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Cacophonix
21st May 2013, 06:42
Have been following the major outbeak in the Mid West since Sunday night and was appalled to hear about the major disaster in Oklahoma City...

Thoughts, prayers and best wishes to all the folks there and especially those PPRuNeRs who might have been impacted...

Oklahoma City tornado: disaster declared as scores found dead - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10070034/Oklahoma-City-tornado-disaster-declared-as-scores-found-dead.html)

Caco

Maxbert
21st May 2013, 06:52
Just sent a PM to con-pilot... Hope he's tucked up in bed, sound asleep.

Thoughts to local PPRuNers, and all Oklahomans :(

Maxbert

500N
21st May 2013, 06:57
Saw the photos today, was shocked.

As you said, thoughts to all.

Worrals in the wilds
21st May 2013, 08:02
Holy cow, just watching it on the news. :eek::sad:
Con-pilot and other Oklahomans, all the best and good luck with the rebuild. That's a bad disaster.

dead_pan
21st May 2013, 08:23
Just seen the footage on the news - how awful. Condolences to all those involved.

con-pilot
21st May 2013, 08:45
Thank all of you for your thoughts and wishes, we are in Ireland but have been contacted by our house sitter and all is well where we live in OKC. Also have heard from everyone we know in the area hit by the tornado and all of them are okay.

News like this rather puts a damper on one's holiday.

Thank all again.

Con-pilot

dead_pan
21st May 2013, 09:03
One story of survival:

Okla. tornado survivor finds dog buried alive under rubble - CBS News Video (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50147264n)

..tempered by the fact the poor woman had to ask the film crew to help her rescue her dog.

Its miraculous how she and the dog managed to survive that devastation.

Worrals in the wilds
21st May 2013, 09:50
Also have heard from everyone we know in the area hit by the tornado and all of them are okay.
Glad to hear it. Many years ago on JB you gave support to our disaster, and it meant a lot. Sounds daggy, but it did. :ok:

Be assured that people on the other side of the world are thinking of you guys and wishing for many miraculous recoveries, awesome rescues and a bigger and better future where we can all give nasty weather the two fingered salute. :cool:

Maxbert
21st May 2013, 09:53
... What Worrals said :ok:

(Raises a deep-fried turkey leg to con)

Maxbert

OFSO
21st May 2013, 11:37
Anyone else here revolted by the media (Sky News in my case) asking shocked survivors questions such as "how did you feel when you knew your house had gone ?" or "your neighbours were dead ?" and the like. Not to mention cameras thrust in victim's faces as they are pulled out of wreckage.

So bad in fact I turned the news channel off.

Are the media the same in the USA ? Should be a place in hell reserved for them.

VFD
21st May 2013, 11:45
The tornado went just south of my location in OKC.

My house was destroyed in the May 3, 1999 tornado.

This is the 4th tornado that has taken almost identical paths in the last few years.

May 3, 1999 an F5 long track tornado
May 8, 2003 an F4 long track tornado
May 24, 2011 an F4 short track on the ground for a very short period.
May 5, 2013 appears at least an F4 long track

The combination of a large tornado and similar long tracks in such a short time frame just about beats the odds of the lottery.

VFD

beaufort1
21st May 2013, 12:22
Quite uncanny the 1999 track to this one. This graphic illustrates the point.

http://media.syracuse.com/news/photo/more-storm-trackspng-47871fa7670de12a.png

Lord Spandex Masher
21st May 2013, 13:14
Whilst I echo the sentiments heretofore stated in this thread I'd like to know why people choose to live in Tornado Alley? I mean, it is a bit daft isn't it.

West Coast
21st May 2013, 13:25
Where would you have them move? The entire Mid-west is subject to tornados. Move to the west coast and deal with the earthquakes? Perhaps to the south and deal with hurricanes?

Lord Spandex Masher
21st May 2013, 13:31
Not so much move them but not live there in the first place.

It seems to me that tornados in Tornado Alley are way more prevalent than earthquakes and hurricanes. It's not as if the west coast is known as Earthquake Passage nor the south as Hurricane Promenade is it.

I assume you would choose to live in Tornado Alley?

Lonewolf_50
21st May 2013, 13:31
Yes, OFSO, the media are the same here. :mad:

Spoke briefly to my cousin in OKC last night. His wife has family in Moore. Their house got hit. Have not heard further, fear the worst. :uhoh:

tony draper
21st May 2013, 13:31
Are there such things as public storm shelters,ie in say shopping areas ect?I mean at any given time a large percentage of the population must be out and about.
The other thing is it a legal requirement to have a storm cellar in all new built dwellings?.
I agree with Mr OFSO re the UK news coverage,why they feel it necessary to fly over their own team of wankers to every disaster when they could simply pick up a local news feed,admittedly also being journalists also probably wankers but wankers with at least some local knowledge.
:uhoh:

dead_pan
21st May 2013, 13:36
Just a thought, how about the US use some of their soon-to-be-replaced M113s for as tornado shelters? Park them hull-down or behind an earth berm, secure them to the concrete anchor points using heavy duty steel cables attached to the vehicle's hull. Surely an earth-sheltered and anchored APV would withstand most if not all of what a large tornado could throw at it?

Lonewolf: Just seen your post. Hope you get a good outcome there.

beaufort1
21st May 2013, 13:37
According to a report I've read elsewhere the geology of Oklahoma makes storm cellars prohibitive and difficult. The 'survival capsule' near the centre of any structure suffices in 97% of incidents, but with windspeeds estimated to be over 200 mph as in this case and the one in 1999 nothing above ground will survive.

rgbrock1
21st May 2013, 13:40
The media coverage of such disasters here in the U.S. is not different than it is in the UK. Whether it's a natural disaster or a man-made one is irrelevant to the talking heads of the media. They can come up with some real brain-dead questions.

Example: Back in December when the shooting at Newtown, CT was unfolding one of the local media pukes asked the parents of one of the kids who got out of the elementary school unscathed: "How did you feel when you found out your son was okay?"

How the f**k do you think they felt? Disappointed? Asshole.

G-CPTN
21st May 2013, 14:17
Apart from a general regional 48 hour warning, the specific warning was just 16 minutes . . .

V2-OMG!
21st May 2013, 14:19
Glad con-pilot and his home, loved ones, and pets are okay.

Such a human tragedy, but many pets were home alone when the tornado hit and are now missing, dead, or injured.

Lonewolf_50
21st May 2013, 14:40
dead pan, thanks for that. Still prayin' ...

My uncle (he lives in OKC) showed me last month where he was thinking about putting a storm cellar on his property. It's a prefab deal, about 10 x 10 x 7, and will be dug into the yard behind the back patio. Cost 12-18 thousand, depending. He's still taking bids. A lot of people can't afford that expense. He can.

Where people often go for a tornado shelter? Not infrequently, schools are often some of the strongest structures in small towns. :( If it's a high end EF4 or an EF5, I suppose you are screwed no matter where you are if it touches down.

Sixteen minutes of warning. That's about enough time to gather the family and find the lowest lying terrain and go lie in a ditch, if you don't have a shelter.

Reports were that this one was an EF4, and also that it was "a mile wide" which I don't quite understand.

Some history on tornadoes that hit populated areas ... top 25 in lethality

DATE LOCATION(S) DEATHS
1 18 Mar 1925 Tri-State (MO/IL/IN) 695
2 06 May 1840 Natchez MS 317
3 27 May 1896 St. Louis MO 255
4 05 Apr 1936 Tupelo MS 216
5 06 Apr 1936 Gainesville GA 203
6 09 Apr 1947 Woodward OK 181
7 22 May 2011 Joplin MO 158
8 24 Apr 1908 Amite LA, Purvis MS 143
9 12 Jun 1899 New Richmond WI 117
10 8 Jun 1953 Flint MI 116
11t 11 May 1953 Waco TX 114
11t 18 May 1902 Goliad TX 114
13 23 Mar 1913 Omaha NE 103
14 26 May 1917 Mattoon IL 101
15 23 Jun 1944 Shinnston WV 100
16 18 Apr 1880 Marshfield MO 99
17t 01 Jun 1903 Gainesville GA 98
17t 09 May 1927 Poplar Bluff MO 98
19 10 May 1905 Snyder OK 97
20 3 Jun 1860 Comanche IA, Albany IL 92
21 24 Apr 1908 Natchez MS 91
22 09 Jun 1953 Worcester MA 90
23 20 Apr 1920 Starkville MS to Waco AL 88
24 28 Jun 1924 Lorain/Sandusky OH 85
25 25 May 1955 Udall KS 80

MagnusP
21st May 2013, 14:43
Yet according to BHO, this was one of the most destructive in history. At least this time we can all give thanks that he's wrong as usual.

The death toll has been revised downwards, fortunately.

rgbrock1
21st May 2013, 14:45
Lonewolf wrote:

Not infrequently, schools are often some of the strongest structures in small towns.

And a reason why back in the 50's and 60's schools had so many nuclear bomb shelters in them.

vaqueroaero
21st May 2013, 16:38
More storms are headed through, looking at the radar image it doesn't look pretty.

We put in a storm shelter in February. It is buried in an unused corner of the yard and cost us $3600, which included taxes and installation. The peace of mind I have now is considerable. There are all sorts of tax breaks available if only local officials would bother to set them up. People say they can't afford them, but everyone has new trucks, cars, fancy vacations and other luxuries. I guess it's just how you want to allocate your resources.

My thoughts and prayers go out to those who have lost loved ones in this tragedy.

pigboat
21st May 2013, 17:05
Connie I found out you were ok via CofF and the book of faces. Have you heard from your son?

BenThere
21st May 2013, 17:05
I've said often that the best salesmen in the world sell mobile homes in Oklahoma.

Everyone needs a shelter plan if you live where tornados are a threat.

Yesterday's tornado at Moore, Oklahoma spent a long time on the ground and moved slowly, increasing its destruction.

Children in school should have had access to shelter. I can accept if the Moore education establishment thought they had provided shelter that proved to be inadequate for an exceptional storm. I can't accept if no provisions were made to protect young students living and attending school along Tornado Alley.

I think the city of Moore needs to build community shelters to withstand the worst nature can dish out in the form of tornados. Now.

airship
21st May 2013, 17:10
I stayed up until about 1.30am this morning here, having switched between the earlier BBC World's newspaper review, CNN, NBC, France 24 etc., when CNN broke the news about the tornadoes in OK and started their "continuous reporting" using mostly footage and commentary from their local (KFOR?) affiliate. I admit to having a perhaps somewhat unhealthy taste for anything to do with major natural catastrophes inc. tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes etc., especially when TV shows these events and aftermath "live" or more or less. I have 3 points to make:

1) CNN were more or less "exclusive with the coverage". They used it all for maximum impact. All the other International 24/24H news chains barely gave it anymore than 5 seconds in their own reports at the same time.

2) But CNN's early reports (apparently confirmed by the US coroner at the time), talked of over 80 "confirmed deaths" including at least 20 children in just one elementary (primary) school. These fatalities have now been revised much lower, by as much as 75%, for which I am, and many others in USA and their families today, must feel grateful to discover once the real situation had been verified. That does not excuse CNN's original (and mistaken) earlier reports of 4 times that many deaths initially. I'd really like to know if and how CNN eventually excuses itself - having an "exclusive" doesn't mean that you let your own reporters or those of your affiliates go on a virtual rampage, broadcasting ever-higher casualty figures (that sells doesn't it?), turning a drama into a crisis in order to just attract more viewers to CNN, whilst poorly informing the families worried about their loved ones. Just in case noone ever said this before: CNN, you suck. Sometimes you suck so bad, you should never have gonne into work and just called-in sick?! :yuk:

3) I already knew that con-pilot was touring in Eire. And glad to know that his property and especially pet wolves and cats etc. are safe... :ok:

Whatever, enough of all these cheap timber-framed houses (like made of cards and match-sticks) situated in the US tornado alleys. When rebuilding, spend 25-30% more, and build literally F3-F4 tornado-resistant above-ground abodes using reinforced concrete etc. You can find their websites on Google, or PM me. :confused:

rgbrock1
21st May 2013, 17:12
For a real-time (at that time) video of the tornado which struck Moore, OK see:

Time-lapse: Tornado's path of destruction - Video on NBCNews.com (http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nbc-news/51945473/#51945473)

glad rag
21st May 2013, 17:17
Fingers crossed for ya Lonewolf

Mo.

Dannyboy39
21st May 2013, 17:24
There's almost an equally severe threat for the DFW Metroplex and Oklahoma later today.

PukinDog
21st May 2013, 17:31
Do journalists think that this tragedy is lessened or there's a "bright spot" amidst the destruction and dead bodies because someone's dog survived?

Lonewolf_50
21st May 2013, 19:35
PukinDog, that's a good question, but news is about story telling. They try to toss in some "feel good" stuff to counterbalance the doom and gloom, sometimes.

I have quite a few less charitable comments, so I'll shut up now. :mad:

500N
21st May 2013, 19:41
"But CNN's early reports (apparently confirmed by the US coroner at the time), talked of over 80 "confirmed deaths" including at least 20 children in just one elementary (primary) school. These fatalities have now been revised much lower, by as much as 75%,"


I did wonder how the figure got up so high so quickly when most of the first responders were still pulling out survivors,
not looking for bodies.

And it didn't look like any central morgue had been set up either.

Very stupid media IMHO.

rgbrock1
21st May 2013, 19:46
Probably similar to the media reports at the time of the Newtown CT elementary school killings when the first media reports coming out spoke of casualties at about 100.

Or during 9/11 when some elements of the media were reporting casualties in the "tens of thousands."

It's one of many reasons why CNN (Chicken Noodle News) is full of shit.

500N
21st May 2013, 19:51
RGB

Yes, I remember that (Newtown).

Sensationalism at it's worst.

Ozzy
21st May 2013, 21:18
was worried about con-pilot glad he is safe

Those poor kids in the school :(

Ozzy

500N
21st May 2013, 22:03
We seem to be missing a post that I was in the process of replying to.

Re the "numbers" I understand the media is all about 24 hour
and ratings but why someone from Gov't doesn't tell them to
pull their heads in when it comes to quoting numbers plucked
out of thin air is beyond me.

I can't remember seeing any "quotes" as such from any Gov't official
and especially so quickly after such an event.

Pisses me off so I tend to have one look at the coverage
and leave it at that.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
21st May 2013, 22:41
Fear sells - to the average viewer.:(

Fear mongering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_mongering)

..some of the references at the bottom are well worth a read if you want to know more about the use of fear in/around TV advertising.

500N
21st May 2013, 22:44
Absolutely,

Thanks. Will have a read.

Cacophonix
21st May 2013, 23:16
The best of America comes out in these things. Folks will rebuild, their neighbours will support them.

Caco

West Coast
22nd May 2013, 01:09
Spandex

Do you grasp the vast expanses of the area described as tornado alley? It's not some narrow topography driven area of limited scope as the name might infer. This is an area larger than most euro countries, even groups of euro countries. Without doubt you'll post some pithy response to be a contrarian, it will simply speak either to an inability to grasp the vastness as the affected area represents roughly a third of a nation of almost 3 million sq miles (lower 48, over 3.5 million sq miles if you count all the states) or that you're simply a wind up.
There's important questions to be asked and answered but not why they live in the middle part of the US.

Don't hold your breath for some weather induced diaspora to the coasts. Midwesterners are a hardy breed and will rebuild. To answer your question, I would have no issue living in Oklahoma or elsewhere in the Midwest. The folks in this area are ones that I can identify with.

Many areas of the US have unique challenges from Mother Nature. Where I live, it's fires, floods and earthquakes, and those are just the natural ones.

Cacophonix
22nd May 2013, 01:13
From a statistical point of view you could live in places in Oklahoma for a hundred years and not see a funnel cloud. Moore is just an example of how stats don't care about people.

Caco

West Coast
22nd May 2013, 01:51
An absolute fact.

500N
22nd May 2013, 01:58
Spandex

That's like saying let's not live where Hurricanes occur
- which takes out the whole of the east coast of the USA,
the whole top of Australia and most of the equator regions.

Your thought process is a bit :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Pinky the pilot
22nd May 2013, 02:56
Hoping for the best for you and yours as well, Lonewolf.

According to a report I've read elsewhere the geology of Oklahoma makes storm cellars prohibitive and difficult.

Read the same myself. One article stated that the ground below the topsoil is too hard. Can anyone elaborate? Just curious.

11Fan
22nd May 2013, 03:48
Now wait a minute, Spandex may be on to something. Using his logic, we should probably abandon Planet Earth.

Christ, we could be hit by an asteroid at any moment. :eek:

vaqueroaero
22nd May 2013, 05:32
[QUOTE] One article stated that the ground below the topsoil is too hard. Can anyone elaborate? Just curious.[QUOTE]

I can't speak for Oklahoma, but I live in North Texas and the major construction problem we have is soil movement. We live on a clay cap which when it dries out in summer it has huge cracks in it, enough to break your ankle if you're not careful. The other problem is indeed that not too deep underground you can run into a layer of solid rock. This is apparently the primary reason houses don't have basements here. The houses are built on concrete slabs and you have to water the foundation regularly to try and keep the soil at the right consistency to support the weight of the house. If it goes wrong you literally can break the house in two.

We were fortunate that when we put in our pool there was no rock, but our neighbors a few hundred yards away had huge problems. In order to counteract the soil movement the pool company used twice the amount of steel as normal. As for the storm shelter we put in it was preformed, the guys dug a hole and dropped it in then back filled around it. The thing weighs nearly six tons and is surrounded by the dirt that was dug out of the hole. It's not going anywhere.

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd May 2013, 08:49
Spandex

Do you grasp the vast expanses of the area described as tornado alley? It's not some narrow topography driven area of limited scope as the name might infer. This is an area larger than most euro countries, even groups of euro countries. Without doubt you'll post some pithy response to be a contrarian, it will simply speak either to an inability to grasp the vastness as the affected area represents roughly a third of a nation of almost 3 million sq miles (lower 48, over 3.5 million sq miles if you count all the states) or that you're simply a wind up.
There's important questions to be asked and answered but not why they live in the middle part of the US.

Don't hold your breath for some weather induced diaspora to the coasts. Midwesterners are a hardy breed and will rebuild. To answer your question, I would have no issue living in Oklahoma or elsewhere in the Midwest. The folks in this area are ones that I can identify with.

Many areas of the US have unique challenges from Mother Nature. Where I live, it's fires, floods and earthquakes, and those are just the natural ones.

What does the size of the area have to do with it. I am not suggesting marching people out at gun point I'm asking why people would choose to settle there as its well known that dozens to hundreds of people will die in an encounter with some extreme weather every year. What kind of though process is that?! You want to put yourself in harms way don't expect sympathy when harm happens.

500, just trying to understand some people's mentality. I didn't say they shouldn't live there did I. You can stop your head banging chap.

11fan, again it's not a suggestion that these people shouldn't live there, or move away. By the way how many earthlings are killed every year by an asteroid?

Interestingly, on the news today, there were a few hardy residents of Moore who said they are moving away, I guess they're fed up with rebuilding their houses and burying their family every few months. Don't blame them really but why don't you ask them why they lived there in the first place.

mickjoebill
22nd May 2013, 09:11
Moore is just an example of how stats don't care about people.


"A recent tornado probability study, published by Weather Decision Technologies, predicted the odds of an E-F4 or stronger tornado hitting a house at one in 10,000.

That same study put the odds of that same house getting hit twice at one in 100 trillion."

Oklahoma Town Devastated by Tornado Razed Before in 1999 - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-town-devastated-tornado-razed-1999/story?id=19226754#.UZyK2ZXcGec)


Mickjoebill

Matari
22nd May 2013, 12:07
West Coast wrote:

Without doubt you'll post some pithy response to be a contrarian, it will simply speak either to an inability to grasp the vastness as the affected area represents roughly a third of a nation of almost 3 million sq miles (lower 48, over 3.5 million sq miles if you count all the states) or that you're simply a wind up.

...and Spandex responded as predicted.

BenThere
22nd May 2013, 13:06
Even if you took as a given that a devastating tornado like this one would strike Moore, Oklahoma every 12 years, I'm pretty sure you would be statistically safer living there than if you chose to live within the city limits of gun-controlled Chicago.

OK465
22nd May 2013, 13:31
The most dangerous place in Oklahoma City is the interstate at rush hour.....every day.

If the tag 'Tornado Alley' made folks shy away from moving here, it would be much more pleasant for those who do.

Unfortunately, it's not working....

Lonewolf_50
22nd May 2013, 13:53
Update on cousin's family in Moore:

Cousin's relations are OK, house was destroyed. :eek:

Spandex: they live there because that is where they work. Not sure I get what it is you are after. People live where they live and work, where their families are

About eleven years ago, a tornado hit a building at a community college in my wife's home town. She wasn't in class when the tornado hit, but she was doing some continuing education at the time.

CNN.com - Tornado kills one, injures six - Oct. 24, 2002 (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WEATHER/10/24/texas.tornado/)

On the strength of that, Spandex, are you going to suggest that people should not live in Corpus Christi? :confused:

If you go back to my earlier post, tornados that killed a lot hit also in Wisconsin and Michigan.

West Coast
22nd May 2013, 14:38
Matari

Perhaps predictability is a quality? I'm trying to find the best, struggling, but trying.

Spandex
Nothing like easing subtly away from an original stance when called on it.

Careful, your latent drama queen is emerging with your statement of burying and rebuilding every few months. I imagine it gave you a chuckle.

When the big earthquake hits California, I'll expect you Johnny on the spot telling me I was foolish to live here.

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd May 2013, 16:38
WC, look, I don't know why you find it hard to understand, save for intentionally to cause a fight, but at no time have I suggested people don't live in Tornado Alley, or indeed anywhere else and I haven't suggested they are foolish for doing so. Nor have I suggested they be forced out. I'm trying to understand the mentality of someone who puts themselves in harms way and repeatedly refuses to move out of the way. To me it would be waste of time, money and effort to keep rebuilding my house and buying new possessions and would find it much easier to not live where I have to do that.

Nice try but you can't put words into my mouth or suggest that I find the situation amusing. If you can't conduct a conversation in a grown up manner don't bother, I didn't ask you specifically.

Matari, you know what pithy means right? Concise and brief. So, yes I have attempted to clarify my question.

BenThere
22nd May 2013, 16:46
Everyone who builds a beach house along the sands of the southeastern US knows hurricanes will come and flatten wide areas. They play the odds, they insure for risk, and enjoy the time they have there.

In Oklahoma, everyone knows about tornados. The odds of being struck are low, insurance is reasonable, and Oklahoma today is one of the nation's bright economic stars (all counties voted Republican).

All things considered, weather and well-being, people are choosing Oklahoma and leaving Illinois, California, and New York. Wisely, I might add.

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd May 2013, 17:00
Ben, does insurance cover "acts of God"? I have a friend who's house has flooded several times in the last ten years, can he get house insurance for flooding? Apparently not.

I can't understand why he chooses to continue living there but he does, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to redecorate/rebuild whenever the whim of Mother Nature dictated.

BenThere
22nd May 2013, 17:24
You can insure against any risk. You might not like the price in some cases, but someone will take the bet.

OK465
22nd May 2013, 17:25
LSM,

I understand and don't have any problem with what you've said....

and as LW50 said, I would think the demographics are mostly economically driven (primarily Tinker AFB & FAA Aeronautical Center), certainly not the mountain or ocean views. Unfortunately, it is becoming a desirable place to relocate.

I've only been here 34 years...through tornadoes, wild fires, floods, one bombing and now even earthquakes :eek:...and I actually moved from beautiful Tucson, AZ (it's a dry heat) for the one and only chance I had to get to fly the F-105.

You actually don't need much to be happy. :}

(BTW, you can get insurance for anything, if you're willing to pay enough.)

I wouldn't want to redecorate...

I wish I could convince my wife of this. :)

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd May 2013, 17:48
OK, yes fair points. Is it fair to say that you made a choice to fly the Thud and had to move to Tinker? I assume you don't have to live there now so why did you stay? I'm genuinely curious and not poking you with a stick.

I wish I could convince my wife of this.

Good luck cracking that nut. :ok:

BenThere
22nd May 2013, 18:07
Fair question as to why anyone would ever choose to live in Oklahoma.

I lived there only during four years of college in the late 60's/early 70's. I really enjoyed my time there, the climate, compared to the upper Midwest where I was raised, was balmy and pleasant, tornados notwithstanding.

The older I get, the more appealing Oklahoma becomes. I'd move there in a minute, if only to hang out in Con-pilot's in house pub. My wife won't go along, of course, as she doesn't know Oklahoma.

What really makes Oklahoma, though, is the culture of proud Americanism you find there. The people are generally wholesome, generous, friendly, and grounded. These are qualities I can be happily surrounded by, not like the hustle I get here in Michigan.

In Oklahoma, for $200,000 or so you can buy a very nice house, on a beautiful lake, with 10 or so acres around you. If I could get the old lady on board, I'd do it.

West Coast
22nd May 2013, 18:17
There you have it spandex.

In the macro view, many outside of tornado alley both in the US and elsewhere should be very glad good folks want to live there. Otherwise they might not have much to eat as tornado alley and America's breadbasket pretty much share the same swath of land.

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd May 2013, 20:28
Ben, thanks:ok:

West Coast, you coulda just said that in the first place instead of going on the offensive.

Cacophonix
22nd May 2013, 20:51
fly the Thud and had to move to Tinker?

Interestingly, Tinker AFB was struck twice by two powerful tornadoes on separate days (those damned odds again) in 1948.

There was a five day gap between the two occurences and base meteorologists noted a marked similarity between weather conditions pertaining prior to the first tornado just prior to the second one and issued the first official and successful tornado forecast in the US.

AFB TINKER TORNADOES (http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/1520-0434%281999%29014%3C0492%3ATTATOM%3E2.0.CO%3B2)


Caco

Lonewolf_50
22nd May 2013, 21:17
... so why did you stay?
Very likely for the same reason my wife's parents stayed in Corpus Christi (they moved there in the early 1950's) even though Hurricane Celia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Celia)hit in 1970 and beat the livig shit out of that city. (My wife was 8 at the time).

It's Home.

Got it, yet?

galaxy flyer
22nd May 2013, 21:33
OK465

Were you a Hun IP at KTUS? I was in the last long course F-100 class.

GF

OK465
22nd May 2013, 21:41
GF,

Hun IP at TUS from 74 to mid 77, then in the first group to go to the A-7. Did my last F-100 long course in early 77 I think, but we ran both F-100 & A-7 courses concurrently for awhile after that. Also a wonderful life. :)

galaxy flyer
22nd May 2013, 21:52
Our class started in late May 77, graduation was just before Christmas. The late RK was our class leader, flew with Jack Marvin and Benny White a lot.

GF

West Coast
22nd May 2013, 23:35
Spandex

You sir are the one that went on the offensive, initial salvo without any knowledge of the situation beyond what your telly told you you deemed it "daft" to live there.
Seemed you arrived at your conclusion before you gathered enough information to reasonably have done so.

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 15:55
West Coast, you're clearly a bit too sensitive chap. That or you're spoiling for an argument. Anyway, my question was answered by an actual Oklahomarite.

Lonewolf, Wherever I lay my hat...!

West Coast
23rd May 2013, 16:16
Not sensitive, just curious how you arrived at the conclusion without information beyond the telly. That's the power the media has over the easily persuaded.

Lonewolf_50
23rd May 2013, 16:28
Lonewolf, Wherever I lay my hat...!
Until her husband comes home? :E:}:cool:

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 16:49
Come on WC you don't really think I got all of my meteorological knowledge from the box do you?

It's pretty easy to understand how much destructive force a tornado has. You think building a house in its way is sensible...or, a bit daft?

West Coast
23rd May 2013, 17:00
If anything is daft, it's you opening with a conclusive statement. It also struck me as odd your statement about building a house in the way as if all of tornado alley gets taken out on a regular basis.

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 17:22
Westy, in fact I opened with a question. Followed by my opinion.

I think now you're getting confused between statements and questions.

Like this,
You think building a house in its way is sensible...or, a bit daft?

That is a question, not a statement. You haven't answered it.

West Coast
23rd May 2013, 17:52
Ok, did you receive any feedback to arrive at the opinion, or was it simply an uninformed opinion?

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 18:20
Neither are required to form an opinion but I do have a certain level of knowledge of weather and climatology. Knowledge not necessary to discern the destructive force of a tornado because that is pretty obvious except maybe to you as you still haven't told us whether you think it's sensible to build there or not.

I'm not sure why you continue to argue over nothing, my initial question has been answered by a long time resident of Oklahoma, but I'm happy to keep responding.

Lonewolf_50
23rd May 2013, 18:25
You think building a house in its way is sensible...or, a bit
daft?
That's a load of bollocks, LSM. You don't set out to build a house in the way of a tornado. As noted before, tornado zone in the US covers multiple states, and most houses aren't hit by a tornado. The probability of your house getting hit is very small, but greater than zero, which is where insurance and warning come in.

Raise the game, eh?

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 18:37
It's only a question chief, chill. I can't believe how hostile the reaction has been to a simple question.

Lets look at it this way. You build a house in an area prone to tornados. If you don't consider that at some point in the future your house is going to get thwacked by a tornado then you'd be pretty stupid. Ergo, you're building a house fully expecting it to be destroyed, if you're not then why do you need insurance?

Sensible or a bit daft?

West Coast
23rd May 2013, 20:09
Yup spandex, you are entitled to develop an opinion by whatever means you choose. I'm free as well to label it as an uninformed one.

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 20:25
'cept you'd be wrong.

I note you still refuse to comment on the wisdom of building a house in a tornado prone area.

West Coast
23rd May 2013, 20:32
Sorry if I missed your question, yes I would. The odds are greatly in my favor.
I live in an area where others ignorant of the facts but schooled by the telly ask the same about the earthquakes and fires.

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 20:38
But would you be wise to do so expecting, at some point, your house and its contents, possibly you as well, to be battered into kindling? The facts being that an average of 100 tornados a month could land on your doorstep. Odds are great until they work against you.

West Coast
23rd May 2013, 21:06
I wouldn't have the expectation that my house would end up that way.

Yeah, odds (and statistics) are a bitch if your number gets called but they are a far more practical way of establishing risk than ignorance.

Do you really think that's the reality for the majority, the vast majority of those who live tornado alley?

Lord Spandex Masher
23rd May 2013, 21:55
Who knows, things like this are unpredictable. You'd have to expect something to happen merely because you can not discount it. That's why you'd have insurance right?

West Coast
23rd May 2013, 22:14
Depends.

I don't have earthquake insurance even though that's a possibility living in San Diego, too expensive. I did change out the roof when I moved in from a wood shingle to a more fire resistant one as I found that to be a risk greater than any other. Insurance companies aren't the only ones who assess risk.

brickhistory
23rd May 2013, 22:33
According to the logic being argued by one, there goes property values in Oxfordshire:

BBC News - Tornado reported during storm in Oxfordshire (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-17986143)

Tornadoes bring damage to UK during stormy weather - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/9229440/Tornadoes-bring-damage-to-UK-during-stormy-weather.html)

There are around 30 tornadoes a year in the UK with many more reports of funnel clouds.


We can discuss coastal housing later...

Lord Spandex Masher
24th May 2013, 08:22
Brick, do you understand the difference between an area with a disproportionately high frequency of tornados averaging 1200 per year with 5% greater than F3 ie., 50 odd violent tornados and a very rare pathetic tornado which "bounced a car about on its suspension"?

Again, I'm not arguing the logic I'm asking a question. Seems its quite difficult for you to answer.

WC, so would it be considered sensible for someone who can't afford tornado insurance to live in tornado alley, or a bit daft?

Cacophonix
24th May 2013, 08:36
Lord Spandex

Deadly tornadoes can and have occurred in many states outside the so called tornado alley. They also occur worldwide, for example places like Bangladesh have been hit by deadly tornadoes on multiple days and years as well and even Venice has been hit multiple times.

Do you suggest that the Venetians should abandon their beautiful city to the sea because of the irrational fear of tornadoes...?

It is all a risk versus benefit calculation and I am sure that the good folks of Moore will rebuild on the basis that it is better to live in Moore than elsewhere.

Fact - In the USA you are statistically more likely to be killed by lightning than you are by a tornado...

You could live in Bologna which combines earthquakes and tornadoes...

Huge tornado hits northern Italy | euronews, world news (http://www.euronews.com/2013/05/05/huge-tornado-hits-northern-italy/)

Caco

Lord Spandex Masher
24th May 2013, 08:58
Caco, I know that, in fact Antarctica is the only continent that hasn't seen a tornado. Generally F3 and above tornados don't occur outside of the US. The area most prone to tornados is Tornado Alley, 5% of which will be F3 or above so statistically you're more likely to get hit by a big one in that area.

My original question was about the wisdom of living in such a place and at no time have I suggested people don't live there. To me the risk, which is unpredictable, of having to rebuild my house whenever nature decided I couldn't have it anymore outweighs the benefit of living in such a place. That's my opinion. Some people didn't like it and got all shouty despite a resident of Oklahoma answering my question in a gentlemanly manner.

I hope Americans carry lightning insurance too;)

Cacophonix
24th May 2013, 09:52
Generally F3 and above tornados don't occur outside of the US. The area most prone to tornados is Tornado Alley, 5% of which will be F3 or above so statistically you're more likely to get hit by a big one in that area.

Certainly you have a much higher chance of encountering an EF3 or above in Oklahoma than you would say in Sweden (for example) but the odds of encountering an EF3 in Oklahoma are still pretty slim (unless you actively go out and look for them).

I take your point that you are not saying "don't live" and am interested in your questions about the insurance risks etc.

So interested in fact that I might just grind the numbers...

If you are interested in this stuff then read Charles Doswell's paper on this.

Violent Tornado Probability (http://www.flame.org/~cdoswell/tor_probs/vtornado_prob.html)

Caco

West Coast
24th May 2013, 12:09
Spandex

You should move out of the UK immediately due to the possibility that you might suffer the type of horrible attack that happened to that young soldier in London. No idea where in the UK you live, but the next set of loonies could own a vehicle. They could have access to mass transportation. They could simply live in your hometown. The area of tornado alley is in rough terms 10 times larger than the entire UK, so using the shit that could happen to me, sky is falling scale, you're clearly a goner. The 7/7 attacks killed twice as many as the tornado's in Oklahoma last week, clearly from a what could happen potential, your safety is at risk every minute you stay. As your trigger comes from what could potentially happen, and not statistically what the likely outcome is, you better move quickly overseas and then assess what could possibly happen there and then no matter how statistically improbable, you better move again. Safety is a bitch, ain't it?

Fear the probable, not the possible, which for a Midwesterner would likely mean a car accident.

Matari
24th May 2013, 12:36
The subtext of Spandex's silly posting is this: why would any civilized person want to live in a terrible, hickish backwater such as Oklahoma? Forget the tornados, his posts are really a poorly disguised insult to solid midwesterners, made by someone desperate to show how much more cosmopolitan he is.

Well, the answer is quite simple: people choose to live in Oklahoma because there are very few spandexois there.

Lord Spandex Masher
24th May 2013, 21:23
Matari, very good, if you say Oklahoma is a hickish backwater then so be it. You'd know, I've never been so I can't comment on what it's like. Don't think I've ever met a Midwesterner either, are they not cosmopolitan?

WC, if I lived in an area which is prone to dismantling my house, which I don't, then I'd know what kind of person chooses to live in that kind of area. I asked if it was wise to live there and that question was answered by OK465. I asked what kind of person would choose to live there and as OK465 answered in what I consider to a nice manner then I guess, from that small sample, that nice people live there. I didn't suggest he move somewhere else, I didn't call him a noncosmopolitan oik.

Caco, thanks for the link.

OK465
24th May 2013, 23:04
LSM,

I think there's just the standard bell curve when it comes to the quality of people in OK. However, it is comforting to imagine that possibly the sleaze-balls and serial killers in Oklahoma are actually drifters from Texas, Kansas or Missouri (or the UK? :eek:) just passing through.

As for backwater and hickish, my opinion is that it is not backwater and hickish enough anymore. It's losing a certain indefinable laid back quality these days.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've worn a tie to work in 34 years. Flight suits in the fighters and blue jeans in the 727.

I grew up in Santa Monica, California and now you couldn't pay me enough to live there. In line with what you're saying, all my old high school friends still living out there say, "You're crazy to live in Oklahoma". Not a problem. A generator and shelter do come in handy though.

On the plus side, we've got cold beer and hot women here too. :}

(I did recently just add earthquake insurance for $2 USD a month...all the natural gas fracking is causing a number of 3-4.0 jolts on the east side of town....the actual major fault line is in Missouri so it's not really our fault. :))

(edit: BTW if that thing the other day had turned north like May '99, on the short notice available it would have caught a bunch of aircraft out in the open at Tinker.)

Lord Spandex Masher
24th May 2013, 23:31
I spent a bit of time in Santa Monica about ten years ago. Had some nice grub in the restaurant on the pier (I think it was on the pier, maybe the dry end). I was a bit disappointed as the bits I saw appeared a bit run down and uncared for. I was living in Pasadena at the time which I thought was a bit nicer and had some decent dingy bars with live music.

Sounds like I'd like OK too, if they'd let in a cosmopolitan snob wearing lead boots and eyeing up those killer clouds with a worried look. ;)

BTW if that thing the other day had turned north like May '99, on the short notice available it would have caught a bunch of aircraft out in the open at Tinker.

That would've been almost as bad as spilling beer. How does the warning work? Does it just predict and extrapolate weather patterns.

hellsbrink
25th May 2013, 04:56
aka... We'll never let the b******s get us down, we're stronger than that.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/946998_541343849245192_815065053_n.jpg

Compare that to the hysteria that swept Britain when the equivalent of a spinning fart hit London in 2006.

Solid Rust Twotter
25th May 2013, 17:23
I like OK. There's a shortage of self righteous wittering Poms like LSM that appeals to me.

con-pilot
25th May 2013, 17:29
I've lived in Oklahoma City since we moved there from England in 1963.

I've never seen a tornado on the ground. Not once.

True that my mother's home was completely destroyed by the F-6 super tornado in May of 1999, but I was landing at the same time the tornado was demolishing my mother's home on the other side of the city.

The reason I still live in Oklahoma City is because that is where the work was.

Lord Spandex Masher
25th May 2013, 17:36
SRT, there nothing self righteous about asking a couple of questions. At least two Oklahoma residents didn't mind answering them.

Did the outrage bus just happen to be passing or are you hoping the Yanks will like you now you've shown you're on their side?

You can stick your faux indignation where the sun doesn't shine, next to your head.

Teldorserious
25th May 2013, 18:54
One has to wonder why we build stick built paper mache homes in the US where many of even the poorest of people are living in concrete homes all over the world.

Solid Rust Twotter
25th May 2013, 19:37
What faux indignation? Dull one trick ponies spring loaded to the anti US position are hardly anything exciting.

Dushan
25th May 2013, 21:34
One has to wonder why we build stick built paper mache homes in the US where many of even the poorest of people are living in concrete homes all over the world.

Cheap, easy, and fast to build. Who'd want to live in a 300 year old home built with brick and stone and being constantly soaked with rain. I wonder if you can get "rain insurance" in some parts of the world?

You want to run some electrical wire, no problem. Cut into drywall, run the wire, patch over and Dushan's your uncle. Try dong that in sophisticated Europe. Pneumatic hammer here I come...

Lord Spandex Masher
25th May 2013, 23:14
SRT, you're getting all offended on behalf of the Americans because I asked a couple of questions. Hardly anti US, which I'm not, having lived there briefly.

Try fishing in a river, you'll have more success. Bye now.

Cacophonix
3rd Jun 2013, 08:03
It is with a great deal of sadness that I read that well known storm chaser Tim Samaras (along with his son and another fellow chaser) was killed in the outbreak that occurred in Oklahoma last Friday.

If anybody doubts that chasing these storms can be dangerous then the death of an experienced man like Samaras underlines the risks involved.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClZBZQVRIM

Caco

mickjoebill
3rd Jun 2013, 09:40
Driving into a dangerous area in a vehicle without a roll cage and apparently any kind of PPE, ie a helmet, seems foolhardy arrogant and from now on, naive.

The images of storm chasers in shorts and sandals, driving one handed with a camera in the other, in factory standard SUVs tells the story of a cowboy culture.




Mickjoebill

Cacophonix
3rd Jun 2013, 09:48
mickjoebill

There are some cowboys out there but from reading his sensible and scientifically orientated papers, Samaras certainly wasn't one of those. I don't care to speculate on how his last trip went wrong but by all accounts he understood the dynamics of supercell storms and was a cautious man.

Caco

tony draper
3rd Jun 2013, 09:51
I was a tad puzzled at those Storm Chaser Documentaries as well, as to what exactly they got out of it, as a hobby it sounds a bit like Minefield Tap Dancing to me.
But then I am baffled by people who want to climb Everest as well.
:uhoh:

500N
3rd Jun 2013, 11:52
Caco

I enjoyed watching him on TV, I think he was the guy who came up
with the idea of the Orange discs placed on the ground ahead of
the Tornado which filmed from the centre for the first time (and
collected the first data ever).

But do tend to agree with some of the other comments, not
many safety protocols from what I have seen.

rgbrock1
3rd Jun 2013, 12:33
Tony D wrote:

as a hobby it sounds a bit like Minefield Tap Dancing to me.

I guess you were never an Infantryman, eh Tony?!!!!

OK465
3rd Jun 2013, 22:59
Just another day in paradise.....

I see from hellsbrink's photo that they never re-built the barber shop in Moore after the '99 twister. :}

con-pilot
3rd Jun 2013, 23:32
There are some cowboys out there but from reading his sensible and scientifically orientated papers, Samaras certainly wasn't one of those. I don't care to speculate on how his last trip went wrong but by all accounts he understood the dynamics of supercell storms and was a cautious man.


From what I have seen on the local news, Samaras was so cautious that he received a lot of good nature kidding about how cautious he was. All the professional storm chasers, those with advanced degrees in meteorology, are shocked by the manner of his death. To a person they claim the he would have been the last person in their field to die from being hit by a tornado.

Just like being a professional pilot, some endeavors are inherently dangerous.

11Fan
3rd Jun 2013, 23:40
To a person they claim the he would have been the last person in their field to die from being hit by a tornado.

And if he hadn't had been outstanding in his field, he might not have gotten hit.


Too soon?

Hat, coat, storm cellar door.

westhawk
3rd Jun 2013, 23:45
Samaras was the LAST one of the chasers profiled on the Discovery series that I thought would get it in a storm. He always appeared to be the most thoughtful and conscientious of the bunch. I would have put money on the IMAX guy trying to make a tornado movie to get it before any of them, armored vehicle or not!

CityofFlight
3rd Jun 2013, 23:56
Those storms can take erratic courses and I believe this is what happened, from all I've read. Sometimes, you just can't get out of the way fast enough.

That structurally reinforced car was twisted as if it was a tin can.

RIP, boys.

rgbrock1
4th Jun 2013, 11:55
Excuse me for seeming impertinent here but if someone makes a living out of "chasing" tornadoes, it should come as no surprise that one time a tornado might not appreciate being chased and will turn around and bite the chaser in the ass. it's not like he was employed as a meteorologist who sits in a broadcast booth during the evening news. I'm sure he was aware of the inherent risks in his profession. I shed no tears for the man. Unfortunate? Yes. But unexpected? No.

Cacophonix
4th Jun 2013, 12:13
Excuse me for seeming impertinent here but if someone makes a living out of "chasing" tornadoes, it should come as no surprise that one time a tornado might not appreciate being chased and will turn around and bite the chaser in the ass.

I think you are being a bit harsh RGB. There are chasers and there are chasers out there. Mr Samaras seems one of the least likely to have come unstuck in this unfortunate manner...

There have, in fact, been very few chasers hurt or injured by tornadoes over the years (in fact chasers are more likely to die in car crashes) and so it seems doubly unfortunate that a careful man like this guy should have been killed in this manner.

As for appreciating anything, I suspect that statistically tornadoes appreciate mobile homes the least.

A little paper by Charles Doswell on the "yahoos" out there who one might have thought as being more likely to have bitten the big one.

Chase Safety (http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~doswell/Chasing2.html)


Caco

rgbrock1
4th Jun 2013, 12:21
Caco:

I understand what you are saying. However, the deceased was not making a living giving haircuts in a barber's shop. He was actively engaged in the pursuit of one of the most destructive natural phenomena known to man. The risks of doing something like that are inherently there. I am not at all surprised that he paid for this pursuit with his life.

I liken it to that guy from Oz who went around chasing after crocodiles and similar creatures. Unfortunately for him a stingray one day decided it wasn't amused and stuck him in the chest. Again, it's another occupation with some very serious risks involved. It's unfortunate in both these cases that death was involved. But, for me anyway, it comes as absolutely no surprise.

Cacophonix
4th Jun 2013, 12:28
I liken it to that guy from Oz who went around chasing after crocodiles and similar creatures. Unfortunately for him a stingray one day decided it wasn't amused

I wasn't a great fan of the crocodile man and was surprised that he was killed in a freak stingray accident and not by a pissed off crocodile.

As Frank Zappa once sang... "I knew you'd be surprised". We all live on a knife edge of statistical ignominy and fate has a warped sense of humour methinks.

Caco

500N
4th Jun 2013, 12:28
Caco

I don't think RGB was being harsh.

I relate it to chasing / hunting Dangerous Game (Leopard, Lions, Buffalo, Elephant, Hippo), even the best and safest Professional's succumb to "accidents" occassionaly and get squashed, ripped or more often than not, killed.

It's the nature of the job, percentages come into play.


Edit
Steve Irwin is a good example even though he got it from an
unexpected animal, it was going to happen eventually.

BenThere
4th Jun 2013, 14:13
At the time of my T-37 solo, when I had a sum lifetime total of about 35 hours in airplanes, I reckoned I had maybe a 60% chance of surviving the day.

It wasn't courage that made me do it, but the fear of shame if I said I wasn't ready and asked for more time to be comfortable. God was merciful and I'm here to tell the tale.

In this respect I am as one with the storm chasers. They were doing what they chose to do, and they're responsible for the risk. Cheers to them.

As we approach the anniversary of D-day - now those were guys who can claim courage, and I'm forever indebted to them.

rgbrock1
4th Jun 2013, 14:23
BenThere:

Along the lines of your T-37 solo, I recall the fear and trepidation, as well as feelings of impending death, the first time I was hooked up to the jump towers at Ft. Benning, GA. Can you say: poo-poo in da pants? :}

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2632/4146818819_c14f1cfeda.jpg

Yes, the Greatest Generation. We owe them a depth of gratitude we'll never be able to sufficiently express in words but only in our hearts.

Yamagata ken
4th Jun 2013, 14:44
The dead Australian crocodile man's name is Steve Irwin. He made himself rich, famous and dead by confronting wild animals and invading their personal space. Adding spice to his self-glorification, he offered his baby daughter as bait to a crocodile. Most wild animals had better manners than him and let him go. One didn't and Irwin is dead. Irwin is a Greenpeace hero. He died for the cause of "raising awareness" (of himself). Tough titty.

Cacophonix
4th Jun 2013, 14:48
So you see RGB, if you had been enough of a lummox to jump off one of those towers and land on your head, I wouldn't have said "look at that nincompoop RGB, hurt himself while doing something dangerous". I would been more apt to have said "look at good old RGB, usually has such perfect technique and normally lands on his feet, I wonder what went wrong"?

Yours in a caring fashion ;)

Caco

500N
4th Jun 2013, 14:48
Agree.

All the while conveniently forgetting that he actually started off
as a hunter, shooting and hunting pigs and other animals.
He only became "green" because of his wife and the money.

Problem is, he has bred a couple of new one's so we are stuck
with the name for a while.

500N
4th Jun 2013, 14:50
"I would been more apt to have said "look at good old RGB, usually has such perfect technique and normally lands on his feet, I wonder what went wrong"?"

Come on, RGB was never that co-ordinated :O

Gomer Pyle was more his style !

rgbrock1
4th Jun 2013, 15:04
Caco:

The first time off one of those towers what makes you think I landed on my feet? I certainly did not.

(my ass still hurts from that jump to this day!!! :})

Besides, on that day I wasn't too concerned with technique. I was more concerned with calling for my Mama, invoking the names of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, and wondering how I was going to explain the f***ing piss stain on the front of my fatigues to my fellow trainees. (I wasn't the only one stained!)

11Fan
4th Jun 2013, 18:06
RG: "Hey Sarge, how long do I have until I need to pull my ripcord?"

Sarge: "The rest of your life son, the rest of your life."

S
h
i
i
i
i
i
t
t
t
t
t
t
t
t

QVK-H_VBRp4

rgbrock1
4th Jun 2013, 19:02
Thanks for the flashback, 11Fan. Much appreciated. (Glad I brought a change of trousers today though!!!!)

Not a very graceful jump in that video, was it?!!! :}:}:}

tony draper
4th Jun 2013, 19:15
Just out of curiosity,when was the parachute actually used in a war ie to land a main body of troops behind enemy lines as in WWII, I dont mean inserting small groups of special ops chaps tasked with some sneaky skullduggery.
:)

500N
4th Jun 2013, 19:22
What do you call "behind enemy lines" nowadays ?

The French dropped a force in Mali

Others I can think of off the top of my head include
Grenada
Panama
Iraq
Afghanistan

to name a few.

rgbrock1
4th Jun 2013, 19:29
Excluding special ops chaps, Tony D? :)

In 2003 during the invasion of Iraq the 3rd Brigade of the 101st Airborne jumped/assaulted on the outskirts of the then Saddam International Airport in order to take the airfield there.

It wasn't a division-sized assault but only a brigade of the screaming eagles.

In Grenada during Urgent Fury two battalions of US Army Rangers (the only true Infantrymen in Uncle Sam's Army!!!) descended upon Point Salines airfield to bring forth the fury of god himself upon the commies guarding that airfield. (Although we didn't really land behind enemy lines. More like WITHIN the enemy lines. :eek:) The US Army 82nd Airborne jumped much later onto the airfield environs only after we Rangers secured it. (Can you spell P-U-S-S-I-E-S?)

I'm sure there are other examples of air assault jumps being conducted by similar or larger-sized elements.

Solid Rust Twotter
4th Jun 2013, 19:38
Cassinga, Kolwezi.


Are the canopies tethered, RGB? Our mob used a 40' tower called the aapkas (monkey cage). Drills were practiced on four zipline type cables starting with an exit from a mock up door. The trick was to kick off and get a bit of an oscillation going so you could take a swing in passing with your jump boot at the head of the instructor standing on a mound in the centre, watching you with a beady eye.

Landing drills were practiced on the fan, a cable wound round a drum with vanes to slow your descent to a simulated parachute landing speed. Didn't work that well and landings were mostly arrivals in a whimpering heap.



http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/wikipedia/images/419706e23866679589f7261714cc48fa8f1375bf.jpghttp://i.ytimg.com/vi/M97tuzXJD9g/0.jpg

rgbrock1
4th Jun 2013, 19:47
SRT:

Tethered canopies/chutes? Nah. Your ass was hauled up by a steel cable to one of the four arms and then your ass was released. And you just hoped that your jump did not end up like the one depicted in 11Fan's youtube video!

It was much more fun doing it at night though. (Without Night Observation Devices of course.)

500N
4th Jun 2013, 19:51
rgb

What happened in that 11Fan video ?

He looked like he got tangled up and his body was horizontal
and he couldn't get vertical ?

Lonewolf_50
4th Jun 2013, 20:42
Tornado chasers don't just do it to make headlines, they do it to collect data that hopefully helps scientists figure out tornadoes better.

As to Samaras dying, a hazard of his profession, just as a main chute failure and or reserve failure (the double malfunction) is a hazard of leaping from the C-130 that went down the strip ...

Matari
4th Jun 2013, 20:53
In Grenada during Urgent Fury two battalions of US Army Rangers (the only true Infantrymen in Uncle Sam's Army!!!) descended upon Point Salines airfield to bring forth the fury of god himself upon the commies guarding that airfield. (Although we didn't really land behind enemy lines. More like WITHIN the enemy lines. ) The US Army 82nd Airborne jumped much later onto the airfield environs only after we Rangers secured it. (Can you spell P-U-S-S-I-E-S?)

Good thing the US Navy Seabees had already arrived well beforehand and built the bars and whorehouses for you Rangers to use once you got there!

con-pilot
4th Jun 2013, 21:17
Good thing the US Navy Seabees had already arrived well beforehand and built the bars and whorehouses for you Rangers to use once you got there!

Naw, what's tough is building a golf course and an O Club under enemy fire. :p


(One of my dad's old jokes)

OK465
4th Jun 2013, 23:12
Upgraded (??) to an EF5, the widest one on record....

....2.6 miles wide....brings a twinge thinking back about some old girlfriends (from the O'club & Guard bar). :}

(Dorothy would have over-flown OZ, wicked witch of the east would still be alive.)

West Coast
4th Jun 2013, 23:34
Matari

Hopefully the Seebees brought crayons and coloring books for the Rangers to play with while the Marines saved them, and the Seals to boot.

Cacophonix
4th Jun 2013, 23:35
Me, I got into tornadoes in Alberton SA when I was five, what with the dog howling, my mom crying and our neighbours roof flying I was hooked....

Caco

con-pilot
4th Jun 2013, 23:45
....2.6 miles wide....

Yes and it grew to that size in just a matter of seconds. That is probably how Samaras, his son and assistant was caught and killed by the F-5.

One of the tornado hunters video was on the news and he was trying to out run the same tornado, he had his vehicle, capable of over 100 mph, but due to the suction of the wind being sucked into the F-5 tornado, he could not get over 40 mph.

465

....2.6 miles wide....brings a twinge thinking back about some old girlfriends (from the O'club & Guard bar).

Now if Elaine read that, it would hurt her feelings. ;)

visibility3miles
5th Jun 2013, 01:55
Since this is a rumor forum...

I've heard that when near a tornado and a highway bridge overpass, it's good to hide in the snug area under the bridge up near where it meets the concrete embankment holding it up.

You'll be in a secluded area, with metal bridge sections giving you some protection from the wind. Hope I never need to try this experiment...

The results are tragic. Some of the videos show the head storm chaser go from mister macho tough guy to someone who realizes that this is not a game, and he is a mere speck of dust compared to the tornado.

West Coast
5th Jun 2013, 02:11
Tornado Overpass Information (http://www.crh.noaa.gov/ddc/?n=over)

Nothing I have any personal knowledge of, and hope to keep it that way but some disagree about the highway overpass idea.

rgbrock1
5th Jun 2013, 12:43
500N wrote:

rgb

What happened in that 11Fan video ?

He looked like he got tangled up and his body was horizontal
and he couldn't get vertical ?

What happened in the video? Um, the trainee basically f**ked up, that's what happened. First, if you look at him at the top of the tower right before "lift off" he came off the tower incorrectly. Leading to his not being able to deploy his chute correctly.

If you look at the video right before he takes a face plant, something falls out from his person. Dunno what it is though. Then he lands horizontally.

I'd surmise from the way the cadre raced to his side that the outcome of his attempted jump was not exactly what the trainee had in mind i.e., he was either badly hurt or killed.

We had something similar happen during jump school. Smart-ass and butthole of a jump instructor was "instructing" us on what not to do at the top of the tower. For whatever reason he came off the tower in a similar manner to the trainee in 11Fan's video.
Didn't deploy his chute in time, and wound up with a broken back. I guess that's what happens to buttholes.

rgbrock1
5th Jun 2013, 12:52
Matari wrote:

Good thing the US Navy Seabees had already arrived well beforehand and built the bars and whorehouses for you Rangers to use once you got there!

Navy Seabees? I'll assume you meant operators of the Naval Special Warfare Development Group aka, SEALs? (Teams 4 & 6 to be precise.) No, they didn't build much of anything for us. They were too busy recovering their mates who drowned during the commencement of action.

Matari
5th Jun 2013, 21:37
Not the Seals, rgbrock, the Seabees. The ones who build the airfields for you to land on:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/USN-Seabees-Insignia.svg/200px-USN-Seabees-Insignia.svg.png

500N
5th Jun 2013, 22:00
Matari

RGB and that ilk like to think they are the first "combat" troops
anywhere, so they ignore the Seebees :O

G-CPTN
5th Jun 2013, 22:44
Father-in-Law was a Phantom during WWII (they went in ahead of the main troops to report back on enemy positions). Also known as GHQ Reconnaissance Unit (http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/Unit-Info/4513), they frequently went in alongside the SAS, sometimes even ahead . . .

He never spoke about it and it was only discovered after his death (in his 60s) when his medals were found and traced.

004wercras
6th Jun 2013, 06:51
The Tornado that killed Samaras has been officially upgraded to an EF5 based on all the compiled evidence. And as mentioned, the width of it is a world record, largest ever recorded. Only 1/1000 tornados or so are rated EF5, with usually one EF5 recorded every 2 or so years. This year - 2 in 2 weeks.
Samaras was found still in his seatbelt, his son Paul and fellow chaser Carl were sucked out of the car, both of them found around a mile away from the car, and in different directions. The team had allegedly deployed their probes and it is still being debated whether Carl and Paul were still outside the vehicle and underestimated the inflow of were sucked out of the vehicle as thought. There is a report that a vehicle a mile away from the tornado was actually being sucked toward it by the inflow. Authorities are hoping to retrieve footage from taken live from the vehicle and/or probes to assess exactly what transpired. I imagine it is unlikely that we will get to see such footage if it exists, but hopefully somebody will be able to gain some lessons from it.

There has been a lot of talk about recklessness, but this tornado had several ingredients that made it particularly dangerous including being wrapped in rain, it grew very very quickly, faster than many seasoned experts could have predicted with all previous data and modelling, and nobody could have ever guessed it would be so large, a record breaker. As noted, other professional chasers also got hit and were lucky to survive, so I don't think these guys acted irresponsibly in that context. They got caught out by circumstances unpredictable and in a sense not encountered before.
It is a risky job, they all understood that, and they knew the risks. That is no different in a sense to many other risky lines of employment that becomes ones career.

Although these guys were in essence meteorologists I would class these events as similar to some aviation incidents - tombstone technology. These guys died, but hopefully something new or learned has or will come from this that will lead to new lessons learned, improved understanding and some form of meteorological advancement when it comes to understanding tornados.

R.I.P

Cacophonix
6th Jun 2013, 07:14
The El Reno tornado's track is clearly visible in scour marks on the ground from satellite photos...

It is reckoned that the doppler radar that measured the wind strength picked up F5 speeds in separate suction vortices that were spinning around the main vortex at around 180 miles an hour. The combined vector gave wind speeds of over 290 miles an hour in parts of the tornado.

It is interesting that given that most of the tornado's ferocity was spent over open country that if the EF rating scale (i.e. damage to structures) had been relied upon (i.e. there had been no doppler radio sounding) the tornado would not have been rated as more than an EF3.

http://www.theweatherspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/rapidupdates1.jpg

The width record trumps the Hallam Tornado as the widest on record...

2004 Hallam, Nebraska tornado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Hallam,_Nebraska_tornado)

The fact that these tornadoes can grow so wide so quickly points at phenomena in tornado genesis and growth that nobody really understands...

In these two cases above it looks like a fair proportion of the meso cyclone touched down...

Truly amazing.

Caco

004wercras
6th Jun 2013, 10:56
Caco, nice work mate. Interesting comment you make about the meso possibly touching the ground. My knowledge is sound but not advanced like the educated meteorologists specialising in tornados, but I have heard about meso's touching the ground, and read associated articles, but have never seen raw footage of it happening, even though it is well documented.
This is obviously a hypothetical thought, but perhaps the entire meso did touch the ground, hence the stronger than average inflow? Combine that event with the fact that you actually had the largest tornado on record and there could be the reason these guys were truly in the wrong place at the time?

4 more weeks of the worst of the season (or the best if you are a chaser) and then things should slowly ease off.

Another interesting bit of info, not really a match for this thread and worthy of its own thread, but is something the conspiracy theorists will love is the alleged HAARP activity at the time of both EF5's in the past few weeks. There are some interesting radar images doing the rounds. HAARP itself is not a conspiracy, it is very real, but whether it can manipulate weather is where the conspiracy lays.

004

rgbrock1
6th Jun 2013, 13:04
Matari wrote:

Not the Seals, rgbrock, the Seabees. The ones who build the airfields for you to land on:Um, the airfields at Point Salines, Grenada were built by Cubans, Grenadians and Russians. They were already there for the "taking"!!!!

Also, we didn't land on anything. We kind of sailed through the air, with the greatest of ease, ONTO the airfield. We were indeed supposed to land. But the aforementioned Cubans, Grenadians and Russians (as well as assorted Bulgarians and East Germans) weren't keen on our doing so. So they welcomed us with open "arms". (Rapidly firing arms at that.)

500N:

When, oh when, will you EVER learn that Rangers Lead The Way. Everyone else comes after. :ok::ok::ok:

West Coast
6th Jun 2013, 14:37
Yeah, to save you.

rgbrock1
6th Jun 2013, 14:44
Hey, West Coast?

http://www.multiplemayhemmamma.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/kid-sticking-out-his-tongue.jpg

lomapaseo
6th Jun 2013, 16:11
Oklahoma TV weatherman vilified for tornado advice - US news - Environment | NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52116284)

Reuters) - An award-winning Oklahoma television meteorologist has been criticized as "irresponsible" for telling viewers on Friday to get in their cars and flee approaching tornadoes, and some are blaming him for putting people in grave danger on clogged roads.
Mike Morgan, chief meteorologist for Oklahoma City television station KFOR, told viewers during a tornado warning to get in their cars and drive away from a threatened storm.
Some people said they followed his advice and ended up stuck in traffic jams on major central Oklahoma highways as a massive storm bore down on the Oklahoma City area.
The result was a "nightmare" on the roads, Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin said, exacerbated by some employers letting people off early from work to beat the rush hour on Friday.
Tornadoes and flooding from the Friday storms killed 20 people, the chief Oklahoma medical examiner's office said on Wednesday in its latest update of fatalities. Fallin said some people were sucked from their cars and some vehicles tossed from the roads.
It was the second wave of deadly tornadoes in the area in two weeks. A monster twister flattened whole sections of the Oklahoma City suburb of Moore on May 20. One Oklahoma tornado on Friday was the widest ever recorded in the United States at 2.6 miles, the National Weather Service said.
Morgan, an 11-time weather broadcast award winner in Oklahoma, where meteorologists are admired for timely forecasts about tornadoes, gave viewers the standard advice to seek cover in a storm cellar, shelter or other safe place below ground.

But some critics said Morgan then went too far when he told viewers: "If you can leave South Oklahoma City and go south do it now." He repeated similar advice several times.
Morgan was not the only local forecaster to give such advice as the storm front threatened to hit the major population center of Oklahoma City.
'IRRESPONSIBLE REPORTING'
Ernst Kiesling, research professor at Texas Tech's National Wind Institute, said it was wrong to advise people to get in their cars and try to outrun a tornado.
"Irresponsible reporting of that kind is unconscionable in my mind. You have the responsibility to give more than your off-the-cuff opinions."
Cassandra Donnelly of Oklahoma City was one of those people who headed south on the advice of newscasters and got stuck in traffic.
Donnelly said she saw cars driving the wrong way and through stop signs on one of city's major arteries. She eventually pulled off the road into the bushes.
"I told my mom and my sister to keep praying. The rain was horizontal," Donnelly said. "We were pushed forward twice."
Morgan has not appeared on the network since Friday, and the station said he is on vacation and would be back on Thursday. He could not be reached for comment.
But a statement from KFOR on Wednesday said: "After every major storm, we review our coverage and the many things that make each weather event unique, for the purpose of improving our coverage and our ability to forecast."
Greg Carbin, Meteorologist for the National Weather Service's Storm Prediction Center in Norman, Oklahoma, said a car is a more dangerous place to be than a well-constructed home in a tornado.
"You will more likely put yourself in more danger by leaving your house," he said.


Some people defended Morgan. David Barfield of Oklahoma City said he believes Morgan's advice two weeks ago during the monster tornado in Moore saved his daughter's life.
His daughter was in an above-ground closet but Barfield, following Morgan's advice to go underground, kept telephoning her to urge her to leave. She eventually did and survived.
"She would have died if she had stayed there," Barfield said.

con-pilot
6th Jun 2013, 18:17
I will have to admit that I was a bit surprised when Mike Morgan told people to leave their homes, if they did not have a tornado shelter or a safe room in their homes.

It has been drilled into the minds of people who live in severe tornado (F-3 and above) prone areas to never attempt to out run a tornado in a vehicle. In fact, if you are trapped out in the open in a vehicle, we have been told to leave that vehicle and go lie down in a ditch. No advice offered if you happened to be in an area that has no ditches. But the idea is, get out of your vehicle no matter what.

Well I've always questioned those rules myself. When it comes to an F-5 tornado, it will take the pavement off of roads, if a tree is hit by an F-5, the tree will have no bark left on it. So I've questioned the wisdom of lying in a ditch, when the tornado can peel the pavement off of a road.

Same with taking cover under an highway overpass. Ever hear of the venturi effect? Not too good of an idea to me to hide in a venturi when is a tornado with 200 or higher mph winds coming straight at you. Just my opinion of course.

In this case I believe that the problems were, when Morgan told people to 'get into their cars and leave, was;

One, the tornado was approaching the city, not out in the county. In country it is no problem escaping from the path of a oncoming tornado. Lots of roads, little traffic and great visibility due to the relative flat land. Just 90 degrees north or south of the direction that the tornado is traveling. Usually due south in this area works. However, most people in the country have storm shelters underground and they just go there and ride the storm out.

Two, the fact is about every vehicle built for driving on the roads and highways in the US can exceed the ground speed of a tornado by at least by a factor of three, unless of course you have the bad luck of owning one of those new electric cars, then you need to go lie down in a ditch as you're mostly screwed anyway. However, even if you are in a car capable of over 150 mph, that speed won't do much good it you are stuck in stalled bumper to bumper traffic.

Which brings us to the third problem. That is exactly what happened that afternoon, All the roads and highway heading south out of Oklahoma City were jammed. One reason for this was, when Morgan first told people to 'get the hell out of Dodge', the tornado, that would later be classified as a F-5, was headed directly at central Oklahoma City, with a population of over a million people, 80 percent of which have no storm shelters. In fact at one point I predicted that this tornado had a good chance of coming within a mile or two of our house, if it stayed on its present course. By the way, keep in mind that at one point that sucker was 2.6 miles wide. That will make the old Scotch low level light to come on.

Then this tornado made an unexpected hard right turn, usually they turn left (Gulp :uhoh:). This turn made it head for, you guessed it, Moore. So now not only do have literally tens of thousands of vehicles heading south from central Oklahoma City, being joined by thousands of vehicles heading south from south OKC and more fleeing from the Moore area. A Hollywood disaster movie could not have been scripted better.

At this point I'm sure Mike Morgan was reconsidering his advise to 'get the hell out of Dodge'. However, due to divine intervention or just plain old good luck, this savage tornado, quit. It lifted up off the ground and dissipated, hey, it happens. Then a few minutes later an F-0 tornado briefly dropped down for a few miles, but then it lifted as well just as it got to the Moore area. An F-0 tornado is so weak that folks here sit around and toss their beer cans into it.

So, my point is, I don't know. Well other than get a storm shelter, which my wife refuses to get into, tear your home apart and build a 'safe room', which is a solid cement walled and ceiling room in your home, which work and will survive an F-5 tornado. But then again, in some cases you can outrun a tornado by driving 90 degrees to its path.

Or, move to Ireland, as they don't get tornadoes, at least none above an F-0.

Anyway, Mike Morgan will keep his job and will still be here when all this happens again next year at this time.

500N
6th Jun 2013, 18:40
Con

"that speed won't do much good it you are stuck in stalled bumper to bumper traffic."

That is exactly what happened here as well when the fires hit.

They kept saying, make a decision, leave or stay. One hell of a lot decided
to leave are area of Melbourne, hills, small roads, often twisting.
A mate said it was total gridlock.

And another mate who survived Cyclone Tracy that wiped Darwin
off the map, he survived hiding under the stairs / solid brick wall
as did most others.

rgbrock1
6th Jun 2013, 19:01
I also have to question why a meteorologist decided to take it upon himself to issue a virtual evacuation order to folks when it really isn't his business to do so. That should have been left to the local government of the State to do, as is normally the case.

con-pilot
6th Jun 2013, 19:26
I also have to question why a meteorologist decided to take it upon himself to issue a virtual evacuation order to folks when it really isn't his business to do so. That should have been left to the local government of the State to do, as is normally the case.

Yep, have to agree with that. Our Governor, Mary Fallin, was not amused by Mike Morgan's actions and has said so. But such is the power of the media in the US today.

A few years ago, Morgan came under fire from other TV weather personalties and the National Sever Weather folks, the people that supposed to declare a tornado warning, for him declaring a tornado warning when none existed at the time.

I don't watch Morgan's TV station during bad weather because of him, I watch it because that station has the best weather radar. I can read a weather radar depiction very well.

500N
6th Jun 2013, 19:30
Con

" I watch it because that station has the best weather radar."

Do they have their own radar ?

In Aus, most of us go to the Bureau of Meteorology web site
that has a very good radar.


As to him issuing warnings, why don't they just threaten
to pull the TV license or go to his bosses. Having people
do that will one day cause a panic when not needed.

con-pilot
6th Jun 2013, 19:46
Do they have their own radar ?


Yes they do here. In fact the first weather radars that some of the local TV channels had, were aircraft weather radars mounted on a tower. Chanel 4, Morgan's station and the NBC affiliate, has two radar sites. One at the station and another one well north of the city, they are of the latest generation of Doppler radars with lighting detection and infrared sensing.

Also, the NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory is localed in Norman, Oklahoma and all the local TV stations can also receive live feeds from the NOAA weather radars.

So when it comes to radars, we are covered.

As to him issuing warnings, why don't they just threaten
to pull the TV license or go to his bosses. Having people
do that will one day cause a panic when not needed.

That will not happen, unless Morgan's ratings go down. As pulling a TV station license, it would be easier to impeach Obama.

Cacophonix
6th Jun 2013, 22:59
As pulling a TV station license

Keep those licenses going... even Fox's...

It is called freedom of speech. I admire America for that...

Caco

lomapaseo
7th Jun 2013, 03:28
Having been through one tornado a couple of miles away ... I got up the next morning and walked the golf courses taking pictures of the damage to all the homes, some totaled, most not.

I convinced myself that the next time I would don my MC helmet and cowered in the garage on my car's floorboards.

My wife intends to head for the walk-in shower in the BR.

We don't agree but vowed to look for the other's body after the storm..