Ryanair accused of 'exploiting' staff

[kick the tires]

I only dare share the link!!

Ryanair accused of 'exploiting' staff - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/10063697/Ryanair-accused-of-exploiting-staff.html)

[Cacophonix]

It has not been a good news week for Ryanair that's for sure.

Still must say that I know a couple of Ryanair pilots who are happy with their lot so, as in many cases, it is horses for courses in these matters.

[despegue]

Well, they ARE exploiting their staff. we all know this, yet some do not dare to tell here it seems.
Ryanair is guilty of False self employment.
There is no doubt about this, and the various current investigations against FR prove that the countries where FR is operating are finally waking-up.
They also exploit passengers by its very confusing website design.
I am a passenger, so I am entitled to give this opinion by the way...

Exploiting is how they make their profit. it is their business plan and core of their operation.

[zerograv]

What???

Can't be .... that this thread has not been deleted yet.

Let's see how long its going to last :suspect:

[Westlakejawa]

Are you,or have been a Ryanair passenger?.:sad:

[racedo]

Well, they ARE exploiting their staff. we all know this, yet some do not dare to tell here it seems.
You are speaking for yourself on here, I do not see you as being head of any representative group given permission to speak on others behalf.


Ryanair is guilty of False self employment.
There is no doubt about this, and the various current investigations against FR prove that the countries where FR is operating are finally waking-up.
No doubt you have the qualifications to define International Tax law and Employment law and are a suitably qualified Internationally recognised Judge.
You indicating a Guilty verdict but have provided no evidence, heard no evidence.


They also exploit passengers by its very confusing website design.
I am a passenger, so I am entitled to give this opinion by the way...
I am interesting in hearing the link between design and exploitation as clearly you feel qualified in this regard as well as in International Employment Law, International Taxation and as a qualified Judge.

Appears only qualification you stating is as a passnger though and you are not giving opinion when stating "they ARE exploiting their staff." Ryanair is guilty of False self employment.
There is no doubt about this.
I believe you are indicating FACT rather than opinion.


Exploiting is how they make their profit. it is their business plan and core of their operation. So as well as being an expert in International Employment Law, International Tax, a Learned Judge you are now a fully qualified Accountant with experience in Strategic Planning and Profitability.....................wow some CV.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[toffeez]

Providing what the passengers want is how they make their profit. It is their business plan and core of their operation.

[Teddy Robinson]

You thought Ryanair's attendants had it bad? Wait 'til you hear about their pilots - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/you-thought-ryanairs-attendants-had-it-bad-wait-til-you-hear-about-their-pilots-8621681.html)

[despegue]

Unfortunately,
I do have to spend time onboard Ryanair from time to time.

Never seen Safety issues though:hmm:

Racedo,

The facts are in plain view. if a so called contractor gets his/hers work schedule from a company, wears an ID and/or Uniform from a company, is only allowed to work for that one company, then according to EU and thus also National legislation, you are employed by said company, nomatter what your contract, which in that case is illegal ( again always the responsability of the employer),tells you.
Brookfield and all are just smokehoods in this case.
And yes, I have spend a considerable amount of money on legal advice to obtain this info, which is absolutely correct.
Like it or not, these are the facts.

Booking through the Ryanair website is a snakepit of boobytraps for the inexperienced traveller or user.
By specifically having to navigate through insurance offerings, and specifically having to indicate you do not want this service, they knowingly increase the chances of users inadvertantly choosing insurance. same goes with the hotel, luggage, carhire and transportation offers, of which FR all gets a commission.
Asking passengers to pay an extra fee for the obligatory web check-in, which is done at your home with your computer, paper and printer, is exploiting. no other way of putting it.

In a way, I do admire their antics, as it is very succesfull...I do hate their antics as a passenger, who, mind you still pays less than with the competition.

I am also sure that a lot of crew for Ryanair are happy with their current situation. Good for them, but the fact remains that Contracting pilots for airlines do not exist according to EU legislation, of which Ireland is a member state.

Now Racedo, if you are flightcrew, you would better support our profession by actively fighting against the downward spiral our profession is going.

[Capetonian]

I do have to spend time onboard Ryanair from time to time

Dragged aboard kicking and screaming in handcuffs?

I made a decision some years ago to never fly Ryanair - and I won't. Some people criticise it, with good reason, but continue to fly on it because it's 'cheap'. Cheap comes at a price and if that compromises safety, and I firmly believe it does, I won't fly them. It is also against my principles to use a company with such rotten ethics.

[despegue]

As I said before, I have always been happy with what I saw regarding safety.
I have not felt unsafe and not seen anything fishy althoug I have extensive experience on B737.
From friends flying there, it seems that training is also professional.
One thing Ryanair realizes is that good training and good maintenance reduces cost in the long term. as I said before, they ARE smart.

[racedo]

Unfortunately,
I do have to spend time onboard Ryanair from time to time.

Never seen Safety issues thoughhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Racedo,

The facts are in plain view. if a so called contractor gets his/hers work schedule from a company, wears an ID and/or Uniform from a company, is only allowed to work for that one company, then according to EU and thus also National legislation, you are employed by said company, nomatter what your contract, which in that case is illegal ( again always the responsability of the employer),tells you.
Brookfield and all are just smokehoods in this case.
And yes, I have spend a considerable amount of money on legal advice to obtain this info, which is absolutely correct.
Like it or not, these are the facts.

Booking through the Ryanair website is a snakepit of boobytraps for the inexperienced traveller or user.
By specifically having to navigate through insurance offerings, and specifically having to indicate you do not want this service, they knowingly increase the chances of users inadvertantly choosing insurance. same goes with the hotel, luggage, carhire and transportation offers, of which FR all gets a commission.
Asking passengers to pay an extra fee for the obligatory web check-in, which is done at your home with your computer, paper and printer, is exploiting. no other way of putting it.

In a way, I do admire their antics, as it is very succesfull...I do hate their antics as a passenger, who, mind you still pays less than with the competition.

I am also sure that a lot of crew for Ryanair are happy with their current situation. Good for them, but the fact remains that Contracting pilots for airlines do not exist according to EU legislation, of which Ireland is a member state.

Now Racedo, if you are flightcrew, you would better support our profession by actively fighting against the downward spiral our profession is going.

So no legal, taxation, design or business qualifications then and claiming "I am a Passenger" is a bit more than that.

Nice try but claiming like Rafa Benitez that something is a fact, doesn't make it so.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I do not see you as being head of any representative group given permission to speak on others behalf.

Clearly not, I understood Ryanair don't tolerate subversiveness like that.

[Clandestino]

I am not employed and have never been employed by Ryanair in any capacity, neither have I ever worked as a professional flight crew for Ryanair or as a cabin crew or any other airline. I have never flown with Ryanair as a passenger but on a number of occasions I have seen their aroplanes, flying, taxiing, towed or parked and that is the extent of my relationship with the Company.

In various posts on the PPRuNe website, I have seen and followed a number of links leading to media claims about Ryanair and the safety of its flights and operations which I now accept were made by professional journalists. I recognise and accept that I had no basis in fact for believing such articles are true and I unreservedly declare my interest in these being on pair with Michael O'Leary saying "free blowjobs" in front of the camera.

I have considered and unreservedly accept the joint statement made by the Irish Aviation Authority and the Department of Transport on 18 September 2012 that Ryanair safety is “on a par with the safest airlines in Europe”, especially being fully aware that this might very well include Air France. I recognise that Ryanair has operated for over 28 years with an outstanding safety record and never been charged with non compliance with Boeing, FAA, European and Irish Regulations.

I unreservedly apologise to Ryanair for reading the articles published and any damage that my act of reading may have caused. I have made a contribution towards further thinning of ozone layer by releasing some methane to atmosphere in recognition of the seriousness of my reading of aformentioned articles and have undertaken to Ryanair that reading will not be repeated.

I also wish to apologise to any Ryanair management who may have been upset or concerned by me reading the articles.

[Pablo_Diablo]

Some employers exploit their employees more than others though so trying to make it seem normal and accepted i don't think is a good point trying to make.

[Clandestino]

...creating "exploatation gap" which needs to be closed if one is to remain competitive.

[Dan Winterland]

Mentioning Ryanair has been known to bring on bouts of Tourettes.

[TeaTowel]

Boo ******* hoo. Pay to get ahead in your career and expect to be treated like crap. I hope they all get taxed to the hilt soon and the new intake of cadets reduces everyone's hours to less than 500 a year.

They can always quit.

[Sunnyjohn]

Sophie Growcoot, who was employed by Crewlink, a contractor for Ryanair
Sub-contracting is widespread across all industries. Complaints and comments should be aimed at Crewlink, not Ryanair

[Pablo_Diablo]

Or pay another 40.000€ for a typerating to be able to earn ANY money and take advantage of the training and education already done becoming a pilot costing over 50.000€. thats another thread though...

I disageee Sunnyjohn, Ryanair use four or five contracting agencies for cabin crew and two for flight crew. For the 'employee' it doesn't matter which one u signed a contract with, you still face exactly the same daily duties and routines as the others doing the same job except some minor contractual differences.

[Perrin]

I am a retired LAE living near PIK which as you know is RA main maintenance base. I have talked to other LAE's who have gone to work at PIK and most of them are surprised at the very HIGH level of maintenance there. A lot of them came from big outfits saying that RA did great work and better than others as they know delays cost money. BUT the way he runs the airline is a insult to treating staff and punters alike. Just to say they are not unsafe maintenance wise!!!!:=

[Sunnyjohn]

I disageee Sunnyjohn, Ryanair use four or five contracting agencies for cabin crew and two for flight crew.
I take your point PD; nevertheless, she signed with Crewlink and agreed to their terms and conditions.

[bacp]

Would never work for them and will never fly with them if humanly possible.

[Facelookbovvered]

Do pilots who fly exclusively for Ryanair, but who are not employed by them and who have a regular place from which they fly said aircraft in UK pay employers NI contributions either in the UK or elsewhere, if so who pays it? if not why not?

[talkpedlar]

..your argument is as valid and convincing as your shocking grammar ... :ugh:

[3bars]

Haven't worked for an airline yet that doesn't exploit it's staff. No amount of profit ever seems to be enough, and often at staff expense.

They're all the same circus, just different tents:E

[Say Mach Number]

Ryanair, Google, etc they are all the same;

They push the limit of whats acceptable, legal, moral and basically say 'if you think your big enough and hard enough have a go' we will see you in court.

None of this is new its been happening for years.

The difference now is that Europe is bankrupt and all the Govts are scrambling around trying to find a few billion quid here and there and under the sofa.

Its double standards from the Govts and politicians as when it was champagne and loads of money they didnt give two hoots about about Ryanair/ Google and the like.

Govts are now in the doo doo financially so everyone watch out.

Doesnt make it right what Ryanair Google etc do but it does smack of double standards from the Govts.

[felixthecat]

There's a surprise FR exploiting it's staff…who would have thought it! :ugh::ugh:

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I recently flew with Ryanair to visit friends in Malta. £49.99 each way was the advertised fee (from Bournemouth); out on a Thu morning and back the following Mon.

Despite the advertised fee being £49.99 each way, the total billed fare was £84.48 a cheaper fare?

The carry-on baggage allowance appears, on first instance, to be adequate; however, the restricted (dimensional) size of the bag is somewhat small. Hence, I took the option for hold baggage... an additional £40.

Also, I didn't want to join the free-boarding "bunfight", so I elected for a reserved seat (with extra legroom)... an additional £20.

Web check-in cost a further £14 (what an effin swizz)... my computer, my printer etc.

An EU Levy... £5. ETS (whatever that is)... 0.50p. Insurance... £9.79. And finally, an administration fee of £14. In total, the final fee was £187.77!

Bournemouth (outbound)... I went through to departures one hour prior to the advertised departure time and the throngs were already queuing to get onto the aeroplane; which hadn't yet arrived! I sat in the coffee shop with a newspaper until the last few people were going through the boarding gate. I then tagged onto the end of the queue to be last on the aeroplane (with a reserved seat). My boarding pass was then checked and I was directed to the front of the queue (I was told that I had priority boarding). The aircraft was late arriving, so I spent the next twenty minutes shuffling my feet at the front of a sea of people. Finally, I boarded (priority of course), only to be jostled and pushed by everyone behind me. I sat in my aisle seat and, after having several bottoms shoved into my face, everyone finally got seated and off we went. During the three-hour sector I was offered everything from the trolley (for a fee of course)... I declined. Then came the "scratchcards"... no thanks! Perfumes... no thanks! After landing at Luqa, my baggage did arrive in quite quick time (no-one else had hold baggage!).

For the return flight... I got wise! I was booked into seat 1A and I therefor remained seated in the departure area until the very last person went through the gate... I then tagged onto the end of the queue (declining the priority boarding offer). At the top of the steps... 1A... sat down, door closed... loadsa legroom; until we became airborne! Every fat lady on the aeroplane wanted to use the bathroom... the area in front of me was full of people shuffling to use the loo... they'd been stood in a queue for too long at the airport! More bottoms in my face (some were very smelly)! More scratchcard and perfume offers... no thanks. On arrival at Bournemouth, another Ryanair jet (from Tenerife) was late arriving and, as a result of limited baggage carts, hold luggage was collected from both jets prior to being delivered to the baggage hall... a 45 minute wait for luggage... and a huge bunfight when the baggage belt started to move!

Will I travel with Ryanair again? Not on your life... unless I have to!

[felixthecat]

Everyone knows what you get with Ryanair when you fly, a big fat zero. We all know that it will say the price is X and we will end up paying Y (which is always higher). We know you won't get first class because thats not what its about…you shouldn't expect it. You are traveling low cost so thats what you should expect and thats what you will get.

As the public you have the choice and you are informed and can easily vote with you feet and your wallet to go else where.

As staff however it is a different matter, its not so easy to move jobs, or indeed to stand up to intimidation threats and exploitation. :sad:

[fulminn]

The flight crew contract is 5 years.

[Capetonian]

Will I travel with Ryanair again? Not on your life... unless I have to!

Why would you have to? It is almost inconceivable that there would be no alternative.

[fulminn]

and also, guys, read all the terms and condition when you buy something in general, don't just click click and click...please do not complain if you are lazy to read....:rolleyes:

[Agaricus bisporus]

Chitterne, We all agree that Ryanair's way of adding layer after layer of non-optional cost, ie on line check-in and admin fees (I thought this had been banned but there we are) leaves one with the strong impression of a swindle luggage and priority seating is most definitely your choice. The rest of your post, the actual experience of the flight and boarding scrum is common to almost every other budget airline and many that aren't so it is a bit harsh to judge Ryanair by that. Much of the unpleasantness was caused by pax behaving like pax, who's "fault" is that?
You don't have to be pestered for scratch cards and stickybuns, if you don't want anything just ignore them and don't look pleadingly at the crew...

The matter of "self employed" being demonstrably illegal is a shameful neglect of governments (UK included) for ignoring the matter and not dealing with a widespread employment law and tax fraud, for that's what it is. Ryanair, as ever, tries it on and is repeatedly allowed to get away with it. Its unethical and shabby but if regulators won't regulate the :mad: and rogues take over the market unhindered.

[Skyhigh86]

"cheap flights, cheap flights they're only fifty pee"

isnt that how the song goes?

[captplaystation]

It seems the Dutch TV companies are not so easily intimidated as dear old pprune :D





RyanairPilotGroup
Judge refuses Ryanair inspect material KRO

The Amsterdam District Court has rejected a claim by Ryanair. The airline demanded access to the raw footage of two documentaries of the Focal Reporter program.

Reporter - Rechter weigert Ryanair inzage in materiaal KRO (http://reporter.kro.nl/seizoenen/2012/afleveringen/28-12-2012/rechter_weigert_ryanair_inzage_in_materiaal_kro)

Reporter - Rechter weigert Ryanair inzage in materiaal KRO
reporter.kro.nl
De rechtbank Amsterdam heeft een eis van Ryanair afgewezen. De vliegmaatschappij eiste inzage in het ruwe beeldmateriaal van twee documentaires van het programma Brandpunt Reporter.


Edited to say, cockney steve just reminded me (below) Post #14 -Clandestino :D had to pass a wry smile at that one ;)

[cockney steve]

@ Clandestino....Thanks for post #14 :ok: A masterpiece in satire.


Re- exploitation....Many upright and moral citizens wrestle with their concience when buying Big Brand trainers and the like. The quality of the £150+jobbies is little different to the £9..99 budget ones, save the carefully massaged and nurtured "prestige" of the coveted logo........Indeed, there is the tale of the new Chinese factory,set-up and monitored by the Brand-Owner,who couldn't understand how the marketplace was awash with "his" products ,retailing at less than his cost.....eventually it was realised that the OTHER new factory , directly opposite, was producing identical counterfeits!

Where is this heading?

If you refuse to buy this product of exploited, sweatshop labour, you're condemning the workers to a subsistance-lifestyle, back in the Paddy-Fields(NO! I don't mean rural Ireland:} )
They have a choice, just like the Miners,Cotton-mill workers and Canal-Navvies who fuelled the Industrial Revolution.

The bosses got mansions, the workers,-slums.

Easy to say"Boycott xxx. - they're screwing their employees"....fact is, if you did that, the next-up level of employer in that trade, would NOT take all that extra business....the market would shrink because the bottom-end would not pay more.

This happens at every level, wether it be the local pub going under charging £2-a pint , when the "offie" sells it for 80p.
Or the builder of luxury-yachts, who finds the market has shrunk.

Vote with your feet, but remember, the lower-ranks will feel the pain first and harder than the management.

[RAT 5]

In the newspaper article at the start of this thread the response by a RYR spokesman was to say that the claims were 'false'. Crewlink also denied the allegations. It should be a simple black & white test for a 'learned friend' to analyse the facts and decide if indeed they are false. If it is found that the claims are true then it could be said that RYR, (& perhaps Crewlink) and who knows all the other agencies involved in the merry-go-round, are strange bed-fellow with the truth. At the moment an ex-crew member claims X, RYR claims it's false. It should be clearer than one word against another. The crew member has been called a liar. Whose is the next move?

[LNIDA]

It needn't be this way!!

Take Norwegian as a case in point, it is a very similar concept, Boeing 738 all brand new and Europe's 3rd largest LoCo after Ryanair & Esayjet.

The website is totally transparent the price advertised for your flight on the day you want to travel is what you pay, there is no admin fee's or charges if paying with debit card, you do pay extra for luggage, but the extra is a fraction of the cost of Ryanair and the carry on allowance is generous.

Should you change your plans within 4 hours of booking you can cancel for free, again no penalty.

Its all allocated seating and they will seat you together if at all possible, there is a food/beverage service, but no scratch cards, you'll also enjoy free silent movies from the overhead drop down screens together with some route advert.

Free onboard Wifi when above 10'000ft

You won't see 9.99 seat offer's but pick your time and you can get just about anywhere for under £50-£60, you can also book transit flights with luggage checked through via the 3 main nordic hubs

This an airline that has over 220 aircraft on order and is very profitable and still manages to provide its crews with free meals and drink and picks up their hotel bills, pays sick pay and pays standby duty, does not charge for uniforms and employe's a lot of very well trained ex Ryanair pilots

[flash2002]

Ryanair tells pilots that passenger safety fears letter is ?gross misconduct? - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/ryanair-tells-pilots-that-passenger-safety-fears-letter-is-gross-misconduct-29277237.html)

Budget airline Ryanair pilots have been told not to sign a letter to airline regulators expressing concern that the airline’s employment practices could jeopardise passenger safety.

In a memo staff were told they would be guilty of “gross misconduct” and “liable for dismissal” if they signed the letter to the Irish Aviation Authority that regulates Ryanair. The letter was drawn up by the Ryanair Pilot Group (RPG), which represents captains and co-pilots working for the airline but is not recognised by the company.

It warned that the “confusing, uncertain and unpredictable employment situation” at Ryanair was becoming “an increasing distraction in daily flight operations”. It added that it was causing “stress and worry” for pilots and had implications for safety.

Ryanair responded to the letter by warning that any pilot who signed it could be dismissed. “If the Ryanair Pilot Group want to make inaccurate or false claims about non-safety issues they are free to do so, but we will not allow Ryanair’s safety to be defamed by this pilots’ union,” the airline’s chief pilot Ray Conway wrote.

“Please note that any Ryanair pilot who participates in this so-called safety petition will be guilty of gross misconduct and will be liable for dismissal.”

The RPG organised the letter amid concerns that the airline was making the majority of its pilots self-employed. Under the scheme, pilots sign a contract binding them to fly exclusively for Ryanair – but not as employees.

The pilots are then paid for the work they do but have to pay for all their own expenses, including uniforms, identity cards, transport and hotel accommodation. The contracted pilots have no pension scheme or medical insurance unless they set it up themselves.

One Ryanair pilot said that the company was protected because they could claim that pilots had a legal and moral obligation not to fly if they do not think they are capable. But they added: “People are human and if you’re not going to be paid [if you don’t fly] you might think ‘I can do this, I’m fine. I’ll just get on with it’. You should not have a safety culture based on fear.”

[truckflyer]

This should resolve the issue, however there must be some action from HRMC and most likely some unions to make it stick once and for all:

HM Revenue & Customs: Work out if you're employed or self-employed (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/intro/empstatus.htm)

You are probably self-employed if you:
run your own business and take responsibility for its success or failure
have several customers at the same time
can decide how, when and where you do your work
are free to hire other people to do the work for you or help you at your own expense
provide the main items of equipment to do your work


You are probably employed if you:
have to do the work yourself
work for one person at a time, who is in charge of what you do and takes on the risks of the business
can be told how, when and where you do your work
have to work a set amount of hours
are paid a regular amount according to the hours you work, and get paid for working overtime - even if you do casual or part-time work, you can still be employed

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/es-fs1.pdf

From this it is very clear, Ryanair pilots and other pilots can not be self-employed!
It is time somebody starts catching the tax evaders like RYR etc.

[McBruce]

Re: Norwegian

A few key points missed that we wont dwell on. Outsourcing of pilots via contract agencies. Flagship 787 operation based in Thailand for cost reasons. 787 crews perhaps on worst LH contract in Europe, hopefully at some point this changes because it would become prime real estate, job wise.

But yes, I agree, they are a much better airline and employer in my own opinion but its not perfect.

[Pablo_Diablo]

Sunnyjohn ok so they have a contract working for Ryanair through Crewlink but still have more or less the same terms as the others, if not Crewlink would find it very difficult retaining any cabincrew working for them. The reality on the line is the same.

[aerobat]

Truckflyer
The Ryanair contract pilots are not self employed. They are employees of a Ltd company that then supplies it's services to Ryanair. It may look like the same thing but they are not self employed and that is how Ryanair gets around it,

[SD.]

Umbrella company, sole-trader or limited company amount to the same thing.

Disguised employment.

[truckflyer]

Aerobat ;

So are you saying the RYR pilots own their own LTD company, which they have employed themselves?

[aerobat]

Truckflyer, each Ltd Co has around 3 pilots as directors and as they are employees they have to pay social contributions ( National Insurance ) both as an employer and as an employee.

[truckflyer]

So it is an artificial made up company created solely for tax evasion by Ryanair and the recruitment agency.

As murky and twisted as it seems, it is really border line, as it is not a natural formed company, rather a company created of no own choice, but as requirement by Ryanair / crewing agency.

Am I correct to assume that if you refuse this, you will not be hired by Ryanair?

Still the Ryanair pilots, creating this company, are clearly working for only one company - which is Ryanair - sooner or later Ryanair will be found out, and they will be liable for whatever shortcomings that are there.

But knowing Ryanair, they probably have anticipated such a scenario by creating umbrella companies to protect themselves!

Mainly it is a clear failure by the pilots to unite - it becomes a bit like the prisoners dilemma - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

It would be so easy to resolve, if everybody could just agree without fear that somebody else would steal their jobs in fight for better TC's

[Pablo_Diablo]

Fascinating Truckflyer that is to me as well, a repeated prisoners dilemma where you individually are up against the company that bit by bit reduce your t and c's but it is better to accept and still do the job than to disagree which means you lose your job resulting in even less than the reduction. Individually you are screwed.

The stag hunt game http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~bskyrms/bio/papers/StagHunt.pdf would do the trick if everybody would fo for the stag instead of the hare which keeps running away so far anyway ;)

[truckflyer]

Yes interesting this one too.

There is an easy way to resolve all these issues, however what we thought was becoming our strength has become our weakness.

I do in many ways blame the EU for this too, they allowed an expansion of free movement of labour, prior to "new and poorer" countries had reach the required economical level, to be competing on a level playing field.

This link tells you everything:
List of sovereign states in Europe by GNI (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita)

Use Ireland or UK as examples, it was around £36.000 - 37.000 the GDP, compare this with all the countries within the EU / Schengen and EEA, there is a major difference between North West vs South and North West vs East!

This creates a East - West surge, which benefits companies, as now we have increased the legal work force to include people from very low income countries, who will put pressure on reducing existing conditions both with regards to monetary rewards and TC's working conditions.

We have spent decades to create improved working conditions in the west, that was not influenced by Stalin or Franco - only to now have it reduced to rubble, because it has become a paradise for companies who want to employ cheap labour.

Now don't get this post wrong, however I do believe that much of the reason for this increased degradation of the profession, is because companies know with all the supply of pilots, from various backgrounds in Europe, it will be impossible for them to unite.

Example a RyR pilot from Poland or Romania, will be making much more than expected compared to their GNP, he is much less likely to want to unite with others, as he might be fairly happy with his conditions, compared to the alternatives he might otherwise have.

It is divide and conquer, mix it up enough, to make sure the work force will never be able to agree to unite.

You have to ask questions, if the EU lobbyists was working for corporations or for the good of the people, when they allowed such fast expansion of the EU, as it coming clear in many countries, that people are not happy with the current direction the EU is taking.

Such expansion should only have been allowed, when the margins of the GNP and social conditions in the countries would have become comparatively equal, upwards, instead of the current trend, where the wealthier countries are being dragged downwards, back in time, only to benefit corporations who wants to reduce their work force costs and increase their profits.

People worked hard for decades to build up a good social economic structure, pensions, health-care etc., only for it now to be torn completely apart by greedy companies looking at every loop-hole to exploit people.

If EU wanted to model themselves on the USA, I would have not had a problem, because in the USA, if you work in Florida, Texas or or some other state, you will more or less make the same money for the same job.

If you are working within the EU, there should be minimal differences on pay etc., and not like today, where you can make double or trippel your local pay, just be going to another country within the EU.

Ryanair are one of many companies in the EU, who have taken advantage of this. This is the main reason the EU and Euro is not working - the catch 22 for the companies here is, that the middle class of West Europe is decreasing, less people with money to buy products, less purchase power, and eventually it will come as a sting in the tail for many companies!

Cheap, Cheap and Cheap is good, but nothing is for free, sooner or later something has to give!

Within the EU, you have some countries giving kids pilot education for free, while others spend £100.000 or more! How can you be able to compete on a level playing field with those kind of differences?

[WX Man]

There's a lot of stuff I can't understand Ryanair getting away with (charging for online check in? Do I have an option?) But what really beggars belief is that self employed 'employees' are told which firm of accountants to use.

If I worked for RYR and they insisted I was 'self employed', I'd want to set myself up as a Cayman Islands based company, paid into a Leichstenstein bank account with accountants based in Dubai administering my day to day affairs and my Channel Islands based pension.

[felixthecat]

The UK government is on a witch hunt for tax evasion at the moment due to the coffers being nearly empty. I wonder how long it will be before they catch on to whats happening within FR. They already know…its just a matter of time before they do something I feel.

[Al Murdoch]

They definitely do know.
There are other considerations though. They probably won't do anything unless Ryanair is elevated to the status of Starbucks and Amazon, in other words, it needs to become a public enemy and receive the negative attention of the likes of the Daily Mail. I'm hoping this is about to happen.

[clunk1001]

Media attention? Headlines? I have a few for you :

Outrage : An employee in a company somewhere is unhappy

Shock : Ryanair pays all legal taxes, as usual

Horror : Ryanair Pilot earns 60k but his mate in BA earns 80k

Surprise : A company puts profit before staff

Revelation : Thousands made redundant this week in the UK face financial ruin. But never mind that - A girl in Ryanair is paid the same as a nurse!


God gave you feet - use them!

Safety put at risk? Nice try..."CAA recommends all airlines are really nice to their staff to avoid certain catastrophic air disaster"

And this is not a prisoner dilemma at all, in any way shape or form - because in this game there is a :mad: door you and everyone else can simply walk through. Ryanair won't do much for its staff - but I'm sure it'll happily open that door for you to leave if you want to!

If you need help finding the door - its the same door you walked through in the first place!

[vrb03kt]

but I'm sure it'll happily open that door for you to leave if you want to!

And happily charge you a €200 administration fee for doing so. Exploitation!

You sound like the Ryanair Information Minister. No matter what way you look at it this is exploiting peoples need to work in a time of high unemployment. Why shouldn't their shoddy employment practices have a light cast on them?

As for the pilots letter, it beggars belief for airline management to say that if a pilot signs a letter highlighting what they feel is a safety issue it is "gross misconduct". This hardly promotes a just safety culture. By the same token, if I report an accidental error that I make via ASR or MOR am I potentially going to be shown the door for gross misconduct too? Maybe I'll just not bother reporting it next time so that I still have a job next week. The IAA need to take a long hard look at this bullying culture of fear Ryanair have bred within their ranks.

[felixthecat]

Does it not put safety at risk by intimidating pilots to the stage that their jobs are at risk if they speak out about what they perceive as a safety issue?

If it is not a safety issue in the end it will be pointed out by the IAA and the airline will be proven right and be seen to promote a healthy safety culture.

Threatening pilots with recrimination and a threat of loss of their jobs is hardly conducive to a healthy flight safety culture. What does the airline have to hide if indeed these pilots are wrong and talking out of their proverbial?

[clunk1001]

Raising public awareness of any airline's use (misuse?) of contractors is a good thing. And as company ethics is high on the public agenda there has never been a better time.

But, its all about perception over fact :

The contracted pilots have no pension scheme or medical insurance

I have 3 questions :

Having recently been officially confirmed publicly as the 'Highest Paid Profession' -

1. Do you think ANYONE cares about Pilot pensions?
2. Do you thing ANYONE believes a Pilot's lack of pension is a safety issue? (other than the RPG)

if a pilot signs a letter highlighting what they feel is a safety issue
Pilots waving their little 'safety' flags as a last ditch attempt for better Ts&Cs is a schoolboy tactic which most people can see through.

3. Do you think EVERYONE will question a Pilot's (all pilots) motives in future when they raise a safety concern? (legitimate or otherwise - see felixthecat's post)


So there's a confusing, uncertain and unpredictable employment situation at Ryanair
Can you tell me where there isn't a confusing, uncertain and unpredictable employment situation right now?!


PS. Thanks for my new title vrd03kt, kind of catchy. Says a lot about this thread that I side with RYR.

Note: I am in no way employed by, connected to, or affiliated with any European Airline, Irish or otherwise, and my views are entirely personal.

[Facelookbovvered]

I note your disclaimer about not in anyway being connected to any European airline, i therefore either (your choice) a) do not believe you b) your are an internet troll........

The fact you in your words side with Ryanair, means you have some form of agenda?

There is no other airline in Western Europe that generates the amount of negative press from customers, employee's/suppliers and of course the media and you must ask why? its not envy of their success

Ryanair have radically altered the way airlines do business, some good, some bad, that Ryanair are profitable is not in doubt, like wise that their safety record to date given the scope and type of airports that they operate into, with only one hull loss is impressive.

Where the questions come is mainly their aggressive business practices, both with customers and its employee's/contractors.

This is a very large publicly quoted company and whilst it is understandable that it will fight wrongfully allegations to protect its name, it seems to have taken this to a new level of late, negative comment about the "Ryanair experience " are after all far from new.

All businesses need to generate profit if they are to grow and invest, charging a premium of what a services costs to provide is your profit, but there are different types of profit, Good & Bad if you like, providing a service for a profit when the customer walks away content is a good profit, make a profit from something where the customer walks away seething with rage is a bad profit.

I can see no justification for charging a credit card fee per person per sector, go to M&S and by five pairs of shoes you don't get five lots of credit card fee's, in fact you don't get any?

Likewise charging someone £60, again per person to print a ticket to use a service that they have already bought is in anyone book exploitation of the fact that they are trapped at the airport, no ticket no fly, this at a time when many airlines are moving to phone based app's to provide this function Easyjet, Norwegian,Jet2 amongst others.

So in summary you have to ask why they persist in this way with still hidden charges, wheel chair tax, ETS (don't even think the pay any yet) the reason is clear if Ryanair advertised the true cost of their product it would not really represent value, see a fare advertised and double it is not far off the mark these days, wouldn't happen at M&S or Aldi for that matter, good profit, great bad profit, bad long term.........

[Mikehotel152]

Having recently been officially confirmed publicly as the 'Highest Paid Profession'

That 'official' statement was ridiculed and proven false.

[Deepest Norfolk]

Why, if someone agrees with Ryanair, do they have to have an agenda? Or is it just that the agenda is different from yours, and therefore, wrong?

I'm also fed up of pilots whingeing about how much they don't get paid. I for one would do what you do for what you get paid. It has to be better than working in the UK for the NHS unless you're a doctor (which I'm not) and they're another lot of whingeing, grasping, money grabbing bu**ers too!!

[Meccano]

Unfortunately,
I do have to spend time onboard Ryanair from time to time.

Never seen Safety issues though

Racedo,

The facts are in plain view. if a so called contractor gets his/hers work schedule from a company, wears an ID and/or Uniform from a company, is only allowed to work for that one company, then according to EU and thus also National legislation, you are employed by said company, nomatter what your contract, which in that case is illegal ( again always the responsability of the employer),tells you.
Brookfield and all are just smokehoods in this case.
And yes, I have spend a considerable amount of money on legal advice to obtain this info, which is absolutely correct.
Like it or not, these are the facts.

Booking through the Ryanair website is a snakepit of boobytraps for the inexperienced traveller or user.
By specifically having to navigate through insurance offerings, and specifically having to indicate you do not want this service, they knowingly increase the chances of users inadvertantly choosing insurance. same goes with the hotel, luggage, carhire and transportation offers, of which FR all gets a commission.
Asking passengers to pay an extra fee for the obligatory web check-in, which is done at your home with your computer, paper and printer, is exploiting. no other way of putting it.

In a way, I do admire their antics, as it is very succesfull...I do hate their antics as a passenger, who, mind you still pays less than with the competition.

I am also sure that a lot of crew for Ryanair are happy with their current situation. Good for them, but the fact remains that Contracting pilots for airlines do not exist according to EU legislation, of which Ireland is a member state.

Now Racedo, if you are flightcrew, you would better support our profession by actively fighting against the downward spiral our profession is going.


So no legal, taxation, design or business qualifications then and claiming "I am a Passenger" is a bit more than that.

Nice try but claiming like Rafa Benitez that something is a fact, doesn't make it so.

Racedo, the corollary of your argument is - are you a Judge? Tax Accountant? Business Law Expert?
Are you all three?
Maybe you are no more qualified to dismiss his points than Despegue is to make them!

I'm not a Farmer - but I know a Pig when I see one.

[Pablo_Diablo]

So some of the critique here lately in the media is unjustified and everyone should just get on with it and if you don't like it leave.

Personally i find this view difficult to understand but in some cases then i would say you are probably right, it is better to just leave or get on with it or at least raise them internally to be dealt with instead of becoming someone that see a need to make a thing or two publicly about things. In some cases however i don't think is even possible to resolve things internally since the company are the ones that put you in the situation in the first place.

In Ryanair self-employed pilots used to have no choice to get a job if they were not 'willing' to sign a contract having to join one of a number of limited companies prepared by a set of accountants. By doing that they become a director of the company and had to use the services of these 'approved accountants' charging the pilot around 4% of their gross annual income. This rate was not negotiable nor was the setup so if you didn't like it you couldn't work as a pilot for the company. For some of these limited companies this meant the accountancy charge could be as high as 13.000€ per annum for handling expenses, tax and payroll and some other services. Individually figures around 2000€-4500€ were common for the director which is in the end of the day a pilot working for the company (an employee also it could turn out). It should be added also that if the pilot asked a accountant outside the ones you needed to use, the same service would typically cost a third to half of what the pilot needed to pay to get 'employment.'

Jobs nowadays are scarce and pilot jobs notoriously difficult to get close to home even on the same continent so if this situation does not constitute a prisoners dilemma then frankly i dont know what is since you have no way of changing this into something more appropriate if you want to get a job and do what you are trained to do. Without any representation it becomes a game where you have little to no power to highlight issues such as safety since the theats of punishment and oppression is all apparent and on occasion also very clearly seen via memo's such as the latest response to a safety petition by the Chief Pilot.

Additionally the pilots used to have or some no doubt still do a liability clause where the pilot "in the performance of his or her duties" were or still are financially responsible for all liability incurred with no upper limit including omission. Getting insurance would make the whole employment uneconomical since the rate for putting it in place astronomical.

I doubt many think this is the way it should be in any profession. So next time we hear arguments like; just leave, stop whining and get out i can't help to think that it is exactly that has led this profession into what it is today.

Or is this just me whining?

[felixthecat]

Clunk1001
You say
Pilots waving their little 'safety' flags as a last ditch attempt for better Ts&Cs is a schoolboy tactic which most people can see through.

So why does the company have such a problem with the pilots doing so if it will be seen by the public as merely a money motivated tactic? Surely the company would welcome the scorn and ridicule it would bring on the pilots and enable them to further erode the pilots package. The pilots winging would play straight into the companies hands…that is unless there was an anterior motive on the companies behalf and a need to keep things under cover? It raises questions in my head….you don't hide unless you need to.

Deepest Norfolk
Why are you on a professional pilots network if
a) You don't like to hear pilots winging and
b) Your not in the industry

Im not on the NHS equivalent of PPrune.

Your statement
'm also fed up of pilots whingeing about how much they don't get paid. I for one would do what you do for what you get paid. It has to be better than working in the UK for the NHS unless you're a doctor (which I'm not) and they're another lot of whingeing, grasping, money grabbing bu**ers too!!
smacks of you
a)whinging about the pay that you don't get in the NHS compared to the doctors
b)you don't have to be here listening to the 'pilots whinging'
c)your obviously not happy in your job in the NHS pay wise, why whinge about it to pilots.
d)please feel free to go and pay £70-75,000 for your training with no guarantee of a job, then spend several years if your lucky as a flight instructor then pay a further £20,000 for a type rating, then you too can whinge when your terms are eroded year on year.

I am guessing your training was paid for by the government? :ok:

[truckflyer]

No Pablo, you have many valid points!

And clunk1001, you really did not understand the prisoners dilemma game theory, did you? Chump!

Either Clunk is a troll, or the incarnation of MOL!

As this is the attitude, you not happy with the setup, shut up and walk out the door, there is another gnom ready with £30.000 for another TR anyway!

So the game is for all to say STOP, everybody wins, however the risk is of course the rats hiding below the sewer will jump up and try to steal these jobs!

But if everybody for once could see the BIG picture, and just for once unite, in one force, only than change can happen. I doubt enough are willing to move out of their comfort zone, it's strange, it seems after several revolutions, people have been whipped into submission!

Clunk should read the recent article in Air International, about pilot debts / commuting - and safety issues - EASA don't give a damn, until we have our own Colgan hole in the ground, are we so complacent, that this is what it will take before change will happen?

[b.a. Baracus]

The red tops would lap that up - 'Pilots face the axe for raising safety concerns'

Interesting article here:

Flying high Ryanair posts 13% rise in annual profits but new row with pilots looms | This is Money (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2327464/Flying-high-Ryanair-posts-13-rise-annual-profits-new-row-pilots-looms.html)

[clunk1001]

No I'm not a troll. No I don't work for (or with) any European airline. No I don't have an agenda.

I think RYR have plenty of criticism due them, in all areas of their business. But the two articles linked in this thread have the opposite effect (on me anyway).

The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?

And the RPG article actually makes the RPG look bad for raising it as a safety issue. A link with commuting and safety is fair enough (I've already read the articles thanks TruckFlyer), but that's not what's in the article - its about money - pensions, medicals, uniforms and sick pay. And as 5/4 is as about as good as it gets, commuting isnt mentioned in the article. Again, contracting gets much worse outside aviation - "how about you put aside 15% of your salary for sick pay like everyone else does, instead of that flash car or big watch?" is what people will say.

My point is that whilst people may have a good cause - they are not making a good case.


And on that subject, Truckflyer, great argument by the way, the old "well you're a chump" rationale. Prisoner's Dilemma involves participants being given limited choices, in complete isolation. Wheras in RYR the RPG is specifically there to facilitate communication between Pilots, irrespective of its recognition by RYR, so there really is no similarity to Prisoner Dilemma.
Happy to discuss, if you want to give a name to your version, which involves people with multiple choices able to openly communicate, but choose not to. A name might be Pilot's Dilemma.

[truckflyer]

RyR are not the worst of these types of companies in Europe / EASA, there are companies that have much worse conditions than RyR have, and where the same safety issues apply.

There is some good reports here: More CAPA Resources | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/reports/)

Which shows a concerning trend.

Chunk, here is the scenario, your daughter is flying from Dublin to Rome tomorrow, however the FO for the flight is feeling ill.

So analyse the dilemma:
1. He can choose to call in sick, and not get paid.

The company will investigate him to check if he was really ill. Even nothing found, it might give negative influence on his future career.

2. He can choose to self-medicate / or do nothing, and go to work, because he needs the money to support his debts, family and kids.

3. He can call his company, and complain - and most likely get a reprimand / called in for tea and biscuits.

4. He can pretend he overslept / he did not hear the alarm, and see if the company will take any action against him.

Most people who have real "illness" of some kind, does not just have it one day off, normally will be 2-3 days and upwards, depending what the issue is.

Now of course, 99% of the pilots, will most likely choose option number 2!

Chunk, are you happy to let your daughter go on that flight, knowing that this happen?

It is easy to be self-serving, and argument that the FO should know better etc., however the day it happens, and **** hits the fan, it will be to late to complain, knowing we could have done something to improve conditions.

It is general culture in EASA Lo Co, to take calculated risks, the thought is, not a problem, we have 2 pilots, so even if something happens to one of them, there is a second one there to save the day!

But one day, as we know Murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong!
And let's hope you don't come back on these forums complaining and crying than Chunk, when you discover that your arguments and assumptions was WJONG! :rolleyes:

[clunk1001]

Truckflyer, I don't think the article mentioned being penalised career-wise for not turning up for work, it said they didn't get paid. Just like the millions of contractors everywhere that simply budget for the fact they don't get sick pay.

So why would anyone reading the article care?

I agree there is an issue, there is still a downward trend in Ts&Cs. But these articles won't convince anyone.

[truckflyer]

Of course you could budget for it, if you self-employed, you should get paid more than the normal employee, just for that reason, to budget for various costs.
It is supposed to be a tax benefit for RyR, as they save lots of money on various contributions they need to pay for an employee, however with ALL these Lo Co companies, the pay is the same as if you are employed, so that takes away any advantage to be self-employed.

Secondly a pilot can not choose to work for one company one month, and next another company, that is one of the basic criteria s to be self-employed. You are trained with one companies SOP's and are obliged by contract to only work for them!

Anyway, have a look at the Dutch tv program, 2 parts was made!

There is a bully culture in these companies, to either do what you are told, or leave! There is no 2 way communication, it is Der Fuhrer way or No Way!

I thought we ended that in 1945, it seems not! :D

[Mr Angry from Purley]

clunk
[QUOTE]The original Flight Attendant article looks like RYR bashing for the sake of it. £1,800 for training and then paid £13 per hour? That's actually pretty good as a starting salary - University graduates these days can spent £18,000 on their degree and work for less. So what's the point of the article? is it how well paid RYR flight attendants are with only minimal investment?[quote]

My reading is that most other airlines dont charge Cabin Crew or their training, uniform, offer a basic wage, sick pay et whereas FR sorry crewlink offer SFA.
Not sure if thats FR bashing just a statement of where the Cabin Crew are.
I recently recall a bad day at my airport with snow, the likes of Monarch, Thomson etc were giving it a go. FR cancelled their flights. Someone at work said this was because the local bus company had also cancelled their services thus making it difficult for FR crew to get to work, whereas the likes of Mon/Thom CC can afford a car.... There was also a recent case where FR re-based their CC in an Italian airport with 1? days notice because their base had been closed to commercial traffic because of the conflict in a North African country. The flights were moved to an airport 90 mins away by road. I believe the crew were left to their own devices, whereas any other airline would have assisted them. I may be wrong sure someone will correct me if so.
FR are no different to many airlines, they could be a great employer, profits vv people

[Lord Spandex Masher]

£13 per flying hour. Less than a grand a month before tax is decent?

[clunk1001]

'Highest Paid Profession'

That 'official' statement was ridiculed and proven false.


MikeHotel152 - ridiculed and proven false by whom? You and Pprune?

...or can you point me in the direction of an official recantation?


As I said perception over fact. Readers of Pprune are not the ones that need to be convinced. The fact remains that 'Highest Paid Profession' is the general perception of the Pilot profession.


PS. I am being deliberately argumentative - I'm trying to see things from a non-pilot point of view, and the current arguments just don't present a good enough case. It's like reading those articles about GPs demanding more and more pay rises on top of their 100k+ base salary, its more likely to alienate support for their cause.

[racedo]

Racedo, the corollary of your argument is - are you a Judge? Tax Accountant? Business Law Expert?
Are you all three?
Maybe you are no more qualified to dismiss his points than Despegue is to make them!

I'm not a Farmer - but I know a Pig when I see one.

I have never claimed to be any of the above but then again have never claimed to know the law on employment, taxation and business enough to state Guilt of anybody.

As for claiming you know a PIG................you could not identify every PIG, you could identify a few of the species which makes your claim that you know them a bit hollow.

[Whiskey Bravo]

Clunk - just skimming this one, suggesting that pilots are the highest paid profession and then mentioning GP's on 100k is laughable. I doubt there are many viewers of this thread making 100k and I know plenty of GP's and other doctors that aren't either! Back to the Daily Mail I think.

I'm sure there are plenty at RYR who are happy with their lot, for a multitude of reasons. Probably those who can afford to feed and house themselves (and families) and for whatever reason not have to worry unduly about not working and not getting paid. However, when people have to make a choice of going to work performing sub-optimally and not getting paid, it would appear that there is a conflict.

Whether RYR contracts are legal or not legal is one very complex debate, but they would seem to be in the favour of the employer, not the employee and apparently not optional - therefore some doubt springs to mind immediately.

If RYR offered those they recruited to choose between a permanent, statutory benefits contract at pay rate X and a contract position at pay rate Y then the issued would be closed.

[clunk1001]

Syntax error - my source is The Office for National Statistics, 2013. Also some interesting data here from 2012: Real wages up 62% on average over the past 25 years. Read more... (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/earnings-in-the-uk-over-the-past-25-years/2012/rpt-earnings-in-the-uk-over-the-past-25-years.html)

Pilots are in the highest paid occupation and have been for 25 years. FACT. At least that's what we're all told! There's no use denying it Syntax. :). There was a discussion on it a few months ago in Pprune, an article from the Gardian I think.


Whiskey Bravo, GP average salary 103,000 in 2011. Source : Office for National Statistics. Here's one of many articles from a few years ago...Are GPs on £100,000 underpaid? | Money | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/blog/2011/may/28/gps-underpaid)



"Back to the daily mail" :ok:

You guys are cleary too busy earning the big bucks to read anything other than Pprune :}

[Hangar6]

Have to say the this pay topic and t and c topic splits me in two

When I am a pax I want my crew to be well rested happy with their pay high morale and content

When I am not a pax I just get jealous if they earn more that me ......

It's an odd one
But when I am in a plane at 30k feet you can name your price , just get me home safely I do not even care if you are on time

Some airlines just seem to push too hard on crew costs and operational efficiencies which is a worry ....

[felixthecat]

This isn't about just the pay, its more abut the fear factor and the inability to express concern about safety without the fear of reprisal from the company management.

I would hope the passengers care about safety, since it is ultimately their own skin we are talking about.

Pilots should not be threatened with reprisals for speaking up about something they see as safety related. It is the regulator that decides if it is warranted or not, not the company, and the pilots should not be threatened for bringing their concerns to light.

[clunk1001]

felixthecat - Yes crew should be allowed to speak up about safety. But this current media attention isn't about safety, is it?

The perception is that Pilots dont like the contracts and are trying to use safety as leverage to improve their Ts&Cs.

This perception that Pilots would use safety as a bargaining chip is far more dangerous than any 'zero hour contract' - if Pilots think not having a pension/uniform/medical is a safety issue, then who's going to take them seriously in future when they need to raise a real safety issue?

RYR management have a history of heavy handedness, but I think MOL is spot on here - safety isnt a bargaining chip, and anyone who thinks it is should not be flying a plane.

Whether this perception is spin from RYR, or whether its just a badly handled attempt at unity from the RPG is irrelevant...perception over fact.


...of course, this is all yesterdays news now.

[MANTHRUST]

Clunk
Have we learnt anything from the Colgon crash?
Yes we have.
Your attempts to undermine the FR pilots valid concerns are, given your lack of agenda, rather baffling.

[clunk1001]

Have we learnt anything from the Colgon crash?

If Pilots are turning up for work when they're sick because they need the money to :

(a) pay for a type rating they couldn't afford,
(b) pay for a Breitling they couldn't afford, or
(c) in the case of Captains, pay for an ex-wife they couldn't afford

Then no, you are right MANTHRUST, we haven't learnt anything.

If Pilots turn up for duty sick because of company culture - that would be different. But, again that is not what the perception is....at the moment.

[felixthecat]

If it is just perception as you say then why doesn't the company allow the pilots to make their point and have it disproved. This would give the company far more credibility than threatening them giving the perception that the company has something to hide.

If the safety culture in a company prevents pilots from calling sick for fear of reprimand then there is something wrong with that companies safety culture. Having read the Colgon crash I have yet to find any reference to Breitlings and the like…that smacks of smoke and mirrors….:ok: I have however read about pilots having to claim milk tokens and work second jobs because their salaries are so low that was how they had to survive.

[wiggy]

(c) in the case of Captains, pay for an ex-wife they couldn't afford


:confused: So are you saying it's Ok for F/O's to have a wife they can't afford, or Captain's to have husbands they can' afford????

I sense an agenda, or at the very least an attempt at stereotyping.

[Facelookbovvered]

I have no problem with you playing devils advocate in this debate.

The big point your missing here is its not about the money.

Most Captains flying for the big operators will make between €/£80K-€/£120K a year which is clearly very good money.

The problem is the fear culture that is creeping in with some airlines, more on that in a minute, lets go back to your GP argument, many who do earn similar amount of money.

can you imagine what would happen if the Government said, right all new GP from tomorrow, will only be paid when they work? also from tomorrow all GP will have to fund up front the cost of training them to be GP's, and by the way also from tomorrow we have the right to send to work in any practice in Europe and you get there on your days off, sort your own transport and hotel.

Lets not stop at GP's, we have branded the Nurse union as bunch of whinging lazy over paid prima donna's dressed up in strippers kit and we are going to charge for nurse training and uniform, we are also only going pay you when are dispensing pills or putting your finger up someones arse and forget pensions paid leave or sick pay and if you even think of going to the press to say that these are slave terms and condition that put patient's lives at risk then that will be committing an act of gross misconduct and you will face dismissal, if you don't like it you can leave and get a job with another NHS!

Clunk

You also sate that you'd be happy to do what we do for the money, well why don't you? you don't need to be a rocket scientist a reasonable level of educations is all thats required, you will need to put your life and family on hold for around 3-5 years, oh nearly forgot you'll need to fund up front €/£100k for your flying training through to IR/MCC and then another €/£28k to pay for your type rating, after which you'll have work for free until you don't need a safety pilot on the jump seat, then next to nothing for the 80-100 flights (with fare paying passengers board) during you line training. Whilst all this training has been going on you not worked at any thing else for 3-5 years zero income, but you have had to feed yourself/family.

Now clunk, it seems to me that in addition to being troll you have green eyes and are politically somewhere left of centre and see this as a ridiculous amount of money to pay some one to fly around in Ray Bans with a Rolex on one arm and trolly dolly on the other and a BMW in the pilots car park (we don't get a car park pass either!!)

So go on grow some balls and become a pilot or Doctor the worlds your oyster and it beats getting off on Pprune.........I'd best go wash the Porsche now, sorry meant the Porch

[felixthecat]

FaceLookbovverd….I agree with what you say, just the last bit about working in NHS and doing what we do for the money etc was from DeepestNorfolk…..

[clunk1001]

Felixthecat -
you'll find there are no similarities at all between the two, not just inrelation to Breitling watches - and that's my point - this move by the RPG looks like a ploy to improve Ts&Cs, and if it is, then any reference tosafety/previous disasters is just 'smoke and mirrors'.

My understanding is that RYR pay relatively well, and generally have a stable(ish) 5/4, 5/3 roster. Why would you mention Milk Tokens? Yes it happens,but at RYR? I doubt it - very happy for you to prove otherwise.


Wiggy -
Stereotyping is fundamentally important with media attention. The publicview of the 'stereotypical airline pilot' is that they earn a lot of money and have great benefits. How will the public react to suggestions Pilots are usingsafety as a means of getting even better benefits? Not well, and I wonder whether that is why RYR have reacted as they have - it turns the media attention around and suggests that the 'highest paid occupation' Pilots are the bad guys.


Facelookbovvered -

You are right - I am playing devils advocate.

I did fund my training, some years ago now - but the grass is not always greener. So I'll be staying where I am. Still have my CPL/ME/IR and fly for fun.

I think I've got a good handle on the reality of Pilot Ts&Cs. And I think that Pilots are underpaid and more importantly undervalued. So you've got me wrong there.

I'm not missing the point about 'Fear Culture' but the article specifically quotes a Pilot as saying "If you are not going to get paid..." when talking about the 'fear culture'. So he's made it about money.


If 'Fear Culture' is the issue - then why are we reading about uniforms, pensions, medical cover, contracts etc in relation to Safety?

[Meccano]

Racedo: "I have never claimed to be any of the above but then again have never claimed to know the law on employment, taxation and business enough to state Guilt of anybody."

So what's your point then? Just more trolling?

Racedo; As for claiming you know a PIG................you could not identify every PIG, you could identify a few of the species which makes your claim that you know them a bit hollow."

If it oinks like a pig, and stinks like a pig - its a pig.
I'll leave the identification of the 'species' to you.
Are you a Farmer too?

[felixthecat]

You were referring to the Colgon crash and trying to make a link between that and seemingly overpaid pilots who wear Breitling watches and have spent all their money on ex-wives and type ratings they can't afford. My point was there was no such link in the Colgon report and indeed there are more links to the pilots being poorly paid and tired from working extra hours to make ends meet. I made no such reference to milk tokens in FR. The link between Colgon and overpaid pilots was the perception you engendered and it is false, indeed the FO was earning less than $20000 and was unable to afford accommodation near the airport and had to make a long commute, as indeed did the Capt.

You carefully didn't address my question as to why the company would threaten pilots with reprisals if the pilots claims are groundless. As I said previously what are they hiding if indeed the pilots are indeed just overpaid wingers, it would play straight into the companies hands would it not? :ok:

If the pilots who ultimately are at the front end of the safety chain believe there is a problem then let the regulators decide if it holds water, not the company.

[16024]

Amazingly, I found myself in sympathy with Clunk for the first time when Facelookbovvered accused him of being left of centre. I take that position myself, particularly with respect of protecting the little guy at the coal face from "The Man". I don't expect anyone else to share my views on that matter.

There has been a lot of debate recently on at least two other threads criticising posters for not standing by thier opinions, and maybe going to court with substantiated facts. I don't want to add to that debate except to say if the employer, or contract provider feels they are being unjustly maligned, they should have nothing to fear by doing the same.

And finally,

MOL is spot on here - safety isnt a bargaining chip

Well that would work both ways wouldn't it?

[clunk1001]

Felix... you've misinterpreted what I'm saying (or I've said it badly).
Colgan was mentioned by another poster -
Have we learnt anything from the Colgon crash?

I thought the comparison to that incident was inappropriate, there is no similarity, and I was trying to (light-heartedly) dismiss the suggestion of a similarity by highlighting that if RYR pilots are stressed about debt to the extent that they turn up for work sick, then its possibly for one of the reasons I stated. Sorry if that wasnt clear.

[clunk1001]

Syntax- thanks for your views on what you think I don't understand, if I can correct a few of them -

1. You suggest I don't understand contracts. I've been running a business for many years, and am probably more versed than most on here about the legalities and rights involved in both employment contracts and contracts of service provision - that's what I do, and have done for about 20 years, with companies bigger than RYR, every day, and now I'm actually quite good at it. Hence my unusually active participation in this thread...although you do make it quite difficult sometimes...:ok:

2. You suggest I believe any statistic. But I've repeatedly stated it is all about "perception over fact". The figures from the NAO are distorted (or just garbage) - and I think that is one thing everyone on this forum would agree on. But whether you or I believe them or not is of no consequence - they are 'official' figures from the UK NAO. You can't dismiss them just because you don't like them.


I'm still looking for someone else's (sensible, on topic) view on the RPG letter to IAA though.....any takers...?

[felixthecat]

I accept that there may have been some misinterpretation between us over the Colgon crash. I am a professional pilot of many years, and have been at the coal face in FR in the past and felt the pressure and conflict between safety and profit. There is far more than uniforms and pensions at stake.

Safety and profit do not make good bedfellows, like oil and water they do not mix well, hence the need for independent arbitration by the IAA. There will always be a risk in aviation, it is the nature of the beast but as a pilot I manage it and should not be afraid to raise my voice over safety matters for concern over my job. Indeed a company that truly recognises safety as its number 1 priority, as opposed to just a punch line to be toted as required would welcome the input from the people at the coal face operating their business model as opposed to shooting them down.

[racedo]

If it oinks like a pig, and stinks like a pig - its a pig.
I'll leave the identification of the 'species' to you.
Are you a Farmer too?

You seem to want to troll this tread for some reason............

[Facelookbovvered]

You make an interesting point re the politics' and "left of centre" but the irony of this is that by pursuing a development of pilots paying up front for everything increasingly excludes people from "average" income family backgrounds ever becoming pilots, because this development together with P2F we are increasingly seeing people from the bank of Mum & Dad, in other words if you or your family isn't monied forget it, when was the last time you saw an Asian or Black pilot cadet, its becoming more and more a white elite which is turning the clock back 30 years on the progress made on merit rather than money or family post RAF

[16024]

You are correct, of course. In this instance I'm concentrating less on the ills of capitalism than the ways of improving the industry we're in. FR have gained at our loss in recent years (as have other surviving carriers) as a steady stream of failed airlines has provided cheap and desperate labour (a safety issue?).
If and when the Market softens, the only people who would go there might be those who couldn't go anywhere else (safety? I dunno, what do you reckon?).
Unless...the Ts&Cs improve.
And that's where we came in, I think.

[no sponsor]

I joined my current airline with a few ex-Ryanair guys. The stories they tell me of the intimidation if they go sick and the general bullying tactics need to be heard to be believed. I would never travel on Ryanair ever again; in my opinion it is a culture which places profit and revenue above all else.

[RAT 5]

I've not read the whole thread, but some of the early comments; so I apoligise if this question has been answered.

RYR claim pilots are not employees; they are self-employed. Any complaints should be made to BRK. So now there are 2 supposed buffers between the pilot and RYR; one is the pilot's LTD company and the 2nd is BRK who contract that LTD company to provide a pilot who is then shuffled onto RYR. So how can RYR then claim to be able to dismiss you for gross misconduct if you make a 'freedom of speech' allegation? They could terminate the contract with BRK for your services, but to suggest that they can dismiss you directly seems to be outside the industrial relationship which is in place. Please correct me if wrong.

[Safety Concerns]

fact is ryanair aren't doing anything wrong. I suppose they do push business boundaries and that seems to upset people.

I think the real answer to this lies not with ryanair but whether society really does support out and out capitalism?

answer that one and then you know how to solve the rest

[Bengerman]

fact is ryanair aren't doing anything wrong

Possibly the most myopic post ever.

[kungfu panda]

"Push Business Boundaries"... What a lot of claptrap..What they do is operate outside the spirit of the law especially with regard to Taxation and employment. They even challenge the laws on Passenger rights which have only come about because of their bad behavior toward customers. They create virtual riots caused directly by their policies. Everybody else is to blame except MOL.As soon as somebody puts something on this site that they don't like they have their Lawyers onto it straight away. A little intimidation and suddenly a thread disappears.

[Superpilot]

Safety Concerns is spot on. Ryanair operate within the true spirit of capitalism and ultimately that is what we have chosen to be ruled by. Capitalism provides opportunity to those who are capable of exploiting it (supply vs demand) and does not guarantee that the exploiters will operate justly or within the law. The law as we have seen in recent years is too weak to deal with exploitation on this scale.

[Zipster]

I think it also could be a case sometimes where the law haven't even been used, and before you have a judgement it is to early to tell what is and what is not.

[dfspilot]

Let's call a spade a spade, Ryanair but more specifically MOL don't care about its
Staff ,Pax or even it's junior and senior management. Fear of reprisal is the order of the day. Remember MOL told Tony O Reilly to close Ryanair when he was but a shopkeeper. Chickens come home to roost, as Southwest would say
"what comes around goes around".:eek:

[Heathrow Harry]

No-one has to work for them

No-one has to fly with them

after all these years if you don't know what you are letting yourself in for at Ryanair you must blind, deaf, friendless and stupid

You must be crazy if you think they will change their modus operandi just for you either as crew or as a passenger

[16024]

after all these years if you don't know what you are letting yourself in for at Ryanair you must blind, deaf, friendless and stupid

..Or unfortunate and unemployed.

Use that argument for PPI "victims", not professional flight crew.

[Heathrow Harry]

if you are unfortunate enough to be unemployed and you decide to go to work for Ryanair then it's a bit much to complain once you are there IMHO

You have to live with the consequences of your decision - and if it becomes too much to bear then you may have to consider another job or becoming unemployed again

[Zipster]

Harry is setting the standard extremely low.

[16024]

Straight. And he is unable to tell the difference between living with the consequences of one's decisions, and living with the consequences of someone else's. And while HH's HO is that we should quit, give up, bend over, suck it up, deal with it, hand it over, eat :mad: and die etc. Instead we will continue to pull his weight for him.....

[Heathrow Harry]

gentlemen if you don't like the T&C at Ryanair why work for them?

I wouldn't unless there is no alternative nor would I suggest to any of my mates that they do likewise

I try and avoid flying with them if I can however cheap they are

however freedom includes the freedom to take the consequences - if you sign up to work for them you KNOW what will happen - so don't come moaning on here - get another job as they ain't going to change just for you (or I or the hundreds of others who don't like their ways)

[Torque Tonight]

Aaah, there's a little gem buried inside all the guff:

I wouldn't unless there is no alternative

Given the state of the employment market, that probably covers 99% of those who have joined the company in the last decade.

Everyone surely knows the nature of the beast when the sign up, but do you not think it reasonable to aspire to negotiate improved Ts&Cs once inside. If you don't think it reasonable then your Ts&Cs will probably look a lot like Ryanair's in the not to distant future.

[1000ft Cruiser]

Heathrow Harry - You wonder why people work for them and suggest they get a job somewhere else.

Why work for them? Because I like eating food. I also like living between some walls and a roof. I also have a 120,000 euro of debts from flying lessons I need to clear. I'd say the average cadet leaving flying school needs around 2,500 to 3,000 euro a month AFTER TAX to maintain an adequate lifestyle (without kids to support).

So why don't I go work for someone else? How about McDonalds? Burger King perhaps? In case you hadn't noticed airline CEOs aren't exactly kicking pilots front doors down in the middle of the night, begging us to come and work for them. Trust me, most Ryanair pilots would LOVE nothing more than to go and work for BA, Virgin, Thomson, Shamrock, Monarch. Sadly those jobs are like rocking horse :mad: these days. The only options going are the desert or the far East. 18 month waits for an interview with EK aren't unheard of, then if you pass it could be another year before you get a start date. I don't know as much about QR and the unspoken one but they all have their own issues.

[SD.]

Why work for them? Because I like eating food. I also like living between some walls and a roof. I also have a 120,000 euro of debts from flying lessons I need to clear. I'd say the average cadet leaving flying school needs around 2,500 to 3,000 euro a month AFTER TAX to maintain an adequate lifestyle (without kids to support).

Here lies the problem, they know most cadets are up to the eye balls in debt and will not only bend over, they'll also pull down their pants. The same can be said about DEC recruitment, dating all the way back to when the Serbs came over. Varig, bmi baby, globespan, malev all supplied unemployed skippers. They are the parasitic vermin of the industry, feeding off the desperate.

[Northern Monkey]

I also have a 120,000 euro of debts from flying lessons I need to clear.

This argument is poor. You must have known before you took on that level of debt that there were good odds that you would end up flying for Ryanair, and the terms and conditions you were likely to receive were poor. Either that or you just didn't do your research properly.

Dozens of new cadets start at flying school each month and even a cursory glance at PPRuNe reveals the nature of what awaits them at the end of training.

Why did you still do it? Because you desperately wanted to be a pilot! So desperate that Ryanair are now exploiting you.... and so the cycle goes on.

[Zipster]

No you are wrong Harry, you don't know what it is like until you see it for yourself.

[Heathrow Harry]

I agree that people may HAVE to work for Ryanair and count my blessings that (so far) it's not something I have had to consider

If I did then I'm afraid I would grin & bear it whilst looking for something better - moaning when you have no chance of changing matters is truly a waste of valuable time and energy

Given that any google search on Ryanair (never mind the pages of anti-O'Leary rants on here) brings up all the horror stories you could wish for I really can't buy the " I never knew what it was going to be like" argument

[scotbill]

Does anyone know what persuaded the BBC to give an hour of free uncritical publicity to Ryanair and Easyjet last night?

[Speed of Sound]

Apparently there is a current initiative at the BBC to make business reporting more interesting and accessible to its viewers/listeners. :*

[Torque Tonight]

HH, where Ryanair's terms and conditions go yours will surely follow. Perhaps you should be a little more supportive of those who are trying to improve things.

You criticise the pilot group for trying to take a stand and your message seems to be that they should just suck it up and accept declining conditions. I suspect if they did just that, you would criticising them for not fighting their corner. Your input to this debate is pretty pointless.:D

[JB007]

‘Plane Speaking: The Wit and Wisdom of Michael O'Leary’ by Paul Kilduff.

On his popularity: "I don't give a ***** if no-one likes me. I am not a cloud bunny, I am not an aerosexual. I don't like aeroplanes. I never wanted to be a pilot like those other platoons of goons who populate the airline industry."

Good luck guys!

[kungfu panda]

Well Cathay cabin crew as part of their action to improve conditions, removed smiles...I think Ryanair Pilots should go public with the fact that until Ryanair agree to a Union negotiated contract for all Pilots then they will remove their effort to improve upon a Boeing Landing.

[Binder]

Scotbill

Probably something to do with "Airport Live" giving a showcase to BA.

Can't imagine MOL would let that pass without some free publicity in return.