Long-haul crew composition

[7Q Off]

Just curious on long-haul flying.

My Airline Fly with 1 Captain, and 2 or 3 FO.

But I know LAN airlines for example, fly long-hawl with 2 captains and 1 FO, or 2 Captains and 2 FO.

How does Lufthansa, British, Iberia, Turkish Airlines, American, or your airline fly??

Pros and Cons about 2 Captains in a flight deck???

[7Q Off]

here we used to have very experienced FO on long hawl fleets, like in the US. The average upgrade time to captain was 13 plus years so we used to have 2 or 3 6000 hs total time FO on each flight (with 2000/3000 hs on jet as SIC on narrowbody).

But now the upgrade time was reduced to 4 o 5 years so the average FO total time is not what it used to be. Some flights can be cruising with 2 2000 TT FO. Both have ATP, both have PIC rating on type but .....

Because of this, my company and unions are starting to think about changing the 1 Capt on long haul policy. There is lot of controversy about this. Some old captains don't want the change, some old don't care, most juniors captains are more open to this change. I recognice ego is a big issue here.

The company doesn't want it because of money, but I think they recognize the problem.

I am trying to find some feedback, opinions, pros, cons, personal experiences, etc. I don't have a formal opinion about the possible change. I agree that we have low experience on most FO in general but having 2 captains could be a problem too.

[filejw]

Delta....8 to 11:59 hrs ....1 capt 2 FO......over 12 hours ....2 capt ...2 FO

[Denti]

In my outfit we don't fly sectors that require an augmented crew by law and technically we do no augment as there is no crew bunk on board, just a seat in business class with a privacy curtain around it. That is required for flights with 4500NM or more great circle distance between departure or arrival, less if its a two sector duty. Crew composition is one captain, one senior FO (cruise captain) and one normal FO. The SFO is trained to take over as captain above FL200, but can do landings only from the right side if that is required for recency. Which can be a real issue as all of them fly MFF short and long haul and landing recency is separate for each type.

[Flytdeck]

Canadian Aircraft: 1 Captain, 1 or 2 F/O, 1 relief pilot (type rated by only flies aircraft from either left or right seat ABOVE 10,000'.

Qatar Aircraft: 1 Captain, 2 F/Os OR 2 Captain, 2 F/Os. Captains can be used as F/Os as all are right seat qualified (qualified does NOT necessarily mean COMPETENT :)).

[fantom]

My outfit: 1 SFO and a dog.

I'm the dog.

[Fbwdude]

In Brazil up to 9:30 FT 1capt 1 fo, 12:00 FT 2capt 1 fo and 15:00 FT 2 capt 2 fo.ULH is not possible under current regulation( was written 30 years ago).
Best regards to you all.

[Tankengine]

Qantas runs 1 Capt, 1 F/O and 1 or 2 S/Os ( cruise F/Os)

And management still thinks we are too expensive!:ugh:

[7Q Off]

As I remember here is

2 pilots up to 8 hs
3 pilots from 8 up to 13 hs
4 pilots from 13 hs to 17 hs

on 3 pilots 2 must have left type, or a full type
on 4 pilots 2 must have a full type.

Here most FO have full type on the aircraft so one the cap leaves to rest, 1 is allways typed on the left side.

For you guys that fly 2 captains, how you manage ego? Who is active captain and who is the relief captain? One fly the way up and the other fly the way down???

[ETOPS]

Only our longest sectors are 4 crew - 2 Capts and 2 Co-pilots. Outbound the lead Capt and P2 perform both the take-off and landing with relief Capt and his/her P2 taking over during lead crews break. Return sector is usually a reversal of roles. Have to say never seen any ego problems in 15 years of ultra Longhaul.

[7Q Off]

TKS ETOPS. The issue here is that we are used to 1 capt, and they want to change to 2 captains. This transition will be the problem between old and new if they finally change the crew composition. I guess if they decide to change, our company will need to write very clear who will be active captain and who will be relief captain, so roles are very clear so ego will not be a problem. One leg for each captain is how they plan to do it. :ok:

[Arfur Dent]

2 Captains is not ideal and we don't do it regularly. One, of course, is the designated Commander for the sector and the other relieves him ie they're not in the cockpit together except for T/O and Landing. Good guys just do as suggested and keep quiet so it works fine in general.

[Fbwdude]

There is no ego issue were I fly.The captain is the senior one ,no doubt about it.
During briefing the senior capt usually asks who wants to fly/hasn't recently flown a sector and they will "share the 2 sectors" as PF/PM accordingly and at the end of the day everybody is happy.

[Flytdeck]

"at the end of the day, everyone is happy".

On a sector with four crew, at the end of the day, everyone is dead tired!

Interesting query on ego. In most cases, ego can work AGAINST a functional flight deck; check CRM training and data. On the modern airline flight deck, Captains encourage participation in the operation. This includes everyone who is sitting on the flight deck regardless of rank. A strong display of ego will normally inhibit participation.

Likely a topic for a new thread.

[LW20]

And how is decided who get's to do a landing? Always one of the Captains?

[Fbwdude]

As I wrote before during the briefing with the pilots the captain will share the sectors.Sometimes, very often indeed,neither captain acts as PF only the FO's fly .We fly around 6 to 8 sectors per month so it is easy to acommodate .By asking who hasn't flown as PF on previous flights one will decide who will be PF.
And again at end of the day everybody is happy,and btw I think a 12 hour sector is much better than 5 short sectors a day many days in a row.
Best regards .

[Flytdeck]

LW20.... In the airlines I have flown with, normally observe the Captain flying the outbound leg and the F/O the return leg. This is not in any way a rule, just a general observation.

Suspect in the two Captain, two F/O crewing operation, the return Captain would forgo the leg to be the PM. Again, general feeling on the matter and my personal preference.

If only the two of us, usually have a look at the weather and destination to make sure the F/O limits not exceeded, then ask the F/O their preference. They are a much better judge of their "comfort level" than I.

Captains have a duty not only to the safe operation of the flight, but to assist the F/O to accumulate the experience and skills to be Captains themselves. Another observation. Usually find that the fellow or lady sitting next (or behind) me teaches me just as much if not more than I teach her/him :ok:. Likely be approaching being a fairly capable airline Captain about the time I retire :sad:.

and the thread meanders on.....