SD Cap Repeaking

[Melchett01]

Can anyone recommend a decent place to get my SD hat re-peaked?

After many years of careful handling, well alright, being jammed into holdalls and thrown around, my SD hat is starting to look a little tired around the peak. I could simply buy a new one, but having seen the ones in the Stn tailors and at various online establishments, many of the ones on offer wouldn't look out of place on a Soviet General. Plus, other than needing a new peak, it's actually pretty comfortable and over the years gravity has helped it assume a slightly less comical shape than when first issued. So if I can get away with repeaking it I would rather do that than go through the nause of breaking a new one in.

A quick Google brings up Herbert Johnson, Ascot Hats and Patey Hats as all offering a re-peaking service. Has anyone used any of these or know of any decent station tailors who might be able assist?

[Courtney Mil]

You are right, Melchett. The new hats on offer are terrible. If you can, love the one you're with.

[Tashengurt]

Surely over time it's developed a certain patina which will make a nice new peak look odd?


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Old-Duffer]

I would go for a new cap which I could then 'train' to my specific needs. It looks smarter and the alternative is very obvious as suggested above.

I had long coveted a Bates SD cap and eventually invested in same. However, when it arrived I realised the only thing about it and Bates was the label inside. Apparently Bates had contracted manufacture to another firm - result - awful shape etc. What's needed is for somebody to invest in a necessary 'frames' - it's not actually called that - to imitate the original Bates design and shape; as a reservist I'll take two!!!

Old Duffer

[Jayand]

Really? Just get a new one. Never understood the fuss about keeping old uniform forever!

[CoffmanStarter]

Melchette ... Not tempted for a bit of fun ? If so I think I'd get one of these reproduction monstrosities produced for the "dressing up brigade" ... swap the badge and see how long people take before you get rumbled :E

http://onlinemilitaria.com/images/UK_RAF_Officer_Peaked_Cap.jpg

Look at the depth of that band :mad:

It's Bus Drivingly awful :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

Mind you at $95 you might as well buy a new proper one ...

Coff.

[Tashengurt]

Triggers New Broom, The Ship of Theseus - YouTube

I think this says it all.

[Al-bert]

I could do you a 'hardly ever worn' Gieves or a very authentic patina'd Bates (complete with genuine Wessex hyd oil stains) for a very reasonable price - a two for one offer might be possible even! :) Go on, make an offer, I'll throw in a beret as well - blimey guv, I'm robbing meself!!

[Fifth_Columnist]

I had mine re-peaked by Snaith's at Cranwell - £95.

I have submitted a 'Threads' report to the Clothing people to complain about the issue hats - I assume from the style that they are made in China by a contractor and, despite the specifications, they find it impossible to make a hat that is not a bit 'PLA'. If you rip out the plastic lining and then remove the steel (yes, steel, I'm not making it up) ring around the crown of the cap, you can make the issue ones at least not look ludicrous. Sadly there is bugger all you can do about the height of the band, which is a good half to three quarters of an inch to tall.

Please, please, please can you all submit Threads forms (available from Clothing Stores) and complain, otherwise my lone voice will never get anything changed. You will never get a decent hat again, because no Tailor makes their own any more - because we recruited too many people who refused to spend money on a hat, and accepted the issue monstrosity, thus 'making their own' ceased to be economical. I always had Gieves and Hawkes hats, but theirs are dreadful now too.

[Melchett01]

I think I rather like Coffman's suggestion ... if you're going to do the Soviet General look, you may as well go for the top!

I have to agree with Courtney - the new hats are horrendous, but as the peak has worn around the leading edge and the white plastic is now starting to show, it's only a matter or time before the eagled eyed RSM notices. Equally, a new shiny peak set against an older hat could be noticeable; the only thing that might save it is based on the different shades of trousers I get every time I go to stores, there must be some old material still out there.

And if this all seems a faff, well yes it is. But with an option point around the corner and as I'm still undecided, it's a toss up whether I get away with the hat for long enough to make a decision hence my prefernce to refurbish rather than replace. But as the senior RAF bod in the HQ, the RSM will take great delight in spinning hat stories for the rest of the tour - it must be a laugh a minute in the WOs' & Sgts' Mess - so I'll have to do something!

[BEagle]

...as the peak has worn around the leading edge and the white plastic is now starting to show...

Glue any flapping bits of material down ('gorilla snot' used to work OK, but it's been elf 'n safety-ed now, I gather). Then a dark blue permanent marker pen applied to the white bits will effect a field repair....

The current issue SD cap must surely have been designed by a North Korean tailor?

[Wensleydale]

The current issue SD cap must surely have been designed by a North Korean
tailor?


The specification called for a hat to be used by a "Career" officer, but it was misheard over the phone.

[CoffmanStarter]

Far more creative solution ... Post the RSM :ok:

[sisemen]

You want silly hats.....

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66666000/jpg/_66666107_017620420-1.jpg (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=u-dO63VHs8UyjM&tbnid=P_WrKThykJQ9OM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld-asia-21974381&ei=rRqKUcGbBIfMkgXp9YDoCg&bvm=bv.46226182,d.dGI&psig=AFQjCNHFS3VvQLGm9HRw_kw-kg05rl-YrA&ust=1368091583390730)

[Whenurhappy]

I've just been back in the UK and got a new SD hat because of my next 'representational' tour. I concur that tjey are simply dreadful, but I look forward to some un-auth'd mods. My old hat from Snaiths is tired but the badge is good, so -I'll move it across (what? George VI no longer the sovereign?)

I did want to splash out and buy from Gieves but I couldn't justify the massive additional cost - especially when the current incumbent in my next assignment (dreadful Americanism) lost 2 in his first year, erm, borrowed by the locals. Result being that he doesn't routinely take his hat unless there's a requirement to take a Salute. At a function with his diplomat colleagues, I noticed that few of them brought their hats; the Aussie Col has lost 2 of his slouch hats and the Kiwi one Lemon-squeezer!

I suggest the look on eBay!

[CoffmanStarter]

Just love this one ...

http://www.thehistorybunker.co.uk/acatalog/rafsnrofficer.jpg

Very Luftwaffeesk :E

[SOSL]

When we joined at Cranditz, we were measured up for, and issued with, a bespoke No.1 and mess kit from Geives & Hawkes; an SD cap from Bates (IIRC) and bespoke (yes bespoke; they put your feet onto a piece of paper and traced round them!) pair of OP shoes from Poulson and Scone.

My next No. 1 was mail order from Au Wai Lam, OP shoes from stores and SD Cap from some place in Newark.

Then things started to go downhill - didn't have to wear No.1s for a long time - seemed to go out of fashion - except for the odd carpeting!

I wore the same mess kit at my final dining out, 36 years later, but station tailors (several) had let it out quite a lot by then.

After a tour at Salalah SD Cap black band was encrusted with salt deposits and posting to Finningley meant I had to get a new one (Newark again) to avoid upsetting the baby navs.

Rgds SOS

[NutLoose]

You could always splash out ;)

Herbert Johnson RAF, Royal Marine and Royal Naval Officers Caps (http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/raf-rm-rn.html)

They also do refurbs

Hat repeaking and refurbishment services (http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/services.html)

[sisemen]

Ahhh. That's more like it!

[Old-Duffer]

And another thing .......... why does a Commander RN have gold leaf on his cap but a Wing Commander RAF does not. This is discrimination pure and simple huff, huff, puff, puff!!

Old Duffer - who really should know the answer

[sisemen]

OD - same reasoning as to why participants in Gay Pride parades wear gaudy and audacious clothing and the rest of us don't :E

[500N]

siseman

What clothing ? They hardly seem to wear any !

[CoffmanStarter]

Our chaps don't need to flaunt gold ...

Just slap one of these on your aircraft and the jobs a good'un :ok:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gb-afwc.gif

[CoffmanStarter]

The quote below identifies the disparity but does not explain why ... But might jog the old grey matter OD :ok:

In the British Armed Forces, and in the armed forces of several other Commonwealth countries, scrambled egg (singular) is a nickname for the gold braid (called an "oak leaf sprig") on the peak of senior officers' peaked caps, and by extension a nickname for an officer. Specifically, Flag Officers, General Officers and Air Officers have two rows of golden oak leaves, while commodores, captains and commanders (Royal Navy), brigadiers and colonels (Army), and group captains (RAF) have one row.

Amongst the one-star ranks there is disparity. Specifically, as Navy commodores are not classified as flag officers and Army brigadiers are not general officers, they only have one row of golden oak leaves. However, the equivalent (but lower in precedence) Air Force rank of air commodore is classified as an air officer and hence has two rows of golden oak leaves. Disparities also exist at the OF-4 rank level with Navy commanders having one row of golden oak leaves whereas their Army and RAF counterparts (lieutenant-colonel and wing commander) do not have any embellishments on their peaks.

[sisemen]

Probably relates to the fact that a RN Commander actually commanded a large ship. Therefore the scrambled eggs was an "at a glance" recognition of the big cheese.

The rank of Commander was formally instituted in 1794, obtainable only by being commissioned to command a vessel, smaller than post-ships but larger than vessels commanded by Lieutenants. After this date, post-Captains were appointed solely from the Commanders list. In 1827, the term became used for the Captain’s second-in-command. First Lieutenants in battleships were made Commanders, although this was an unpopular move with Lieutenants who were actually commanding smaller vessels. It then became the custom to refer to the second-in-command of a ship as the Commander.

The title of commander was a temporary position for lieutenants placed in charge of smaller vessels. Successful commanders (who were known by courtesy on board their own ship's as "captain") could aspire for promotion to captain which was known as "making post". Such post captains were then assigned to rated vessels in the rating system of the Royal Navy

[Chugalug2]

Interesting that the Royal Navy associated the rank with the job, ie Commander, Post-Captain, Captain, whilst the Royal Air Force never did, AFAIK. Hence the whinges from the former about Squadron Leaders commanding Flights, Wing Commanders commanding Squadrons, and Flight Lieutenants commanding nothing except, in common with Flying Officers, their aircraft and possibly their crew. An outrageous generalisation I admit and apologies to all the "outraged of Ouston" that are about to post to the contrary, but you get the general gist.

The Army, of course, remains a mystery wrapped in an enigma, and I for one do not intend wandering into that particular minefield. Suffice it to say, let us celebrate the differences and resist all efforts to harmonise us in the name of jointery.

By the bye, I empathise with the RN lieutenants commanding the smaller vessels being outraged by the uplift in rank enjoyed by those on board bigger ones. Very similar reaction to those Flt Lt aircraft captains on the MRT force seeing their oppos on SRT handed a scraper and hence a pay hike to stop them PVR'ing off to join Freddy Laker. Their comeuppance came about soon enough though, at the hands of the most powerful people of all in the RAF at the time, the Corporals manning Reception in the Route Hotels. "Are you a real Squadron Leader, Sir, or just an aircraft captain?". "Well", drawing himself up as impressively as able, "I am an aircraft captain". "Then your billet is down that way, Sir, with the rest of the crew". Made us feel a whole lot better. :ok:

[teeteringhead]

Old Duffer I heard an interesting tale on hats and scrambled egg from a gp capt of my acquaintance. ;)

He was promoted - somewhat unexpectedly - whilst working in Whitehall. He had often said that if he were ever promoted, he would go straight around to Savile Row (Gieves & Hawkes) to buy THE HAT.

And of course when he recived the good news, he co-workers saw that he "put his (considerable amount of!) money where his mouth was."

Apparently, having got to G&H for his new groupie's cap, they still insisted he try on a number of different ones which were (allegedly) the same size.

"Hand made Sir, so there are always slight variations."

When he settled on one, he could not but notice that it was an "ordinary", ie, cloth-peaked job.

"Don't worry Sir, we replace the peak with one from a Cdr RN's cap!" :eek::eek:

I am assured it's a true story.....;)

[Tankertrashnav]

Nutloose's link gives me the info that Herbert Johnson do a very acceptable SD Cap for £147. My first SD cap from Gieves cost me £7 - 10/- in 1965 when I was getting c £700 pa as a Pilot Officer, thus it cost me something like 1% of my annual salary. I note that currently a Pilot Officer is on c £24,000 pa, thus a decent hat from Herby Johnson is going to cost him much less in real terms than I paid. By the way what's all this about "issue" caps - are officers getting kitted out from station stores now?

Come on you cheapskates - ignore the cheapy alternative and get yourselves a decent hat!

[sisemen]

Come on you cheapskates - ignore the cheapy alternative and get yourselves a decent hat!

I don't think that they instil standards at IOT any more.

[Al-bert]

instil standards at IOT that would be an infringement of 'Human Rights', surely? :E

[BEagle]

I don't think that they instil standards at IOT any more.

Not since the place went comprehensive and adopted some of the attitudes of that place in Bedfordshire.....:bored:

Re. SD caps, I had occasion to need a new one in 2003 :eek: . Quickest solution was to get one from stores - it was just as good as my previous ones from Bates. But what astonished me was the price - only about £18! "Are you sure?", I asked the stores people. "That's what it says here, Sir", came the reply. It was More Than Their Job's Worth to check, so that's all I paid.

I didn't get much wear out of it though as I took the blue uniform off for the last time 2 months later.

[Ripline]

Tankertrashnav,

"Don't worry Sir, we replace the peak with one from a Cdr RN's cap!"

That would work if you didn't mind the dark blue cloth peak........:E

Think he was pulling someone's leg there. Good story, though.:D

[teeteringhead]

Perhaps they really meant this one!

http://gievesandhawkesmilitary.com/acatalog/gieves%20new%20pics%20024.jpg

[Melchett01]

NutLoose,

That was my original question - what are Herbert Johnson hats / service actually like?

It is largely irrelevant now as my hand was forced with a short notice request to take a parade for the CO next week. As I was at Cranditz, I popped into Snaiths and picked up a new one for £81. Could have been worse looking at some of the prices out there and the lady who served me was clearly sympathetic to my plight surrounding the death of my treasured hat and suggested I might want to cut a hole in the lining and remove the plastic band, cut it down by an inch and re-insert it to give a slightly more relaxed look than the regulation design and fit.

Will see how it goes. I might actually pick up a copy of QRs for the first time since I left Cranditz; I reckon a month or 2 between a couple of copies should do the trick.

[Tankertrashnav]

Teeters - actually it's two rows of scrambled egg for Melchett ;)

Google Image Result for http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110105182322/blackadder/images/1/1a/Gen_Melchett.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=en&biw=822&bih=560&tbm=isch&tbnid=zw1FIhTMwcxeLM:&imgrefurl=http://blackadder.wikia.com/wiki/General_Melchett&docid=8YU8_x4s5e83uM&imgurl=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110105182322/blackadder/images/1/1a/Gen_Melchett.jpg&w=797&h=598&ei=-ASNUe2gOvCd0wXzlIDwDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=2&vpy=77&dur=437&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=175&ty=86&page=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=188&start=0&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:163)

[Old-Duffer]

I was never much of a 'proper' officer but I always tried to look the part and did lots of strutting about, slapping my cane against the side of me breeches and saying things like 'jolly good show', 'carry on flight sergeant' and 'stap me vitals'.

I've got a short while to go before I fall out the bottom of the volunteer reserves pot and so I shall invest in one of those posh Johnson things, advertised above. Have to be careful though, the last time I left a decent SD cap in an officers' mess cloak room, I came back to find it covered in oil and looking quite disgusting - must have been the moisture!

Old Duffer