Airvans - Clearance Auction...

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From the May issue of Aviation Trader, p. 21,

Ex 'Alligator' Airvans and the Partenavia IXE, up for clearance auction.

To be offerred as one lot for the 5 'Vans + Pn.68, or make an offer per aircraft.

I see that the 'Vans have around the 1,500 hrs TT.

Sad to see them all go.
So, who else is doing the Bungles etc these days?

:sad:

[Wally Mk2]

Hey 'Griffo' I just caught the tail end of the ABC news 2day saying something about Gippy Aero down there in Latrine valley laying off employees.
Might have that all wrong.

Sad to see any airframes sold off under those conditions:sad:


Wmk2

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

NOPE Wal,

Not wrong - On the ball - as usual.
Jobs to go at Victorian aircraft manufacturer - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-15/jobs-to-go-at-victorian-aircraft-manufacturer/4691128?section=vic)

Between '40 and 100' workers , so they say....

Not Good for OZ industry.

Now, IF they were the car industry...??
:(

[RatsoreA]

Interesting back story... When I was up there, the word was that the airvans were going to be sold back to the manufturer at a certain rate, so there wouldn't be a sudden glut of them on the market, which would reduce demand for new ones, and they were going to be "factory overhauled", then sold off, so they wouldn't have to slow their line down...

One wonders if there is any 'cause and effect' between these two stories?!

The PN68 though.... *shudder*.... PM me for that story...

[Horatio Leafblower]

Now, IF they were the car industry...??

...if it were the Auto industry, the Feral Gummint would hive them several million dollars to stay open for another 2 years and then Mahindra would close the factory and lay everyone off anyway, or hold the government to ransom for another handout.

Did anyone think for a second that an Indian company would buy an Australian maufacturing operation with the intention of paying Australian wages forever? :eek:

You will see the TATA Airvan released next year painted in yellow and red with strings of marigolds draped around the fuse, a roofrack for suitcases/goats/tourists and handles on the top of the fuse for those who prefer to hang out the windows. The PA will be upgraded with tinnier speakers so the Hindi pop music will sound right.

Aviation journalists will fall over themselves to do a test flight and will gush about the remarkable handling qualities and performance and how it will revolutionise its sector of the market. :ugh:

Would the last manufacturer to leave Australia please turn out the light? :suspect:

[AussieNick]

Have to agree with Mr. Leafblower on this. Had a feeling that when Gippsaero was brought out it was only a matter of time before they started to lay off workers.

How long before the entire production line is shipped to India?

Sad day, but will forever happen when we have a government that gives a rodents rectum about the industry.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ah so, Guys n' Gals,...

"The Global Village" strikes again.....

"Would you like more grasshoppers on your rice..??"

:ugh::yuk:

[Andy_RR]

It's Australia's own fault. There a couple of local entrepreneurs build up a company from scratch, need to sell out of it to move into a retirement phase and who's there to invest into it to see it continue in Australian ownership...?

Which Australian superannuation fund took it on?

Which Australian sovereign wealth fund was there to snap it up and continue building on the shoulders of these giants?

I know that as the stampede to invest was dying down to a trickle, there were still several million Aussies prepared to leverage themselves to their back teeth to bid up an already overpriced shack to keep the rain off.

We do it to ourselves, guys. Blame no one else!

[LeadSled]

Folks,
All the obstructionism of CASA doesn't help, the original investors were bled dry by the costs of CASA delays and prevarication.
Presumably, several CASA people will be happy with the move offshore, they will no longer have to take responsibility for their regulatory decisions ----- never underestimate the costly regulatory obstacles put in the way of certification by CASA, compared with FAA, NZ CAA etc. The costs and delays in certifying the new models are probably the straws that broke the camel's back.
It is not a simplistic matter of relative labor costs.
Tootle pip!!

[Fred Gassit]

Certification costs ruin airframers everywhere, assuming this is the cause, Oz standards are about the same as FAR 23 anyway aren't they?

[Old Akro]

I think I'd look to TATA / Jaguar Land Rover for a model of how Mahindra might behave with GippsAero. Leave manufacturing & engineerring support here (who really wants to buy an Indian aeroplane? - just like who wants to buy an Indian Range Rover?) but instead engage in an aggressive programme to source as many components and sub assemblies as possible from India. Certification will complicate this, but there is probably a fair array of non critical labour intensive components (interior trim comes first to mind) that might be sourced from India relatively easily. Its possible that the job cuts are more about this than lack of sales.

Its what we get with our current industry policy.

[VH-XXX]

I wonder what this will mean for the revamped Nomad.... and the turbine Airvan....?

[aeromariner]

That is the myth of course, but it is completely wrong. There was a lot of money from Australian Investors in that company starting around 1994. From then on said investors just watched their money frittered away. It was all gone by the time the sale to Mahindra came (plus some ie GA was broke). The money in the sale gave a fraction back to the investors. But essentially the investors were burnt. I know the myth perpetuated about two guys designing and building and testing and certifying an aeroplane with absolutely no help from anybody else and not an investment dollar to be seen sounds good ..... but its straight out of Disneyland

[aeromariner]

and more mythical rubbish from leadsled. The problem with certification was that the management of the company was not totally committed to the process. CASA was not exactly speedy gonzalez, but the company often had front running at CASA and then would baulk at the process. The seats were certified in the FAA laboratory in Oklahoma city by CASA despite the best efforts of GA management.

[Wally Mk2]

Not good at all & it's such a shame that aviation in this country is almost non existent mainly due to our Govt's who simply don't see it as anything serious.

The car industry on the other hand employs a LOT of people & we can't have Ford/Holden going under which would hurt the incumbent Govt big time with mass unemployment hurting their figures so WE prop them up.
There's most likely more to it behind the scenes but ya can't help but feel for the employees.

Who the hell is aviation they would say?



Wmk2

[avcraft]

Maybe they could put those 40 employees to work building the parts we need to keep the aircraft flying...

[VH-XXX]

I guess what we all want to really know, is have the employees actually lost their jobs to their Indian counterparts in India.... or are they struggling on hard times? It might be hard to get that answer from any media source.

[aeromariner]

Oh Wally Mk2 did I mention the millions the government poured into the place as well as the investors ..... still continue with your dreaming ............

[Old Akro]

I'm in the final stages of preparing to hire about 20 people in Thailand. Its not until you get to that level of detail that you really understand how unfriendly Australia is to business and how expensive & time consuming our bureaucracy is. You don't pay much less for skilled labour in Thailand, but everything else from phones to corporate tax is a fraction of the cost. And (unlike Australia) government ministers and the heads of public service departments are accessible and interested in helping overcome problems.

[Horatio Leafblower]

They're not all like that, Akro.

The mining minister in NSW was VERY accessible and VERY good at solving problems.... :oh:

[Old Akro]

Horatio,
Touche!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Isn't his name 'ole King COAL..??''

:p

[peterc005]

In Thailand the company tax rate is 23%, in Australia the company tax rate is 30%. Not a great difference.

In Australia if someone breaks a contract you can take them to court and have a good chance of redress. In Thailand a contract means nothing.

If you have money in Thailand every bastard will put their hand out for a present or bribe. It starts with Immigration and Customs and never ends.

Australia has ASIC, so if someone is a crook they stand a good chance of being caught. In Thailand everything is for sale, including the police, judiciary and government.

In Australia you can make an honest buck, pay tax and live to quietly spend the fruits of your labour.

Places like Thailand, Philippines and China ostensibly look appealing, but rarely pay off.

[Arnold E]

The car industry on the other hand employs a LOT of people & we can't have Ford/Holden going under which would hurt the incumbent Govt big time with mass unemployment hurting their figures so WE prop them up.

And by how much do you think you prop up the mining industry with the diesel rebate??

[Horatio Leafblower]

In Australia if someone breaks a contract you can take them to court and have a good chance of redress.

...if you can afford it. If they are bigger than you, they will break you.

Australia has ASIC, so if someone is a crook they stand a good chance of being caught.

...except for the principle of the 'corporate veil' which means they can usually crash the company leaving millions owing in its wake, pocket the cash, and start another comapny tomorrow. Again. and again. and again.

In Australia you can make an honest buck, pay tax and live to quietly spend the fruits of your labour.

You make it sound so easy :ugh:

[Fred Gassit]

A rebate is giving back money that was yours to begin with, the diesel rebate shouldn't be costing taxpayers anything should it?

A subsidy on the other hand...

[owen meaney]

OldAkro
Perhaps you should talk to that bloke from Port Aero that went to Thailand, and got "raped" severely by his Thai business partner, the government and assorted hangeronerers. Lost three seaplanes in the bargain

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day Arnold,

As I recall, the diesel tax was introduced to help fund the major roads & the road damage caused by the 'heavy haulage' trucks at the time - and these are all diesel.

The mining industry and the primary producers won their claim that their diesel was NOT used on Gummint roads, but for the purposes of mining / farming etc. on private property.

Therefore it was not fair that they should be subsidising the Gummint for road useage when those diesel powered machines were never on said roads.

So they won and claim back their fuel tax.

Nothing to do with US 'supporting' anything....

At least, that is how I remember it....

Cheers:ok:

[Mypost]

Interesting how the thread gets off topic. Diesel tax etc has nothing to do with the GippsAero debacle.
Prior to this announcement GippsAero (Mahindra really, the GippsAero name was being phased out anyway and replaced by Mahindra Aerospace) had already got rid of about 10 this year. The '40' officially announced in the Mahindra media release is really 50. The wording in the media release is just a spin to soften the media impact. Internal sources from within the company indicate 65 is the real number and there is speculation it will be 100. That will leave just enough to pack the lot up and shift it to India. One needs to read the full media release to read between the lines.

Check out the crap on Aerostructures & Utility Aircraft Production - Mahindra Aerospace (http://www.mahindraaerospace.com) and the real intent is made clearer. Big facility built at Bangalore!

RIP GippsAero

[VH-XXX]

I heard that sales were down somewhat and that there were no secret plans to move to India. Interesting that you believe otherwise. Moving to India won't sell more aircraft, so why would you do that? Unless you think there is going to be a magical 50% price decrease.

You can't keep manufacturing aircraft if nobody is buying them. Look at the opposition, their sales are down across the board too.

[Old Akro]

In Thailand the company tax rate is 23%

I think you'll find its now 20% and planned to reduce to 17% to match Singapore. But any industry that is part of Thailand strategic plan will get an 8 year tax holiday. That is 8 years with zero tax. Plus, most companies come up with new investment plans at the end of 8 years to get another 8 year tax holiday. Now we are up to 16 years with zero tax. If you set up a regional Technical Centre, all of the employees get lower personal tax rates. Most companies reduce the employees gross salary so they maintain the equivalent after tax salary.

Combine that with lower telephone, real estate, fuel, electricity & water costs, airfares, etc and its a much cheaper place to do business - even employing engineers at Western pay rates.

Unlike Australia, Thailand does not readily allow foreigners to own more than 49% of anything (you can get to 100% equity in some assets with BOI approval). So, in most instances you need a Thai partner. Just like in Australia, you need to choose partners carefully and cultural & language differences make getting to know someone a bit harder there. Set up with someone you meet in a bar on your first, second or even 6th trip and you'll get what you deserve.

Thai law is very western, with a court structure that is quite western (unlike China or Indonesia). But, just like Australia there are many ways to circumvent it. Overall, Thailand is less protective of the foolhardy. It is definitely not a nanny state.

I may be wrong, but I have a recollection that Gipps Aero got started when Australia harmonised its certification requirements with the US. So, Aussie certification is good for the US. I doubt that that applies to India. I still think that TATA / Jaguar Land-Rover (hopefully pprune will not auto correct to Trabant this time - how does that happen?) is a good model. Leave it with the Australian made banner, but move as much component supply as possible to cheaper countries. If you read the JLR annual reports they are quite open about this strategy.

India also now has a new 2-3 year old foreign services tax. The Government witholds 23% of any services billed from foreigners. Its why my company (along with many others) will not deal with India. Mahindra also insist on working with letters of credit, which one again I won't do for consulting services regardless of how lucrative it is. I can see that this would be problematic in a field like aircraft manufacture where you're likely to need to use a bunch of sub contracted specialists. Peter 005 criticises the Thai legal system. He's obviously never looked at an Indian law contract. I was talking yesterday with one of Australia's highest profile Automotive firms who recently did some consulting in India and has never been paid. If they have trouble, small consultants have no hope.

I also understand that a lot of the GA8 sales are in SE Asia / Pacific region. Its going to be a million times easier to sell to these countries from Australia than India.

So, without inside knowledge I would guess that its about sales downturn & moving component manufacture offshore, with the emphasis on the latter.

[Andy_RR]

In Thailand the company tax rate is 23%, in Australia the company tax rate is 30%. Not a great difference.


That's a 23% reduction in tax burden. Add 20% to your fuel burn and see if you stay competitive...


In Australia if someone breaks a contract you can take them to court and have a good chance of redress. In Thailand a contract means nothing.


A contract means nothing in Australia unless you're prepared to dig deep to fund the legal challenge, and then plenty of lawyers will have their hands out - see next point...


If you have money in Thailand every bastard will put their hand out for a present or bribe. It starts with Immigration and Customs and never ends.


How is this different to Australia, except the people with their hands out are doing so on behalf of government agencies...?


Australia has ASIC, so if someone is a crook they stand a good chance of being caught. In Thailand everything is for sale, including the police, judiciary and government.


Talk to the shareholders of ON Q and Bill Express to see how well ASIC works. Bear in mind that ASIC was warned in some detail as to what was going on before it all blew up...


In Australia you can make an honest buck, pay tax and live to quietly spend the fruits of your labour.


You'll be lucky to make an honest 50c in the buck in Australia. A quiet life is dancing to the tune of government agencies here and there, then?


Places like Thailand, Philippines and China ostensibly look appealing, but rarely pay off.

As opposed to Australia, where business is booming...?

[Wally Mk2]

'Arny' I think my very good legal eagle "Griffo"mate summed it up nicely re Fuel rebate so no need to flog a dead horse there:-)

The most destructive human trait that hurts others is corruption, it's rife in ALL level of society & Govt!! Money breeds corruption, the more of it the more corruption.


Wmk2

[aeromariner]

Of course the thread will move off topic when nobody has any knowledge on the topic

[aquadraco]

They certainly make it clear that the Indian manufacturing facility is expanding in a big way, and avoid much mention of Oz manufacture. I just hope their aeroplanes are more professionally put together than their website.:yuk:

[VH-XXX]

One of the founding owners of the company is a family friend and he said there are no plans to move production to India! As much as this is a rumour network, this is not true !

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Time will tell.......
Hope you are correct...!!!
:ok::ok:

In the meantime.......Anybody wanna buy a 'cheap' Airvan....
You have a choice of 5.....

Go For IT!!!

:ok:

[Horatio Leafblower]

There aint no such thing as a cheap aeroplane. :ouch:

[metalbasher]

40 people sacked, money owed to contractors,12 airvans sitting in the hanger, none of this is good.Spare parts from Gipps Aero good luck there.Parts are out there.

[StallsandSpins]

The quality of manufacturing in places like China and India has improved greatly in recent times but the cost has also risen too. Manufacturers are increasingly finding that the cheap wages which gave countries like china and India an advantage aren't there anymore. A lot of low end manufacturing (textiles,cheap plastic crap etc ) has gone to countries such as Burma and Vietnam and the high end manufacturing has in many cases started to return to countries such as the US. when it does return it usually involves complex automated equipment and many less workers than it did previously.

It would make sense that Mahindra would have an extensive manufacturing facility in India for the Indian market. This shouldn't necessarily be to the detriment of the Australian operation. I think there simply isn't much of a market for brand new GA Aircraft in Australia (or anywhere else really).

Dunno what the sticker price is for a new airvan but i know your not going to get much change out of $600 000 for a brand new c206 by the time it's out here and on the register. There simply isn't many operators around who could afford to equip themselves with a fleet of new aircraft like this even though there would be some advantage in doing so. A private operator could get a used corrosion free 206 with an overhauled engine and a brand new G1000 installed for a fraction of the new price. This is the main reason why Beechcraft, Piper and Mooney have all been teetering on verge of bankruptcy in recent years.

[AviatorJack]

I know this is going of subject but the airvan is simply the worst airplane I have ever flown, I would never operate one in the first place. I know this might be a subject of Oz pride but all I can say is this was a poor design not built to compete against any competitor.

[peterc005]

What's wrong with the Airvan?

[aeromariner]

AviationJack ... you need to fly and operate a few more types

[str8shooter]

AviatorJack, ...... are you SERIOUS, ...... and you call yourself "aviator"???

For a small aircraft manufacturer, they've managed to kick the butt of some of the major brands, even in their own countries, are certified and flying in 38 countries around the world, and on any GA hardstand would be one of very few, if any, certified to FAR23 Amdmt 55 standards.

It might not be the prettiest or the fastest, but it would have to be one of the safest around, .... I would gladly have my family of 4 fly in it! And guess what, we can ALL fit in it together, ..... and it would probably be cheaper to own and operate than its competition!

You need to get out a bit...........

[kingRB]

still has quite possibly the worst seats ever though :}

[Seagull V]

So what was the fate of the Alligators Airvans that this thread started out being about? Were they sold? If so who to?

[aeromariner]

kingRB, I think you mean some of the worst cushions ... as to the quality of the seats themselves you could ask some of the people who have walked away from bingles

[RatsoreA]

Frankly, I have not seen any Garmin, Aspen etc type avionics 'upgrade' that actually works properly or even remotely compares with the function and reliability of the latest factory G1000 type avionics and autopilots.

I would be inclined to disagree with you on that point...

I have a G500, with a new GTN650, and KFC200 autopilot that works brilliantly, and can do all the things that a factory installed G1000 can. Approaches, FD, VNAV etc etc. I love it! The only thing the G500 doesn't have is the engine management side, which the EDM960 will take care of, which interfaces with the GPS and provides the last bit of functionality that I missed out on.

[AussieO2]

has anyone news on the auction results?

[sprocket check]

There will be thousands of air vans built in India, for the Indian market.

Sc

[sprocket check]

There will be thousands of air vans built in India, for the Indian market.

Sc

[VH-XXX]

Is it April 1st or something sprocket ?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Sprocket, that thought crossed my mind too. Domestic certification for domestic market only.

[sprocket check]

It's already in the press in India, can't find (and couldn't really bother rightnow) the reference. Google it if you like. Something about the fastest growing GA market in the world , building and expanding airports all over the place and ramping local manufacturing up something severe. Only for the Indian market. With the middle class growing exponentially and govmnt looking at aviation as a strategic key infrastructure for speedy growth and servicing BLA BLA.

Head out of sand Australia. We have paid for their r&d.

[Radix]

............

[sarge75]

India fastest growing GA market in the world. Heaps of upgrades.

Must be true, the press says so.

we paid for their R& D, they'll b hundreds of airvans there soon....

What a bunch of hysterical BS.

good luck finding Avgas in these wonderful, new invisible airports.

Airvans are great for single engine charter operations. All you clueless idiots who make up things here should look into the restrictions on single engine piston ops.

Right now, there is no market in Idia for airvans and it will take a lot of work to create one

[VH-XXX]

has anyone news on the auction results?


I second this, does anyone actually have the results of what happened???? :ok:

I'm referring to the Pickles auction today.

How many and how much?

[sprocket check]

Hey sarge,

I did say
we paid for their R&D

which I stand by.

they'll b hundreds of airvans there soon....

...this part must be your addition and it doesn't seem to have meaning in the English language.

[peterc005]

Here's the link, but no word on the results:

Gregsons - Auctions - MASSIVE AIRVAN AIRCRAFT AUCTION - CAMPAIGN B (http://www.gregsons.com.au/auction/90/)

Gregsons - Home (http://www.gregsons.com.au/)

[sarge75]

Not everything is about you Sprocket.

Shall we make new rules that any company that get government help is banned from looking for overseas investors, maybe we should just shut companies down if they have received government help, can't get local backing and are selling to foreigners.

Brilliant.

[Me_3]

Airvans were purchased by MAF, and will be making their way back to Mareeba sometime in the future I would assume.

[VH-XXX]

My apologies... I was harping on about how I was reliably informed that the Airvan would not be produced in India.

Seems I may have been incorrectly informed :cool:


From ABC.net.au

Latrobe Valley-based aircraft manufacturer GippsAero is refusing to comment on a decision to produce its GA8 Airvan in India.

On Monday, several Indian media outlets reported that GippsAero's Indian parent company, Mahindra Aerospace, planned to build the Airvan in its Indian factory in two years.

GippsAero is based at the Latrobe Regional Airport and has received millions of dollars of Government grants to upgrade its facilities, to enable it to produce the Airvan locally.

It leases the site from the Latrobe City Council.
A statement from the council says plans to build the eight-seater aircraft in India, only refer to additional manufacturing capacity.

However, when contacted by the ABC, GippsAero refused to comment on whether the GA8 would continue to be built in the Latrobe Valley.

[sprocket check]

ahhh, so it's not just google heresay after all....

Hey sarge, many if not most of the great Australian inventions and patents are actually foreign owned or sold off.

There are many sad things about this situation, but I think you need to pull your head out of the sand. First thing that you might think about is that in this country we no longer have a rule of law, we are now ruled BY law. I would be one of the last to propose a new law, statute or regulation.

sc