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OFSO
19th May 2013, 05:49
Anyone else following the story of Marks and Spencer cash deductions from customer's credit cards on a 'walk-by' basis ? Most alarming. Will wrapping the cards in aluminum foil stop it ? And if so does one need to trail an earthing lead from the foil ?

Marks and Spencer customer fears over contactless payments - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/10066187/Marks-and-Spencer-customer-fears-over-contactless-payments.html)

sitigeltfel
19th May 2013, 05:54
And peanut butter.............don't forget the peanut butter!

green granite
19th May 2013, 06:23
I sense a business opportunity here, Faraday cages for credit cards. :ok:

sitigeltfel
19th May 2013, 06:38
Already available!
(http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/8cdd/)

Flap 5
19th May 2013, 07:53
So, you have to have one of those cards that send out a signal? So, don't get one of those cards. Simples.

Any ordinary card will not be effected. A bit of scaremongering really.

hellsbrink
19th May 2013, 08:11
Not sure how much of a choice you have about getting one of these cards, flap 5, for it seems that everyone is going to be rolling them out (in the UK and US, at least) so before long you won't have the option of not being issued with one.

P6 Driver
19th May 2013, 08:42
I recently replaced my current account card (in the UK) and wasn't told or asked about the contactless element now available.

The card was simply supplied with it embedded and the first I knew about it was on reading the leaflet that was in the envelope.

SpringHeeledJack
19th May 2013, 08:52
In the UK it seems that most new cards have the feature without being asked/requested and it it on the onus of the card holder to ask/demand a 'normal' card.......:ugh: Theoretically a fantastic idea, but sadly so insecure in reality, and if a card is lost or stolen, the thief can just simply swipe and touch away until the card is stopped or maxed-out :rolleyes:

Someone I know had to almost strong-arm their worldwide bank to get the un-contactless cards over several days of effort, with many staff completely unaware that this was possible. There's something to be said about internet banking when the 'highly trained' staff are so lacking.



SHJ

Blues&twos
19th May 2013, 09:11
I don't see how the minor benefit of contactless cards outweighs the potential security problems. Do people really have to save themselves every few precious seconds??

Lon More
19th May 2013, 09:18
It can liven up the journey to work

Barclaycard Waterslide - extended 90 secs advert - YouTube

The ad is from 2008, so they've been around for a while. Worth checking to see what yours is.

ExSp33db1rd
19th May 2013, 09:19
A Consumer TV programme in New Zealand last week screened the video that's going around of a USA media hound stopping people in the street and telling them the number of their credit/debit card, having used his 'easily obtained' electronic bits to make a scanner to zap them as they walked by, and record the details on his laptop.

At the end of the clip, the host introduced Mr. MasterCard NZ, who emphatically denied the possibility, no, niet, nein, non, negative, totally impossible and a scaremongering gimmick, and also proclaimed that the RFID chips were safer than the heretofore magnetic stripe, which he said can be easily copied and scammed. ( I believe that )

I now have a shield of kitchen foil stuck inside the little plastic envelope of my wallet that holds my credit card - and I don't even have an RFID card -yet !

What do you think ? ( tip - ask 3 people and get 5 answers ):hmm:

treadigraph
19th May 2013, 10:04
I didn't know mine was contactless until I noticed a bus trip that should have debited my Oyster Card had done the credit card instead.

The credit card company sent me - unasked - a smaller version to stick to the back of my mobile phone, one of the most regularly nicked/mislaid items of personal kit known to mankind. Right...

Capetonian
19th May 2013, 10:11
This all makes me wonder, do the people who design such things belong to, or test them in, the real world? Or are they from another planet?

For me, yet another reason to keep moving towards cash.

hellsbrink
19th May 2013, 10:22
I now have a shield of kitchen foil stuck inside the little plastic envelope of my wallet that holds my credit card - and I don't even have an RFID card -yet !

But would that actually make a difference to an RFID, or contactless, card? There's plenty articles out there that say that even wrapping the card up completely in foil will not actually block the RFID but will merely weaken the signal so it can still be read no matter what. The same goes for these "wallets" which claim that they block any access to your card until you pull the card out of the wallet, they simply do not do that but merely attenuate the signal.

Here's one example of what I mean, and it seems it all depends on the "reader" that is used to read the card in the first case.

Aluminum Foil Does Not Stop RFID (http://www.omniscienceisbliss.org/rfid.html)

onetrack
19th May 2013, 11:17
I sense a business opportunity here, Faraday cages for credit cards.

The Chinese already beat you. Bought this one from my local Chinese products $2.00 store for $4.99. It has a solid aluminium case with a heavy plastic liner and it's quite good quality.

It has 7 pockets for cards, and I have 9 in there currently, with 2 pockets carrying 2 cards each.

It has the advantage of making my wallet thinner and easier to sit on, and it means if I lose my wallet, I don't lose all my cards. I'll have to try swiping it over a card-reading machine to see how effective it really is.

I love it when I show it to people, and they wail about how they just bought one off some TV advertising promotion, for $49.99 (with free delivery of course :) ).

http://i44.tinypic.com/a2pycl.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/351ehbl.jpg

Fareastdriver
19th May 2013, 11:36
Fleabay is crawling with them.

metal credit card holder | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R4.TR10.TRC0&_nkw=metal+credit+card+holder&_sacat=0&_from=R40)

OFSO
19th May 2013, 12:01
They are sold here in Spain - look to be identical - as "Made in Germany" at 35 each. Methinks someone is making a vast profit.

flash8
19th May 2013, 12:42
Interesting that when alleged US Spy Fogle in Moscow was caught he had in his possession RFID shielded cases for his cards. No doubt mandated by Policy!

flash8
19th May 2013, 13:20
. Bought this one from my local Chinese products $2.00 store for $4.99

A Classic!

onetrack
19th May 2013, 13:46
That's inflation for you, Flash8! I can still remember buying sixpenny (5c) icecreams when I was a kid, that now cost $4.00!! :{

rmcb
19th May 2013, 14:08
Do people really have to save themselves every few precious seconds??

If you are a yummy mummy from Primrose hill, every second is vital - your regular Latte from Starbucks is getting cold. Your ex Goldman's investment banker husband's cash must be well marshalled...

do the people who design such things belong to, or test them in, the real world? Or are they from another planet?

Yes, they do (I was one). The problem is that no matter how many times you demonstrate the cynic in yourself vis. human nature, you are shot down by the cool and happening marketing department who focuses its focus on... Yummy mummies from Primrose Hill. Who, coincidentally, have nothing better to do with their saved time!

Just look at Bluetooth and how that wrecked trust in these devices.

hellsbrink
19th May 2013, 15:27
Do people really have to save themselves every few precious seconds??

The only people who want this, in reality, are the credit card companies as every single use of the card, whether in the "usual" manner or the RFID version, makes them money.

So they create a product that nobody actually asked for and then promote it as something that they could never live without. And because it hasn't been tested properly, because the "standards" for the readers vary with RFIDs being read at distances of over 1 foot (think of these RFID tags on clothes, etc, in shops and how far away from the detectors you can be and still trigger them), then of course there will be security issues, just like there was with chip+pin.

Windy Militant
19th May 2013, 15:41
The Technology isn't new it's been used for years as a method of access control and time keeping. When they installed the system at work instead of a light system that read holes drilled in a card that had to be inserted in the reader we had no end of fun. First off the system was supposed to be set so that if you got to about five foot from the reader it clocked you in, to save you time going to the reader. Except it worked every time you walked past the thing. So they reduced the power on the readers so half of us couldn't get the thing to respond even when the card was placed in contact with the reader!
seven years on they've got the readers sorted so you can book in with a card in a wallet or under a coat.
All they have to do now is get the software to work!:rolleyes:

vulcanised
19th May 2013, 16:59
Seems to be part of the genre that is produced by the 'We think it's great, now you bloodywell use it' brigade.

Like digital radio http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

OFSO
19th May 2013, 17:02
Maybe a silly question, but do the credit cards carry some symbol on them indentifying them as 'contactless' - as for example my passport does ?

P6 Driver
19th May 2013, 17:49
I'm not bright enough to set the photo up here, but it's on this link;

contactless card symbol - Google Search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=contactless+card+symbol&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=UBCZUY3DNo3y0gX5sIDwBw&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=655#imgrc=pR7-x3LGZy9PMM%3A%3BajnCoONykj7Y1M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.wisd omsblogs.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2012%252F12%252Fcontactless.jpg%3Bht tp%253A%252F%252Fwww.wisdomsblogs.com%252F2012%252F12%252F24 %252Ftfl-buses-nfc-contactless-payment%252F%3B577%3B577)

Capetonian
19th May 2013, 18:00
http://www.barclays.co.uk/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1259983154909&ssbinary=true

Not a silly question at all, I was wondering the same. The answer is the )))) symbol in the top right hand corner.

vulcanised
19th May 2013, 20:00
I expect one of your Nigerian friends is busy cloning that.

racedo
19th May 2013, 22:19
Must admit to being a bit of a luddite............

Bank keeps trying to sell me the benefits of Internet banking....................i just say I don't trust it, they say perfectly safe and stop when I remind them that the ATM's still get hacked and my card gets cloned.

Took me years to get a Debit card in the 90's, only got it when no other choice.

My view on contactless cards is that when they become compulsory I will go back to using CASH or use an electron card supposedly just for those who can't get proper bank accounts because of poor credit.

onetrack
19th May 2013, 23:39
The contactless card symbol isn't totally standardised. Mastercard can use either the aforementioned symbol, or just the "Pay Pass" words symbol, as indicators of a contactless card.

http://i40.tinypic.com/nzn4go.jpg

ricardian
19th May 2013, 23:48
Remember what it was difficult to get a bank account, you needed a letter stating that you were a suitable person to hold a bank account!

ExSp33db1rd
20th May 2013, 01:00
Seems to be part of the genre that is produced by the 'We think it's great, now you bloodywell use it' brigade.

Like cellphones.

Remember what it was difficult to get a bank account, you needed a letter stating that you were a suitable person to hold a bank account!

Just had a letter from a UK financial institution demanding certified evidence of my address and identity, i.e. I have to prove that I'm not an International money launderer, not the other way around you note. Guilty until proved innocent.

I completed their request, then they replied, refusing my answer because they said my answers weren't in English !! What bl**dy language did they think I used, Serbo-croat ? I've closed my account with them, stuff'em.

Obviously not qualified to comment on the tinfoil shield device, but I've done it anyway, can't harm and is no inconvenience to me - other than 5 minutes of time and an argument with Mrs. ExS as to why I'm fossicking around in 'her' 'kitchen drawers' ( at least I'm not fossicking around in her 'drawers' )

ENFP
20th May 2013, 12:48
( at least I'm not fossicking around in her 'drawers' )


That's why she was arguing with you ;)