Social justice at Air Berlin (ex- LTU)

[Brix]

About twenty years ago a tariff agreement was made for LTU pilots where they were entitled to receiving a lump sum as a transitional care when they were retiring at age 60. The contribution to the pension scheme was about 2/3 from the employer (LTU) and 1/3 from the employee. Not only had they enough time to make plans for the period after reaching the age limit, they were also busy forming strong lobby alliances to fight for their interests.

Now that the eCJ verdict of September 2011 (C-447/09) has lifted the age limit to 65 years, what are those guys doing? Air Berlin rightfully says: either they pay back the company contribution or stop working for them. Two implications:

1. They insist in demanding the full contribution amount and to continue working in their previous rank and wage category. And they will go to court for it.
2. They continue to block upgrades for a large group of F/Os who are waiting for this opportunity for fifteen (!) years at least. As everybody knows, as a captain you get a new job on the airplanes Air Berlin operates next week without earning a cent less, but as an F/O you don't have any prospect whatsoever!

Just to give you an impression of what kind of nice 'colleagues' spend their time in german flight decks. The situation has never been more frustrating.

[tailstrike1]

Hi,

I suggest to jump ship and looking for 'greener' pastures in the ME /FE or stay where you are on given terms- after 15 years RHS svc without any upgrade and missing rosy future outlook - hm ??? career change would be my first option


just 5 cents of someone who showed that rotten biz the backside

[el caballero rojo]

Brix,
Although I share some of your frustration to a certain extent.
Can you blaim them? The question is also why those LH captains started that lawsuit in the first place. I guess they were the greedy ones.
On the other hand. Several of the people you target also came back for a Left Seat even after they already had a new job after their retirement ... that is really a way to treat your colleagues. It just confirms that a lot of pilots have egoistic behaviour by nature. It all starts at flight training and gets worse when the job hunt starts. If you try to be noble and humble, it won't get you far in aviation. I know that out of experience.
I don't know if you noticed but I just went down 6 places in the unofficial seniority list.... Guess why!

I have come to terms with it together with that other bull **** I have to live with after the Air Berlin - LTU merger ( yes it was a merger)
Do what most of the pilots do. Buy yourself a nice vintage car or plane.... Or a mistress.... It distracts and might be fun.... LOL
Wait a minute... That is the reason why all those pilots have to continue flying above 60...... No better don't... You might be up the seniority list. :-)

[Piltdown Man]

Put the boot on the other foot (or if you like, see it through the the other guys eyes). The transitional arrangements suited both sides when they were made but the law has changed since. What should have happened is that the initial agreement should have anticipated a change in the law, but failed to do so. Therefore, the only option is to change the agreement in light of the new limits on working age. And telling the guys approaching retirement age to bugger off when they are 60 is certainly not what the should be happening. And I'll bet you that if they go to court they will win! So, what to do?

Firstly, stick together. As soon as you have differing pay grades, salary grades etc. you will end up with in-fighting and you will lose more than the senior guys. Secondly, as soon as you have multiple bands of T's & C's, you'll create the opportunity for even more to be made (a la RYR). You'll then find that those on worse terms than yours will be 'bribed' at your expense.

So what should you do? Personally, I'd insist that you are on the same deal as those above you. So what if your command is delayed for a few years. It's yours and your family's long term future that counts.

[Brix]

Piltdown Man, thank you for your comment. The law hasn't changed. The retirement age of 60 was based on company agreeements both in LH and LTU. Sadly the same people who won the eCJ case were enforcing an arbitrary maximum age for entering the company both as ab initio and as ready entry pilot for decades. This fact, that the same people always sit on the winning side is the problem.

The only advantage I see for myself is when I will reach 60 as a F/O in only a few years the amount I will have to pay back will be smaller than a captains amount. Until then I look forward to the senior guys - who have been senior for the last 20 years - continuing to treat us like dirt on the flight deck.

Altruism is not en vogue these days.

[His dudeness]

So you are jealous, Brix, that is understood.

Now tell me so that I can believe it, that you work for the good of others and you certainly never ever would such a thing as enforce your right ?

Right, thought so...

[Gordomac]

What is disappointing is to read of the horrible atmosphere. Glad to have hung up my flying boots and to look back at the glory days. Definitely had the best. For Veterans to write about being treated like dirt is very sad.

From my balcony, I see guys turning Base on glorious sunny days but think (poor s--s). As a wanabee, 45 years ago, I would look up & be enthused. Dreadful change in the industry & I see nothing to recommend the career to the youth who ask me for advice.

But, I recall, when my fave company went bust in 1991. Like everyone, Cv's flew out of the window & my fax machine caught fire (no emails in those days. Got no replies & got stuck into the Garden. But, then, big envelope with LTU written on it.......Yeah.....I'm in, (I thought). Covering letter started, "Dear...................(yes, Blank). Since you are not a German National, do not reside in Germany and do not have German licences, we are unable to proceed with your application. Supporting data returned herewith. Signed...................(yes, blank). Blimey, hurt a bit but later, realised, I might just have been saved.

My point to all this is that it really is Dog eat Dog ! 60 year olds' will be self centred and push for 65 with all previous agreements etc & will whip the cream off the cake. Those on the "wrong" side of the fence, like Bixie, will be kept there by human nature. Dreadful. I see no solution but offer compassion .

[Brix]

Gordomac, thank you very much for your reply, I really appreciate it. Compassion is a thing that is even included in T & C's of some airlines, ie compassionate leave.

In German Airlines this word is completely unknown.

[joblooker]

at least you have a job... stop complaining...

[truckflyer]

SAS had similar court case few years back, huge problems there that time.

The oldies won, and was allowed to fly until 65 + getting their pensions for the same period, so it was a massive win win for them!
Not sure if they had to wait until retirement before they pensions got paid out to them, but was many stories of bad atmosphere in the company, as FO's was being upgraded as expected.

To be honest, can you blame them, they had the chance to take home nearly double their pay package, I think was close to 200.000 Euro per year, the last 5 years!

[el caballero rojo]

Joblooker.... If you don't want to hear the complaining... Just skip the thread and use your valuable time with sending some cv's. good luck.
That is exactly the attitude I meant. A lot of pilots only care about themselves.
One day you work for this airline and you wonder why there is so much injustice in the pay scales or pensions. I tell you, all of a sudden you start complaining.
Seen it hundreds of times. You better care!

[Cautious]

Truckflyer, you realy should stop posting.
The 10 SAS pilots lost in the High court and were dismissed. No double pay.

Your posts are always way off. Please shut up.


Saken gjelder gyldigheten av oppsigelse av ti flygere i SAS Norge AS - domstol.no (http://www.domstol.no/no/Enkelt-domstol/-Norges-Hoyesterett/Avgjorelser/Avgjorelser-2011/Avdeling/Sivile-saker/Saken-gjelder-gyldigheten-av-oppsigelse-av-ti-flygere-i-SAS-Norge-AS/)

http://www.infotjenester.no/kompetanse/personal/2011/5/sas-frikjent-for-aldersdiskriminering/

[el caballero rojo]

Brix,

apparently there was a court ruling some days ago. Everybody who has 60 as end date in the contract can continue flying but has to repay 1/3 of the bridge payment (between 165.000 and 180.000 euros).
We will see what happens but most probably we will see some CMD openings soon.:ok:
I hope that brightens our cloudy rainy days.