Lamborne Hold and Heathrow

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

Whilst it is a no brainer that BA get priority into EGLL, has anyone here got a direct in for the ILS(27) from LOGAN?.

I flow yesterday into LHR and we were on the hold for about 15 minutes when we came in on time, initial was deviate right off LOGAN, report Abeam and join the 'pain-in-the-arse" Lamborne.

I'd like to know how they treat you folks; for the moment, i'd like to keep my airline code under wraps.

Though i must admit, this for me was a flight into EGLL after a long break, it was pissing off to see how screwed up traffic management is in LHR.

[A and C]

BA don't get any priority in the London FIR it is just the fact that they are one of the largest operators at LHR and to the casual observer it might seem that way.

The UK ATC services are one of the few places in the world that treat all traffic equally unlike some I could mention.

I now fly for a non UK airline and find no diference in the way London ATC treat us than when I was flying for UK registered airlines........... The quality of the service is always very high.

[WHBM]

It's a nonsense to suggest that BA "get priority" at EGLL. This is not some banana republic where such things happen with the major based operators, which you maybe have experience of elsewhere.

When there are periods of disruption BA are the FIRST to get cancellations, principally of their domestic services, even when others get no cancellations at all, and invariably end up with a greater percentage of cancellations at such times than anyone else.

From where I currently am there is quite a reasonable view from the ground of the traffic over NE London, and you do indeed see people getting a straight-in from time to time when quieter. I believe the runways at Heathrow from 0600 to 2200 are among the most saturated in the world. If you want something done about it maybe you can drop a note out of the DV window as you pass overhead Parliament when you finally get your approach. Alternatively, get your company to use Stansted - you can see it on the right hand side as you approach LAM. Nice and quiet.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

BA Does get priority for London; we were arrival and departure.

We were lined up no 3, and at the two LINKS, two BA's departed before us; when everyone knew it the next to leave was us.

Interestingly, BA was not on the hold; they were cleared on Vectors.

CDG gives priority to AF, but they dont shove you on the hold mate.

[WhyByFlier]

This is not some banana republic where such things happen with the major based operators, which you maybe have experience of elsewhere.

"Cough, cough" Spain "cough"

We were lined up no 3, and at the two LINKS, two BA's departed before us; when everyone knew it the next to leave was us.

If you're a heavy and they weren't then perhaps it was for flow management. Perhaps they had slots and you were early. Perhaps it was mere coincidence. There is a reason why the word exists!

Don't go to a Spanish airport! You'll top yourself! (Unless you are flying for a Spanish airline).

[falconeasydriver]

LHR, best ATC in the world....

Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday or Thursday....the place runs at 98-100% capacity all the time, the day of the week doesn't matter.
As for how we are treated, it's an A380 destination these days for EK, so maybe someone will answer that, on the 777 we still go there on the freighter and its a pleasure....LHR does what it says on the tin...plan for it and its easier than anywhere else I've been.

[Dropp the Pilot]

You might want to choose a different handle. It appears to say it all. Three times.

[wheelie my boeing]

It is not a simple first come first serve at LHR. I work for BA, we frequently wait whilst Saudi or AA or other airlines jump in front of us. Especially when another heavy has just departed. It's not about who arrived at the RW first, it's all about how they can get the maximum aircraft airborne as quickly as possible.

As for vectors, poor knowledge on your part. Firstly you don't know whether they slowed up very early - something that does NOT affect your place in the queue... With ATC permission if you come back to min clean after you enter UK airspace with a big delay then you don't lose your place in the queue. It could be for various other reasons too. If you want to see blatant priority then there are many places I could suggest, LHR is not one of them.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

not Heavy Flier, i dont think a 320 can be called heavy; apart from a pissed off American at the back, we waited for 4 BA's, departing from both LINK positions.

Might i mention we were slowed down before to get in an "Arab" in as well?;

Dep was over Dover which is fine, that's well planned and managed, but why the FL 220 restriction, before Mastrict?;

And when you get into Mastrict, you asked to bloody expedite as if your arse was on fire.

Clearly, the U.K's screwing up big time and now they dont have the darn decency to call and coordinate with the next airspace, which is the pits.

Banana Republic!; your darn right is, dont get me started mate, what's left of the U.K now anyway?; what ever happened to the U.K we knew?; All the good guys left the U.K long back seeing mess there?

What's Friggen Chicken Tikka Masala? and Bangladouch's everywhere?; whilst i respect other cultures and the contribution they make, but we have lost all that we once stood for.

Maybe you folks dont know the U.K. i knew in the 80's. Irrespective of traffic and hold, they treated you with respect, no matter which flag you had on your tail.

[By George]

If you are not happy with EGLL ATC, then nothing will make you happy. Best ATC in the world with no, even close, seconds.

[Hotel Tango]

RETARD, you ARE a complete RETARD. You insult the integrity of UK air traffic controllers and you are talking complete and absolute tosh based on obvious zero knowledge of how ATC works. Get yourself educated pronto. :ugh:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I think "Retard" is a highly appropriate name. I was a Heathrow controller for 31 years and I can assure you that BA gets no priority despite what you might think. You simply have no idea how the system functions. You might be number x at the hold and someone departs ahead of you from an intersection but that is very common, not because of the airline but because at the time is was tactically good ATC procedure to "fill a slot". The UK ATC system is utterly fair and impartial.

You talk so much garbage I really wonder if you are a troll. If you really are a pilot then please God don't ever, EVER let me fly with you.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

This garbage has appeared elsewhere. Best ignored.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

You got a problem mate, you need to sort yourself out. I think the desert sand's got to you. Your wheels are hot too, try the break fan!.

Obviously your not picking up the signals here, owing to LHR's arsed traffic handling, its no surprise that in the last 4 years around 10 airlines have chosen to fly to Luton and Stanstead and we arent talking Low Cost Airlines.

Isn't that a message clear enough?.

[falconeasydriver]

LHR, best ATC in the world....

Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday or Thursday....the place runs at 98-100% capacity all the time, the day of the week doesn't matter.
As for how we are treated, it's an A380 destination these days for EK, so maybe someone will answer that, on the 777 we still go there on the freighter and its a pleasure....LHR does what it says on the tin...plan for it and its easier than anywhere else I've been.


Cut and paste from my ME thread post.

I second everything else spoken on here, retard, either you are a troll or you have very little working knowledge of the place, in which case you need to do a bit of reading as you sound like you should know better.
BA don't get priority, a good % of departures are slot restricted, and then it's a case of the controllers maximising the flow...as BA make up the vast % of flights out of LHR, then it stands to reason that a BA airframe is more likely to be shoehorned into the departure sequence, QED.

[EastofKoksy]

I used to work at London ATC and would bet my pension that BA does not get priority. As far as ATC is concerned you all pay the same charges so all get the same service.

Heathrow is so busy all day that a straight-in would only be offered very early in the morning or late in the evening. I am not sure what the circumstances were but maybe you had to hold because you arrived before 0600 and did not have an airport runway slot until after that time. The BA aircraft behind you was probably able to land before 0600.

As far as departures are concerned, exactly when you are cleared for take-off depends on the other aircraft their vortex wake category and which SID they are following. There has to be at least 2 minutes between aircraft following the same or similar SIDs e.g WOBUN/BPK, CPT/SAM.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

Heathrow, interesting that you mentioned you worked for ATC, any reason why you cant coordinate with Mastrict for for higher or is that below your assumed dignity?; and you prefer us to meander over the English Channel to be someone else's responsibility?

I love the Brit Ego, when sadly there's nothing left of the UK anymore.

Facts are facts, CDG gives priority to AF, Franfurt for LH and LHR for you know who.

Truth is your too :mad: arrogant to admit it that your CNS/ATM Service is a bunch of :mad: and have no clue what you do with it.

Try flying into JFK, OMDB or Singapore for that matter.

The icing on the cake was yesterday's ATIS; "...We will not be responsible for wing-tip clearence". I :mad: ATIS has a legal disclaimer?!...!

So let me get this stright, your controllers can fiddle-:mad: me around the airport at their discretion and because they cant relate to my aircraft category and route, ".Hard Cheese".

Bury your pride to save your hide.

Period!

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

Reposting this here from the Forum.


I love the Brit Ego, when sadly there's nothing left of the UK anymore.

Facts are facts, CDG gives priority to AF, Franfurt for LH and LHR for you know who.

Truth is your too friggen arrogant to admit it that your CNS/ATM Service is a bunch of bollacks and have no clue what you do with it.

Try flying into JFK, OMDB or Singapore for that matter.

The icing on the cake was yesterday's ATIS; "...We wont be held responsible for wing-tip clearence". A Friggen ATIS has a legal disclaimer?!...!. When did that happen?.

So let me get this straight, your controllers can fiddle-f**K me around the airport at their discretion and because they cant relate to my aircraft category and route, ".Hard Cheese".

Bury your pride to save your hide.

[falconeasydriver]

Try flying into JFK, OMDB or Singapore for that matter

I do, on a more regular basis than I'm betting you do, and you are talking horse manure....
Actually come think of it, retard is quite an apt description...you sound like a rather disaffected antipodean.

[kenparry]

Calling a spade a spade? No, you are much more rude than that. I was never based at LHR, but did occasionally operate there, not for BA, by the way. But I support strongly the view that London ATC is impartial and of absolutely top quality. Retard, you have the wrong end of the stick entirely. Despite what you think, UK ATC does not gang up on you - or on anyone else. Like others above, I have seen national priority in other countries; one blatant example has been named above.

[despegue]

UK ATC is the best in Europe, of that I am certain.
However, I am also certain that the UK IS a Banana Republic and UK security is the worst in Europedone by circusmonkeys.

[Sygyzy]

It's all right RETARD, I've managed to phone your mum and she'll be along directly to collect you.

I'm afraid that someone else will have to collect the toys later.

[Linerider]

Whoa! Someone is in a grumpy mood. What was her name?

[rdr]

this "Brittania still rules the waves" thing has been going on for years.
on arrival, and departure.
one of the ways around this shameless, and totally unprofessional conduct, is to request for your sequence. this may prevent more come alongs pushed in front of you as they appear.
they seem to have a "treatment index," one for the Brits, then the yanks, followed by the "friendly Europeans." ( scratch the Southern and Eastern ones,) and then the brownies.
you'll notice the number of guys jumping at you on this thread. but NO ONE
denies it

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

and for the record, slots are given and allocated.

Ground and clearence clearly stated our departure not, and sequence, so no problem there.

We were 2nd in the arrival sequence, and were not stupid, i monitored what was going on and i know who got in before us.

So lets cut to the chase, yes, you have slots but LHR does not keep them. A friggen Air India gets expedited taxi and crossing and were asked to pussy foot around the airport.

Our taxi time yesterday was 30 minutes!. does ground deal with a slots as well?!.!.... Get a life guys, facts are facts, i got the most inappropriate taxi routing and i know what i went though.

[NigelOnDraft]

Heathrow, interesting that you mentioned you worked for ATC, any reason why you cant coordinate with Mastrict sic for for higher or is that below your assumed dignity?; and you prefer us to meander over the English Channel to be someone else's responsibility?You clearly are spoiling for a fight, so not sure why I bother to reply.

But in the unlikely event you do actually fly an aircraft in/out of LHR, rather than just sit down the back, maybe next time you could check who you are talking to prior handover to Maastricht. I think you'll find you left LHR's freq's sometime back ;)

[Jenson Button]

Retard are you Al Bakar in disguise ?

This soooo smells like a troll. If you have flown into the majority of major hubs around the world, then you will understand the complexity of airspace, the hard work our cousins in ATC do, the level of professionalism that the vast majority of UK controllers work to and the extent to which everyone into lhr and the other London airports is treated with equality. Over many years of lhr operations there have been times when there have been straight in approaches, visual approaches, a few snatches (oh yes) and considerable amounts of holding.

What a load of codswallop.

Back to shredding the tyres

[falconeasydriver]

Keep digging retard, my taxi was that long in DXB yesterday, before the fog :ugh:

[Jetblu]

I offer no advice. My contribution is purely as a bystander, who has had the best laugh in a few days. Thanks guys. :D::D:{

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

THis really isn't a pissing contest on who gives prioirty to who; and from the likes of it, i'm glad you folks made it one and the message is clear.

You feel the same way about JFK?; well, i feel the same way about LHR, so that makes us even.

Fly over to Frankfurt and see how things are done there and i dont tihink they isn't anyone better than the Germans when it comes to sytematic, process driven traffic management.

In short, they know what they're doing, and clearly you dont and are to arrogant to take criticism, which really is sad.

[Stallspincrashburn]

I really can't be bothered to read beyond the first couple of posts by Mr. Retard (there's a clue there, isn't there?).

I've spent my entire airline career to date operating from LHR. so far that's 14 years with BMA/bmi and one year with BA. So for most of my career BA has been my (friendly) rival. Additionally, my fiancee of fourteen years is a London TMA controller with NATS.

I can categorically state that BA have never, in my opinion, received preferential treatment over me, or anybody else.

[Bearcat]

World wide exposure to atc here .....my dealings with LHR ATC have been 2nd to none over the years.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

Nigel, yes, exactly my point, your handed over by London, the glass ceiling is 220, well atlest everytime i fly and you need to start the whole process again with MAS, which is annoying because your being spaced before another entering traffic, when i'd be happy to be at 220 entering with MAS.

Dover Dep wants you initally at 6000, not an inch above, for us it was endless till we again got vectored, busting up fuel

This conversation will never never ending.

lets agree to disagree, and keep it there.

I know several pilots who'd echo the same view on LHR.

Clearly, you guys dont friggen get it. And if you can be this ignorant, you got to be the bloody troll.

here are the stats, the most common statement made in all the friggen threads here.

1. UK is the Best ATC in the World.
2. LHR is the Best!.
3. We are the world's busiest airport!.
4. Long live the Queen!.

Get a friggen life! pop quiz, the U.K has more illegal immigrants than any country in the world, your outnumbered, live as the minority you are!.

PArdon the harshness, but i cant believe a simple 'query' gets so bloody defensive.

[Basil]

The retard is a troll - ignore.

[expediteoff]

Hey retard-
WHY on earth would EGLL atc give priority to BA??

[Megaton]

BA get no, repeat no, priority into Heathrow. In fact, it's a continual irritation that at every destination on our networks, local carriers get priority yet at our home base there is a painfully level playing field.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

"this "Brittania still rules the waves" thing has been going on for years.
on arrival, and departure.
one of the ways around this shameless, and totally unprofessional conduct, is to request for your sequence. this may prevent more come alongs pushed in front of you as they appear.
they seem to have a "treatment index," one for the Brits, then the yanks, followed by the "friendly Europeans." ( scratch the Southern and Eastern ones,) and then the brownies.
you'll notice the number of guys jumping at you on this thread. but NO ONE
denies it"


Thanks for this!; i'll keep this in mind the next time i'm in there.

[Yarra]

"PULL UP PULL UP" "TERRAIN TERRAIN" .....ooops too late... he flew into a mountain of logic and rational argument......

[Juan Tugoh]

Can we please stop the profanity. It does not make your case stronger, rather the opposite and it also reflects poorly on the person that need to resort to such poor rhetorical tools - not to mention demonstrating a surprising immaturity in a professional aviator.

[chillie]

Not a discussion I want toget involved with BUT pilots who think controllers give priority to local airlines need to get a better idea about how ATC works.

I have worked at quite anumber of airports, some may even be considered a bit "third world",and at none has the local airline operator been given priority.

Giving the correct priorityto traffic is one of the most important factors when trying to achieve an efficient flow of traffic.

Sometimes these priorities maybe applied incorrectly, and this will usually be due an inexperienced controller, someone under training or maybe someone who is just not that competent.

[Msunduzi]

So much anger over the perception that someone "jumped the queue"?

I really hope you are a Tesco delivery driver. If you were a pilot, I think you would be past your sell-by date, I would certainly not like to be on board an aircraft with someone with the displayed state of mine at the controls.

Worrying thougt.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

its shocking that everyone jumps to defend it, and yet no has the guts to deny it.

I like the way i was called a 'troll' 6 times and yet no one has anything construtive to say, except a few which toed the line of 'constructiveness' and was brought back by the false Brit Pride.

Lets agree to disagree then.

I know what saw and lets keep it that way.

Do pardon the aggressiveness, this takes the cake on how defensive guys can get on London, obviously, someone's hiding something.

Its no wonder that the British economy is in shambles which obviously is rooted by heaps of arrogance and attitude.

your living in what psychologists call the "Denial" phase; you need help and Fast!.

thanks.

[360BakTrak]

Why is this even in the 'Rumour & News' section? Would it not be better in the 'ATC' forum? You might get an answer there? But I guess you already know the facts Mr Retard, as you have so eloquently demonstrated. :ugh:

[EDMJ]

what ever happened to the U.K we knew?... we have lost all that we once stood for...........

Indeed.

[mcdhu]

Wot? BA hasn't ever had priority at LHR?

There was always the case of the BAC 1-11 (VY?) which always got priority after it was left pointing towards Boscombe Down one day and forgotten while on vectors for 09L/R (in my day).
If anyone has the tale which was posted here a few years ago in an audio file, please repost. It might lighten up the thread and make the retard laugh.

[captjns]

Hmmm.... Jeddah... RETARD RETARD RETARD...:rolleyes:


One could say the same flying in Jeddah, and Riyadh too. Saudia, at time gets priority over other carriers.

Conspiracy or retalitation of some type:}? What ya think RETARD?:E

BTW... London Control... Tops:ok:

[Fairsky]

Retard,
as bak bak has said you should post in the ATC section. Someone there can give you an overall picture of the likely reasons. Most importantly a written complaint from your airline, logging the exact details, will most certainly trigger a response. ATC take that type of complaint VERY seriously and would likely include review of r/t & radar tapes. So you'd better make sure that you're justified and not just blowing off steam.

[falconeasydriver]

Wot? BA hasn't ever had priority at LHR?

There was always the case of the BAC 1-11 (VY?) which always got priority after it was left pointing towards Boscombe Down one day and forgotten while on vectors for 09L/R (in my day)

Surely West Drayton could hear the aforementioned 1-11 converting fuel to noise...and merely hoped it would quieten down a bit as it headed out towards Boscombe:E

[250 kts]

RRR,

You suggest that you went into the LAM hold for 15 minutes whilst someone else got vectors for a straight in. Highly unlikely unless the other aircraft has a problem and has requested a priority approach which does happen occasionally. you may not have been aware that an aircraft had an issue as it may well have been on a different frequency to yours.

The workload increases significantly if we don't handle the traffic in pretty much the way it is presented to us from adjoining units. The sector which handles traffic into LAM from the east is adjoined by 9 other sectors/units so the chances of us doing anything that resembles preference is well nigh impossible.

You say your departure was on a DVR. IIRC there is a requirement for 3 minutes between DVR departures. So if the one ahead of you at the full length was also a DVR then it would make sense to use the intersections to get 2 away on different SIDs. I'm sure you are aware but this is known as maximising the runway capacity.

I don't actually undertsand what you are talking about when you talk about 220 and Maastricht as their airspace doesn't start until above FL245.

I hope this helps to alleviate your fears that we are anything but fair to all airspace users.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Maintain minimum clean speed and join the lamborne hold at 6000(!)>>

It's the Lambourne hold actually. When did you last join it at 6000 ft? Yet again you have displayed your total ignorance of UK airspace.

[ManaAdaSystem]

LHR is one of the easiest airports in the world to fly into. Plan for one or two turns over LAM, some vectors, and you are done. While you are in the hold you can normally view other aircraft holding as well, including BA.
Wingtip clearance is not assured? Are you a cadet or something? That has been on the ATIS since my first flight there, some 25 years ago.

[Cough]

Retard...

My standard day is... 30 mins taxy out, held low on departure (worst SID is DVR...due to the OCK/BIG holds) 15 mins hold on arrival, with a long S pattern to final.

You being shafted? - nope you are being treated the same as everybody else.

On taxy out, the TWR controller is shifting everybody around trying to achieve the max departure rate as possible. Bunching heavies together is normal, as is trying to achieve the ideal flow of northbound vs southbound departures. Sometimes you win, sometimes not-all for the max efficiency! After a while you can almost guess what will happen next, but you have to appreciate where everybody is going, hence what SID they are on.

And if you get called a troll when you are unwilling to listen, so be it!

[fullforward]

I've been operating to LHR for the latest 20 years and this is probably the more professional ATC is the world, hands down.

I'm surprised with the garbage here! This "Retard...." is a 3 times retarded!

Hi mods, let's have a better usage of the bits here.

[Heathrow Harry]

Anyone who flies in /out of LHR on a semi-regular basis knows that you are amazed when you DON'T have to hold (BA or not) - ATC have to juggle heavy's and lights, they also have to keep an eye on trafic needing to cross runways on the ground to & from the terminals so the whole of the airport isn't one enormous parking lot

It's not an easy job but I think they get it right most of the time TBH

[EatMyShorts!]

I would never go that far and call London's ATC "the best of the world"! There is no "best of the world". I would place them into the category "among the best of the world". Don't forget busy airports and airspaces with excellent ATC like Frankfurt, Munich, Zurich, Geneva, Copenhagen, Amsterdam etc.. They are all in the same group as London/UK. And, Retard, possibly you have been put at the end of the queue because of your limited command of the English language (to protect other pilots/planes) or, you just thought that you were put at the end of the queue, because you did not understand it better. After all I do not believe that you are a real airline pilot.

[BOAC]

I would second jetblu in thanking R_R_R for brightening up an otherwise dull day. Posts worthy of JetBlast - hilarious.

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

Well I'm with the Retarded one on this.
Don't these Atcos realise the work involved in reaching up to the glareshield and winding back the speed? Are they not aware of how exhausting it is pressing a couple of buttons on the box to execute the LAM hold?
As to having to sit at the hold for a few minutes while some toffy nosed Nigel jumps the sequence from an intersection- It's akin to six years in a Siberian gulag ! :ugh:

[Ninja Controller]

I hope I was on duty on the Lambourne sector when you had your gripe. Just do what you're told like a good little boy and don't let Nigel worry you.:E

[fullforward]

"......And, Retard, possibly you have been put at the end of the queue because of your limited command of the English language (to protect other pilots/planes) or, you just thought that you were put at the end of the queue, because you did not understand it better. After all I do not believe that you are a real airline pilot."

PARFAIT!:D

[fullforward]

Stop listening to that sad clown, boys!
The retarded had already his 15 min of fame.