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cldrvr
10th May 2013, 16:43
Interesting take on the IMF report on Spain.

Spain is officially insolvent: get your money out while you still can ? Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100024476/spain-is-officially-insolvent-get-your-money-out-while-you-still-can/)

OFSO
10th May 2013, 16:51
I came out of the apartment block yesterday where our dentist has his practice on the marina quayside. Outside were parked a new Jaguar sports car I didn't know existed, a Mercedes S class, and a Mercedes C-class (?) banana, one BMW seven series, an Audi sports car of some description and a couple of humble Peugeot salons (plus a nice Peugeot sports car with the double bubble roof) and a large Citröen saloon.

All these cars had one thing in common. Guess ? French registration.

I think that this is the 'new EU'. You are of one nationality and are registered there as resident, you maybe have a small apartment in your own country - but in a convenient neighbouring country where you are a visitor and "merely on holiday" you have your luxury villa and keep your expensive car.

Many thanks to those ministers whose countries signed up to the Schengen Agreement which did away with border controls !

LookingForAJob
10th May 2013, 17:15
Not so much Schengen.

Wouldn't have these problems if they had set some proper rules for States using the Euro. Or probably even if they'd followed the not very good rules they did set up.

AlpineSkier
10th May 2013, 17:31
There was on last night's SE local news, a feature about a French village close to Geneva where, apparently, lots of Swiss who owned "second" homes were inhabiting them full-time whilst working and paying tax as if full-time Swiss residents ( using parents addresses etc ).

They did this because the cost of living is much lower in France whilst taxation is much lower in Switzerland. The local French mayor was much against this , because in the border area there is a complicated arrangement whereby Geneva pays a lot of tax revenues to bordering French communes on the rationale that they pay the residential costs ( schools, hospitals etc )for many French residents who work in Geneva and are essential to the economy there. These Swiss "cuckoos" were somehow unweighting the tax-flow ( in some way that I cannot calculate ) and were therefore going to be discouraged. It will be interesting to hear in future if this was successful.

airship
10th May 2013, 17:47
From cldrvr's link: Jeremy Warner, assistant editor of The Daily Telegraph, is one of Britain's leading business and economics commentators... :*

Please do "wake us all up" when Jeremy Warner "as an individual" (or the Daily telegraph newspaper) ever possess the credentials to take over from the more established credit-rating agencies like Standard & Poor, Moody, Fitch etc.... :ok:

Just more "anti-Europe / EU and Eurozone" rantings, without any substance, IMHO... :zzz:

OFSO
10th May 2013, 18:33
a French village close to Geneva

Don't know whether it's still true but there used to be an accord between CH and F legitimising cross-border workers. Possibly the EU has put a stop to this sort of EU/non-EU agreement....

cldrvr
10th May 2013, 18:35
possess the credentials to take over from the more established credit-rating
agencies like Standard & Poor, Moody, Fitch


Well, it is a good thing then that the rating agencies have Spain one notch above junk.

Ratings agencies are usually behind the curve so one notch down, at junk status, is probably where Spain is right now.

toffeez
10th May 2013, 18:51
Not wishing you any ill, far from it, but do you ever wonder what your house will be worth when the "nueva peseta" arrives?

racedo
10th May 2013, 19:20
I could sell my house (indoor pool, four bedrooms, on a double plot) for half that and still make a profit.

Get a million, sell and then rent.:)

cuefaye
10th May 2013, 20:48
Good advice

AlpineSkier
10th May 2013, 21:34
Don't know whether it's still true but there used to be an accord between CH and F legitimising cross-border workers

OFSO

This is still there and is in fact at the basis of my post, but it depends (legally/taxily at least ) on people declaring where they really live.

cldrvr
10th May 2013, 22:20
Foreign bank owned deposits with US banks at an all time high. If your own bank won't even hold its cash in the EU why should you.

Thomas coupling
10th May 2013, 23:04
Can't wait to leave the sinking ship...................

mikedreamer787
11th May 2013, 01:45
Since Cyprus is now the precedent with IMF, ECB and EU approval there's
no reason why Spanish banks can't do a hit and run on customer accounts.

onetrack
11th May 2013, 03:00
I'm always suspicious when a place is full of new cars. Pouring money into new cars is not a sign of prosperity, it's a sign that money is being poorly directed. New cars costing big $$$'s (or Euros) are scrap metal in 10 yrs time.

The billions invested in new cars are far better invested in items that assure a nations prosperity in the future - housing, energy supplies (and particularly cheaper energy supplies), clean water, infrastructure such as rail networks, important transportation corridors, communications improvements.

I'm reminded of when I was an agricultural contractor and I canvassed farmers regularly for work. Anytime I pulled up a farm and there was a new expensive car (or 2), plus a host of "boys toys" - boats, quadbikes, new tractors, new harvesters, and all the latest technology devices, in the sheds - I could guarantee that farmer would tell me straight out, he had no money to spend on vital farm improvements such as improved water supplies or drainage (that would have increased his farm returns).

However, I could drive into a farm where an elderly farmer would have a carefully-maintained older vehicle or vehicles - a modest amount of farm plant that was older but still very viable - no "boys toys" or other flippant luxuries - and that farmer (who often appeared less-than prosperous) would immediately say, "Yes, I'd like to spend $20,000 this year on improvements you can do". :)

I often found that many of these old farmers who appeared less than prosperous, and who never outlaid huge sums on the latest in impressive manufactured items, were the ones - who after they'd died - were found to have sums running into hundreds of thousands of dollars, relatively untouched, in cheque or investment accounts.

Prudent and wise expenditure is directed towards and invested in the future, whether it be personal or a countrys finances.

Currently, it appears that many of the EU countries with financial problems, have a problem with a substantial deficit in tax receipts, resulting from serious tax evasion by high flyers, that is basically fraud, not tax minimisation.
A lot of these countries are going to nail these tax frauds to improve their finances - and they're doing it with inside information from low-level people inside tax havens who are seeing that fraud being perpetrated.

Just one of the information sources from a Swiss whistleblower has provided the IRS, HMRC and the ATO with so much information in relation to Swiss account tax fraud, that it's occupying several hundred people over several years, to examine it all.

The basic problem is that all tax depts are in agreement with tax minimisation - but many people with offshore investments indulge in tax fraud, which is aimed at ensuring the person avoids paying the going rate of tax in any country.
The "Red Cross" tax fraud is a classic, whereby a taxpayers claims the offshore account is for the benefit of the Red Cross, when it is not, and the taxpayer is the actual beneficiary of the offshore monies, due to a huge "round robin" of companies, trusts, and other entities, that are held by associates. Other offshore accounts designed to avoid tax, are just merely hidden from tax authorities.

The tax depts of the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, are targeting the substantial numbers of accounting and legal people who promote these tax fraud schemes - because, without these people, the tax frauds are far less able to be perpetrated.

If the EU countries who are currently in financial dire straits, carried out similar raids on European tax frauds, then we would see the financial situations of those countries improve considerably.
However, I doubt whether the tax depts of these countries have enough resources, desire or drive, to prosecute tax offenders that seriously deplete their respective countries tax receipts.

Sciolistes
11th May 2013, 03:56
onetrack,
I'm always suspicious when a place is full of new cars. Pouring money into new cars is not a sign of prosperity, it's a sign that money is being poorly directed. New cars costing big $$$'s (or Euros) are scrap metal in 10 yrs time.

The billions invested in new cars are far better invested in items that assure a nations prosperity in the future - housing, energy supplies (and particularly cheaper energy supplies), clean water, infrastructure such as rail networks, important transportation corridors, communications improvements.There you go, using common sense and logic again :\

Unfortunately, in this world, the only way to grow an economy is lend money and keep lending it. One great way of helping achieve this is to get the masses to pour their hard earned into short term goods like expensive cars, etc such that they pay them off then need the more up to date model. This is easy to do when such items become aspirational products :rolleyes:

You talk about investing in infrastructure. How you such projects be funded if not through taxation? Taxation is regressive, reduces the money supply, and thus will do more harm than good to any economy regardless of the infrastructure benefits...unless the education, transport and energy is of such a low cost that the populous is relieved of an otherwise huge financial burden. But I would counter this by asking when has the government ever been an effective processor of cash such that the output is more than the input?

I suspect, a very zero to single digit tax economy is the only way forward, obviously this can only work if individuals and corporations pay for everything they use in life: energy, water, education, healthcare, roads. Some of these functions must be provided by government organizations such that there is accountability, but the rest is open to the private sector.

The advantage is efficiency, growth and a significant increase in average wealth. The disadvantage is an increasing gap between rich and poor, probably a moderate increase of modal wealth, very little in the way of social benefits (this is a good and bad), the growth of the corporation in private lives. But the alternative is where we are now with no possibility for growth unless we deregulate the banking system further (with the attendant risks).
cheaper energy suppliesI agree, but this means coal, oil, gas and fracking. Some have understandable concerns that I personally do not share.

hellsbrink
11th May 2013, 04:21
Please do "wake us all up" when Jeremy Warner "as an individual" (or the Daily telegraph newspaper) ever possess the credentials to take over from the more established credit-rating agencies like Standard & Poor, Moody, Fitch etc....

Just more "anti-Europe / EU and Eurozone" rantings, without any substance, IMHO...

And, as usual, your "humble opinion" is so far off the mark it's not in the same county.

Let's face it, you proved, very quickly, that you did not even read the article for if you did you would have seen something at the start (my emphasis):

I'd not noticed this until someone drew my attention to it, but the latest IMF Fiscal Monitor, published last month, comes about as close to declaring Spain insolvent as you are ever likely to see in official analysis of this sort.

So I guess your next rant will be to tell us all that the IMF doesn't have the expertise or credentials that the credit agencies do.........

But, to be honest, how is this "news"? The second Spain had to ask for a bailout was the second bankruptcy was all but declared as it was clear that the country and it's banks did not have the funds to manage it's debts, and that, sounds like being bankrupt to me..........

OFSO
11th May 2013, 06:22
on people declaring where they really live.

In Spain, residence and tax residence are two different things and not even administered by the same authorities - who don't talk to each other. You can be one or the other or both or neither.

OFSO
11th May 2013, 08:18
European tax frauds and ofshore investment

It's a thread drift but evidence may be tested as it arises, so for the benefit of everyone, here goes with actual examples.

Imagine a couple living in the UK with two children. They are resident, ordinarily resident and tax resident there. The parents start an Offshore Trust, themselves as Settlors, the children as Beneficiaries. In the Trust is a one-premium insurance bond. Income arising inside the Trust is not liable to UK tax, and they can take out 5% of the total per year for twenty years without paying any UK tax. And that's all quite legal. Google it if you don't believe me.

They then move to France. Immediately anything they take out of the Trust is subject to French income tax, and income arising within the Trust is also subject to taxation even if no money is withdrawn.

Subsequently they move to Germany, where the Settlors can take out money from the Trust without incurring a tax liability but withdrawals for the Beneficiaries are subject to tax.

Finally the wife and children move back to the UK where the wife takes a job. The husband moves to Spain and becomes tax resident. Not only is income from the Trust now taxed at 10% when he withdraws funds, but his wife's job in the UK is subject to Spanish income tax (as is the house in the UK - worth 300k sterling - that she inherited from her granny, taxed by Spain at 40% IHT) because the Spanish treat the entire family as tax resident in Spain if the spouse lives there. (And yes I know that income tax is subject to double taxation treaties, but the Trust income, free of UK tax, isn't covered, nor is the IHT liability).

I could go on and tell you about taxation of offshore funds in other countries but I've made my point: since there is no single tax system for the EU and never will be, we have utter chaos where the sheep get fleeced and it behooves anyone with any intelligence to ensure he or she pays as little tax as possible while breaking no laws.

Little wonder that so many EU citizens are moving their tax residence to the UK.

Flying Binghi
11th May 2013, 08:31
Hmmm... i've read through the thread. Mighta missed it though i dont see no mention of all the billions of dollars Spain has wasted on the global warming scam via solar panels, wind power and sundry other dim witted 'carbon' projects..:hmm:








.

Thomas coupling
11th May 2013, 09:32
For what it's worth:
My experience of the Germans tells me that they will grow tired of the disintegrating edifice they helped devise. They will pull back and cut off aid to those third world (economy) countries such as the PIGS and possibly even France (who are technically bust anyway).
The EU will implode and fragment - the first few who leave will set the scene for others to do the same once they realise there is life on the other side.

germany will then 'choose' its partners and set off on a new relationship with much tighter fiscal rules. The rest will fade into obscurity like so many other backward countries and live a frugal life style.

Normal survival rules really: The rich will get richer and the poor will make do.

IB4138
11th May 2013, 10:05
You mean we will get back to how Europe used to be, before some towels on the sunbeds at dawn merchants invented the EU, the euro and all inclusive holidays.

Oh I do hope so!

Capetonian
11th May 2013, 10:12
We will show our passports at borders. There won't be free movement of criminals across borders.

We will travel with Deutschmarks, Pesetas, Schillings, Gulden, Escudos, Koruna, Markka, different types of Francs, Lira, Drachma. Apart from the last two, what bliss!

There won't be an extra layer of taxation and bureaucracy on everything. That building in Brussels can be turned into a memorial to idiocy, rather like the Communist museum in Budapest, and the politicians there can disappear up their own back passages.

My only regret, and it's a big one, about seeing the EU disappear is that I would miss Nigel Farage's performances railing against it.

SMT Member
11th May 2013, 10:49
Many thanks to those ministers whose countries signed up to the Schengen Agreement which did away with border controls ! Got sweet FA to do with Schengen, or the EU for that matter. Taxation, unless you failed to notice, is not common throughout the EU and some EU member states have very strict rules when it comes to residency and taxation. I recently accepted a position in Copenhagen, and considered living across the bridge in Sweden. Reasons being that tax is a bit lower, housing a bit lower and cars at around 1/3 the price of Denmark. However, and here's the killer, if I did that the rules between Denmark and Sweden says I'll pay my taxes where I earn my money, so that'll be in Denmark. Furthermore, Denmark has rules saying that as a non-resident you can only drive your foreign registered car 30 days a year in Denmark. As a resident of Denmark you are not allowed to drive a foreign registered car, except for transit journeys (e.g. rent a car in Sweden, drive it straight across Denmark and down to Germany. You are not even allowed to swing by your own residence).

There is nothing stopping Spain from doing the same.

TSR2
11th May 2013, 11:22
Good to see that your back. Trust you are ok.

El Grifo
11th May 2013, 12:03
So the EU is on the point of collapse, again.

The Euro is about to collapse, again.

Spain is reverting to the Peseta, again.

Didn't we have this discussion in 2012, or was it 2011.

Repent, the end is nigh :ugh:

arcniz
11th May 2013, 12:59
One takes note of the contents of this thread with great interest.

Particularly notable, IMHO, are the comments by Sciolistes and OFSO, both distinguished by connection to recognizable frames for conceptual reference.

Splicing together a bunch of uncollimated and historically unfriendly cultures is a long shot at best. Throw in erratic, spoofed, and possibly also largely unmonitored economies, and one has the stuff of which comedy and tragedy can be made. For the final irony, add to that some sprouts of stuffed shirts in Bruxelles, and then top it with a virtual cherry representing the illusory affluence that seemed to come out of debt-binge euphoria in the early 2000's, which now has been written down to zip as poor accounting and self-deception.

One respectfully wishes to suggest another conceptual item of possible relevance -- possibly able to either make or break the outcome from whatever patchup fixing ball of string follows the present bolix.

The net of the concept is that this is now marks the first time in the history of humanity that a de-nuovo system with massive scope and effect has the opportunity for conception, deployment, and application for use in a fully-computerized Europe.

A single system "product" can and should be devised, built, delivered and applied as a tool that implements de facto policy uniformity at street-level throughout the EU, much as street-corner banking boxes deliver fiscal access and controls to general populations across a vast geography.

The EgovU System that one hereby proposes can and will serve - incrementally and with respect for local history and precedent - to gradually nudge a new methodology for counting and accounting, taxing and collecting, into every nook and cranny of the continent.

Established and proven Systems Companies from within the EU and perhaps elsewhere will devise, perfect, deploy and operate the System under guidance from appropriate political and bureaucratic agencies in each geographic area.

Political argument and agreement will continue to be the means by which rules for the functioning of the process will be defined and regulated for regions, areas, localities, and similar geographic or other categorical subdivisions of populace affected, but the presence of the actual, official, physical systems that accurately, accountably, and definitively implement those rules at "Street Level" will be the glue that can pull the history and interests of so many peoples and places into a common methodology for the day-to day operation of financial transactions, public policies, transactions and rules that are equally operable on all parties and persons involved.

Plenty room will remain for politicians to continue arguing and improvising as to the specific nature and details of those common rules, so the games and ploys can go on forever possibly, but the technology layer proposed here will help them to be uniform and concurrent in effect everywhere that the local people agree to participate, so this methodology will glue together the populace of the continent in converging toward fair sharing of their common miseries and joys.

In this conceptual form, the same general system might also be used to export the best practices of EU-ness in one form or another to localities anywhere in the world, with the ultimate step being a global layer of .gov that has political accountability to local interests, but still is able to deploy the best-known methods and practices for high-functioning civil society to any and all qualified and willing subscribers.


:)

airship
11th May 2013, 13:32
Anyone here up for a wager?

I'll bet 10 Chinese yawns that:

1) The £ sterling GBP would disappear before the € EUR ever does.
2) The $ USD will disappear almost immediately after the £ sterling GBP becomes worthless.
3) If (or when) events 1 and 2 above come to pass, the Spanish will not have sufficient time to restore the Spanish peseta, before any demise of the €.
4) Everyone here in the 1st World still left alive (after all the death and destruction caused in the wake of the demise of all these paper currencies) will wish they had some "hard-currency" bank-notes issued by say China, or just physically-held gold (as opposed to "gold deposits" held at banks etc.).

BTW, El Grifo, nice to see you about here again...?! :ok:

OFSO
11th May 2013, 14:27
as a non-resident you can only drive your foreign registered car 30 days a year in Denmark.

There is nothing stopping Spain from doing the same.

But there IS ! The EU Regulations specifically state SIX MONTHS as the maximum period you can have any EU Member State registered car in another Member State without re-registering.

Interpretation:
German police in Hessen, for example, date the six months as commencing from your last trip back to the country where the car is registered. Spain likewise: hence the French cars parked outside 80% of the houses in my community make a trip across the border every few months and can LEGALLY stay registered in France. (Source: my local town hall quoting EU regulations to me).

Capetonian
11th May 2013, 14:35
The '6 month' law is virtually unenforceable as (apart from the UK where a shipping or Eurotunnel ticket would evidence the journey) there is no proof or record of a car crossing a border, unless all movements are video recorded and those videos kept for six months. This seems an unlikely scenario as even if it was meant to happen, it is doubtful if anyone other than the Germanic/Benelux nations could make it work.

lomapaseo
11th May 2013, 14:37
arcniz

You may have something there but I haven't found it yet and gave up looking :)

El Grifo
11th May 2013, 15:20
BTW, El Grifo, nice to see you about here again..

Not entirely sure that I ever left really, did I ??

hellsbrink
11th May 2013, 16:27
The '6 month' law is virtually unenforceable as (apart from the UK where a shipping or Eurotunnel ticket would evidence the journey) there is no proof or record of a car crossing a border, unless all movements are video recorded and those videos kept for six months. This seems an unlikely scenario as even if it was meant to happen, it is doubtful if anyone other than the Germanic/Benelux nations could make it work.

Given the amount of traffic that passes through Belgium alone every day, and the small matter of there being no infrastructure for cameras, etc, at border crossings, except at SOME crossing points between Belgium and other countries but they are few and far between with probably less than 20 old "customs posts" between Belgium and other countries not demolished, it would be absolutely impossible to verify whether people were breaking the "6 month rule" or not.

The only way it could be done is to pull over, check and verify every single vehicle with foreign plates, and you can guess that would not only be an impossibility but would also be likely to fall foul of "freedom to travel" laws as well.

So all you can do is rely on the honesty of people, and I think we know how that works out.

racedo
11th May 2013, 18:49
But there IS ! The EU Regulations specifically state SIX MONTHS as the maximum period you can have any EU Member State registered car in another Member State without re-registering.

Interpretation:
German police in Hessen, for example, date the six months as commencing from your last trip back to the country where the car is registered. Spain likewise: hence the French cars parked outside 80% of the houses in my community make a trip across the border every few months and can LEGALLY stay registered in France. (Source: my local town hall quoting EU regulations to me).

Correct and nowt the Danes can do about it.

10 years ago a Danish colleague stopped by HM Plod who unhappy she had a Belgian License (she had lived there for 10 years). They demanded she surrender her license to them so they would send it to DVLA to get her a UK one. They claimed against the law as unable to put points on it.

They insisted she accompany them to police station, well she demanded them to take her there and then insisted senior duty officer be there to explain why his officers were ignorant of EU law. The Plods who stopped her called her an uppity bitch on way to station.

The first senior officer was originally patronisingly dismissive until she suggested using google and looking at DVLA. She knew she only needed to change it at 65.

2 original Plods got disciplinary and senior office was advised as to future conduct and she got a full apology in person from Chief Constable. Lady in question I reckon was descended from Vikings.

papabravowhiskey
11th May 2013, 20:25
as a non-resident you can only drive your foreign registered car 30 days a year in Denmark.

There is nothing stopping Spain from doing the same.

But there IS ! The EU Regulations specifically state SIX MONTHS as the maximum period you can have any EU Member State registered car in another Member State without re-registering.
Apologies for the thread drift ...
The appropriate EU legislation can be found here (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:51998PC0030:EN:HTML):
EUR-Lex - 51998PC0030 - EN (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:51998PC0030:EN:HTML)
There are still possibilities for anomalies: a primary case is the leeway given before a resident needs to re-register a foreign-registered vehicle: in France it is 30 days, whereas in the UK there is no official leeway at all.
However, there is a proposal to "simplify" the rules: see here (http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/automotive/motor-vehicle-registration/index_en.htm): Taking your car abroad in Europe ? fewer registration formalities - Automotive - Enterprise and Industry (http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/automotive/motor-vehicle-registration/index_en.htm)
which could cause problems for those with cars based at second homes.
PBW

onetrack
12th May 2013, 00:36
Arcniz - I gather from the sheer brilliance of your post, you already hold down a senior position in Brussels, formulating EU policy, rules, and regulations? :D

Vercingetorix
12th May 2013, 01:17
uncollimated?

collimate |ˈkɒlɪmeɪt|
verb [ trans. ]
make (rays of light or particles) accurately parallel : [as adj. ] ( collimated) a collimated electron beam.
• accurately align (an optical or other system).

probes
12th May 2013, 02:09
Arcniz - I gather from the sheer brilliance of your post, you already hold down a senior position in Brussels, formulating EU policy, rules, and regulations?
my guess - he's just a lawyer.
BUT I'd REALLY like to get a tiny pic (as a bigger one wouldn't probably be provided anyway?) with the expression on his face while writing them! :)

Metro man
12th May 2013, 04:34
The only way it could be done is to pull over, check and verify every single vehicle with foreign plates, and you can guess that would not only be an impossibility but would also be likely to fall foul of "freedom to travel" laws as well.

There could be cameras with automatic number plate recognition software installed at every border crossing throughout the EU, all connected up to a central database. It would cost a few billion but the bureaucrats would love it, another layer of control and regulation with increased tax revenue. Only people against it would be the average motorist.

hellsbrink
12th May 2013, 04:48
There could be cameras with automatic number plate recognition software installed at every border crossing throughout the EU, all connected up to a central database. It would cost a few billion but the bureaucrats would love it, another layer of control and regulation with increased tax revenue. Only people against it would be the average motorist.

Would only cost a few billion? Are you serious? Do you realise how many places there are to cross the border between Belgium and Holland alone?

It would cost "a few billion" to cover every border crossing in Belgium alone once you included monitoring. Then you have to find the wagons you THINK are breaking the law. So your "few billion" suddenly turns into "several billion" per country.

There is no way that "increased tax revenue" would cover that, and there would still be the argument over border checks of any kind under Schengen as well as the small matter of the Benelux Union which could mean that such a madcap EU scheme would not be enforceable in the Benelux countries.

Metro man
12th May 2013, 13:20
Exactly my point, look at all the money that could be "productively" spent employing thousands of civil servants to monitor and control the population. All the jobs that would be created installing and maintaining such a system. The politicians and bureaucrats would jump at the idea of increasing their powers.

Alternatively GPS could be used, requiring a tracking device to be fitted in every car. It's already being talked about in some countries as a means of making those who drive on busy roads in peak hours pay more.

George Orwell was right with his book 1984, he just got the date wrong. The technology required wasn't available in the mid 1980s but it certainly is now.

stuckgear
12th May 2013, 15:58
Alternatively GPS could be used, requiring a tracking device to be fitted in every car. It's already being talked about in some countries


some insurance companies are already offering 'discounts' to drivers with this to able to monitor driving habits etc. what's the betting insurance companies and government departments have been in discussion on the 'sharing' of acquired data.

personal freedoms ?

George Orwell's warning has in many cases come to pass anyway. that's the significant problem with the EU bureaucracy is removed from accountability to the electorate.

That's why so many countires in the EU are down the fiscal sh1tter.

hellsbrink
12th May 2013, 20:15
Alternatively GPS could be used, requiring a tracking device to be fitted in every car. It's already being talked about in some countries as a means of making those who drive on busy roads in peak hours pay more.

And how, pray tell, would you ensure that ALL vehicles were fitted with such a device, especially when you remember that so many do not actually appear on a register in the country where they are being used and may be on false plates (like one vehicle I saw here which had what looked like a French number plate on the front and a Bulgarian one on the back. Both had the same number, but from the front it looks French and from the rear it looks Bulgarian)?


Again, do you REALLY think that such a scheme would actually be workable, never mind affordable as you may be able to get such devices fitted to new vehicles but you sure as hell won't get every other wagon on the road fitted with such a device as people will simply not pay for it to happen and will not allow their movements to be monitored in such a way, and the last reason is the biggest one as to why such a madcap scheme has not been implemented despite the waffle about introducing such a scam that has been heard for so many years already.

Capetonian
12th May 2013, 20:24
The Bureauprats can't even standardise electric power sockets and plugs within the same country, never mind across (non-existent) borders, so how anyone thinks they are going to manage a system of controlling entries and exits of vehicular traffic is beyond me.

That might theoretically happen if Schengen is abolished, if the EU crumbles, and if countries regain their sovereignty and their right to self-determination. Much as I like to think it will happen, I know it won't. Imagine the chaos and delays at border crossings.

probes
13th May 2013, 07:04
The Bureauprats can't even standardise electric power sockets and plugs
be reasonable. Let's finish with the electric bulbs first. :rolleyes:

AlpineSkier
13th May 2013, 07:17
I was very surprised to find that the rules for electric plugs/sockets are rather intelligent/liberal in France ( maybe elsewhere too, but I don't know )

You can fit any type of socket you like( French/British etc ) as long as it conforms to the standard requirements of having an earth-pole and a physical shield that blocks the N/S contacts when not in use and this will be accepted by the supervising body (Consuel ) when they visit to certify your installation, pre connection to mains.

ORAC
13th May 2013, 07:51
As an aside it has, for at least 15 years, been the aim of the EU commission to have all vehicles fitted with a GPS tracking system. Older vehicles being fitted as a requirement for tax/insurance.

This was as part of the transport infrastructure to allow the introduction of taxing by miles driven and type of road. An essential part of the System being the Galileo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)) constellation which is designed to met the legal requirements to be used in such a system.

See here from 2003 (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/100306-should-real-vote-winner.html#post973188) and 2004 (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/138387-uk-transport-policy-hypocrisy.html#post1438732).

stuckgear
13th May 2013, 08:36
As an aside it has, for at least 15 years, been the aim of the EU commission to have all vehicles fitted with a GPS tracking system. Older vehicles being fitted as a requirement for tax/insurance.

This was as part of the transport infrastructure to allow the introduction of taxing by miles driven and type of road. An essential part of the System being the Galileo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)) constellation which is designed to met the legal requirements to be used in such a system.

See here from 2003 (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/100306-should-real-vote-winner.html#post973188) and 2004 (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/138387-uk-transport-policy-hypocrisy.html#post1438732).

Why does that not suprise me?

Anybody?

Anybody?

Bueller?

Like I said; "What's the betting insurance companies and government departments have been in discussion on the 'sharing' of acquired data."

arcniz
13th May 2013, 11:57
onetrack says:

Arcniz - I gather from the sheer brilliance of your post, you already hold down a senior position in Brussels, formulating EU policy, rules, and regulations?

No, exactly not that. Am not and never will be a Eurocrat, nor any other kind, for that matter.

Am, however something of an expert and practitioner in the art and science of systematizing things, methods, processes, etc. for better effect and result.

Near everyone in the world, at least all of them living maybe above the yurt level of complexity, owns and possibly uses daily some one or many things that somehow depend on bits of conceptual and tangible pixie dust I have authored or helped to enable, so the comments one has offered about applying a technological overlay to foster Eurofication are neither frivolous nor wholly spurious, at least in the spirit and context of the discussion here.

This curious thread has one large part of the participants sharing crafty methods for avoiding taxation under the byzantine matrix of current EU rules and regs, and another cohort of participants affirming the concept that a solid and enforceable system of EU taxation is the succeed/fail delimiter for evolution or devolution of the regulatory bouillabaisse promulgated by Brussels at present. You are in the latter group, IIRC, as am I.

So the question -- from an implementation pov, is how to move forward to implement better, fairer, and more efficient policy dissemination, fee structures, and tax practices that actually work as intended - without costing more than necessary or allowing corruption, bureaucracy and local politicking to have their way with the process that ultimately is feedstock and lifeblood of stability for a future EU.

My comments about electrifying EU government by way of ubiquitous kiosks -- operated from an official central point rather than the offices of local bureaucrats, officials and gatekeepers, is means as a methodology for asserting and gradually assuming control of the government duties the EU claims to have under its sway. Squeezing out the innumerable diverse layers of local padding charges and skimming bakh shesh off the government's incoming revenue stream is a large part of the economic challenge for the central government's survival. Likewise, being able to deliver permits, licenses, etc directly to EU citizens via electronic means from EgovU central is a way to firm up the psychological and participatory link between EU and its citizens -- made all the more powerful if it is quick, efficient, and accessible directly to nearly all the EU public.

The process of working off several thousand years of bad habits relative to citizens' interface to their government may take a century or more -- at the minimum it will need a few generations for cultural memories to fade and histories to be selectively rewritten so that graft, corruption and local hegemonic pecking orders do not completely intervene between culturally and geographically diverse citizens and their central government. What could be quicker, cheaper, and better than getting that process off to a running start with readily available high-tech tricks and gadgets (and replaceable competitive-bid professional outside vendors managing it) that quickly and everywhere introduces operational efficiency, strong accounting and process controls and professional management of the revenue pipelines while also delivering the value-added New Government bonus of vastly improved service, often in real-time, from Central administration DIRECT to the end-user Citizen.

Just my 2cents worth, of course.


:)

OFSO
13th May 2013, 12:28
Getting back to the theme of the thread, may I point out to Londoners who think house prices always rise, Californians who know they might fall, Scousers who KNOW they can fall, and Germans who think house prices never change, that

Firstly: House prices in Spain rise and fall and rise and fall and always have done, at least since 1988. Hence depending on when you bought, if you own a house in Spain, today in 2013 you are either sitting on a huge loss, a huge profit, or neither the one nor the other, and

Secondly: Spain is a big country, very diverse, and saying house prices are falling or rising is as meaningless as asking "how much does a house cost in the UK or USA" and for the same reason.

OFSO
13th May 2013, 12:32
You can fit any type of socket you like

Spanish electrical plugs and sockets (thin pins) have vanished from this part of Spain: everything here is to the German standard (fat pins).

cldrvr
13th May 2013, 13:24
The real issue in Spain is the huge oversupply in the market. The Spanish have more empty houses then even the US. They went bananas building cheap villas for Germans/French/UK expats.

There are enough empty houses in Spain to give every house owner a second home.

House prices will not recover there until the rest of Europe has recovered and is once again looking for second homes, give it a generation.

cldrvr
13th May 2013, 13:25
Just to go back to the thread subject, one would be mad to keep cash in a Spanish bank right now, only a matter of time when the government there will levy depositors to pay for the next bail-in.


Bank impairments in Spain stands at 17%. That is the only number you need to know.

Get your money out or be prepared to pay for the next bail-in.

The pending Spanish default/bail-in has nothing to do with the EU, it was the Spanish regulators who allowed their banking system to go haywire.

Keef
13th May 2013, 13:39
My concern is that a bunch of British banks were taken over by a Spanish one. That Spanish bank immediately tried to stop me withdrawing my money to pay for repairs to my house. It took some shouting (and subsequently the involvement of the Financial Regulator) to sort it. I am assured that UK customers of that Spanish bank are not at any risk, but I'm not taking the chances.

vulcanised
13th May 2013, 14:18
That Spanish bank rang alarm bells for me as soon as it appeared in the UK.

Never trusted it, never will.

cldrvr
13th May 2013, 15:56
Spain had to beg the EU only 2 weeks ago for a 3 year extension on deficit targets, which are currently running at 10.6%

All of us here can see where Spain and its banks are heading and so can all those Spaniards that took out 800Bn euro of cash and parked it elsewhere, so can the ratings agencies that have Spain one notch above junk with a negative outlook and its banks all on negative outlook.

I reiterate again, I find it admirable that you are willing to risk your cash for the next bailout, the government need lots more like you who are willing to keep their cash in Spanish banks so they can levy that to pay for the next bail-in.

Just don't expect many of us to follow suit, we prefer to keep our savings in creditworthy institutions and instruments and not put it at risk.

El Grifo
13th May 2013, 16:13
Here is a possible example of one of the elements which will help Spain disappear down the tubes.

On my Island there are around 2000 private Villas for rent. Most of the Villas have 40+ weeks rented per year.

Unlike the All-Inclusive market, the Villa clients use hire cars, taxis, supermarkest and restaurants which helps circulate the money around the island. The Villa owners also employ cleaners, maintainance guys and pool guys.
Despite a huge push by the Villa Owners, The government refuse to legalise the Villa market and are now threatening 14.000€ fines for illegal renting.

The owners are happy to pay an annual licence fee and taxes on the profits, but the government refuse to budge.

The fight is now moving to the EU courts.

At a time of crisis in the economy, the Government seem hell-bent on making things worse !!


Beats me :ugh:

El G.

hellsbrink
13th May 2013, 16:20
The bank you are obviously "fingering" was ranked in April this year as 43rd in the Forbes Global 2000 list of the world's largest companies. It is the largest bank in the EU and one of the largest banks in the world in terms of market capitalization. It has made worldwide acquisitions, which it has or is re-branding under the one name. It's 2012 financials stand up for themselves and are very impressive.

And surely there MIGHT be a risk of one or more parts of the "empire" going TU, risking a contagion across all of the group? RBS is a good example of that, so was Dexia here in Belgium as it was the US operation that Dexia owned that brought down the whole group. And we can hardly forget the whole ABN-Amro debacle which also killed of Fortis (now owned by BNP Paribas) as well as putting RBS in the mire.

So, you see, size is not actually everything. The bigger they are, the harder they may fall, and with Santander Group operating in some rather shaky markets like Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Italy, etc, then it is feasible for one or more parts of the group to go sideways and cause problems across the whole group.

And in the current climate, it won't take much for investors to get twitchy fingers....



Disclaimer:- I have no interest in the success or failure of Santander. I'm merely pointing out how aggressive expansion can have it's pitfalls.

cldrvr
13th May 2013, 16:36
Spain is in a mess. With unemployment at 27% and youth unemployment at 55% the numbers just don't add up.

Spain has a demographic breakdown as follows (as of 2008):

total population 46Mn.
Under 14 and over 65, 14.2Mn
working age: 31.8 (15-65), of those 8.5Mn are unemployed (taking just the main unemployment numbers and ignoring the higher youth unemployment)

That leaves 23.3 Mn working people paying tax to support 22.7Mn people. Add to that a deficit of 10.7% and you can see that the Spanish economy is unsustainable.

Greece needed 6 bailouts, and they were not in as bad of a shape as Spain is right now, the only thing saving Spain is the ECB backstopping the interest rates.

SpringHeeledJack
13th May 2013, 17:01
As an aside, for reasons beyond my intellect, Santander's entry into the UK market has always left me with a bad feeling of something untoward happening down the line. I can't put my finger on why, but.......I was reading on a very well informed financial blog a good while back where the mechanisations of the assault were explained. Apparently due to Spanish banking/financial laws any purchases by a Spanish bank abroad were somehow immediately credited to the mother company in a way that it would not in other financial juristictions.

Interesting times ahead :uhoh:



SHJ

OFSO
13th May 2013, 17:23
El Grifo, same here. Plenty of money going round, new builds and rental market is way up over last year, but the government seems determined to drive the clients away from Spain.

My German friends told me they had an informal discussion in their clique and agreed that €10,000 was enough to leave in banks here to pay for annual taxes and utilities (always paid by direct debit in Spain). Five years ago when it was 'safe' they would happily have left a reserve of €50,000.

Fifteen years ago there were no controls on inward transfers of money. Five years ago it was €10,000. Now it is €5,000. So nobody is bringing more cash in than that.

How dumb these politicians are.

El Grifo
13th May 2013, 17:28
I never really like to describe politicians of any colour or creed as "dumb" They have to be a little smart to have got to where they are.

But here and now, for Spain, I am forced to make an exception !

Matari
13th May 2013, 18:33
So why do you support Socialists? They are the ones in favor of ever-increasing government intervention, regulation, and strangulation of private business.

Maybe it's not the politicians who are dumb......

El Grifo
13th May 2013, 18:52
Did someone speak ??

Keef
13th May 2013, 19:04
I don't know if the diatribe was aimed at me, but I can assure you that when Santander took over Alliance Leicester, they immediately reduced the amount I could pay per day to £5,000. I owed my builder £50,000 and needed to pay him. They insisted the restriction was "for my protection"!

They were absolutely intractable, other than offering that if I went into the branch in town, I could withdraw £50,000 in cash. As if I was going to walk around with that sum in my pocket!

I closed the account as soon as I'd got my money out (in tranches of £5,000 per day). Once bitten...

Lonewolf_50
13th May 2013, 20:41
Keef, I tip my cap to your taking control of your money from the bank. It may have been a lot of bother, but it sends the right signal. :ok:

cldrvr
13th May 2013, 20:57
Keef, I tip my cap to your taking control of your money from the bank. It may have been a lot of bother, but it sends the right signal. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Most people wait too long either through ignorance or disbelief. Look back at Northern Rock, that was in the making for weeks, look at Cyprus, that was in the making for over a year.

800Bn has left Spain, those are the informed deposit holders, the rest is taking a gamble.

As for another example, the Co-op here in the UK, downgraded to junk and the CEO has quit, still plenty keep deposits with that bank. The Co-op can no longer access normal liquidity on the open market and is dependent on the emergency liquidity provided by the BOE. If I had any money there, I would take it out in an instant. Why keep cash with a bank that has no access to cash itself.

Both Cypriot banks that drove the country to a bailout and the subsequent levies on depositors were downgraded last year to junk status and it was public knowledge that they could no longer access liquidity on the open market so why anyone would keep any cash with banks like these is beyond me.

AlpineSkier
13th May 2013, 22:20
@IB4318

It is the largest bank in the EU

Wrong. HSBC is twice as big.

Maybe you meant Eurozone ? Wrong by a long way. Deutsche Bank is 50% bigger and that was the first bank I looked up.

Santander has such a stinking reputation in the UK - regularly being the most complained-about bank over the last three or four years - that I heartily concur that you would have to be a fool to bank with it.

It has made worldwide acquisitions, which it has or is re-branding under the one name

Is this what makes a great bank in your eyes ? :rolleyes:


You are talking an absolute load of rubbish and making statements and assumptions that have no foundation, other your own interpretations in your minds of what you read in the British media, which is usually sensationalized and without foundation

Well, I'm unsure what you think your statements are founded in, but I feel that rubbish is more applicable to what you have presented for our delectation, than what other posters have put forward. Please, if trying to make dramatic declarations, getting your basic facts right makes you look less foolish.

BenThere
13th May 2013, 22:32
What each of us should do is secure as we can our savings from access by our desperately needy and broke governments. Some should go to real estate; some should go to gold; some should go to cash; and the rest should otherwise study the effects of inflation and how to profit from it.

arcniz
14th May 2013, 00:08
What each of us should do is secure as we can our savings from access by our desperately needy and broke governments. Some should go to real estate; some should go to gold; some should go to cash; and the rest should otherwise study the effects of inflation and how to profit from it.

BRAVO, Ben! Should carve the above in large text on the side of a mountain somewhere, as a monument to freedom of economic choice and a wise lesson for all.

airship
14th May 2013, 00:20
I was going to make a long and drawn-out post. Something along the lines of "we come into this world with nothing and leave it with nothing". Drawing references to passing camels through the eyes of needles etc. Or "In God We Trust" as marked on US$ banknotes. Intersting to note how easily one can replace the Spanish mammon with another presumably non-Spanish mammon. Personally, I've never experienced the veritable discomfort of trying to withdraw anything like £5,000 daily from any of my bank accounts, at any time and in any place, during the past 52 years. You see what you've made me do? Break one of the 10 commandments, specifically - thou shalt not covet...?!

So I thought I'd cut it all down to the bare minimum. Hope the post still makes some sense. Inshallah... :ok:

Metro man
14th May 2013, 07:35
If you're looking for somewhere safe to park your money, consider Singapore. The government has zero net debt, the banks are well capitalised, there has never been a bank failure and the government is swimming in money with no need to raid it's citizens life savings.

Highly efficient banking system with foreign currency accounts easily available. Low taxes, negligible corruption, SGD1000 notes available, SGD30 000 cash can be taken through the airport with no reporting requirements.

AlpineSkier
14th May 2013, 07:48
El Grifo


Despite a huge push by the Villa Owners, The government refuse to legalise the Villa market and are now threatening 14.000€ fines for illegal renting

Does this mean that in order to rent out your villa, you have to have a licence ? If the government is refusing to create such a licence, are there therefore hundreds of thousands of owners ( all Spain ) renting illegally every year ?

Keef
14th May 2013, 09:01
Coveting not required, Airship. We moved house, selling the large Essex box and buying a rural Suffolk one in need of repair. We put the difference in a bank ready to pay for the repairs. All straightforward and all on line, we thought.

The repair works went OK apart from the chaos involved. Just before the final large payment to the builder was due, Santander took over and put a new load of restrictions in place. That was the nightmare, and that was when I learned that Spanish banks are craftier than the UK Regulator.

Several lessons learned, shall we say.

OFSO
14th May 2013, 09:32
Paid a bill at the bank today. This is the receipt:

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/ROBIN_100/Euro-Pesetas_zpsea9abb3e.jpg


I asked "So is Spain bringing back the peseta, then ?"

Shocked answer: "no".

I asked "How long would it take this bank to reintroduce pesetas as a local working currency if they did ?"

Answer: "About ten minutes, since everything is already calculated in pesetas."

angels
14th May 2013, 09:58
I haven't been following ths thread but just nipped in to say that Spain is issuing a 10 year bond today (probably for around 4-5 billion euros). It has flown out of the window with initial demand at well over 14 billion euros.

The reason it is selling is yield. You get 4.3 percent or so for Spain, whereas Germany is issuing a two year bond tommorow.

It's coupon? Zero percent.

Metro man
14th May 2013, 10:10
Hang on a bit longer and they will probably be offering 7-8% after a few more downgrades.

toffeez
14th May 2013, 10:12
.. is also how long today's artificial exchange rate would hold, before the New Peseta found its true value.

onetrack
14th May 2013, 11:43
4.3% interest on bonds where the country goes bust and defaults, will mean that the real return will be zero - or a whole lot less. :(

I, like many others, would prefer to park my money in a country or facility that offers solid security, thus ensuring I'll actually get my money back.

Additionally - one has to wonder about a country that is currently "technically bankrupt", offering to pay 4.3% interest on bonds that mature in 2023.
Does someone in the Spanish Govt expect that Spain will win the Euro Lottery within that 10 yr time span? - so they can pay out that debt when it comes home to roost?

IB4138
14th May 2013, 12:40
Keef

I hate to tell you this, but NatWest (RBS) introduced similar restrictions about the same time. I fell foul of this. I think you will find these restrictions apply to other banks these days and not just Santander.

OFSO

Many bills in Spain, since the introduction of the Euro have shown a value in Pesetas.

cldrvr
14th May 2013, 16:12
Fitch just upgraded Greece to B- outlook stable. I would rather keep my money there then in Spain right now. (not really...)

Text in full:




The Greek economy is rebalancing: clear progress has been made towards
eliminating twin fiscal and current account deficits and 'internal devaluation'
has at last begun to take hold. The price has been high in terms of lost output
and rising unemployment and the capacity for recovery is still in doubt.
Nonetheless, sovereign debt relief and an easing of fiscal targets have lifted
Central Bank measures of economic sentiment to a three-year high and the risk of
eurozone exit has receded.

The Economic Adjustment Programme (EAP) is on track amid a semblance of
political and social stability. The current administration has displayed much
greater ownership of the EU-IMF funded EAP than its predecessors, committing to
further upfront fiscal consolidation and a renewed push on structural reforms.
Still, tangible economic recovery remains elusive, while resistance to reform is
high, underlining the continuing risks to implementation.

Greek primary fiscal adjustment of over 9% of GDP in 2009-12 (excluding
one-off support to the financial sector), and around 16% in cyclically adjusted
terms, ranks as the most ambitious instance of fiscal consolidation among
advanced economies in recent times. The current account deficit has also shrunk
from 10% of GDP in 2011 to 3% in 2012. The revised EU-IMF programme gives Greece
two additional years (2015-16) to attain a primary surplus of 4.5% of GDP. This
relaxation is reflected in Fitch's expectation of a milder economic contraction
of around 4.3% in 2013 (-6.4% in 2012) and a weak recovery in 2014.

Structural reforms are progressing. The financial system has stabilised:
EUR16bn-EUR17bn of time deposits have returned to the system since mid-2012 and
bank recapitalisation is well advanced. Meanwhile, a small, but significant
milestone was passed earlier this month with the completion of the first major
privatisation since the EAP began. Considerable progress has also been made with
labour market reforms and 80% of the earlier loss of competitiveness has been
clawed back. However, product market reform remains a major challenge: progress
in this area will be important to support a sustainable recovery and for the
success of the EAP.

Extensive private and public sovereign debt restructuring has put programme
funding on a more secure footing and should moderate the rise in the peak public
debt/GDP ratio to around 180% in 2013-14. Notwithstanding this still extremely
high headline public debt ratio, the significantly reduced interest cost and
maturity extension provided by the debt restructuring and EAP financing means
that sovereign debt service now appears more secure than the size of the debt
stock would otherwise imply. Even so, public debt sustainability is still far
from assured and will be dependent on economic recovery and a sustained primary
fiscal surplus.

The degree of default risk for private creditors, encapsulated in the
previous 'CCC' rating, has subsided. In Fitch's view, sovereign debt
restructuring and debt buy-backs have reduced private creditors' share of
general government debt to the point (15%, excluding T-bills), where there would
be little to be gained financially from any further restructuring. Barring Greek
exit from the euro, Fitch could envisage official creditors bearing the brunt of
any future default, albeit the political considerations of any such move may not
be straightforward.
Greece's sovereign ratings are underpinned by its still high income per
capita, which far exceeds 'B' and 'BB' medians, its superior measures of
governance on most counts and membership of the eurozone, which shields it from
balance of payments and exchange rate risks and has facilitated access to
unprecedented financial assistance.

airship
14th May 2013, 18:23
I've also learned several lessons recently, if I may I say so dear Keef.

The older I get, the less I believe in role-models or just looking upto those who I might once have considered as "different" and more worthy of respect than the average mortal human-being...

Today, the sun shined brightly here, warming my body and soul. I'm not surprised that ancient civilisations once worshipped the sun. And long before the invention of more modern religions. Tomorrow, very heavy rainfall is forecast, one is lead to believe.

I might despise the Spanish (for personal reasons which I won't discuss here), but I do not attempt to "cheaply bring about their demise" as many here apparently wish. I sincerely hope that the EU and Eurozone and their populations recognise that these are "exceptional times" when we should all "stick together" and support each other. For better or worse, I believe that is what is happening, more or less.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on EUR banknotes, you won't find any dubious statements and/or false promises such as those printed on US$ or GBP £ banknotes (eg. "In God We Trust" or "...promises to pay the bearer...") etc. The EUR is a "paper currency", just like all the other more longer-established currencies. And worth anything at all only because over 330 million people across 17 independent European countries with a combined GDP of 12.5 trillion (in US$) today have adopted it as their "legal tender" and back it. Compare that with the GBP £ sterling, the UK's population and GDP...?! Compare that with the US$ too why not (GDP 15.7 trillion US$, population 316 million people)? "The rest of the world's favourite currency", even 1/2 a century before the introduction of the EUR. And much appreciated especially by drug barons and arms dealers, corrupt dictators and politicians of especially poorer countries world-wide, and more usual tax evaders almost everywhere.

The EUR is a baby. As with all babies, it's currently experiencing teething pains. But don't try to kill the baby with simple talk without adequate reflection - their parents will be very angry...

OFSO
14th May 2013, 18:34
IB4138, I know that, but since the euro was implemented, my bank has never shown pesetas on my statements, whereas I was surprised the Caixa still does. Incidently they charged me a €2 commission on my paying €45 into a Caixa account.

toffeez
14th May 2013, 20:05
I think I could make a SEPA payment of 45€ from my euroland account to your caixa account without anyone incurring any charges. But I won't.
.

OFSO
14th May 2013, 20:17
That's good, because I don't have a Caixa a/c !

Shack37
14th May 2013, 22:30
airship said (apologies for thread drift)


I might despise the Spanish (for personal reasons which I won't discuss
here),


How can you despise an entire nation? Not for discussion, just give us a clue.

airship
15th May 2013, 14:51
I might despise the Spanish (for personal reasons which I won't discuss here),

What part of my post in English language above can't you comprehend Shack37?

OFSO
15th May 2013, 14:53
How can you despise an entire nation?

No problem, Shack, the Catalans seperatistas do.....

El Grifo
15th May 2013, 15:00
Does this mean that in order to rent out your villa, you have to have a licence ? If the government is refusing to create such a licence, are there therefore hundreds of thousands of owners ( all Spain ) renting illegally every year ?

Alpine, I cannot speak with authority for the mainland, but that is absolutely correct for the Canary Islands.

Villas are contracted to all of the major European Tour operators and advertised widely on websites as they have been for years.

They are 100% illegal nevertheless !

Capetonian
15th May 2013, 15:10
How can you despise an entire nation? Not difficult, although in my case it's not the Spanish. I can't say I despise the entire population of any country, as without having met the entire population, that would be idiotic and narrow-minded. It is possible though to despise the values and behaviour which characterise a nation and its people. It usually comes from the top, as they say, a fish rots from the head downwards.

Perhaps that's what Airship means.

Patrick Moore despised the entire German nation as he held them responsible for the death of the woman he loved.


Astronomer Sir Patrick Moore has revealed he still hates the Germans, seven decades after his beloved fiancée was killed in a bombing raid.

The death of Moore's father in 1947 from the gas he had inhaled in the Great War, fuelled his hatred. "If I saw the entire German nation sinking into the sea, I'd push it down. There may be good, courteous, friendly Germans, but I haven't met them."
The stargazing eccentric admitted his attitude towards Germany was 'absurd', adding "I've had to visit Germany a few times during my career, and as soon as I get there I'm in enemy territory. It's absurd because I don't feel the same about Japan."
Even so, he brought up the subject up again this year, telling the Radio Times: "The only good Kraut is a dead Kraut."

Shack37
15th May 2013, 16:06
What part of my post in English language above can't you comprehend
Shack37?



I understood all of it perfectly airship, I just find it difficult to comprehend how a person can be so childishly bitter.
PS You left out the definite article before English:ok:

Shack37
15th May 2013, 16:11
[QUOTE]
How can you despise an entire nation?
[No problem, Shack, the Catalans seperatistas do.....[QUOTE]Would you believe I occasionally encounter similar sentiments up here;)

cldrvr
16th May 2013, 16:46
Interesting day today, Greek banks are upgraded while the IMF announces a task force looking into Spanish banks to be completed May 21, with the report out in June.

El Grifo
17th May 2013, 12:24
Here's a read :-

Economy minister calls for deposits of over 100,000 euros to be given protection | In English | EL PAÍS (http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/14/inenglish/1368553508_581749.html)

cockney steve
17th May 2013, 14:10
Before Naff Wets were taken over by RBS, I banked there.
Having sold a property I had a not insignificant deposit.
I asked (Knowing they didn't have it) for ~ £ 15, 000 of MY money in cash....a terse interlude with the Branch-Manager established that I would be closing the account in short order and I most certainly would NOT pay the cost of a Draft instead of cash, as it would be a favour to them to accept one. I also made him aware of the definition of the terms "instant " and "Access"

Returned the following day, departed with a briefcase full of banknotes and shortly thereafter joined the (then) Ethical bank, RBS.

the decline and fall of that establishment is well-documented. Following the decision to downgrade the terms offered to their "customers" by both RBS and Naff Wets, It's time to move to a less greedy and exploitative organisation.....Nationwide, anyone?

cldrvr
17th May 2013, 14:22
Here's a read :-


The Spaniards of course would propose that, they just want the Northern tax payers to pay for their next bailout.

Shack37
19th May 2013, 15:52
Expats feeling the pain in Spain should think twice before fleeing - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10046400/Expats-feeling-the-pain-in-Spain-should-think-twice-before-fleeing.html)


Stop, think, keep calm. Panic when all else fails.

OFSO
19th May 2013, 15:58
Panic when all else fails.

Can one construe 'all else' to include the weather ? Raining in torrents, temperature in single figures, snow-chains mandatory for Pyrannees this weekend.

Oh sorry, I thought i was on the climate change fred.

Shack37
19th May 2013, 16:06
Can one construe 'all else' to include the weather ? Raining in torrents, temperature in single figures, snow-chains mandatory for Pyrannees this weekend.


My apologies OFSO, currently roughing a couple of weeks in Lanzarote to avoid predicted weather oop north.

El Grifo
19th May 2013, 18:26
But rather than allowing these new reporting laws to force you to quit Spain and the high quality of life it offers you and your family, it would be worth first seeing if an overhaul of your financial affairs is the solution.”


Absolutely :D :D

Hey Shack, just back from a agreeable lunch at Playa Quemada.

Where are you shacked up !!

stuckgear
19th May 2013, 18:41
Shack carefull with El G there.. you'll most likely end up with a hangover.

:p

OFSO
19th May 2013, 19:03
an overhaul of your financial affairs is the solution.


Step One: pop along to the hacienda and renounce your residency.

Step Two: save up your Ryanair tickets which show how often and for how long you were out of Spain last year.

Step Three:. Change your name to "google" or "amazon" or...oh no, silly me, that's for the UK !