Dornier 17 Recovery : Goodwin Sands

[CoffmanStarter]

For those interested ... just released on BBC iPlayer :ok:

BBC iPlayer Dornier 17 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/bigscreen/tv/episode/b020sj6g/Dornier_17_The_Fall_and_Rise_of_a_German_Bomber)

Some good underwater material ...

Best ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

Mind you ... I'd be more interested if they went up the coast a bit to Pegwell Bay to try and lift the Lanc ...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f6/RidingWithTheAngels/file%202/Top-20.jpg

You can just see the prop tips in this picture ...

Lancaster JB278 Information
Type Lancaster
Serial Number JB278
Squadron 103
X1D PM-L
Operation Karlsruhe
Date 1 24th April 1944
Date 2 25th April 1944


Further Information

"This aircraft was one of 550 Lancasters ordered from A.V.Roe (Chadderton) late in 1941 and delivered as Mk.111s from Jun43 to dec43 with Merlin 28 engines initially installed in early production, Merlin 28 or 38 engines in mid-production and merlin 38 engines only on late production.

JB278 was delivered to 103 Sqdn Sep43. JB278 took part in the following key Operations: Berlin 23/24Nov43; Berlin 26/27Nov43; Berlin 2/3Dec43; Berlin 16/17Dec43; Berlin 23/24Dec43; Karlsruhe 24/25Apr44-Lost onreturn When lost this aircraft had a total of 322 hours. JB278 was one of two 103 Sqdn Lancasters lost on this operation.

Very badly shot up in the vicinity of Karlsruhe by a couple of Ju.88s, one of which is claimed as destroyed by return from the Lancaster. With fuel leaking from damaged fuel tanks, the crew headed for Manston Airfield in kent, but were obliged to ditch before making landfall. On enetering the water, the Lancaster settled within less than a minute, but with alacrity everyone was able to evacuate the doomed bomber and all were subsequently rescued from their dinghy. F/S C.H.Ogden Sgt E.Thomason F/S O.J.Pratlett RCAF F/s G.C.Mitchell Sgt K.A.Brook Sgt H.R.Freckleton F/S E.R.H.Dyde "

Coff.

[Whenurhappy]

B*gger - I live outside the UK so can't see Iplayer stuff.

[CoffmanStarter]

Get a VPN link :ok:

[Wensleydale]

It seems that the lift failed last night (too windy), and the project team are going to reassess their chances of recovery of the aircraft.

[Tashengurt]

Nature hasn't been kind to the team.
The latest method seems incredibly risky but probably worth it since the alternative is losing the airframe for certain.
I hope they prevail.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[strake]

Whenurhappy,
As Coffman says, VPN is the way to go..then you can be online "anywhere in the world" you want to be..

Feel free to pm for details if you need to.

[Canadian Break]

Trying to PM you re VPN but aparently you have elected not to receive PMs. CB

[strake]

How strange....I can assure you I am "enabled" according to my preferences.

Maybe it's because I'm on a VPN :O

The only reason I suggest pm is that I believe it's considered bad form to post commercial links.

[Canadian Break]

Strake - could you pm me the details? Off to work in Europe soon (hopefully) and would like to get the Ashes Test Matches on the laptop! CB :ok:

[strake]

Message sent...

I've also realised why you couldn't pm. Very technical but now sorted.

[Pontius Navigator]

I wonder just how many aircraft have been recovered through the various aircraft recovery groups. I know there is a Lincolnshire group and you can see some of their efforts at East Kirkby.

My uncle disappeared over the North Foreland in a Beaufighter on a night when there was no enemy action. There were no messages so my own guess would be disorientation and hitting the sea but really no idea.

[effortless]

Does anyone know if any of the crew survived?

[ExAscoteer]

2 were killed, 2 were taken PoW.

[Al R]

In the event of a quick lift in bad weather before the dosh runs out, the revised lift plan looks dodgy. If bracing it internally is such a good idea, why not do that in the first place? I am amazed that there is no money available for this; not even enough to allow for a hold until decent weather arrives.

[BEagle]

Although this is an RAFM project, I wonder whether there's anything the Dornier Museum in Friedrichshafen could usefully contribute to the work?

[Trumpet_trousers]

I wonder whether there's anything the Dornier Museum in Friedrichshafen could usefully contribute to the work?

Maybe place a large, Dornier-sized towel on the beach in anticipation of its arrival? :E (btw Beags, are you going to 'ze Salon?')

[BEagle]

Yes, that would work, TT!

No I won't be at 'Le salon'.... Trop de grenouilles in any case!

How many aircraft are you taking this time? I guess it won't be long before the FAF receive the first production version.....

[NutLoose]

They have raised another £100,000 now all the need to raise is the aircraft.

BBC News - WWII bomber salvage attempt bolstered by donations (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22791545)

[CoffmanStarter]

Breaking News here on local BBC Regional TV News ... Looks like the lift has been successful ... The pictures just shown appear to indicate that a good percentage of the wings are still intact and remain attached to the fuselage.

Will try and grab some pics if I can ...

Coff.

[Wander00]

That's good if all works out OK

[500N]

A good photo here

BBC News - WWII Dornier bomber raised from English Channel (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22846645)

[CoffmanStarter]

Apparently the undercarriage tyres are still inflated ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps4c77b696.jpg

[Wander00]

That's pretty good - will they be able to raise the rest? Good luck to the team

[Lima Juliet]

A lot of effort and money to raise a twisted and corroded lump of metal IMHO. That specialist cradle doesn't seem to have done much. It will be made to look like a real aircraft like the Loch Ness Wellington in Brooklands Museum - but you can't help think it would cheaper and easier to start from scratch!

[CoffmanStarter]

Fair point Leon ... I understand that despite the discolouration the actual alloy is in reasonably good shape (no copper in the mix) ... for sure it won't be flying again :eek:

[Lima Juliet]

Coff

Arguably the Welliwog was in better condition! :ok:

http://www.forestry-memories.org.uk/pictures/105.jpg

So it'll be interesting to see what they do with this Flying Pencil :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

On a lighter note ... I think the Goodwin Sands Cricket Club might need to call for the heavy roller once the recovery is complete :ok:

http://www.daddypapersurfer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/PA4_160326.jpg

Yes we are mad down here in the South East :cool:

[pontifex]

I fear there may be a fair amount of flack for what is to follow.

Firstly, I believe that wrecks such as the Dornier should be left where they are which is where two military combatants lost their lives. Naval wrecks have the status of war graves and I feel very strongly that aircraft lost at sea should be similarly honoured.

Secondly, what is to be gained apart from the satisfaction of a difficult job brought to fruition successfully. Actually not that successfully as footage of the fuselage breaking in two as it was being lifted showed. So the remains will end up in a museum somewhere for future generations to see what it may have looked like. To what end? Blueprints must still exist (indeed we or the yanks probably captured some) so a static only model could be made accurately to achieve the same purpose only more effectively and probably more cheaply.

So what about the Mary Rose? In this case there was much to be learned about facts otherwise unobtainable from a wreck which, in its time, was the most significant vessel in the nation and for which there were no records. I have no problem with this but the Dornier makes me feel very uneasy. Those of you know me will know that I don't dislike vintage aircraft, quite the opposite. Is is probably because of this that I feel as I do about the Dornier. Sorry to the majority on this thread.

[Al R]

Your first thought crossed my mind last night too, but the bodies were recovered at the time I think. Imagine if there were no Spitfires left; imagine how finding one would bring to life again, the time, the occasion and the design? I'm sure one could be recreated, but you couldn't recreate the events with a pristine example - doesn't this one have fire damage? It connects with the past, the fact it is shattered compels us to think.

[CoffmanStarter]

Pontifex ...

I too share your concern and respect for aircrew that have lost their lives and remain berried with their aircraft. This particular site wasn't a War Grave ... here is a quote from the RAFM Project Web Site ...

The Ministry of Defence is responsible for the investigation of all military aircraft crash sites in the United Kingdom (including those situated in UK territorial waters) and has only issued a licence for recovery of the Dornier because it is NOT a war grave. The aircraft's crew of four are all accounted for and no human remains are present in the aircraft.

Best regards ...

Coff.

[Onceapilot]

The Loch Ness Wellington was virtually complete when found. However, the recovery was botched when it was dragged along the bottom and, lower parts and the tail were ripped off.
Many water recoverys seem to suffer this sort of fate.

OAP

[Arclite01]

It looks like scrap metal to me.

I know what it is. I know what it represents. I'm in favour of recovery where the end product is worthwhile (such as some of the recent Russian finds)

I just don't think in this case that the end justifies the means or the money............. it doesn't detract from the civil engineering aspects which are an amazing bit of work in challenging conditions.

Sorry if this doesn't fit with other peoples views - just my 2 pennyworth

Arc

[Tankertrashnav]

Elsewhere there is a thread on the problems in raising money to keep Vulcan 558 flying. One member said that money which goes to that project means less money elsewhere. The Dornier raising project has had a grant of £345,000 from the National Heritage Memorial Fund which by definition means that that is £345K which cant go on other projects.

Personally I wouldnt pay tuppence to go and look at what may or may not end up looking something like a Dornier, but which I will know is in effect a replica built round a pile of scrap metal, but I acknowledge that others will, and I respect their choice. Anyway, that all said the guys have obviously done a very good job in getting the aircraft up, so well done for that.

Now can you see if you can find a couple of Olympus engines lying around anywhere? ;)

[Wander00]

Seems 2 threads on the same topic, one here and one on AH&N. Oh, well.

The only justification in my mind for spending £350K odd on this recovery is that it is apparently the only Do17 in the world, which I find surprising as there were a lot built and ISTR that at least one was captured and flown by the allies during and after the war.

[John Farley]

I do not wish to disparage pontifex and his post 29. Not in the least.

However I have a different view. If I finished up at the bottom of the sea in my aeroplane and somebody came along and removed my remains and tried to raise my wreck.

1 I would know nothing about it.

2 If I did I would be really chuffed that somebody went to that trouble and showed such respect for my aeroplane - and by association, me.

[Al R]

John

Extending your thoughts, the very visible signs of fire damage on the wing (I think) are a stark reminder about the sacrifice and deaths of those men and their final living moments in time. We talk about never forgetting, I hope the Dornier will do more than make people lollygaggle.

[CoffmanStarter]

A close up just released by the MOD ...

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/12212/Dornier2.jpg

An upside-down view of the Dornier's interior, looking forward from just aft of the trailing edge of the wing, with oxygen bottles on the right

Picture Credit: Iain Duncan, Trustees of the RAF Museum

[Load Toad]

It's OK - that'll buff out.

[CoffmanStarter]

Daily Mail On-Line also have some good pics ...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/11/article-2339428-1A4127BD000005DC-790_964x622.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/11/article-2339428-1A413066000005DC-135_964x465.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/11/article-2339428-1A412C87000005DC-322_964x644.jpg

Daily Mail Dornier 17 Recovery (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339428/Last-flight-Flying-Pencil-How-Dornier-bomber-recovered-sea-bed-Kent-coast-shot-Battle-Britain-forcing-crew-land-belly-sandbanks.html)

[glad rag]

I didn't realise they were so, well small.

[Tankertrashnav]

I didn't realise they were so, well small.

I had the great good luck to have a look inside the BBMF Lanc when a certain contributor to this thread bought it to Wyton for a display back in the late 80s. Was amazed what a squeeze even they were to get around, even without Irvine Jacket, Mae West, parachute harness etc. The Dornier must have been even snugger!

Re the pics "So apart from those snags, chief, she's ready to go?"

[CoffmanStarter]

Four crew squeezed into an airframe not much bigger than a Pucara ...

TTN ... the same contributor will relate I'm sure to the comparison above :ok:

[Wensleydale]

Re the pics "So apart from those snags, chief, she's ready to go?"


Give Ed China a month or two.......

[Onceapilot]

I wonder if they will announce that it should be kept in this condition "as a time capsule" in the same way as the only, and far more worthy, Halifax?

OAP

[GreenKnight121]

Onceapilot seems to be the only one with a clue.

All the rest moaning about how much it will cost to restore this wreck, and how that money could go to more worthy projects need to pay attention to what the RAFM has said from the start.

The RAFM has repeatedly stated, including in a brief given at the Smithsonian Mutual Concerns of Air and Space Museums conference earlier this year, that their plans are to:
1. Raise the aircraft. (mostly done)
2. Clean the airframe and stop further corrosion.
3. Stabilize the physical structure.
4. Conserve it in "AS FOUND condition".
5. Display it in the entrance to the RAF Museum in "AS FOUND condition".


Note the complete lack of restoration, rebuilding, and all the other fanciful ideas being tossed around here.

[Lima Juliet]

GreenKnight

"AS FOUND"

We obviously have money to burn in the Heritage Lottery Fund then...:(

I cannot imagine what that amount of money could have done for a smaller museum than the RAFM, but I'm sure it would involve more than a rusty wreck!

LJ

[cargosales]

GreenKnight

"AS FOUND"

We obviously have money to burn in the Heritage Lottery Fund then...:(

I cannot imagine what that amount of money could have done for a smaller museum than the RAFM, but I'm sure it would involve more than a rusty wreck!

LJ

Certainly that amount would go a long way towards yet another Harvard or whatever getting on public display in a smaller museum somewhere..

However, this is the only remaining example of the type in the world! Surely that is more important than 'more of the same' elsewhere, whether it's a rusty wreck or not?

CS

[Octane]

That it took more than 300000 pounds to raise the wreck from 50 feet is well, astonishing...
Where on earth did the money go?

[500N]

Machinery hire would be a fair chunk looking at some of the photos.

[Chugalug2]

I assume that "as found" means as found in 2008, not as dredged up in 2013. If the preservation and restoration process goes as planned then in 50 years time visitors to the RAFM will be able to see the remains of this one unique survivor and, if nothing else, be able to say,
"I didn't realise they were so, well small."
By that time the treat that those of us around now experience will have long since expired, and the Vulcan to the Skies will have returned to Earth to stay there. I know which investment I think will have provided the longer term value for money.

[Wensleydale]

Where on earth did the money go?


Probably in project managers, risk assessment staff, and health & safety surveys. (With a healthy insurance premium to pay just in case someone cut a finger on the sharp edges of the wreck).

[Octane]

Why could not the RN have been approached and asked if they could do the job as a training mission? I'm assuming the RN has a vessel with a crane capable of lifting a 10 ton load and navy divers able to operate at 50 feet? The aircraft was never intended to be restored and is in awful condition anyway so if it was inadvertantly damaged whilst retrieving it, so what? The important point was it's retreival, spending 300000 pounds to do it however, in my mind is simply outrageous and unjustified. Is the same madness going to prevail in the salvage of the P-38 sitting in the sand somewhere on the west coast? I hope not...

[Ken Scott]

Has anyone asked the Germans if they want it back? It is after all theirs, though we could claim salvage rights!

[Wensleydale]

Why could not the RN have been approached and asked if they could do the job
as a training mission?


The wreckage of ex-Waddington Lancaster PD259 was recovered from the Highlands of Scotland to Waddington's Heritage Centre under "Leadership Training" a few years ago. The expedition was organised and carried out by several JNCOs, and the wreckage transported from the mountains to the road by a helicopter crew from Shawbury undergoing basic under-slung load training.

Some of the wreckage will be moved into Hanger 3 for display at the Waddington Air Show next month.

[NutLoose]

I wonder if they will announce that it should be kept in this condition "as a time capsule" in the same way as the only, and far more worthy, Halifax?

OAP


OnceaPilot,

There are 3 Halifaxes in existance,

One sitting at Hendon and I think displayed in a fitting and dramatic way, shame they have the restored turret next to it though, it looks out of place.

One at Elvington that is a partial rebuild / come composite, utilising the centre section and wings of a Hastings that was the same, a genuine back end and a rebuilt/ new nose.... if memory serves me correctly, see

Halifax 'Friday the 13th' at Elvington (http://www.bomber-command.info/f13elvington.htm)

Halifax bomber interior views | What it?s like to be inside a World War Two Halifax bomber (http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/halifax-360vr-tours)

Rise of the last Halifax bomber (From York Press) (http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/leisure/books/8305211.Rise_of_the_last_Halifax_bomber/)

One more in Canada that also came out of a Norwegian fiord and has been rebuilt at Trenton

World’s only restored WWII Halifax... | Air Force Articles | News and Events - Air Force News | RCAF | DND/CF (http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=1463)

Handley Page Halifax NA337 - National Air Force Museum - Trenton ON - Static Aircraft Displays on Waymarking.com (http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMEHAW_Handley_Page_Halifax_NA337_National_Air_Force_Museum_ Trenton_ON)

Additionally there is another in the wings, again utilizing parts from the Hastings that were recovered from a scrapyard in Malta

http://www.aircrew.org.uk/News/Halifax_Progress46.pdf

This also contains images of the Trenton rebuild along with the one above

Fishing For Halibags - Retrieving a Halifax Bomber from the Irish Sea > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/76/language/en-CA/Fishing-For-Halibags--Retrieving-a-Halifax-Bomber-from-the-Irish-Sea.aspx)


:)

[langleybaston]

raising that wreck after going to so much trouble to cause it to crash is a very good example of langleybaston's maxim:

"just because you can do something is never a good enough reason for doing it".

Total waste of money and effort for a crock of sh*t.

[Davef68]

Octane,

Off the top of my head the only RN ship that 'might' have that capability would be RFA Diligence, and if I recall correctly she is somewhere warmer than Kent at present on operational taskings. If the Navy needs lift capability like that, it charters it in the same way.

[Red Line Entry]

Ken,

I don't believe it is the Germans' property as we could legally claim it as 'war booty'.

[FODPlod]

Here's chapter and verse about ownership: CRASHED MILITARY AIRCRAFT OF HISTORICAL INTEREST (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/28264/POMRACTBOOKLET_Jun11.pdf)

LICENSING OF EXCAVATIONS IN THE UK - NOTES FOR GUIDANCE OF RECOVERY GROUPS

Protection of Military Remains Act 1986

1. The remains of all aircraft which crashed whilst in military service, whether on land or at sea, are protected to the extent laid down by the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. It is an offence under this Act to tamper with, damage, move or unearth any remains which come within the scope of the Act unless the Secretary of State has issued a Licence authorising such things to be done, and they are done in accordance with the conditions of the Licence. Aircraft remains which come within the Act include: a. The remains of aircraft which have been in the military service of any country and which lie in UK territorial waters; and b. The remains of all aircraft which have been in UK military service lying in international waters.
Ownership of Aircraft and Equipment

2. Crashed UK military aircraft and their equipment remain the property of the Crown until such time as the Ministry of Defence decides to dispose of them. All crashed enemy aircraft and their equipment, lying within the United Kingdom, are regarded as captured enemy property which has been surrendered to the Crown. Crashed United States military aircraft and their equipment remain the property of the United States Government, but the Ministry of Defence acts on behalf of the US authorities. Applications to recover American aircraft should therefore be made to Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (SO3 Historic Casualty Casework) in the normal way described below...

[Onceapilot]

Thanks NutLoose. Yet, the RAFM Halifax is still more worthy IMO. The Canadians have done a fine job with NA337. Can someone explain why there is such a negative view on restoring W1048?

OAP

[BEagle]

Total waste of money and effort for a crock of sh*t.

Utter bolleaux - stick to your beetles, seaweed, fir cones and other tools of the unreliable weather-guessing trade!

This is a very rare aircraft which was skilfully ditched by a former enemy during combat operations. 2 aircrew members survived, 2 did not. I hope that efforts will be made to find out whether the survivors or their descendants are still alive and if so, to reunite them with the aircraft.

[langleybaston]

This is a very rare aircraft

I'll say!

Not exactly improved with age either.

[NutLoose]

Onceapilot

Thanks NutLoose. Yet, the RAFM Halifax is still more worthy IMO. The Canadians have done a fine job with NA337. Can someone explain why there is such a negative view on restoring W1048?

OAP


At the time I think it was cost, they started it and got the turret done, they then had a change of policy and decided due to rebuild costs not to do it. I wouldn't quote me on that, but it rings a bell.


raising that wreck after going to so much trouble to cause it to crash is a very good example of langleybaston's maxim:

"just because you can do something is never a good enough reason for doing it".

Total waste of money and effort for a crock of sh*t.


Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The XH558 Vulcan has had an exorbitant amount of money poured into her to keep her flying, there is then plans to pour more into her when she is finally grounded, but then all of these people involved in her both flying and when retired do not seem to realise once grounded, she is just one of many Vulcans in preservation and the publics appetite to throw money her way will soon dry up.
You say it's a lot of money to drag her out of the sea, the last ( known ) Dornier, true, but...... How will history look on those of us who had the opportunity to rescue a major piece of history and let it pass by without a second thought.
So many others have slipped through the net, the Stirling, the then sole surviving Halifax that was at Radlett and was scrapped, the list goes on, so are we to simply to let the last known example deteriorate to the point of no return and fail our future generations in preserving history, history that shaped the world and deny those in the future a chance to learn from our mistakes and achievements, if that is the case then perhaps we should use the Mary Rose and the Victory for kindling, and recycle the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence and the MonaLisa into toilet paper.
One only has one chance at these things, ignore them at your peril, for once they are gone they are gone...


..

[Onceapilot]

NutLoose, I am sure it is cost, as far as the RAFM management can see! I feel that we have to remember that some involved are professional museum managers and, they are not "upholders of the faith" as we might imagine the management of the RAFM should be.

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

As a young nipper in the 70s visiting the RAFM, I was always dissapointed with this Gladiator wreck...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5223/5605071367_a2ce6f62e0.jpg

...coupled to the Halifax wreck and now this Dornier, all that's missing is a scrapyard Alsatian to complete the look! Displaying wrecked aircraft in a museum is comparable to the 'Emporer's New Clothes' that some people call modern 'art' these days!

Utter garbage in my opinion...

LJ

[NutLoose]

But Leon you are missing my point, they have been rescued, stabilised and housed in a safe environment, the opportunity is there in the future to rebuild the Halifax.... Gladiator..... Dornier.... BUT not to rescue them when you can means you simply have let that opportunity pass you by.

[500N]

OAP

I looked up W1048 on the net and they described the planned
restoration but once they got into it, they found the corrosion
too great and decided to stabilize it.

[Octane]

I appreciate the rarity of this aircraft but also believe that if someone had the time and inclination to study combat reports, talk to eyewitnesses and ex pilots etc it would be possible to locate dozens of ditched Do-17's whether they be in UK waters, off the coast of France, the Med or Norway etc. Quite possibly there are wrecks out there in much better condition waiting to be discovered. The Do-17 is rare because no one has gone looking for them perhaps. Maybe there are some buried in crates somewhere:}

[Load Toad]

Well nobody was learnin 'nowt with 'em sitting getting slowly more eroded underwater were they? A few more years and there wouldn't have been anything too salvage in any state with the option of refurbishing / rebuilding / copying or whatever.

[Lima Juliet]

I don't buy the "let's dig them up and preserve them for later" argument either. In the case of the RAF Museum, they have had the Gladiator since the ealry 70s and done nothing with it (probably because there are examples of complete aircraft around) and also the Halifax has not been touched for a similar period (as already stated there is 1 complete in Canada and the 'bitza' at Elvington). I suspect the Do 17 'flying pencil' will still be sitting as a pile of junk in years to come, when for similar money for it's recovery a replica made from Dornier's original plans could have been made for static viewing.

LJ

[Tiger_mate]

The RAFM are hostile to reproduction aircraft as overheard concerning the burden of the former Boulton Paul collection which they took on as baggage that went with BP blueprints that are perceived as valuable.

The DO17 is more artifact then aeroplane and the debate as the whether to repai, restore, or rebuild is one that can never be resolved to the satisfaction of everybody.. In short, a lose-lose albeit with good intent.

FWIW, I think that the Beetham Centre is a fantastic asset and I am sure the metalwork will be reviewed and an apropriate decision made as to its future. I just hope that they do not display it upside down as I have heard they propose to.

[Onceapilot]

Well, several of the RAFM exhibits are virtually new build. The Hampden rebuild is a largely new build and, that project has been funded. The RAFM lacks direction and a sense of proportion. Aircraft are largely scattered about. Why is there not a declared aim and plan to display the RAF historic aircraft in a correct progression through history? So where is the plan for the restoration of W1048, where is the project for a Whitley rebuild and, where is the vision of a Museum of the RAF?

OAP

[Chugalug2]

OAP:-
where is the vision of a Museum of the RAF?
A very profound question, to which one might well answer,"certainly not at Hendon". A museum of the RAF would encompass far more than aircraft displays, be they restored, replicated, as found, or "as seen tried and tested".

The apogee of RAF effort and effectiveness was in WW2, when its presence, its personnel, and its activities, spanned the globe. This country alone was strewn with a phenomenal amount of infrastructure; camps, stations, radar arrays, bunkers, requisitioned buildings in town and country, all labelled Royal Air Force something or other.

One example alone that would have captured so much of the above, particularly of the long journey from attestation to operations, was RAF Bicester. A grassed airfield with a technical site whose buildings dated from almost the beginnings of the RAF to that of the immediate pre-war, it is accessible in almost equal proportions from North, South, East, and West, being served with good rail and road connections. Almost uniquely it could have told the story of Bomber Command from the early days when the ADGB meant that "the Bomber will always get through", to the more realistic ones of Harris's "Old Lags". It was here that many of his crews chose one another, to live or to die together, as it was an OTU Station.

The vision of Bomber Command Heritage was much closer to what I would think of as a Museum of the RAF, rather than that of the RAF Museum. The money wasn't there to salvage Bicester though, as it was for the Do17. It is now going to be an "Enterprise Park"... don't ask!

[CoffmanStarter]

On a lighter note ... why not turn over these wrecks to the chaps at Battle Damage Repair Flight and see what they can do :}

Do we still have BDR Flights :confused:

[Haraka]

I find it ironic to recall that the last surviving intact member of the Do 17/15 family ( a 217 IIRC) was scrapped by the RAF in the 50's ,I believe at Henlow, in order to free up hangar space.

[Wensleydale]

I find it ironic to recall that the last surviving intact member of the Do
17/15 family ( a 217 IIRC) was scrapped by the RAF in the 50's ,I believe at
Henlow, in order to free up hangar space.


Obviously done by a Pencil Pusher?

[NutLoose]

Where is the project for a Whitley rebuild and, where is the vision of a Museum of the RAF?

OAP


Elliott's your'e man Onceapilot

Whitley_project : A project to rebuild the Whitley bomber (http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Whitley_project/)

:)

[Onceapilot]

Thankyou NutLoose, and I agree, tremendous work goes on with private groups around the world. However, the RAFM should surely have set out to display as many as possible historic RAF aircraft in chronological and educational displays?
Should the RAFM use more of its gifted assets to achieve the aim of displaying a greater number of historic RAF aircraft?

OAP

[Onceapilot]

As an aside, has the RAFM realised that next year is the 100th anniversary of the start of the Great War? A war that saw the germination of air power and , the birth of the RAF.
Possibly they will see fit to move all the representative aircraft together into one display with a suitable chronology and accompanied by a depth of artifacts that pay due respect to the war to end all wars?

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

The RAFM are hostile to reproduction aircraft

I believe the Sopwith Camel is a replica, as are the the RE8, the Albatross DVa and the Hurricane/Spitfires on sticks outside. They don't seem that hostile to me!!! :ok:

LJ

[NutLoose]

They do insist the ones in the museum have flown i believe and didn't they contain some original items?. The Albatross for example sports an original engine the RAFM provided.

Thankyou NutLoose, and I agree, tremendous work goes on with private groups around the world. However, the RAFM should surely have set out to display as many as possible historic RAF aircraft in chronological and educational displays?
Should the RAFM use more of its gifted assets to achieve the aim of displaying a greater number of historic RAF aircraft?

I'm just happy someone of late has found the light switches, it used to look like a scene out of the walking dead as people groped around in the dark trying to locate the exhibits.

[AR1]

Somewhere, someone from the MOD saw the film and thought ' This has got at least a thousand hours fatigue life remaining'!

[November4]

Nice touch

The Museum pays its respects (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/the-museum-pays-its-respects/)

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/blog/cannock_chase_cemetery.jpg

Yesterday as we started the process of raising the Dornier 17 Alex Medhurst, General Manager of the Royal Air Force Museum Cosford, paid his respects at Cannock Chase cemetery on behalf of the Trustees, Director General, and Staff of the Royal Air Force Museum to Cpl Heinz Huhn, the Bombardier of the Dornier 17 that the Royal Air Force Museum raised successfully yesterday from Goodwin Sands.

Of the wreath laying, Peter Dye Director General of the Royal Air Force Museum stated :

‘Today as the Royal Air Force Museum takes stock of its success in raising the Dornier 17 from Goodwin Sands, it is appropriate to remember those who gave their lives during the Summer of 1940. In honouring a fallen German airman, we commemorate all those young men, from across the world, who died in the service of their country. The freedom defended by Britain at great cost in 1940 was built on tolerance, compassion and understanding. In remembering the sacrifice made by the airmen of both sides, we demonstrate our enduring belief in a future based on reconciliation, cooperation and shared values.'

Of the other 3 aircrew in the Dornier 17 : 2 survived and saw out the war in Prisoner of War Camps in Canada, the other member of the crew Wireless Operator Sgt Helmut Reinhardt died of his injuries and is buried in Ysselsteyn, Holland.