Tales from Kai Tak - 15 Years On

[John MacCalman]

Hi Folks

Is coming up on 15 years since I made my "Tales from Kai Tak" radio documentary. To mark this I've made the audio available on YouTube (http://youtu.be/QiE0YLa_PdM) so it can reach a wider audience.

For those youngsters who might not know this is what it is about...
A Radio Documentary about landing at the old Hong Kong Airport with contributions from pilots who flew this challenging approach on the IGS-13 making a sharp right at the checkerboard at 500ft over the Kowloon buildings with just seconds to line up and land on the runway often in treacherous weather conditions. Over 1000 hours production time went in this project which features three flight deck landing (one in a simulator training for an engine fire on take off. Contributors include captains David West, Dick Duxbury, Chip Crosby, Ralph Requa, Barry Schiff, Manny Puerta, Tom Erikson, Chip Crosby, Randy Sohn, Tim Olson, Jim Hancock, Nick Bristow, and from Hong Kong Airport GM Tony Norman. Produced by John MacCalman and first broadcast on Radio Clyde in 1998 with special thanks to British Airways, Northwest Airlines (now part of Delta), Cathay Pacific and the most excellent team at Hong Kong Air Traffic Control.

So that we are not going over old ground, previous threads can be found here (http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/264063-tales-kai-tak.html) and here (http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/132958-tales-kai-tak.html).

[LIKE.HKA]

So sad that Kai Tak will turn to a place for ocean liners later this year.

[Pucka]

Not so sad in MHO..at least the transport connection with possibly greater majesty, will remain!! I believe a small archive museum to Kai Tak is envisaged..maybe we should all push the appropriate buttons to ensure that happens!!

[Checkerboardhk]

Agree! Let's save the checkerboard! The paint of the checkerboard is fading now...sad to see that

[Master Caution]

I second that Motion:cool:
Climbing up to the Chequer Board was a lot of fun

[PatObrien]

How'd it compare to say........a night trap on a pitching deck in 'treacherous' weather?

Just curious

[China Flyer]

How'd it compare to say........a night trap on a pitching deck in 'treacherous' weather?



I'm sorry, but not even close: the only similarity would be that both were done in an aircraft. Beyond that, forget it.

[asianeagle]

Stand by for pi$$ing contest :ugh:

[treboryelk]

Hello Sailor. What a wanky question. Of course it doesn't compare. Personally, I would have loved to have flown the checker-board approach.

[PatObrien]

Trevor, they told me when I joined there wasn't any such thing as a wanky question!?

[PatObrien]

Sorry, I meant Trebor......

[John MacCalman]

I reckon the checkerboard should be preserved like the Hollywood sign in LA.

[Shutterbug]

I think the checkerboard is best honoured by putting up a massive shopping mall right on top of it with direct rail access to Guangdong. I think a few hundred luxury time piece shops ought to do the trick. In dire need of few more of those, I know.

The crowning jewel of this memorial should be a massive tower with 300 "Imperial" luxury units complete with trimmings fit for royalty: tiny balconies, recessed small windows, 5-closet sized bedrooms barely fit for hobbits.

But hey, it's "Imperial."

This is how we commemorate things in Hong Kong chaps. Get with the program.

[goudie]

Probably apocryphal but a story did the rounds at Kia Tak in the early '70's, that a sign was painted under the checker board saying, 'Turn right!'

[On the beach]

Hi John,

Thanks for making your great documentary available on youtube, brought back many memories.

I well remember being on the flight deck of several arrivals to 13 (never 31 strangely), thanks to the crews of several friendly airlines. Thankfully, I never experienced an arrival on one of the more "challenging" days from the flight-deck, only from my 16th floor flat on Argyle Street, Kowloon and that was scary enough when the weather wasn't being too compliant and go-arounds were the order of the day. Hearing an aircraft on full power and knowing it is heading in your direction but being unable to see it has a funny "bowel-loosening effect". Strangely, the crews I flew with weren't as well acquainted with the chequerboard as I thought everyone flying the 13 IGS approach would be. I had to point it out to several of the crews.

Having visited "the chequerboard" a few times when it was in active service, I can vouch for its good placement, well apart from some local miscreants, who either didn't know its whereabouts or thought it had to be slalomed around! It was a great place to view arrivals to 13, and it should be preserved so that future generations can ask what it was for and us "Old Fogies" can tell them how it was the pinnacle of 20th century technology. Okay, maybe 19th century technology. But I bet there were very few 1st officers that could pick it out and sitting in the wrong seat on the wrong side of the aircraft doesn't count as an excuse!

Sadly, I never worked in the "tower" at Kai Tak, only down in the "engine room" (where real controllers used to lurk!) and my one visit to the tower was highlighted by all the staff ducking as a K..... A....... aircraft made an attempt at an approach via the "slaloming technique". It was that arrival that convinced me that 747s are virtually indestructible! And that being in a room with no windows makes for a much less stressful life. :E

Great memories, thanks John.

[ShyTorque]

I was based at Kai Tak for a few years. One of the most scary things I ever saw:

I was waiting in dispersal in my SAR S-76 for departure clearance, looking northwest towards the checkerboard. The cloudbase was low, marginal for the approach, with a very even layer of cloud with good visibility below.

A (KA) 747 was on the IGS. The tone of their radio calls made us think that the pilots were finding it hard going. Nothing was seen of the aircraft when suddenly, the call "Going round!" was made.

At that moment, the port wing and No.1 engine (only) briefly appeared below cloud; the aircraft was very low and was rolling left. It should have been rolling right. The wing then disappeared back into cloud! This meant the aircraft was turning towards the steep, high hills just to the north of the airfield instead of carrying out the correct missed approach procedure, which was over the runway and out through the gap.

Mt finger was going for the transmit button but ATC were very quick off the mark and gave them a very terse warning! After a few intense moments they obviously got it sorted out but they flew well north of the runway. For a while we all held our breath because we thought we were about to witness a major disaster.

[monster330]

And probably not the only dodgy approach by KA over the years.

They shouldn't be flying.

Go make cars 'n phones.

[hei yu]

OTB et al,
Just to clarify for those not familiar with Kai Tak ops …
When you say KA (l'air de dragon), don't you mean KE ?

[spleener]

Checkerboard? Just an obstruction hazard imo.

I never looked at or for it. You go where you look so I was more interested in seeing lead in cues and the runway.

[On the beach]

K....... A.......?

I couldn't possibly say. :E

[John MacCalman]

Do we know is the checkerboard still standing?

[Flying Mechanic]

Still there, but white /red paint is completely gone.

[Kubin rock climber]

You no Gateway customer!

[FlexibleResponse]

Checkerboard? Just an obstruction hazard imo.

I never looked at or for it. You go where you look so I was more interested in seeing lead in cues and the runway.

I agree with spleener...

[RRAAMJET]

Loved flying the IGS! Never looked at the checkerboard…I had my own ground references for alignment, which differed slightly from L-1011 to -400. I was a practitioner of the 'weasel appwoach' in fair weather - sidestepping to the left when fully visual in order to extend the final segment and/or lessen the bank angle round final, crosswind dependent….
"Cathay 880 request a visual"
"Catay, you are kweared for a weasel appwoach"

Easy, really….

[Captain Dart]

i got wadar wectors for a weasel sometimes.

[ClearedIGS]

Worked Approach Radar and Tower for a total of 12 years until Kai Tak closed. What a buzz. What I really enjoyed was combining the IGS and a Visual Step Down if the weather was suitable. Many airlines would not allow their pilots to do a VSD because of the local geographical knowledge requirements. No such restrictions for Cathay or Dragonair. If you had two aircraft coming in from the East with a Cathay aircraft about 12 nm behind another airline, I could clear that aircraft for an IGS and immediately clear the Cathay aircraft for the Visual Step Down. When judged correctly, Cathay now became No 1, no delay to anyone and enough room to get a departure in between both aircraft. Maximum use of airspace with both aircraft getting what they want. Talk about job satisfaction. Thanks for the memories to all who operated at Kai Tak.

[Captain Dart]

On a rare clear day I point out the Kai Tak runway to the FO and the spiky-haired kid in the jump seat and tell them, 'If that runway could talk'.

Lots of memories of the IGS, the aero club, and top-notch ATC.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

and out of courtesy the FO and the spiky-haired kid in the jump seat pretend they give a s*** about you and the good old days!

[LeadSled]

Lots of memories of the IGS, the aero club, and top-notch ATC.

Hell's Bells, chaps and chapesses, the IGS (and relocating the Stonecutters NDB to the other end of the island, and extending the runway and displacing the threshold took all the fun out of things.
And who remembers the Harbour approach?
And back in the good old days, where the crew transport dropped you at the Aero Club, and just took your bags to the hotel, I've probably still got some bar tickets in the bottom of an old flight bag somewhere.
Tootle pip!!

[Bergerie1]

Ah yes!
1000ft at Cheung Chau then down to 700ft visual towards Stonecutters just below the cloud base in pouring rain!

[RHKAAF]

I think some of the best approaches were made by the " Auxies " . We even were allowed to come from Sek Kong direct over Lion Rock and then sideslip down onto RW 13. Also, holding at North Point at 500ft and then given clearance to land in the last third of RW 23 and vacate the runway ASAP. Later,with the increase in traffic, things became more restricted but we still had a job to do.
I remember once in the 60's a flight from Singapore to HongKong. We refuelled at Saigon but after passing DaNang knew that if we carried on, we did not have fuel to divert to Manila. The weather was bad and I asked the captain what we would do if we could not get in to KaiTak. He looked at me and said that he did not want to be court-marshalled so he would fly into a mountain just above Lion Rock. As a fairly new co-pilot, I half believed him. Later ,in the bar ,the drinks were on me and the rest of the crew had a good laugh.

[Ocean Person]

Captain Dart:

I have a sneaking feeling that you and I would agree that washing off speed over the stretch of water between the islands of Cheung Chau and Stonecutters was the most pleasant piece of hand flying any pilot could ever wish for. Keeping an eye on Green Island as the "half way point" made stabilizing the approach a breeze but the icing on the cake came after Stonecutters.

What a pity those two crew members (and their contemporaries) you referred to will never know the pleasure of doing something that was highly paid, gratifying, memory making and just plain good fun.

O.P.

[RRAAMJET]

I have a night video of me with John Stone and Priesty in the 3-holer from overhead the Island to touchdown, filmed by a sim manufacturer crew to get their computer model accurate. I've got to get it onto Dvd or something...classic:D

[White None]

OP et al: I get the better times thing but seriously:-

the most pleasant piece of hand flying any pilot could ever wish for.

Lacking a little imagination my friend. Life outside of Cathay, even one or two of those F/Os and SHKs may have done a "Looping the Loop" or flown beneath MSA

[twothree]

Ok, more of, "interesting" flying then, considering it was on the classic.
Take-off RW13, dumb-bell at 1,000' in Junk Bay, or just slightly further out. Touch and go on RW31, hard left over Kowloon at 500' and aim at Central HK, pass the Mandarin at 1,000', hard right for Stonecutters. Touch and go on RW13. And so on until 6 take-offs and landings. Breakfast in the Aero Club.

Or, with "Shag".. 330kts over Green Island, close the throttles and spool up at about 500' on RW13. No speed break, and don't exceed the limits!!

[John MacCalman]

I have a night video of me with John Stone and Priesty in the 3-holer from overhead the Island to touchdown, filmed by a sim manufacturer crew to get their computer model accurate. I've got to get it onto Dvd or something...classic

Upload it to YouTube so you can share with all of us.

[RRAAMJET]

Will do
Got to get it off tape medium first; live in the Keys and need specialist to do it, but Office Depot recc'd a place.

[Tankertrashnav]

Happy memories of sitting on the terrace of the Carlton Hotel in 1968 with Mrs TTN (before she became MrsTTN) looking down and identifying the various aircraft as they approached in succession. "That's a Convair 990 of Garuda, thats a Convair 880 of Cathay Pacific, that's a ..." . "That's interesting, she would reply, unconvincingly!"

My most interesting approach was in the RHS of one of RHKAAF's Austers, after delivering newspapers by air drop round the NT. You really felt you could open the door and grab the washing off the roofs! Wonder if that was you flying, RHKAAF?

[Ocean Person]

White None:
This is just for you, let's call it an update on what I previously said. TWA senior captain Bob Buck wrote his entire professional flying life in his best selling autobiography “North Star Over My Shoulder”. On pages 389~390 he talks of the brotherhood of pilots who knew RW 13 at Kai Tak. Here is what he said: ------
Quote:
“ Part of the fun of Hong Kong was landing at Kai Tak Airport. The start of the runway that we’d approach for landing was shoved right up against the city, behind which were 1,500-foot hills, too high to come over and land straight in. So the approach was at a 90-degree angle, over water, away from the hills, toward an island called Stone Cutter. Beyond Stone Cutter, a hill rose that had big red and white checkerboard squares painted on it. So the procedure was to fly over Stone Cutter, descending, then aim at Checkerboard, continuing descent, then just before it make a hard right turn, almost an aerobatic maneuver; by now you were down to 300 feet or less, the tight turn taking you over stacked apartment-style living quarters with wash lines and drying clothes blowing in the wind off the balconies, close enough that you felt your wingtip might tear them off the lines. The runway swung into view, tilted sideways, but coming up level with your wings as you completed the turn; there it was, stretched out ahead and ready to accept your aircraft. After a long boring flight from Bangkok this stirred the blood and got you up on the edge of the seat – careful, but barnstorming with a Boeing 707, having old-style fun. That’s all gone now, with a new airport built away from these problems, just another dull airport with proper, boring approaches. But there’s a brotherhood of pilots who flew in and out of Kai Tak, and when any of us come together there’s lots of talk, tales, and laughter. “ Unquote.
His words and description but my sentiments. Convinced now ???

O.P.

[White None]

OP - No.

What I have always found.... surprising....? is how, whilst chaps like yourself, can Wax Lyrical, with absolute justification about the good ole days and how, comparatively challenging and in fact, absolutely challenging Airline Aviation was back then - Woe betide the Mil operator who shares a nugget of erstwhile fun. So I won't....

However, your comment which ended any pilot could ever wish for included me and I didn't agree. I would not have mentioned it until your post which included me, and I NEVER refer to it to others unless it is raised by them, but I and many others have had hand flying fun which would, comparatively, IMO, fry your bollocks.

Main thing is we have both previously enjoyed ourselves, that's good enough for me.

[Steve the Pirate]

I have a sneaking feeling that you and I would agree that washing off speed over the stretch of water between the islands of Cheung Chau and Stonecutters was the most pleasant piece of hand flying any pilot could ever wish for.

Hand flying? Are you nuts? :E

STP

[RHKAAF]

Tankertrashnav.
Not me, I was much later. If you click on RHKAAF or The Auxies, you can possibly research who your pilot was.

[Lou Scannon]

As one of the RAF C130 pilots who regularly visited Hong Kong in the late 60's I remember the rumour that someone, getting as close as possible to the Checkerboard as we all did, had actually left tyre marks on it. I never noticed any myself but perhaps I was concentrating too much on the upcoming hard right turn.

It was always challenging in the "Herc" but we took our hats off to the 707 and diesel 8 barons with their greater inertia and lower manouverability.

Mind you, they probably didn't have to be trained on the Harbour Circuits and the Sek Kong recce as we did.

Anyone remember the Japanair DC8 that landed short at San Francisco? When, shortly afterwards Air traffic cleared us to land on 31 with "One Japanair ahead", the co-pilots response "Roger, landing, rolling or undershooting?" was well received by the tower!

[LeadSled]

Mind you, they probably didn't have to be trained on the Harbour Circuits and the Sek Kong recce as we did.Lou,
Too right we did, and I didn't work for Cathay.
Best week's flying in our company was an aeroplane (little B707, later big B707 in my time, earlier years,DC-3, DC-4, then Electra) as a dedicated trainer for a week, with 20/30 pilots to be Hong Kong qualified, and all before the runway was extended and the 13 threshold displaced. Touch and goes on 13 and 31, with plenty of harbour circuits, required for Captains and First Officers.
A wonderful fellow, that I only got to know years after he retired from Cathay was Phil Blown, he never made the transition from the Electra to the 880, as many pilots of the era did not adapt to jets --- was an absolute fund of amazing tales, all of them true. Upset Australian DCA one morning descending into Sydney, dropped down and did a low orbit of his son's school at Bathurst --- woke up the whole town.
Phil was the Captain of the Cathay DC-4 shot down. Phil passed away about a year ago.
Getting in and out in the tail end of a typhoon could get really interesting, one of only two places I ever had to use full aileron and a boot full of rudder on a 707 to keep the wings "sort of level" was going in through the gap for 31 on a "windy" day. Who say you don't use rudder on a jet, except for an engine failure.
Even places like Sanaa or Quetta were never quite like "old Hong Kong".
Tootle pip!!

[bcgallacher]

In the late 80's early 90's I worked for a Far Eastern 747 operation and as our customer did not have staff approved on our aircraft i flew with the aircraft as flight mechanic - flying spanner to the old hands. I flew into Hong Kong many times - sometimes twice in one day and sitting in the first obs seat behind the captain gave me a good insight as to how the approach should be flown. Twice I had the living crap scared out of me by bad approaches - the first time the chequer board was overshot by a fair margin and the turn became tighter and tighter until the wingtip appeared to be down among the washing lines then the GPWS started screaming Sink Rate the F/O pushed the captains hand off the throttles calmly said 'I've been here before' leveled the wings and climbed out again - the next approach was ok. The second time was a complete screw up and we again were well off - we ended up having a final turn left not right with a GPWS Sink Rate warning at a speed way over normal after touch down,max braking and reverse was held until we stopped on the runway end markings - I watched the light poles out in the water getting closer and was convinced we were going in the water.As a spectator to these incidents all I could do was sit and hope that the right thing was done-much harder than being involved in the operation of the aircraft.

[Dora-9]

going in through the gap for 31 on a "windy" day. Who say you don't use rudder on a jet, except for an engine failure.Well said, Leady - you've zoomed in my esteem.

Only someone who truly knew Kai Tak would apreciate that landing on 31 in the "right" conditions could be far hairier than the IGS/13 could ever be.

[ClearedIGS]

In the late 80's early 90's I worked for a Far Eastern 747 operation and as our customer did not have staff approved on our aircraft i flew with the aircraft as flight mechanic - flying spanner to the old hands. I flew into Hong Kong many times - sometimes twice in one day and sitting in the first obs seat behind the captain gave me a good insight as to how the approach should be flown. Twice I had the living crap scared out of me by bad approaches - the first time the chequer board was overshot by a fair margin and the turn became tighter and tighter until the wingtip appeared to be down among the washing lines then the GPWS started screaming Sink Rate the F/O pushed the captains hand off the throttles calmly said 'I've been here before' leveled the wings and climbed out again - the next approach was ok. The second time was a complete screw up and we again were well off - we ended up having a final turn left not right with a GPWS Sink Rate warning at a speed way over normal after touch down,max braking and reverse was held until we stopped on the runway end markings - I watched the light poles out in the water getting closer and was convinced we were going in the water.As a spectator to these incidents all I could do was sit and hope that the right thing was done-much harder than being involved in the operation of the aircraft.
In the years I worked at Kai Tak, I watched many such incidents from the control tower with many many aircraft that should have made a missed approach, force a landing off an unstable approach. I've been in the Tower with a DC10 from an Asian Airline over fly the Tower with the main gear only 20 metres above the Tower in a right bank trying to get back to the runway. He landed. To this day, I don't know how. We had a B747 from an airline to the SSE of Hong Kong overfly the cockpit of a B747 at the 13B Holing Point by an estimated 10 Metres who landed off the approach. I've seen many aircraft overfly the Aviation Club and land off the approach. The main difference between the airlines was that if one of the major Western Airlines was unstable, they went around. Most of the Asian Airlines did not, with the exception of the Japanese airlines. I always found them very professional. I was often asked by pilot friends from Cathay and Dragonair over a beer at the Aviation Club, "why don't ATC send an aircraft around which was obviously unstable". From a legal standpoint, we could not do anything. Let's say we sent the aircraft around and on the next approach, it crashed? Who is responsible? Even if it made a normal landing on the 2nd attempt, the airline would ask the Captain, "why did you go around?" The Captain would then say that ATC made him go around due to being unstable. The Captain would deny it, and ATC leave themselves open to compensation to the airline. Very frustrating having to sit there and watch.

I had a 747 from a South Asian Airline famous for its flight attendants landing 13 one day. The aircraft floated and did not touch until well over half way down the runway. How the aircraft stopped before going off the end I'll never know. It was the only time in 45 years in ATC I've ever commented to a pilot about his landing. I said, " I would have thought it would have been better to go around that time Captain." I got no reply.

[LeadSled]

Cleared IGS,
"Back in the day" when I had a bloke (they were all blokes then) on command training, and we had a day off in VHHH, I would always take them out to the airport, and we would sit on the top of the terminal for a few hours (when you could do that sort of thing).
We saw just a small sliver of what you saw, but it was always an "educational" experience, and an eye opener for the person under training.
We always took the place very seriously, and there are some pretty fierce shears at the new joint, don't ever underestimate VHHH, old or new.
Tootle pip!!

[ClearedIGS]

I never underestimated either airport. I was the Aerodrome Controller on duty when the MD11 crashed at Chek Lap Kok in 1999. Not very pleasant to watch.

[twothree]

So, were you in the tower when the MD11 snapped of his left winglet and a bit of his leading edge on the concrete at Kai Tak which could have ended up in a cartwheel down the taxiway into a B747?

[ClearedIGS]

No I wasn't in the Tower for that one. There were actually a couple of those incidents with MD11s when they first started operating into Hong Kong. After so many incidents over the years, I actually wrote a memo to CAD suggesting that cameras should be positions on the Tower looking down 13 and one at the runway end looking up 31 so that the footage could be used in incident or accident investigation. They said it was not needed and nothing was done about it. When the MD11 crashed at Chek Lap Kok, someone in CAD came up with the bright idea that perhaps they should install cameras along both runways to aid in accident/incident & general operational investigations. As usual, it needs a serious accident to get action.

[Bergerie1]

Does anyone have some good quality charts for the pre-IGS Cheung Chau - Stonecutters approach that they could either post here or send me by private message?
If so, many thanks in advance.

[ClearedIGS]

Check your PMs

[Pucka]

Check your PMs

Any poss I might see same please??!!

[GVFlyer]

Probably apocryphal but a story did the rounds at Kia Tak in the early '70's, that a sign was painted under the checker board saying, 'Turn right!'

Like the left pointing arrow on the gasometer at RAF Northolt.

[GVFlyer]

As one of the RAF C130 pilots who regularly visited Hong Kong in the late 60's I remember the rumour that someone, getting as close as possible to the Checkerboard as we all did, had actually left tyre marks on it. I never noticed any myself but perhaps I was concentrating too much on the upcoming hard right turn.

It was always challenging in the "Herc" but we took our hats off to the 707 and diesel 8 barons with their greater inertia and lower manouverability.

Mind you, they probably didn't have to be trained on the Harbour Circuits and the Sek Kong recce as we did.

Anyone remember the Japanair DC8 that landed short at San Francisco? When, shortly afterwards Air traffic cleared us to land on 31 with "One Japanair ahead", the co-pilots response "Roger, landing, rolling or undershooting?" was well received by the tower!

I remember Japan Air Flight 2 and the famous Ahso Defense. A fine bit of aviation lore.

[VR-HFX]

I remember Japan Air Flight 2 and the famous Ahso Defense. A fine bit of aviation lore.
And she flew again .... although not sure about the crew. Then there was the "Katagiri Defense" for the one Capt Katagiri plonked deliberately short at Haneda in the early 80's.

[blind pew]

A certain european carrier bought 10 old 707s to enter in the charter market in the 70s. They destroyed two and nearly a third on the checkerboard approach which saw the threat of banning their imperial cousins who had been operating from the earliest days into Hong Kong.

[deja vu]

I was based at Kai Tak for a few years. One of the most scary things I ever saw:

I was waiting in dispersal in my SAR S-76 for departure clearance, looking northwest towards the checkerboard. The cloudbase was low, marginal for the approach, with a very even layer of cloud with good visibility below.

A (KA) 747 was on the IGS. The tone of their radio calls made us think that the pilots were finding it hard going. Nothing was seen of the aircraft when suddenly, the call "Going round!" was made.

At that moment, the port wing and No.1 engine (only) briefly appeared below cloud; the aircraft was very low and was rolling left. It should have been rolling right. The wing then disappeared back into cloud! This meant the aircraft was turning towards the steep, high hills just to the north of the airfield instead of carrying out the correct missed approach procedure, which was over the runway and out through the gap.

Mt finger was going for the transmit button but ATC were very quick off the mark and gave them a very terse warning! After a few intense moments they obviously got it sorted out but they flew well north of the runway. For a while we all held our breath because we thought we were about to witness a major disaster.
I think you will find KA were not operating 747s when Kai Tak was still opened, in fact it was after 2002.

[Flex88]

I don't think KA (DragonAir)have ever operated 747s. I guess the poster meant KE (Korean Airlines), who had several (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air#Retired_fleet).


Yes they did Paul... Not for that many years but they did !!!

[22N114E]

Perhaps a few years before your time Paul.

Dragonair operated 8. B-KAA to B-KAI, a combination of 747 freighters. -200, -300(F), -400(F).

[CodyBlade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIk5rK7Ry7Y

[CV880]

B-KAA & KAB, ex SQ 747-300 Combi's entered service with KA in late 2001.
B-KAC, ex MAS 747-300 Combi entered KA service in 2002
B-KAD, ex CAL 747-200F entered KA service in 2004.
The 5 744's were all former SQ aircraft converted to cargo by SIAEC in Singapore.
The KA Cargo operation was eventually absorbed into CX Cargo sometime after CX took over KA in late 2006.

[deja vu]

Equally as interesting as the IGS if not more so was the CC NDB ( twin NDB) approach in marginal weather. This was rarely in use and only if the IGS was down, usually awaiting flight calibration by the FAA Jetstar in those days.

I can still recall a United or maybe it was a Northwest 747 classic reporting at ELATO and ATC lady clearing the aircraft to CC for the twin NDB approach rwy 13.
"Say what?" in a Texas drawl, "ma'am I haven't done an NDB approach in 20 years, request clearance to Taipei" And off he went.

[anxiao]

Yes the CC NDB was an eye opener when I arrived bright eyed and bushy tailed in the '80s. As locally based pilots we had the advantage of doing the approach on base training in VMC with a chalkboard brief and a full debrief before we ever had to do it in anger. Without going through logbooks I think I did around 5 or 6 in low cloud, several on the 707, which required a bit of anticipation of the turn with a stiff South Westerly wind up the chuff. 1200 ft across CC, 800ft minimums IIRC.

It was also in the mid 80s that we stopped doing harbour circuits on base training, as the good burghers of Mid Levels and the Peak were somewhat concerned to be looking down on aircraft going past their windows. You had to be quick getting the approach checks out of the way downwind, it was not very long.

It was good flying.

[Bergerie1]

Yes - very interesting flying.

My first intiation to the CC NDB approach was in VC10s back in the '60s. I remember some eye-opening approaches in bad weather. Flying up from Cheung Chau towards Stonecutters in low cloud with the windscreen wipers zip-zapping away, it was like flying through a letter-box slit - hills close on either side, solid cloud only a few feet above and the sea not far below. It was a real team effort.

Does anyone have an old CC NDB approach chart they could post here?

[Meikleour]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/f43d202f_63fb_4f7f_964a_72e2a5860ea1_831c0df939599bf39fe0e0b 8569639ffd3910d9a.jpeg
Kai Tak 1997

From the early '80s an abbreviated version of that approach was flown in good weather. From the east, TH was passed at 7,000 ft. then the aircraft was cleared "for the visual step-down" and great care had to be exercised to avoid embarrassment if the speed was kept too high for too long! Approaching from the southwest enabled a much higher speed to be carried into the western harbour provided one was low enough at CH. 300 kts up the harbour at 2,000 ft was quite common/normal.

[Less Hair]

Fantastic. I had kept those jepp approach plates from our sim back then but don't have them anymore.

[anxiao]

Ah my memory was bad I see. 1040 as MDA and SC not below 800. But the missed approach at 5.5 CH was perhaps a little optimistic in horizontal rain and as long as we could see the surface features we were legal to continue. And it was easier from the right hand seat as you can see by the final turn angle. Night was tricky for those not familiar especially in reduced visibility and there were one or two out of town airlines that got a bit lost.

I remember the American pilot story, it may even have been back to Pan Am days, but it certainly happened. Smartest move of the day by that pilot, respect.

[Bergerie1]

Thanks Meikleour - it certainly brings back memories!

[AllWobbly]

anxiao

Not just out of town airlines😜

[anxiao]

Wobbly, you just triggered a memory, yes there was a Tristar that turned right at Green Island thinking he was over Stone Cutters. No harm done apart from a uniform trouser change but it was just as well that there was still the 16 storey height limit on Tsim Sha Tsui from what I recall...

No doubt there was much San Mig consumed in the Flying Club that evening.

Edited to add, I have just noticed that the Jepp plate above is the CH VOR approach. Eeee Luxury. The CC/SC double NDB approach probably had higher limits as one of the NDBs usually pointed at the nearest thunderstorm.

[Jn14:6]

There were two incidents that night, in the space of around 30 minutes, the other being the TriStar that turned the wrong way in the CH hold........

[Airbubba]

And on takeoff Runway 13 had some back course localizer procedure where in the old round dial planes you could get reverse sensing if you didn't flip some switch or dial in a reciprocal course.

Or, so they tell me... ;)

[Meikleour]

Airbubba: You departed 13 with the runway 31 ILS tuned and displayed. Therefore it was not a backbeam procedure and the sensing remained in the correct sense.

You were flying the 31 ILS AWAY from the airfield! Happy days and this was carried out on every check in the sim.

[LongTimeInCX]

......indeed it was Meikleour. Normally to then intercept the 104' radial from CH.
Happy days.

[AllWobbly]

There was a visual step down at night that went awry. After that we changed the anti skid test (i think). The Captain used to look up to test it. If my memory serves me the FO was PF and mistook HK Island for KLN. Looking back on those days it seems we were quite “bold”. There but for the grace of god or lady luck.

[ShyTorque]

deja vu

It was definitely a Korean 747. I wasn’t there in 2002.

[cabbages]

KA = Dragonair (now cathaydragon)
KE = Korean Air

You're welcome.

[ShyTorque]

Thanks for the correction. In my defence it was well over twenty years ago.
I never had cause to fly with either airline so never had cause to look at their tickets or associated flight boards. I heard the incident on the tower frequency and watched it happen.... plus a few other surprising and rather worrying radio calls from various airline pilots while I was working out there.

[Airbubba]

Meikleour

I don't know what we did, put in a reciprocal course when it should have been the front course or maybe flipped some B/C switch somewhere. Whatever it was when you turned toward the needle it got further away and the apartment buildings kept getting closer. The controller made a polite inquiry about our heading.

Just a bunch of country boys trying to earn a livin'. ;)

[deja vu]

I remember the American pilot story, it may even have been back to Pan Am days, but it certainly happened. Smartest move of the day by that pilot, respect.

Another popular American pilot story, didn't hear it myself but was widely reported.

United/Northwest/ Pan Am inbound to Kai Tak is being given an enormous amount of grief by HKG local lady ATC controller. The local controllers where extremely efficient but maybe were a little cold and aggressive in how they barked and snapped orders. In this case the lady had just spent a full minute chastising this crew for slow reaction to her demands when a Southern states drawl came over the air, "say ma'am, was I married to you once?"

[Greenlitemaxthr]

I remember base training when converting onto the -400 from the L-1011 - July 1990 with Adrian Bayley. It was a calm, clear day, with lots of blue sky and great visibility that you had in those days. I completed 7 landings in 1 hour 25 minutes. We took off on runway 13 just as the runway opened, went out to TH, and Adrian did a big, quite aggressive wingover, which surprised the hell out of me, and I made a visual approach to 31. After a touch and go we went out into the harbour straight towards Green Island, I did another big, pulling "g", wingover and made a visual approach to 13. I do remember Adrian pressing buttons quickly on the FMS to keep things going, which coming from the clocks, dials and elastic bands of the Tri-Star went by me in a blur. We kept going until final landing on 31, taxied up to the terminal, Bay 1 I think, parked and went straight to the Aero Club for a debrief - we drank champagne, which was customary in those days, got ****-faced, talked crap and enjoyed each others company. What I will always remember is how light and responsive the -400 was. Flying so low in the harbour, looking at mortals flats go by, reefing the aircraft about and both grinning at the whole lark of it all, as we played the sport of kings will always stay with me. Those were the days of fun flying, skill and no excuses.

[Trafalgar]

Absolutely love it !! Brings back memories of the same type of day. Came back wondering if there was a low-level attack session in the sim package for the type rating. Also taught me what awesome stick and rudder pilots I had the privilege to be trained by. They knew how to fly....weren't so worried with the "book" when it came to the letter of the procedure. Bring back Kai Tak !

[John MacCalman]

It's really good that this thread is still alive. I had such a wonderful time making the radio programme and had outstanding help from the aviation community and especially PPrune I am still travelling the world as a pax and still have the greatest respect for all the drivers. Nice to go back down memory lane. My favourite quote from one captain was when on IGS-13 he knew it was time to make that final right hand turn as he headed towards the checkerboard when his co-pilot started to sweat.

[Air Profit]

I recall some rather "sporty" visual island arrivals in the Classic. Screaming past the south side of HK island, idle thrust, F1, F5, F10, F20, full speed brakes, crank it around the peak, high descent rate, gear down as you hit stonecutters....final flap, and maybe just "touch" the thrust levers at a 100' to give it a bit of respectability. Stabilised Approach....uh huh. Off to the Cathay Club. Job done. A bit sad to think of what we've lost.

[deja vu]

and out of courtesy the FO and the spiky-haired kid in the jump seat pretend they give a s*** about you and the good old days!

See, this is what you get when parents stopped smacking their brats, told you so!

[cxorcist]

So true! Respect for one’s elders, genuine or not, is disappearing rapidly. Technology is the new replacement for experience, nevermind that it doesn’t always work and often makes everything more complicated than it needs to be. God bless paper, pencils, the 3:1 rule, visual approaches, basic autopilot modes, and weather radars in manual mode.

[Arfur Dent]

Talking of technology, when Cathay got the 747-400 the little matter of a 13IGS Go Around reared it’s’ head.
There you were at 675 ft in cloud on an instrument approach towards a hill! Nothing seen!!!!
We had to press GA switches, disengage autopilot and flight director, turn 47 degrees right and commence climb, retract flaps to 20 and select gear up. Follow up turn with heading bug and then re-engage autopilot and FD. What modes?? Oh, and tell ATC.
Easy really!
if you hadn’t thought about and briefed it accordingly, you could end up risking all on an unusual trip behind the tower and perilously close to some cumulo granite!
When men were men.........

[skywagondriver]

greenlitemaxthr wrote;
....went straight to the Aero Club for a debrief - we drank champagne, which was customary in those days, got ****-faced, talked crap and enjoyed each others company...

...or, if it was too early for the aero club the police club across the road ( somebody somehow always had a key).All done on an honour system with usually far more $$ left than had been consumed.

The ‘got ****-faced, talked crap and enjoyed each others company‘ sums up those halcyon days.

[ShyTorque]

Arfur Dent

Even more “sporting” with a strong south westerly wind, which required a steeper right turn

[Air Profit]

....and the bartender "Ah Wing" at the Cathay Club....always remembered what you owed....weeks later...and never had anything but a smile and a polite nod. Gentleman, and miss his friendship and confidence. Halcyon days.

[Bergerie1]

Does anyone know the date when the VOR started operating at Cheung Chau?

[Good Business Sense]

Arfur Dent

...Aye ..... got more than one of those T-shirts.

Turned onto the IGS one night in a typhoon, with a wind at 4,500 FEET straight off the mountains at over 80kts, From memory we went around well before 2,500 feet and wrestled the beast around the corner and through the gap, diverted to TPE, sat waiting for a stand for 4 hours (never before or since have I seen so many wide-bodies), got on stand and two hours later the pax were allowed into the departure lounge where they sat till the next morning some 7/8 or so hours later. We sat in a little mini bus for about an hour and half to something like a bed and breakfast, shared rooms, no change of clothes or wash kit (couldn't get baggage off the aircraft), had about 4-5 hours sleep and then back to the airport. Smelly flight back to HKG. Ehm where days !!!

[Good Business Sense]

Wasn't his name "Wing" - or at least that was the name we all used :-)

[olster]

Very happy days. Remember Adrian well, great guy and a lot of fun. I would never compare the IGS and r/w13 to landing an F4 onto a heaving Ark Royal but it could be challenging but easy on a calm day and you were familiar. A relatively simpler time associated with youth and the excitement then of living in Hong Kong. A nice esprit de corps down route which I suppose has changed unsurprising after a series of managerial outrages.

cheers

[Good Business Sense]

Even more “sporting” with a strong south westerly wind, which required a steeper right turn

Earlier turn.

[ShyTorque]

Technically correct, but in practical terms, it didn't always happen like that if the cloud was very low. I was always intrigued how the Kai Tak ATIS never seemed to broadcast a cloudbase below the approach minima....say no more.

[Max Reheat]

Guys,
I passed close by the Checker Board yesterday, it's looking very sad. I remember a thread perhaps 5 years ago where one of our merry band was trying to get a team together to 'renovate' it, but was stonewalled by bureaucracy. Is the originator of that thread still on these boards?
I am in contact with a friendly LegCo member (ex-CX) who is going to have a go at getting permission at a political level, citing Hong Kong heritage as a case for getting the job done.
If it gets the go-ahead, we will be looking for volunteers, preferably with real rock-climbing experience (its almost vertical) and donations to buy paint (I know these are hard times), the thing is bloody huge!

[MENELAUS]

You’ll need a snake wrangler whilst you’re at it. Have only been around the base of late however festooned with the bloody things. And they’re just waking up.


Sorry. Hong Kong. And Heritage. ? Non sequitur. !
Look what the a’holes did to the Marine Police Headquarters and Stanley Police Station.

[veryoldchinahand]

The checkerboard is now very fast deteriorating and a couple of years more will likely be past saving.
I can't these days clime it but very happy to kick in for the paint cost.

[Gordomac]

Nice read as I "lurk about" FH on a weekend now firmly locked down. AIRBUBBA : Yes, you were right and I can't remember either Although a CX candidate failure & ASL too (sorry), still wound up in and outa HK, at least twice a month on GF 76's. I have a feeling it was a B/c switch which helped us fly out on the inbound course with correct sensing. Survived my last year with GF by passing the A340 chop strategy and can't remember how we got that big Gentleman's in & out of HK. Might have been the new airport which presented no challenge. I suspect Kai Tak would have been a standard Airbus button push ; A?P at 400, LNav, VNav..................now what ? ARFUR : yeah, we were real men but in a company where there were several "Capt Only" T/O & LDG restrictions, Kai Tak was not one. Indeed, often giving the inbound leg to a very talented group of co-joes, I had to admit that most outflew me any way. (Why can I hear Globo thinking 'wouldn't have taken much eh ? ). Marve days.

[Landflap]

Too hard on yourself or tongue in cheek old boy. Not many could outfly you Sir . Other times in the month , you will have been dicing with death in places like Kathmandu where REAL, real men were real men. Back to thread though ; I too was a CX candidate failure but recall going into Kai tak in the back of a BOAC VC10 for the 2nd stage interviews . Crawled out of the 10 a mumbling wreck & wondered if I really wanted to do this. Failed anyway but, like you, went in & out of Kai tak with another carrier , many times. Easy. "Big Gentleman's"................steady on........I think you meant "Big Gentleman's Perambulator " as dear ole Rad referred to the A340. I wonder how they would have got that baby into the checker Board arrival ? Fun times, agreed. .

[thegypsy]

As an ASL failure too went to Kai Tak with Lauda Air .Did a Bangkok followed by KT turn around next day. Joined SQ as DEC on A340 and that was the end of visits there.

[RHKAAF]

In the sixties we had an RAF rule that you could not fly the aircraft into HongKong or Gibraltar unless you had flown there before as a co-pilot. Both airports were only tricky in bad weather. Based in Singapore we would transit through Saigon and spend a couple of days doing " harbour circuits " and visiting the tower.
Years later I spent seventeen years with the RHKAAF and then GFS so got to know HK pretty well. As with most things the novelty wore off as the political situation changed and I finally left in 2000. ( Cripes, 20 years ago )

[Gordomac]

Luvley read during emotive times. RHK, ditto. It was often RHS visit or observer visit. I started my colourful career as a Trainee Crew Rostering Assistant with Cally in 1965. having just failed the first stage selection for Hamble. The Britannias started going into HK and I was put in charge of rostering FD crew for a course in HK operations. Part of the jollie was for them to go to HK where they shot arrivals and deps in a light-twin. I think it was a seven day affair. As the one responsible for arranging the courses I asked CP, (Roy Hermes) if I could go to HK and administer from there. He burst out laughing and continued to do so every time he saw me in the Crawley Offices for months.

[Preon]

Being rostered to operate as the sole cabin crew on BOAC 707 Cargo flights had some benefits including the Hong Kong ‘Checkerboard’ landings the first of which I experienced in October 1970. We were followed in by an RAF Vulcan which had impressed our flight crew with a very rapid descent I guess those big air brakes were very effective. Never saw another Vulcan out there again although they appeared in Nairobi occasionally. Often wondered if Hong Kong was a regular trip for the Vulcan crews?

[3wheels]

Would someone be kind enough to explain to me exactly how the checker board was used. I assume it was not just for visual approaches, or was it?

Was it an aid for instrument approaches? I assume you could do an instrument approach without looking at it at all?

How exactly did it fit in?

Many thanks.

[Meikleour]

3wheels: The checker board had essentially an ILS transmitter fitted to it. It was on a hillside at 390ft elevation and the approach was offset from the runway course by 47 degrees. Thus the approach could be flown in IMC down to a decision height of 675 ft. before a turn to the right to align with the runway was required.

During the times of year when the cloudbase and/or visibility were poor then an approach flown to minimum the checker board would not necessarly be visible at minimum. There was a set of flashing curved strobes which gave a 'lead - in ' to the runway.

For about 80% of the year the visibility and/or cloudbase were above 1,500 ft. and then the checkerboard could be used for visual final placing. In fact it was an accepted practice to "leave the IGS" early and to fly a bit to the north of the IGS course in order to give an easier final turn on to the runway. There was of course also the option from ATC when the weather was really good to fly an abbreviated visual approach up the Western Harbour using Chung Chau, Green Island, Stonecutters Island and then the Checkerboard - this saved about 30 track miles and had the potential to get "rather exciting" if it was not done properly!! ( if you get my drift?!)

Happy days.

[mcdhu]

I was lucky enough as a lad to live on Mount Austin on the Peak from 1957 to 1959. I watched RW 13/31 being built out into the harbour. As it was being built, the way in to the main RW (24?) was around the foothills. Ac of the day were DC4, 6 and 7, Connies, and Electras. I was lucky enough to get an RAF Tiger Moth ride around the harbour. When RW 13/31 was opened, in came the Comet, B707, Britannias etc. Exciting times which I will always remember as a 10 to 12 year old boy. The highlight was the trip out and back in troopships - 26 days each way - which is covered in another thread "What a way to travel" (I think).

[The Range]

Good read. I bumped into this thread a few days ago and enjoyed reading it. I bet it was great to live in HK and fly for CX in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. Best times in aviation.

[High 6]

Loved flying the 13 IGS, worked for a company further south but we operated into Kai Tak twice a week back in the day. Great idea to rescue the checkerboard, good luck with that one, a real piece of aviation history.

[katana]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/img_20210525_wa0016_29a2ec37dfa3356fa76f02e5530b8323e3a7ec3c .jpg

[John MacCalman]

Great to hear this has been re-painted. Do we know who did it?

[CV880]

Further to Meikleour's post #110, to be more precise the GS antenna sat on top of the west facing chequerboard but the LOC antenna was down in the sports ground to the right of the soccer field in the photo showing the newly painted chequerboard.
Re Preon's post #108, RAF Vulcans were rare visitors to Kai Tak in the years I was there (1969 & on). There was one that had an engine issue circa 1969 and was towed over to the Haeco maintenance area for a high power engine run. The noise was deafening but several of us got to have a look inside afterwards before it was towed back to the RAF area.

[Al E. Vator]

https://www.airporthistory.org/kai-tak-photo-special.html

[Sqwak7700]

Rumor has it that Kai Tak will reopen. Thanks to government experts, HKG no longer needs 3 runways, so the new airport will be scrapped and sold for its commodity value.

Don’t you just feel safe all over?

[anxiao]

So that is why there is so much high rise construction going on over at the old Kai Tak. A 40 storey high rise terminal building, why didn't anyone think of that before?

These new boys in government are good...

[Oasis]

And the old boys thought that the old approach to Kai Tak was challenging. Try weaving in and out of those skyscrapers now!

[Rie]

There were some great stories that came out from the old boys. Unfortunately I have had news of the passing of Killa. I heard some amazing stories of his over the years. Thoughts go out to his family. He was a big part of Cathay and many will remember him.

[bigjames]

So this may interest some of the folks on this group. I am playing a rugby match next week for the 28th Squadron Old Boys vs Police old boys. 28th squadron is an RAF squadron that was based in HK before the handover. I am a member of the Flying Kukris RFC, which has its roots in the Shek Kong barracks and airfield. I am also a member of the HK Aviation Club and was a regular flying member until all flight ops ceased due to Covid. I am the only member of the team that is both a Kukris and HK Aviation club member. I was never in the RAF, but I find it interesting that the old boys team of the Flying Kukris keeps the 28th squadron name going. I have not played a full contact rugby match in over 30 years (have coached a lot and played touch) so i may not survive! If anyone wants to come by (or indeed play for us!) the match is Thursday 3 June at 19h00 at the Police Sports and Recreation Club on Boundary Street.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Mike has passed on? How very sad. A good man, raconteur extraordinaire and gift to all that knew him.

[Rie]

Unfortunately he has. He helped and encouraged many people both during his time with CX and afterwards. One of those great pilots you look up to knowing they had something special.

[thegypsy]

Used to do a Kai Tak turnaround from Bangkok with Lauda Air.staying at Rama Gardens Hotel for two days before back to Vienna.

[OK4Wire]

Ah, the Rama Gardens.....

[corrigin]

The last time I stayed at the Rama Gardens was when we operated into Don Muang. The crew bus would take us initially away from the airport (only one way after you leave the hotel), drive a few kilometers, do a u-turn, then head towards the airport. Must admit, I always found the Bangkok Stonehenge interesting….never knew why it was never torn down.

Apologies for the thread drift.

As far as Kai Tak, after an exciting 47 degree turn onto R13 and landing, I distinctly recall the aroma of sewage mainly throughout the cabin; you knew you had landed in Kai Tak.

[ShyTorque]

Sometimes the smell from the “nullah” between the runway promontory and the taxiway was powerful enough to make you retch at the first sniff. I don’t know what it was, but it could turn shiny new brass padlocks a dark purple in colour within a few days. It was also capable of causing problems with gold plated contacts on avionics boxes.

Allegedly, Bob Hope stepped off an aeroplane on his first visit to Kai Tak, took a breath, pulled a face and asked “What IS that smell?” The answer came, “Well, it’s $hit, Bob!” His immediate response was “OK, but in that case, what the hell did they do to it?”

[A320 Glider]

I wouldn't want to perform the Kai Tak landing even if they paid me well.
What an awful approach design and an even worse airport location/layout.

A short runway in the middle of a built up metropolis with water either end of the threshold.
Mountains to the N and water everywhere else.
Not the safest place in terms of degraded aircraft performance.
I'm just surprised there were not more accidents at that field especially when the IMC rolled up.

I would say one thing though. The men and women who flew those approaches down with white knuckles deserve my respect.
It's a shame the field is now a cruise terminal. The least China Hong Kong could have done was kept it as an airport museum or what-not.

[ShyTorque]

A320,

Kai Tak in its final form evolved, rather than being actually designed. The airfield used to be on the area that became the apron.

[t_cas]

The stagnation of harbor water played a large role in such over developed aromas. I am not sure if it has been rectumfied by a civil engineer, simply opening circular flow by tunneling a drain under the runway may have alleviated most of the problem…..

[Oasis]

that's pretty funny

[CV880]

Couple of stories about the Kai Tak nullah (storm drain). In the bad old days Diamond Hill, where the nullah originated was a squatter area where much illegal sewerage dumping ended up in the nullah as did the outflow from some illegal textile dyeing factories. The nullah not only stank but was forever changing colour!

One sunny afternoon when the HK harbour was at its most fragrant, I was handling a BOAC 747 that landed on 31. On plugging in the headset the Captain asked me to witness the opening of the aft cargo door as the cabin crew had reported a nasty odour in the aft cabin on final approach and BA had recently experienced a bad spill in a rear hold that had been detected by the cabin crew. I replied wilco but I think you’ll find the foul smell is external to the aircraft. Nothing in the aft cargo hold and the Chief Purser met me at L1 door as I entered the aircraft and laughingly apologised for the false alarm having stuck his head outside and taken in the fragrant harbour. Actually, that day was the worst foul odour I can remember from the harbour.

On another occasion, BA 747 again, parked on bay 8 which put the right wingtip over the nullah. Unfortunately, the right nav light was inop on taxi in (only 1 lamp per wingtip in those days) and next sector was a night flight to Oz so what to do as no way external ladder or steps could be used. Ended up going out on the wing via R3 door and laying down with head over the nullah and carefully removed the light cover, relamped it and put the cover back without dropping anything. Much use of sticky tape to tape screw to screwdriver and screwdriver to wrist.

On another evening a HK Auxiliary Air Force chopper took off on a rescue mission only to suffer a tail rotor failure shortly after lift off crashing into Kowloon Bay just off the end of the nullah. Crew were uninjured but were held in hospital for about 3 days as a precaution to make sure they didn’t catch anything after coming down in the nullah’s outflow.

Diamond Hill was eventually cleared of squatters and illegal factories and at some point the nullah was covered over to create more ramp space.

[anxiao]

Meeting with government representatives and civil engineers in about 1999 over the future of Kai Tak, we asked about the nulllah and how it could be cleaned up. They offered an oxygenation system of water pumps for starters, which I believe they installed, but when it came to dredging they said no.

Apparently as well as the pig farms and dye factories of Diamond Hill and the catchment area for the nullah, there had been many early electronics factories who washed their effluent straight into the drains. Core samples had shown levels of Cadmium, amongst other noxious metals that were so far in excess of world standards for mud extract that there was no technology in the world that could process it. So they left it there.

We didn't get our GA airport anyway...

[Good Business Sense]

A320 Glider

Was fun in a 90kt typhoon !

[PAXboy]

I was fortunate to be a pax into and out of Kai Tak a number of times, not yet into the new. On one arrival it was very frustrating to have been unable to change my seat and I was in the middle section of a United 743 economy. Usually I nabbed a window. Never had a go round, they nailed it every time. Only interesting moment was a BA 744 on a night departure out over the bay. I was in Club on the right hand window and, about 20 seconds or so after rotation, there was a loud bang from the Starboard wing, sounded like a compressor stall. A few hours later when I was able to visit the flight deck, I asked the FC if that was what I had heard and they said No. But course, fully laden on a hot evening, the Queen just carried on sailing out through the gap no matter what the bang was!

The project I was working on was based at the Kwai Chung container port for HIT. So I had a good view through the window of approaches in towards Stonecutters where they turned off to Starboard and headed for the Chequer Board. One Sunday, I walked from my hotel in Tsim Sha Tsui, followed the approach line up to the chequer board and then down to the fence. Great afternoon to be underneath the big turn.

[CV880]

There must be many stories of "hairy" approaches to 13 but the potentially most dangerous one I am aware of occurred in the early 70's before Malaysia Singapore Airlines had split into MAS & SIA and maybe before the IGS was operational.
Dark night with typical tropical downpour. I was sitting in our ramp office at Bay 5 waiting for next assignment to land when the tower controller said in a most urgent tone "MSAxxx turn right and go around immediately" repeating it once or twice. I stepped outside to see what was up and the MSA 737 went directly overhead (at Bay 5!!) wobbled a bit then swooped over to regain the runway centreline and climbed out through the gap. MSA then requested an ILS for 31 with a tailwind and landed normally. Apparently they had missed the point at which they should have commenced turning onto the runway heading and their landing lights were seen by the tower through the heavy rain heading toward Choi Hung at which point the tower issued his urgent instruction. I heard the next day the chequerboard flood lights had shorted out in the heavy rain but don't know if this was true or just speculation.

[Sea Eggs]

Meikleour

I think what you have described is the 13 NDB approach. We would overfly CC NDB towards SC NDB then turn right towards the airport. I can't remember the DH as it was too long ago. Take a look at this Swiss Air video. The approach starts at 5:45 min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqnit5PXZIo

[Sea Eggs]

OK4Wire

Rama Gardens... a blast from the past.

[Sea Eggs]

Sqwak7700

Hong Kong doesn't need an airport. Shut down CLK and sell the land to the developers. How many skyscrapers can they build at CLK? If anyone wants to travel, just use the airports in Shenzhen Bao'an and Macau.

[CodyBlade]

Part of the 'sunset' for HK plan.

[Meikleour]

Sea Eggs: It was Called the "Visual Step Down Approach" and could of course be done without the aid of NDBs since it was a visual procedure.

[twothree]

"The Visual Step Down" according to G McB!
The object of the exercise was to "spool up" about 400ft final 13 and carry out a normal landing.
However, the start point was about Green Island at 330kts, 1,000ft in the L1011. Without using the speed brakes! So timing of closing the throttles was paramount.
Manoeuvring in the harbour was allowed but 1,000ft had to be maintained until inside Stonecutters. i.e. no climbing to loose speed!
And on another occasion, also with G McB. Unlimited vis. At 8,000ft around TH heading west, told we are number two, 5 miles behind ABC123 carrying out the full IGS. At this point we are at minimum clean speed, and G is rolling his eyes! Ask if there are any further traffic. Receiving a "negative" G requests a visual right hand downwind RW 13. "Cleared". This is going to be interesting!! G turns the L1011 to a point just inside Stonecutters, and with throttles at idle, drop gear and flaps, all within limits. Follow the contours of the north part of Hong Kong island. Carry out a continuous 180 degree onto final RW 13 and spool up the engines as per G's visual approach parameters! Having parked at the terminal and shut down, we were in time to see ABC123 cross the threshold of 13. Them days!!

[PAXboy]

Great story two three. Can you recall what year that was?

[Bueno Hombre]

Originally Posted by Sea Eggs View Post
Hong Kong doesn't need an airport. Shut down CLK and sell the land to the developers. How many skyscrapers can they build at CLK? If anyone wants to travel, just use the airports in Shenzhen Bao'an and Macau.

[twothree]

'81 according to my log book.

[deja vu]

For me the nostalgia associated with Kai Tak had to do more with happier days, great flying, amazing people and a fantastic city to live in or visit. Working for CX or KA was more than a job, it was a fantastic lifestyle. Sadly the rot started with the B scale and new age management hell bent on building a CV. Sad, but good things rarely last.

[Sea Eggs]

'81 according to my log book.

We're from the same era.

[VR-HFX]

23
GMcB was on the first course at Palmdale as an F/O and got his command in early 77, I think. He could get the 1011 to dance for him. His other unusual arrival was to get off the crew bus well before the Tokyo Prince Hotel and simply disappear into the night!
Another execution of the "Visual Stepdown" by PB in the 744 was less appreciated by the next in line on the IGS. HGA who was in the following 744 had to do a GA! There were a few terse words at the Aero Club.

[mngmt mole]

It's hard to think back and realise just how good we all had it, what with both the Aero Club and the CX Club...spoiled for choice, and happy days.

[badge42]

Understatement of..... I was going to say, 'the century', before I stopped myself. Yes, the A-Scalers had it 'good'. Well above and beyond the Aero Club; the best of everything; and after you forced the company to give you another ten years beyond your contractual retirement age and then some, I think we can all agree the A-Scalers had it 'the best' in the history of aviation. And good for you!

[Flying Clog]

The B scalers did alright until November last year as well to be fair. Was a pretty good innings. Massive fall from grace now alas.

Time to move on. Cathay management can't destroy the memories at least.

[dabz]

And now it's the race to the bottom. Pilot remuneration has fallen off a cliff. HK teachers get paid more than pilots and cabin crew paid no more than fast food workers.

That COS18 contract is written on toilet paper.
Reference Part 1, benefits and allowances. That first paragraph says it all, the company can change your money when it wants, however much it wants and they don't even need to tell you... just like when they cut panel doctors off the medical we had without telling any one. (And everyone thought clause 7 was bad in one of the previously turned down negotiations around COS16)

Aviation has become an industry where you start at the top and it's all downhill till you retire on less than you started... all for what?

What are we doing here.... ( if you don't like it leave right?)

[Flying Clog]

Just like the toilet paper our contracts are written on, we have to show them where to stick it. And many, many are. Either to jobs in the US or elsewhere, or to non-flying roles entirely, because the writing is on the wall.

Let's hope it's Cathay that ends up with a generous dose of egg on their face, and rightly so, the opportunistic psychopaths.

Don't you worry dabz, we are leaving in droves. It might get a bit interesting very soon....

[FLCHG]

Interested in knowing which year the Checkerboard Approach was introduced and which types of aircraft of that era flew that approach to runway 13?

The restoration of the Checkerboard has taken place. Two sides South and West have been restored and painted .
South side is fire engine red / white. West side a burgundy / white
Did the west side serve a purpose for the 13 approach and why the darker red ?

[John MacCalman]

It's hard to answer the first question on internet research. I did come across this from the Civil Aviation Departments Archive (https://www.cad.gov.hk/english/kaitak.html)In 1962, a passenger terminal building was built. Turboprop aircraft were being replaced by jets such as the Boeing 707, DC8 and de Havilland comet. The first Boeing B747 arrived on 11 April 1970. In those days to use runway 13 pilots were required to have the runway in slight when the aircraft was near Cheung Chau Island.

In 1974, the visual approach was replaced by the Instrument Guidance System (IGS). With the aid of the IGS the runway could become visual to pilots when they were over the Kowloon Peninsula. This significantly increased the utilization of runway 13 under adverse weather conditions particularly during long periods of easterly prevailing winds.

Don't know the answer to the colour scheme questions though.

[anxiao]

I think you will find that the reason for the slightly different colour scheme for the two faces is nothing more than the paint they had available.

I have had two walls of the same room in Hong Kong painted a different white by the half wit who said that was all they had left in the shop. :}