Pilot culture - counter safety?

[PompeyPaul]

I heard an interesting exchange between Farnborough Radar and an aircraft on Sunday morning. It went something like:

FR: G-XXXX you are very close to Solent's zone
G-XXXX: We are only going to pass it near 1NM
FR: Negative you are about to enter - do you need navigation assistance?
G-XXXX: Negative, not at this time
FR: G-XXXX You have now penetrated Solent's zone

FR then carried on to provide a position fix to the pilot who carried on his merry way.

This played out over 5 or 6 minutes. The question that puzzled me was why did the pilot not take FR up on their navigation assistance?

The options are:

1. Workload, I'm already flumoxed, more information is going to hurt - I can't take it all in anyway
2. I don't want to admit something is wrong I am sure it'll be fine
3. I don't want to show myself up, on a busy radio, as needing navigation

I do wonder if pilot's tendency, driven by concern for the ultimate price you'll pay if it goes wrong, to jump on people & questions and give them a kicking leads to people not asking the questions they should and seek the help they should?

Ultimately, one of the reasons I stopped reading this board was due to the haters. Although this board is a reflection of pilot culture, if you say anything wrong you are immediately, usually abruptly, corrected and usually very publicly.

It reminded me of a new games company Supercell. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2013/04/17/is-this-the-fastest-growing-game-company-ever/)
Employees crack open champagne to toast their failure. “We really want to celebrate maybe not the failure itself but the learning that comes out of the failure,” says Paananen.

Maybe we should celebrate stupid questions, we should all breathe a sigh of relief and toast something silly we see here? It's better it was posed and questioned here rather than going VERY badly wrong in the air! :ok:

[fireflybob]

Without knowing the specifics, why wouldn't FR hand said aircraft over to Solent ATC for transit not to mention eating humble pie for an infringement.

Or would FR be coordinating with Solent?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The options are
4. What's this bollocks this guy is talking at me? I'm on the magenta line FFS; what's his problem?

[Pilot.Lyons]

Haha gertrude :)

[mad_jock]

Well I have been accused of being inside a danger area which limits runs along the coast line. We were feet wet 2 miles off shore but within gliding distance. And two weeks prior to that we had the range officer in the school and also an ordinance survey map which they had produced which showed the limits of the range and the affected airspace.

Personally I wouldn't let a magenta line keep me 1 mile outside. A feature I would like a coast or railway track. But even then sometimes the AIP coordinates don't match the depiction on the CAA chart exactly.

[Johnm]

This raises an interesting question or two.

Radar accuracy is such that you could easily be a couple of miles from where the radar controller thinks you are under some circumstances.

The aeroplane's position on your GPS also depends on the zoom level and you can also be misled by a couple of miles if you aren't careful.

This isn't an issue in VMC as you can see land features, but can sometimes be significant in IMC. A pilot who infringes because he isn't prepared to take advice is a concern to put it mildly!

[24Carrot]

Trying to see it from the radar controller's point of view, presumably his job is to keep "his" radar traces a minimum distance from a line on his screen, and if your radar trace goes the wrong side of that line he is obliged to move the commercial traffic, irrrespective of where you are really.

So there must be occasions when you will be asked or told to move away via FR, even though you are not quite infringing.

[Jonzarno]

I find this hard to understand. What's the point of having a radar service if you don't listen to what the provider tells you?

[mad_jock]

So there must be occasions when you will be asked or told to move away

There are and some ATC will say its tactical controlling in class G as a duty of care.

By the sounds of the reply the pilot knew exactly where they were and was on a "job" to get somewhere and wasn't playing.

I doubt very much they were on a radar service. I also doubt they were a PPL.

And the reason why they didn't take them up is because they knew exactly what they were doing and had no intention of moving. Quite why they bothered with a service I don't really know unless they get a kick out of arguing with controllers. He might of previously gone from IMC to VMC and used the LARs to get a cloud break.

Not all of us are slaves to radio. If we get pushed or deem ourselves being over controlled or on the end of an un-helpful service we are more than happy to not play ball in class G to the point of "QSYing onroute good day". It would how ever tend to be experienced commercial pilots used to operating in class G who know the rules by heart and have the confidence to argue the toss knowing they won't be touched, not PPL's although I am sure there are a few out there that would.

[Johnm]

Quote:



So there must be occasions when you will be asked or told to move away

There are and some ATC will say its tactical controlling in class G as a duty of care.

By the sounds of the reply the pilot knew exactly where they were and was on a "job" to get somewhere and wasn't playing.

I doubt very much they were on a radar service. I also doubt they were a PPL.

And the reason why they didn't take them up is because they knew exactly what they were doing and had no intention of moving. Quite why they bothered with a service I don't really know unless they get a kick out of arguing with controllers. He might of previously gone from IMC to VMC and used the LARs to get a cloud break.

Not all of us are slaves to radio. If we get pushed or deem ourselves being over controlled or on the end of an un-helpful service we are more than happy to not play ball in class G to the point of "QSYing onroute good day". It would how ever tend to be experienced commercial pilots used to operating in class G who know the rules by heart and have the confidence to argue the toss knowing they won't be touched, not PPL's although I am sure there are a few out there that would.

If you take a service you have a deal with the ATCO, he gives you info and you keep him informed of your intentions, in class G he can't tell you what to do. If you infringe controlled airspace a MOR will be raised and if the recording shows the kind of exchange outlined in the original post you can bank on a dicussion without tea and biscuits with CAA if not an appearance before a magistrate.

[mad_jock]

No you won't have a chat with the CAA. All that happens with MOR's is they go into the 4 month backlog. And a basic service implies absolutely zero deals without further communication. Which you can either accept or refuse as you wish.

If the controller used another form for breach of the ANO you might get a call to which you reply I was outside controlled airspace tracking along xx feature 1 Nm outside the boundary. As you say the radar isn't as accurate as people might think. I wouldn't like to guess how far you actually have to get inside, as that sort of buggeration behaviour skimming boundarys and cruising 100ft below CAS seems particularly pointless to me if you have room not to.

It would be interesting to know if Solent thought that they were inside as well. It might very well be that the FR's overlay is out or there is some screwup with the mosaic if they are sharing and merging feeds. For chasing that one person may open a whole hornets nest of tech issues which would be a pain in the neck and expensive to get sorted.

Yep take the guy to court if he did bust the zone. But unless they think he will plead guilty or managed to get well inside the zone they won't touch it.

[S-Works]

I had a bust up with a Luton controller a few years ago after he was adamant that I had bust the Luton zone. Asked me to call him on the ground which I did and proceeded to berate me. I assured him that I was OCAS and told him to pull the tapes. He then told me that if he pulled the tapes he would have to file against me. I told him to go ahead. I was 2nm OCAS and in no danger of going near it.

After much arguing about it on another forum the shift manager came back and confirmed that having reviewed the tapes I was I fact nowhere near busting their airspace. Controllers can and do make mistakes and radar is nowhere near as accurate as some would like us to believe.

We have a radar head off the end of our runway and on some days it does not even pick me up if I am i the circuit.

There will be arguments about how close we can get to CAS but quite simply, the edge of it is the edge, adding a further fudge factor to it jut serves to increase the size of it. If it needed to be increased in size then why hasn't it?

[CharlieDeltaUK]

The OP used this story as one example of a wider issue. Do we have a culture which admonishes pilots who make mistakes at the risk of suppressing the learning of those who are about to make mistakes?

Its a tricky balance; on the one hand, pilots will be intolerant of the incompetence of others who threaten safety or reputation for everyone, but on the other hand there's a lot to learn and experience and it would be nice to think we could get the silly questions resolved on the ground without being roasted.

[Johnm]

And a basic service implies absolutely zero deals without further communication.

A basic service is more pointless than a really pointless thing so I had discounted that......... Fair point on MOR, I should have been more precise.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Take a trip to Farnborough LARS sometime, they are a very welcoming and friendly bunch. I use Farnborough a lot, and never cease to be amazed how often I hear them warn pilots of how adjacent they are to CAS, and the replies they get. One guy recently seemed not to have a map, or any kind of flight guide but was reliant on his magenta line as he had to ask for three different frequencies. Another spent 30 minutes complaining that Farnborough was "just strength 3 madam, please check your kit." when she was 5's to everyone else on frequency.

Some pilots seem to have an overwhelming belief in their own abilities, and are insulted when someone questions them, or points out a looming problem over an active frequency, maybe they need to try taking a hint once in a while.

The Farnborough frequencies are astonishingly busy on any weekend and I for one am glad that they keep their sense of humour and keep on raising the standards of LARS in the way they do.

SND

[hoodie]

The OP used this story as one example of a wider issue. Do we have a culture which admonishes pilots who make mistakes at the risk of suppressing the learning of those who are about to make mistakes?

"We" certainly (and unfortunately) do here, on PPRuNe, although thankfully it's not as bad as it used to be around five or so years ago.

Thankfully it's not like that In Real Life, where (in my experience) positive and constructive criticism can usually be found.

[Dave Gittins]

I'll tell a tale and see what reaction I get.

On Sunday morning, Pompey Paul obviously heard an exchange between Farnborough W and somebody near the Solent zone. About 10.30 Z he may have also heard Farnborough tell me I was about to infringe the Heathrow zone. I was White Waltham to Redhill and just on the corner by Bagshot Mast.

She was quite right but I had already caught it myself and turned a little further South ... nethertheless I was most grateful for the advice. Another time I may have been slightly less aware and ended up doing something stoopid.

I have had one "no tea or biscuits" discussion after infringing Gatwick from a 18 departure from Redhill and I don't want another one. I simply (they proved with a radar trace) flew about 3 - 400 yards too far south before turning east.

The consequences were a couple of circuits with the CFI and to absolutely demonstate that I knew the correct turning points in the circuit. His telling the CAA that I'd learned a lesson saved any further action.

I am a lot more cautious of CAS now and if keeping a few hundred yards further away so I can rely on a recognisable feature (as well as my shiny new iPad and copy of Skydemon) is what it takes ... so be it.

DGG

[John R81]

I run through that same turn at Bagshot quite often. I once had an ATC call me to say I was going to infringe Heathrow - I wasn't, I was clearly outside but "close" - I thanked them for the information, and steered a wider track around the turn than normal that day.

Additional flight time - not 30 seconds.
Hassel time saved - incalculable.

Have had a couple of other calls from ATC to say I would shortly 'bust' some airspace or other if I continued speed/heading and they were right. Sometimes I had every intention of turning shortly - informed them and carried on - just now and then I had become slightly displaced spacially from where I thought I was, and they did me a considerable service.

Personally, if whoever (ATC, Radio, etc) gives me advice / information / request over the radio then unless there is good reason I will accommodate them.