New EASA licence holder / Cutting up EASA PPL?

[Odai]

Hello,

I finally received my EASA PPL(A) today, 98 days after the CAA received my application!

One thing I noticed is that the license is split into a number of pages. There are also a generous number of plastic sleeves in the wallet. Common sense would suggest that the license is meant to be cut up with a page in each sleeve.

However, there was no letter in the package suggesting that this could be done (just a note reminding me of the £191 they relieved me of, as if it didn't sting enough already :p), and I'm not in any rush to tear up a document I've gone through so much hassle of obtaining. In addition, CAP804 also states that it is not permitted (page 45).

I remember seeing this debated here at length, and IIRC one explanation suggested for this was that the license reference was not printed on all pages. However, the license number and date of issue appear on all the pages - could it be that this is a new change and the previous advice is outdated?

I'll be sending off an email to the CAA to get written confirmation before I do anything, but considering their typical response times I figured I'd ask here in the mean time to see what people think.

Odai.

[riverrock83]

See this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/501702-easa-licensing-fcl-gatwick-5.html

Others have asked and been told that theirs is null and void if cut up.

[Mariner9]

EASA is committed to your safety.

Cutting up a licence without a valid scissor rating* would pose an unacceptable risk.

* To retain scissor currency, you must have cut up 3 licences within the preceding 90 days without suffering a paper cut.

[24Carrot]

you must have cut up 3 licences within the preceding 90 days without suffering a paper cut.

As sole manipulator of the scissors!

... whoops! No you are right, in the new EASA world you have to "carry out" the cuts, so you will have to be in charge of the scissors too :)

[BEagle]

The Irish, as only they could, came up with a simple solution - they issue 8 individual 2 page sections which can be folded back-to-back and put into the individual pockets of that silly little wallet.

Austria and (I think) Switzerland have decided to retain the previous licence size.

[riverrock83]

So, despite all the efforts of EASA, each country does things their own way anyway, with every licence looking different.
So even the things that seem fairly simple (and perhaps useful) to standardise haven't been...
Can someone remind me what benefits EASA have brought to this process again?

[The500man]

EASA is the solution to problems they haven't created yet.

[Marchettiman]

And don't forget the scissors will have to have an EASA Form 1.

[Odai]

Riverock83, that was indeed the thread I was referring to.

Although I can't find the post, I think it was mentioned somewhere that the reason cutting up the license was unacceptable was that not all pages were annotated with the license reference.

My license does have this information on every page, so I was wondering if it maybe changed since then?

I've sent off an email to fclweb but I doubt I'll hear back from them for a long while yet. The last time I asked (on the phone) for typical response waiting times I was told to expect 39 working days. :ouch:

What on Earth do the CAA suggest the empty sleeves are for if not for multiple pages of the license? :confused:

[The500man]

I didn't worry when I got mine. I cut it as required to fit the wallet. I thought that's what everybody did? There were no instructions to say you shouldn't cut it. Honestly if anyone ever wants to see it uncut, I can scan it into the computer and reprint it in a similarly poor quality. It's not like it's a one of a kind special issue with a hologram, water mark, magnetic strip, or chip.

Unsurprisingly many years later no one has ever even commented on the fact that I cut it to fit the wallet. I even cut the replacement pages. I may have even used a guillotine!

The CAA do keep an electronic record of the licence, so they do know if you have one, and if it's current (assuming they didn't lose the form).

[S-Works]

Cutting the new Part FCL licence invalidates it.

The CAA have issued specific instructions that state it must not be cut. It folds up to fit perfectly in one of the pockets. So does the medical. My examiner authority does the same along with the additional pages for it. The CAA also supply additional revalidation sheets that are the correct size to go in. By the time that lot goes in there is little room left. That's the reason there are so many empty pages. Think yourself lucky, most European countries issue the bit of paper in a single clear plastic pocket sized for the folded licence. At least the UK gave you one with room to expand. :ok:

It even fits perfectly my FAA Class 1 and Certificate.....

[Fuji Abound]

Cutting the new Part FCL licence invalidates it.

Legally, I very much doubt that.

[S-Works]

You a lawyer now than Fuji?

I have posted exactly what was stated to me by the UK CAA in writing. The message comes from the Head of Policy. Cutting up a Part FCL licence invalidates it.

As they issue it then I would suspect that they are the expert on what makes it valid or not?

[fireflybob]

In a court of law am sure you would still be deemed to be "licensed" notwithstanding that the licence itself has been cut up.

However the practical issue is some jobsworth such as an EASA inspector attempting to stop you from going flying!

You really could not dream this stuff up! What's next / an "approved" licence wallet?

[Johnm]

I have posted exactly what was stated to me by the UK CAA in writing. The message comes from the Head of Policy. Cutting up a Part FCL licence invalidates it.

As they issue it then I would suspect that they are the expert on what makes it valid or not?

Since the issue appears nowhere in the legislation they and you would only find out when you turned up in front of a judge, better hope it's Tudor :-)

[S-Works]

I do love the barrack room lawyers.

I am not sure how complicated this needs to be. The authority that issues the licence have stated that if its cut up it is invalidated. That authority make its terms for you to exercise the privilege (not a right) perfectly clear. If you choose to violate those terms the authority has the right to withdraw the privilege.

In this case they have stated that the licence must not be cut up. This is an EASA wide agreement.

If you fly to another country and get ramp checked and are found to be in possession of a defaced licence (from being cut up as an example) then I would not want to be explaining that the Barack room lawyers told me it would be OK to cut up.......

But hey, it's your licence, you can do whatever you want with it. I will keep mine in one piece as required by he issuing authority and EASA..... :ok:

[Heston]

Cutting up the piece of paper would not invalidate your licenced status itsself, in the sense that you could apply to the CAA for a replacement piece of paper without having to take all the exams and tests again. But it invalidates the piece of paper as PROOF of your licenced status - which is what the piece of paper is for - so you would have no easy way to demonstrate your status and priviledges as a licenced pilot to a person in authority.

In other words, of course you shouldn't cut it up!

[cockney steve]

Sheesh! Just play the jobsworth knobbers at their own game.
take a colour-L@ser copy and cut that up!

Let the buggers try to prove which one is the original!

Just had a similar issue with the Probate Registry, INSISTING I send a "Court Sealed" copy of a certificate.

I explained the original IS a photocopy (you can see the paper-edges of the original) and the print is glossy,BUT the rubber stamps from the Court are Matt, so they're probably REAL rubber-stamps. They accepted the argument this was how the Court sent it out.

I didn't tell them my L@ser copy exhibits similar characteristics :8

[Fuji Abound]

Bose - it is an old fashion concept these days - it use to be called common sense.

Can you imagine the Court Case - the CAA are claiming the pilot was flying without a license, the judge asks whether he passed his test .. yes, whether the pass was recorded by the CAA .. yes, and whether a valid license had been issued .. yes, so you are seeking to prosecute the pilot because he divided his license into a few sheets to fit in his wallet .. yes - hmm, I don't think so - call me old fashion if you will. ;) Whether strictly the CAA had a case or not even they in a million years wouldn't prosecute that one and if it were combined with some more serious action the Court would disregard the transgression.

I am not recommending you do divide up the license, and it wasn't a criticism of your post Bose, nor that this isn't the official line, just a comment that we can take ourselves far to seriously. I can tell you if I divided up my license it wouldn't cause me one wink of lost sleep and I would very happily plead my case in Court. ;) ;)

I do of course understand you have to tow the official line.

[trevs99uk]

A friend just photocopied his new license. and cut that up and place the copied pieces into all the folders. The original copy just folded up in the back folder.

Looks so much nicer...

TS

[S-Works]

If I cut mine up it would not fit in the folder, there would be to many pages.....

[Fuji Abound]

Ah, but it is not the number of bits of paper you have .. .. .. but ;),

[Johnm]

But no where near as nice and convenient as the little bit of plastic from the FAA........

I'm always paranoid about PPL licence validity because it's so Bl00dy complicated, but I drove cars without a licence for ages because I lost the old one and couldn't be bothered to go through the palaver of getting a photo one.

[Johnm]

That authority make its terms for you to exercise the privilege (not a right) perfectly clear. If you choose to violate those terms the authority has the right to withdraw the privilege.


That really annoys me too. I reckon I earned the RIGHT to fly aeroplanes as long as I obey the rules of the air and it was bl00dy hard work. I don't enjoy having some pip squeak at the Belgrano condescend to grant me the fruits of me labours:*

[Jetblu]

Utter madness how licences vary.

My driving licence clearly encourages for it to be cut.

..................................Tear along the dotted line....................................


or was that a speeding rating.

[EddieHeli]

Nobody told me I can't cut it up, it didn't come with any instructions what to do with it, and its not in any information that is available to me that I am officially required to know to exercise the privileges of it.
Anyone receiving the licence and wallet with all of those plastic sleeves without instructions would naturally think cutting it up is the thing to do.
So anyone with common sense who hasn't read this thread on pprune has probably cut theirs up to fit the pages into the wallet.
Like to see that one tested in court.
"Sorry your honour in the absence of information to the contrary and having been issued with 16 pages and a plastic wallet with sufficient sleeves to hold them I naturally assumed the CAA had left the guillotining to me to save money".
"Well you should have read pprune - send him down" LOL:rolleyes:

[S-Works]

Actually its in CAP 804. A document you as a pilot should have read and be intimately familiar with. You will also find that ignorance no excuse.....

[A and C]

Don't cut up your new EASA PPL, because despite the supplied plastic booklet being perfect and designed for this very purpose some idiot in EASA has deemed this to invalidate the certificate.

The chances are that if you get ramp checked the inspector will prohibit you from flying until a new certificate is issued, if you are at the other end of Europe and unable to fly will make the cost of getting the new certificate from the Cash And Agro look reasonable.

If you have already cut the thing up write to the CAA and use a different address as they don't charge to change the address but do charge to replace a damaged certificate.

[Fuji Abound]

Are you referring to the box on page 42?

This appears to say pilots are not permitted to tear up their license as the format is set by EASA. It doesn't appear to say that tearing up your license invalidates the license. To the extent it is a regulation I would like to see the EASA regulation which I suspect is the underpinning law. If that is the extent of it I very much doubt a box in an appendix in a CAP would be enforceable grounds for doing very much at all.

I also very much doubt any inspector would prohibit you from flying because you had cut up your license.

[md 600 driver]

Anyone know where you can get one of the caa 8 page holders from or is their a commercial company making one

[A and C]

You may well be correct.............but do you want to take that chance when you and your aircraft are at the other end of Europe ?

This subject has been done to death on other forums, the fact of the matter is that the CAA have said that you cutting the licence to fit the supplied wallet invalidates the certificate and were as the UK CAA inspectors are reasonably laid back with PPL holders others may not be as it is a requirement to have a valid licence when flying.

So it follows that if the EASA licence is cut to fit the wallet it is not a valid certificate and so you should not be flying.

That makes no sense I hear you cry ! Well it would seem that at EASA they don't make sense.........they make money !

[BillieBob]

The requirements related to the format of the licence are at ARA.FCL.200 and Appendix 1 to Part-ARA - the UK version is non-compliant in a number of minor respects. Nowhere in the Regulation does it suggest that cutting the licence into sections will invalidate it, this is just another bright idea dreamed up by the idiots at Gatwick.

[silverknapper]

Not quite sure what the big debate is all about. You're not supposed to. Plain and simple. Why so keen to?

I like the new format. Its a lot more compact. And it's actually easier to take copies if ever needed of one A4 page than several wee ones.

Go ahead and cut it. But any examiner in the future who needs to sign your licence won't do so if they are abiding by the rules. I have heard this from a few TRE's.

Kind of reminds me of guys at work who don't like the blue book their new licence came in, so promptly put it in their old green one. Who cares. :ugh:

[Fuji Abound]

BillieBob

Thanks.

I cant find that reference. I am not doubting it is correct. However I am OK with Google etc and it demonstrates that ignorance is an excuse if it is impossible for the man on the no 10 omnibus to find the legislation.

It is interesting that as you say it would appear cutting of the license does not invalidate the license - there is a surprise.

Not that I care, but ramp inspectors and examiners beware, if you find a cut license and take any action in consequence are you ready to be found liable for costs and damages in consequence of any unreasonable action you take - I hope you have it in writing from the CAA that they will fully support any action you take.

As I say I dont care, I have only made a few contributions because it annoys me when people are prepared to perpetuate and blindly follow this nonsense, rather than have the courage to say it is nonsense - shame on you.

[cockney steve]

[fact of the matter is that the CAA have said that you cutting the licence to fit the supplied wallet invalidates the certificate
That doesn't mean it's law
It could be that some puffed-up self-important halfwit bellend has DECIDED that he has the power to decree
"that's the law, 'cos I say so, and I'M in charge of the rubber stamp....so kowtow to me, or else"

I'd suggest the LICENSE is the conferring of the priviledges.....the bit of paper is only a confirmation of the records held at Belgrano.....like I said, - colour L@ser copy, indistinguishable from the original....chop it, produce it, let the jobsworth work himself into a paddy , then innocently produce an intact, folded copy from the back. Of course, you don't tell him that's a copy as well...the original is at home, in a safe place, isn't it?

[S-Works]

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry......

[F4TCT]

I fear this may be one thing in a long line of 'things' to do with EASA which make no sense and exist only to piss off those who hold any qualification in the aviation world.

I'll choose to laugh, im on the very of tears as it is...

[BillieBob]

I'd suggest the LICENSE is the conferring of the priviledges [sic]That may be but, in law, the licence is the piece of paper.the original is at home, in a safe place, isn't it?I hope not or you would be in breach of EU law and liable to prosecution, particularly if you'd already pi$$ed off the 'jobsworth' carrying out the ramp check.

Fuji - all current EU legislation may be found on the EUR-lex website. However, the site is so user unfriendly that it defeats even Google's webcrawlers so it's probably not worth the effort. The regulation's on Page 18, the Appendix on Page 26 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2012:100:0001:0056:EN:PDF)

[Lone_Ranger]

Oh C'mon Billy, you gonna bend over and spread em every time you read that some EU pillock requests it?.............Put Your hands up..how many UK PPLs flying in the UK carry their license with them
nobody is going to arrest you for not adhering to such bollox......... grow a pair ffs

[F4TCT]

I personally carry mine, although every time i have been to a flying school for self hire, not one person has asked to see it....

[Echo Romeo]

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry......

I am having a good laugh reading this :)

[Lone_Ranger]

So why do you carry it?, what do you think will happen if you dont?

edit..question to F4

[Whopity]

how many UK PPLs flying in the UK carry their license with themNot many because for certain flights there was an exemption in the ANO however as of Sept 2012 it is now a legal requirement, so if you are asked to produce it and fail to do so, your flight ceases at that point. The "EU pillock" will have caused you personally a lot of inconvenience.

[Lone_Ranger]

It isnt going to happen, I repeat, Grow a pair, all this stuff is just bollox

[Cessnafly]

Right! That's it! I am cutting my licence up right now and will carry it with me. :)

[S-Works]

It isnt going to happen, I repeat, Grow a pair, all this stuff is just bollox

Ha, ha, ha, he, he, he, I am the laughing Gnome and you can't catch me......:ugh:

[Lone_Ranger]

So what?, laugh all you want me old matey skip, but all this 'oh my god its illegal' crap, is those who spend their lives having meetings and completing studies

If you seriously go around worrying that you forgot to take your license with you flying GA in the UK, then I suggest you take up knitting, if you dont carry it, what do you think will happen?

OK, its exceedingly remotely possible that some jobsworth **** will pull you, and you will spend some time, proving that you actually have a license
Unlikely and hardly life changing

Worry about something actually worth planning for like EFATO, not bollox like this

[A and C]

Fly to the Isle of Man in the first week in June and see what happens !

[Fuji Abound]

I was informed tonight by an aviation lawyer who has been following this thread with some amusement that tearing up your papers doesnt invalidate them - thats good enough for me so i guess there are a few on here who need to have a cosy chat with the caa legal department before they refuse to sign off anyones paperwork. :=

[soaringhigh650]

If you cut up your driver's license, you legally still haven't lost your driver's license as it is saved on the official computer.

The main problem is that you can't prove you have a valid license when you are stop checked so they will have to phone or write to the licensing authority to confirm it.

The same goes for a pilot's license. But do you wanna take this risk just so that it fits into a wallet?

Obviously people in EASA are bright enough to know how a license should be designed. :ugh:

[S-Works]

OK, its exceedingly remotely possible that some jobsworth **** will pull you, and you will spend some time, proving that you actually have a license
Unlikely and hardly life changing

You clearly don't get out much. I get ramp checked on a frequent basis at work. Especially in France and Spain. I always carry my licence on my person. My employer would not be amused at the aircraft being grounded due to irregularities in my paperwork.

[Lone_Ranger]

Bose, I see you conveniently ignored and didnt quote the bit where I said "GA in the UK"
as the lawyers friend implied, its a bit of paper it can get lost, its not the only existing proof you have a license, nobody is going to lock up a PPL holder:D and throw away the key for misplacing it.

Perhaps its you, needs to get out more me old matey skip along with the other worry warts in this thread

[cockney steve]

I see that none of you OCD sufferers has taken on board the fact that your carefully-folded single sheet is likely to wear away at the folds....SHOCK HORROR what are you going to do then? :eek:

@ Billie Bob.....if you re-read my previous post (s) I suggested the use of a colour-laser copy....they're indistinguishable from the original (it the machine is adjusted properly),carried in addition to the sectioned one.......even the densest Jobsworth will then be presented with a dilemma.
Making a copy is unlikely to be an offence.....he's just thrown his weight around because you have "defaced" your license.....you challenge him that this is a copy and "here is the original, intact, folded up in the back pocket"
is he going to be bright enough to risk calling you out on it? Depends what sanctions his boss would impose for his abuse of power....I'm sure you could fasce him down on that one,as there are softer targets for petty officials.

[Odai]

As someone else in this thread has done, I've simply made copies of my medical and license, cut those up and put them in the sleeves. The number of sleeves matches perfectly.

That way, the information is easily viewable by anyone who needs to see it and I keep the original medical and license in the front and back covers respectively in case they need to see them. There's nothing wrong with making a copy as long as I also carry the original is there, unless I've missed something?

[S-Works]

That way, the information is easily viewable by anyone who needs to see it and I keep the original medical and license in the front and back covers respectively in case they need to see them. There's nothing wrong with making a copy as long as I also carry the original is there, unless I've missed something?

As an Examiner, I want to see the originals as will any flight ops inspector. So putting cut up copies in serves no purpose.

What is the issue of using it as designed? It's a single sheet of paper that unfolds. It's not difficult!!

What I see here is a very English reluctance to change....... Stubborn and pointless characteristic.

[EddieHeli]

I think you'll find change is ok, it's change for the worse or change for no good reason that gets people's backs up.

[Fuji Abound]

What I see here is a very English reluctance to change....... Stubborn and pointless characteristic. To be blunt, what I see is some that are prepared to put up with this complete nonsense, and haven't got the gumption to say it is nonsense.

I would make a point of avoiding coming to you if I knew that is what you would insist on.

Yes it pointless, but it is equally pointless to refuse to sign someones paperwork when it may well be clear and apparent they have a valid licence and cut it up because they weren't aware of a technicality buried in an obscure document which it is doubtful has any legal validity. While we are on that point and discussing barrack room lawyers I am still looking forward to the learned gentlemen actually point us in the direction of the law - and I mean legislation that is enforceable, is on the statute, and clearly states that if you divide up your licence it is invalid. As I said before were it me I would want a letter from the CAA stating the course of action I should follow if an applicant's licence had been divided.

- and please don't take my remarks personally, you are of course entitled to conduct yourself as you wish, as I am to equally strongly disagree with your approach. :)

Anyway bored with the thread now. Its all good fun windups included, but I guess there is a slightly serious side to the thread in that it reveals the sort of nonsense that is being foisted on us and the more we are becoming a collective herd of sheep blindly jumping into the fire because someone says it is a good idea.

[Fuji Abound]

Thanks Joe - I have read the legislation - as clear as mud.

It is a problem with the weight of change - we have got examiners and instructors who haven't got a clue what they are doing and guidance that is wrong but no one bothering to apply even an ounce of common sense.

Bose - I have a horrible feeling you are wrong yet again ;), but you are such a tease you are forgiven. Watch out though, there are signs of it becoming a habit. ;)

[S-Works]

To be blunt, what I see is some that are prepared to put up with this complete nonsense, and haven't got the gumption to say it is nonsense.

I would make a point of avoiding coming to you if I knew that is what you would insist on.

ANY examiner or Inspector will want to see the original only. Your copies are a pointless waste of time to me and according to the CAA I can't sign a licence that has been cut up. As an Examiner I am bound to follow the rules of the authority. Until the tell me otherwise I have no choice.

I really do not see what the issue is with this. Its a simple single sheet of paper that folds neatly into a single pocket. The medical does the same. The CAA now provide additional ratings pages that go into the spare pages.

The only time you are going to show someone your licence is on request and so whats the problem with unfolding a bit of paper?

These threads really make me laugh, it does not seem like five minutes since people were complaining that the booklet format was stupid and asking what was wrong with the paper card!!

[austerwobbler]

I am not going to risk cutting mine up as I have not been checked out or have a rating to solely use a sharp pair of scissors !:E

Austerwobbler

[fireflybob]

Apparently you have to purchase EASA approved scissors from their website - a mere snip at 50 euros!

[pudoc]

I think no, you can't.

But then why send me my license, with no letter and them giving me 1 A4 piece of paper with 8 little pages on it and then a plastic wallets the size of those pages in a little book? What else am I meant to conclude?

So technically I don't have a valid license...but there are many commercial pilots out there without valid licenses in that case!

[Fuji Abound]

i just love this thread - so much common sense.

[md 600 driver]

Anyone got one of the caa 8 page holders for sale

[riverrock83]

I wouldnt worry pudoc - the EU says it is perfectly valid. I could probably get the CAA to send me another one for free, but am sticking with pages in the sleeves as they should be, as a stand for common sense over unthinking dogma.
See http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/501702-easa-licensing-fcl-gatwick-7.html#post7708706

Most NAAs agreed that a cut up licence is a defaced licence and therefore an invalid licence. If the CAA had cut it up before giving it to you, then that would (presumably) be fine.

EU / EASA doesn't say its valid. They just say that each "page" should be a certain size...

If you get ramp checked you will be grounded, or if you go for a rating renewal check - the examiner wont be able to sign the cut up licence. Until the CAA and NAAs change their mind - you need an A4 licence with lots of boxes.

[Richard Phillips]

photocopy the original & cut up the photocopy

[Fuji Abound]

As far as I am aware you cant make the law up as you go along - even if a lot of people think they can and do regardless.

Unless the law says the licence is invalid if cut up, it isn't. If you were grounded or were refused a sign off then I suspect you would have a case in law for damages which could be considerable which is why I recommended earlier that if you conduct ramp checks or are an examiner or instructor I would get a letter from the CAA confirming that they accept full responsibility for your grounding or refusing the sign off. Personally I think you will find the CAA will refuse to write the letter.

It would be interesting to know (given the other thread) how many commercial pilots have cut up their licences already and what view their employers take. The damages for grounding a BA flight for example could be considerable. I suspect most commercial operators, if they have got any sense, will tell their employees not to cut up their licence - I know I would, but who knows. On the other hand I suspect there are plenty of private plots who have done so. If I were one and got grounded I would very happily have the matter examined by the Court.

I suggest it is the law that needs changing but I hope EASA realise it would be pointless to do so, there is nothing wrong with the law as it stands which from what we are told does not state your licence is invalid if it is cut up.

[OpenCirrus619]

A question for those who have dug through the EASA paperwork....

Does EASA say it's OK to cut up the licence? (If so could you give a reference).
Or does EASA not state that you can't?

The CAA, in a couple of docs, says:
Pilots are not permitted to cut up their licence as its format and layout are stipulated by EASA regulations.
I presume the argument is that, once cut up, it is no longer in the stipulated layout.

OC619

[PompeyPaul]

...the lady expressly told me NOT to cut up the license as it invalidates it. I then looked at the license and realised why she thought to mention it :eek:

The rules for flying are so archaic, so convoluted, that I often think you could take a fine tooth comb to ANY flight and find something amiss somewhere

[Fuji Abound]

See joes post.

It says each page shall be 1/8 th of an a4, which unless you consider page has the ordinary meaning to include a page within a page is impossible to achieve without cutting it up. In fact quite possibly the licence is invalid if you dont cut it up.

Pompey paul the lady might have actually directed you to infringe the law, now there is a thought.

[Kestrel]

I just find it barking mad that we are being issued with a licence/ holder that just. Doesn't work as 3 of the sides really need to be visible.

Only way currently is cutting but yes I know it invalidates.

Any thoughts

[S-Works]

Yes, you take it out of the page and open it up as it was designed. One would assume that as a person holds a pilots licence then they also have an appropriate set of digits with which to do this and the required dexterity.

Personally I don't have an issue with it and am grateful for the extra pages to put medical and various examiner approvals into. My FAA licence and medical even fit!

I guess I am just not as resistant to change as some?

[Fostex]

And how often does one actually look at the licence apart from when being ramp checked. I set add my appropriate expiry dates to an electronic calendar which provides adequate warning of when I need revals / checks / medical renewals. The rest of the time my licence sits in the flight bag and is rarely looked at.

[jc2065]

I agree with Kestrel, it is silly that you can't see the segments of the licence that the pockets are clearly designed to fit. Anyway, i spoke to the CAA a while back and you are allowed to cut the page in half landscape.

Just one cut though otherwise it is invalidated. Still not great but at least you get to use another plastic pocket...

[Fostex]

I'll just leave mine in one piece, safe in the knowledge I lack the OCD or other mental health issues requiring me break out the scissors and fill the poly pockets in a small blue wallet which rarely is removed from my flight bag.

:ok:

[slw29]

Photocopy it, cut up the copy, and keep the original in there as well, that's what I've done. And yes I realise I have OCD :)

[S-Works]

I'll just leave mine in one piece, safe in the knowledge I lack the OCD or other mental health issues requiring me break out the scissors and fill the poly pockets in a small blue wallet which rarely is removed from my flight bag.

LOL, me to!

[avonflyer]

I didn't even bother to use the blue wallet... I have a nice leather cover to my old brown one (it was a gift) so I just put it (uncut) in the old wallet... nervously awaiting the licence police as I sit here..

[BigEndBob]

Don't bother with the holder, just staple it into your logbook.

[Fuji Abound]

Personally i cant see the problem, and dont really care.

However i still dont believe cutting up your licence invalidates it. If cutting it up is your thing i would support your right to do so!

[L'aviateur]

Filled in both a renewal and conversion form, found someone to sign off my English Proficiency (not easy to find here in the sandpit), then sent of my £95.00 and waited 6 weeks (payment was processed at week 1...) and opened the Fedex envelope to find an A4 sheet and an awful plastic wallet. Had to fold over my medical once more to fit, just looks ridiculous.

Why can't they move to a photocard or something? When compared to my Master Mariners license which is almost identical I'm size and quality to a passport with the same kind of photo page and then the other pages for any revalidations or restrictions. If I was an ATPL I'd much rather something professional like that.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4050/5150196209_dc7610aeef.jpg

[S-Works]

Why? Is it a penis extension or something? Mine lives in my headset case as I have to carry it at work. If I am ramp checked then the inspector can open it up.

Beyond that it matters not what it looks like.

Reminds me of the old saying.... "If you go into a bar, how do you know there is a pilot there? They tell you....."

[L'aviateur]

In the merchant navy there is pride and respect for having achieved a Masters or Chief Engineer license.The quality of the license represents that. Is an ATPL not considered with the same respect?

But that aside, still why not a photocard similar to a drivers license or the FAA license?

[Fostex]

Who cares, it's a bit of paper, it is what you do with it that counts.

I also hold an MEng in Electrical and Electronics Eng... I have a rough idea what my degree cert. looks like and where it is but it only comes out for interviews. I have no desire to look at it, the same is true of my aviation licences.

One slightly annoying thing about the EASA licence is that it is no longer big enough to hold a passport like the JAR one was. Used to be a handy way of keeping everything in one place.

[S-Works]

The piece of paper does not make the man (or woman) but rather the skill and dedication that went into it........

I really don't care what my licence looks like, I am happy to have achieved it and take pride in that not what the bit of paper looks like.

No format is perfect. Somewhere along the line there has to be evidence of ratings being in date. EASA choose to have it on the licence which makes it self contained. The FAA require it to go into the logbook and issue a small card, this will eventually be a photo card as I understand it. This would then mean that I would have to lug my logbook around as well which is a pain in the ass with the amount of travel that I do.

Most of the guys that I work with don't give a damn what it looks like either.

You still have to be able to walk the walk....... ;)

[direct ortac]

If I only had the choice.. still waiting for mine! But this thread is hilarious! LINSAK

[Jonty]

Was in the Belgrano last week getting my ATPL sorted (they cocked it up last time) Was told specifically not to cut it up.

[Pull what]

There is a very simple solution, put it in a clear A4 plastic wallet-there you are you see, thinking outside of the wallet improves situational awareness.