice]

What makes flytwat a complete crackup is the fact that his first post on Pp was less than 18 moths ago asking about inst ratings and subsequently trolling for details of various cadet schemes(so a 38 year old wannabe?). Although he craps on about the wonderful Jetstar cadet scheme he certainly isn't part of it. Lately just vitriolic dribble mostly aimed at Qantas Crew (and a whinge about Virgins' cadet program). Bitter with a twist!:E

[V-Jet]

FB: Qantas has been sucked dry in 20 years, not the other way around...

You have no airline understanding at all.

[skysook]

It's confirmed that at least 2 pilots from a regional airline in AUS have been given a start date within the next few weeks. Anyone else know more? Numbers? Future ground schools? Recruitment plans? This, I believe is the first indication of some long awaited movement :)

[AviatoR21]

What?! FBN didn't get a start date? Lol.

[Going Nowhere]

4 from QLD, possibly more down South.

[Cravenmorehead]

Jetstar recruiting is not a surprise nor would it surprise me if Virgin took a few. That is they way it used to be small intakes spread out through the year to cover attrition. Then the flow on effect of that through the regionals. That was the way it was when Ansett ,Qantas and TAA ruled the skies.
The period we have just seen was unprecedented; aligning of the planets,to create unsustainable growth in the aviation pilot supply chain.It was great but unfortunately the party is over. The downside I feel was the cadet schemes, but we won't go into that anymore, I hope they get what they work for.
Anyway good to see a few getting a guernsey. I hope that it continues and those waiting in the wings be patient and enjoy the ride. This is the new black I am afraid, in the recruitment scene.
Craven.

[KRUSTY 34]

Australian airline's love affair with Cadetships might be coming to an end! Or at the very least a rethink on the whole economics of the thing.

The beginning of the end was more than likely the AFAP's successful action in having these people paid equitable wages. Along with the disastrous and ill conceived scam of having the Newbies trained in NZ, and an increase in experienced candidates.

RIP!

[FLGOFF]

ill conceived scam of having the Newbies trained in NZ

The Cadetship run in accordance with CTC in NZ was an option, the other option has always been the Ab-Initio program with CAE Oxford in Melbourne. How is it a scam, when there's training being conducted in Australia too.....:ugh:

[Ted Nugent]

It's confirmed that at least 2 pilots from a regional airline in AUS have been given a start date within the next few weeks. Anyone else know more? Numbers? Future ground schools? Recruitment plans? This, I believe is the first indication of some long awaited movement

Current recruitment ban in force so any start dates are unlikely.

The Cadetship run in accordance with CTC in NZ was an option, the other option has always been the Ab-Initio program with CAE Oxford in Melbourne. How is it a scam, when there's training being conducted in Australia too.....

Mate, the whole thing is a scam to reduce wages, nothing more, nothing less!

[Going Nowhere]

Current recruitment ban in force so any start dates are unlikely.

They have letters with start dates, bases and training details. Sounds pretty convincing to me!

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks Ted.

Sometimes you have to spell it out :rolleyes:. I should of said line training on NZ pesos, and inferior conditions. :)

[Lookleft]

Current recruitment ban in force so any start dates are unlikely.

Commercial and HR are finally discovering that aeroplanes actually need someone to fly them. So if you bring in extra airframes then you need extra pilots regardless of some arbitrary recruitment ban.

It also explains why direct entry F/O's are being recruited as they only need 100hours of line training and not the 200 that cadets need.

[skysook]

Where does it say recruitment ban? I can 100% tell you now that at least 2 pilots have confirmed start dates (letters of offer). So what ever recruitment ban you speak of is now non-existent.

[Ted Nugent]

Where does it say recruitment ban? I can 100% tell you now that at least 2 pilots have confirmed start dates (letters of offer). So what ever recruitment ban you speak of is now non-existent.

Good news then!

I was under the impression that its was group policy due to mainline bleeding cash.

Commercial and HR are finally discovering that aeroplanes actually need someone to fly them. So if you bring in extra airframes then you need extra pilots regardless of some arbitrary recruitment ban.

No fleet growth, new frames are replacing end of lease frames, planned Hong Kong frames never came, maybe they know something we don't?

[Ted Nugent]

It also explains why direct entry F/O's are being recruited as they only need 100hours of line training and not the 200 that cadets need.

Direct entry generally don't need babysitting after line training either!:E

[Lookleft]

I think that the 10 commands recently advertised are for additional airframes. If it was just to cover attrition back to QF it wouldn't require a sudden round of recruiting.

[Ted Nugent]

I think the latest commands will go MOU, so replacing like for like, maybe a couple of FO upgrades in there. Its anyones guess what the grand plan is.

[Lookleft]

What I heard is that senior F/O's on the widebody would have got them if they had only bid.

[FLGOFF]

I know the status of the JetStar cadetship has been in the dark for a while now, but finally news from JetStar and CAE Oxford. Looks like it's the end of cadetships for the major Australian airlines, or at least for the "near future". I'm sure many here will be happy.

Jetstar Australia recently reviewed its upcoming recruitment requirements and has confirmed that there is no need to schedule course intakes for the Jetstar Ab Initio Cadet Program in the near future. The March 2015 course intake will not be offered by CAE Oxford Aviation Academy Melbourne.

[The Green Goblin]

There was only ever one reason for the cadet program. They were cheaper.

The moment the Feds got their base pay increased and they became as expensive as a direct entry FO with more training, supervision and restrictions, the cadet program was doomed.

I hope there are not too many out there with expensive training and no job.

[Lookleft]

Slowly all Big Brucies ideas are being discarded from Jetstar. Cadets, Darwin base, Singapore based A330's. The original cadet scam was to have them based in NZ on NZ pay rates. Once that was found to be illegal it all started to unravel. The pilots who were able to get on board early are now 787 F/O's so it has worked for them. The people who have finished a very expensive course with no job at the end of it will rue the day they trusted anything a Jetstar recruiter told them.

[sled]

Exactly the same has happened with the Qlink traineeship, except with probably bigger numbers. Around 50 have completed the incredibly expensive training and then left out to dry as the company hires recently interviewed DE over them (and now no one). Nothing against the DE guys, however I am close to one of the trainees and he has been treated appallingly by the company and now financially ruined.

[pilotchute]

Sled,

How has been "financially ruined"? Wasnt the whole thing was done on fee help funding?

[sled]

If it was available to you I believe a proportion of it could be placed on VET FEE yes, however I don't think that was available to him at the time. There is also still a substantial gap in the funding that they where required to fill even if the government loan was available. $10k for ATPL subjects alone I am told!! This is the CPL entry level course I am talking about.

[deadcut]

So why doesn't he go and get a job outside of Q link?
If he was competitive enough to get a place in the cadetship then I am sure he will be able to get another job in GA.

[porch monkey]

So, where is PeterC and that other knob jockey fool boat? Thought it was all great on the cadet thingy.....:E

[sled]

Deadcut,

Definitely easier said than done at the moment for low hour guys, he has been trying to do so for the best part of a year.

[Popgun]

I ran into a few Jetstar trainees/cadets recently at a local GA airport.

They had no clue when/if they would be offered a job.

Has there been any inside rumours/info on this situation of late?

PG

[sizzle66]

I ran into a few Jetstar trainees/cadets recently at a local GA airport.

They had no clue when/if they would be offered a job.

Has there been any inside rumours/info on this situation of late?

PG

I believe that 95% AUS JQ cadets have been offered a job and have either completed type rating, or currently completing their rating.

[dr dre]

Yeah,
With QF guys returning from LWOP, EK and other internationals vacuuming up people, there shortly won't be many JQ cadet graduates who aren't flying or aren't being trained up soon.

[nightaye]

Just wondering does anyone know what the physics and aviation knowledge test comprises of for Jetstar?

[Pizza4231]

Just wondering if there is anyone willing to share information regarding the Jetstar cadetship program for 2019. I'm aware that there are a few previous threads concerning the cadetship, however, it seems most have just spiralled into toxic arguments, here's to another try?
1. What can you do to make your online application stand out, to proceed onto the ADAPT test??
2. Are all these practice ADAPT tests you can find online very accurate (as most require payment)??
3. I graduated highschool a couple of years ago so I believe some basic math revision would be beneficial, however, is there anything else worth revising in order to be more prepared for the whole application process??
4. Any info regarding the questions they'll be asking throughout the interviews?
5. Approx. how many candidates are chosen for the cadet program?

I've already been in contact with CAE Oxford Aviation, and they believe the application process will begin around April again, they also informed me that having any kind of flight experience/knowledge gives you no priority over any other candidate...

Thanks

[thisishardtochoose]

1. Be a female
2. possibly
3. Basic maths should suffice although i doubt anyone questioning your maths skills during interview process
4. Mostly about yourself and why you chose JQ and such. Do your JQ research
5. 10-15 I think

lastly, good luck. Enjoy the process!

[roger7060]

Guys what is the upper age limit? Is it true that one has to cough out 150K upfront?

[Pizza4231]

I'm pretty certain you don't pay the full 150K upfront, you most likely pay it in installments, just like when studying at a university (which is part of the cadetship), you also have the potential to get FEE-HELP from the government (I think they'll loan you around 100k). Based on past forums, I've read some people being accepted into the cadetship late 30s even, not quite sure 40s beyond

[roger7060]

I'm pretty certain you don't pay the full 150K upfront, you most likely pay it in installments, just like when studying at a university (which is part of the cadetship), you also have the potential to get FEE-HELP from the government (I think they'll loan you around 100k). Based on past forums, I've read some people being accepted into the cadetship late 30s even, not quite sure 40s beyond
Thank you Captain. Much appreciated. So they are going to open the program in April 19?

[Pizza4231]

Thank you Captain. Much appreciated. So they are going to open the program in April 19?
No specific date just yet, was only informed to be on the lookout 'around' April.

[RHSandLovingIt]

I'm pretty certain you don't pay the full 150K upfront, you most likely pay it in installments, just like when studying at a university (which is part of the cadetship), you also have the potential to get FEE-HELP from the government (I think they'll loan you around 100k).
Unfortunately, if I remember correctly... roger7060 only has Australian Permanent Residency, not citizenship.

From the J* Cadetship booklet (available here: https://www.jetstar.com/au/en/careers/media/jetstar-careers/client/Cadetship-Program/jetstar-cadet-pilot-program-vs5-sept18.pdf )

Is financial assistance available?
It is expected that any Australian citizen admitted into the Jetstar Ab Initio Cadet Program and Associate Degree will be eligible for FEE-HELP. Australian Permanent Residents and New Zealand citizens are not eligible for FEE-HELP.

FEE-HELP is a loan available to eligible students to cover the Tuition Fee up to the maximum FEEHELP loan limit. A maximum lifetime FEE-HELP loan limit applies; in 2018 the FEE-HELP loan limit is $102,392. The Associate Degree of Aviation has a total estimated cost of $149,014 of which $102,392 (2018 Loan Limit) can be offset with the FEE-HELP loan.

This means that students must meet upfront $32,793 of university tuition fees plus the $13,829 for expected additional expenses listed above. This gives an estimated total upfront cost which will not be covered by FEE-HELP of $46,622 (Students who may already have an accumulated HECS debt may incur additional costs)


Also, this course is designed to take 18 months, so it isn't spread over multiple years like a "normal" university course would be... the wording in the booklet would suggest all fees need to be paid upfront. :ouch:

Might pay to contact CAE and have a chat with them... better to get the information direct from the horses mouth:

Who can I contact for more information?
CAE Web: www.cae.com/jetstar/
Phone: 03 8587 3900 (http://www.caeoaa.com/jetstar/)

[CaramelSky]

Anyone know what the time commitment is for the course? Eg. Can days be taken off for special events etc?

[BEVLY9]

Anyone know what the time commitment is for the course? Eg. Can days be taken off for special events etc?

what’s your definition of special event?
These programs are usually planned with every day utilised for flying/ground school with very little concern for extra curricular activities

[CaramelSky]

what’s your definition of special event?
These programs are usually planned with every day utilised for flying/ground school with very little concern for extra curricular activities

Siblings wedding, or my birthday for example.

[Capt Fathom]

Siblings wedding, or my birthday for example.

You can kiss them goodbye!

[SOPS]

Anyone know what the time commitment is for the course? Eg. Can days be taken off for special events etc?

You want to be a pilot and your asking that question?

[ZebraFlyer]

Siblings wedding, or my birthday for example.

Don’t listen to those other Debby downers. I had a part time job and they were very flexible because they understand everyone needs to live, you can just work it out with your instructor. I was far too old to be living with my parents and/or living in student accomodation. Some mid week days are non negotiable but only for a few hours.

[CaramelSky]

Don’t listen to those other Debby downers. I had a part time job and they were very flexible because they understand everyone needs to live, you can just work it out with your instructor. I was far too old to be living with my parents and/or living in student accomodation. Some mid week days are non negotiable but only for a few hours.

Thanks so much for your response, its actually been helpful and not antagonistic. Is it okay if I PM you?

[ZebraFlyer]

Thanks so much for your response, its actually been helpful and not antagonistic. Is it okay if I PM you?

Go for it.

[illusion]

Anyone know what the time commitment is for the course? Eg. Can days be taken off for special events etc?

That's as hopeful as asking how flexible is the sexual harassment policy...

[CaramelSky]

That's as hopeful as asking how flexible is the sexual harassment policy...

Why bother commenting if you're going to be so antagonistic? Forget about it.

[ZebraFlyer]

Thanks so much for your response, its actually been helpful and not antagonistic. Is it okay if I PM you?

"CaramelSky has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

[CaramelSky]

"CaramelSky has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."
Oh thats weird... sorry about that! Try again :)

[chuq]

I am interested in joining the Jetstar Cadetship program next year. On Jetstar's own website it states that they are "Not Currently Accepting Applications." I am extremely confused as I am sure they took in cadets as recently as 2022. If anyone has any information on when they will open up again or if it is even still running, it would be greatly appreciated.

Also trying to figure out if you get offered a job or at least get an interview at the end of it all.

[ajax58]

I am interested in joining the Jetstar Cadetship program next year. On Jetstar's own website it states that they are "Not Currently Accepting Applications." I am extremely confused as I am sure they took in cadets as recently as 2022. If anyone has any information on when they will open up again or if it is even still running, it would be greatly appreciated.

Also trying to figure out if you get offered a job or at least get an interview at the end of it all.

It's all done, look elsewhere. Apparently some of the Qantas academy graduates got taken by JQ recently so I guess that's the way forward.

[LNVVNV]

They still took cadets in mid 2022, and since the mid 2020 intake, no one was offered a letter of guarantee at the start of their training, i know a jetstar training and checking's son who completed it december last year and now can't find a job, don't see it starting up again anytime soon.

[ajax58]

They still took cadets in mid 2022, and since the mid 2020 intake, no one was offered a letter of guarantee at the start of their training, i know a jetstar training and checking's son who completed it december last year and now can't find a job, don't see it starting up again anytime soon.

The mid 2022 intake got letters.