Do-17 salvage starts today

[sharksandwich]

A Do-17 which crashed almost intact off Kent is to be salvaged for Hendon:Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/dornier-17-bomber-english-channel--german-plane-pulled-from-seabed-kent-coastline-145108885.html)
The operation is expected to be completed in three weeks.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK5JIjhYgqE

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Good luck to those involved. Hope I'm still around when the project is complete.

[JW411]

They haven't even finished the Halifax yet!

[Wander00]

Given the aversion of aluminium alloy to sea water, I wonder how much of the aeroplane will make it ashore, but I wish them lots of luck.

[sisemen]

The experts warn not to expect too much

I'll drink to that.

[cyflyer]

They haven't even finished the Halifax yet!
The Halifax is quite an effective display in its "as is" condition thank you very much. Seen it so many times over the years and well done to the museum for the display. If they can produce a similar display out of the Do17 I shall look forward to seeing it. Is there anywhere to keep up with daily progress on the salvage ?

[Tiger_mate]

I wish the RAFM the very best of luck with this project, but there is one element of the plan that I do not like. I understand that they are going to display it inverted as that is how it presently sits on the sea bed. Understandable logic, but it may not optimise what could be an awesome display.

I guess the argument of preservation v restoration would take up a dozen pages so lets not go there. For me, a review of what is brought ashore would be the basis upon which future plans should be decided. I am therefore somewhat disappointed with present plans as a more eye pleasing display could be possible. Rarely is the underneath of an aircraft in isolation a pretty sight.

[sisemen]

Rarely is the underneath of an aircraft in isolation a pretty sight

Particularly if the view is anything like this:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00053/German_bomber_53927b.jpg (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=8xvI_5TqRTzrMM&tbnid=_Kc7CVkQ8LNvDM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Ftto%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Farti cle2716559.ece&ei=PC6GUdC7CsXxkQW4_YCwBg&bvm=bv.45960087,d.dGI&psig=AFQjCNEB2Ek5akj07tAEOnj_CCzxRNwR8A&ust=1367834380170709)

[onetrack]

The media is making a regular noise about the Dorniers tyres still being inflated. I wonder what amount of pressure actually remains in them? I have this vision of the underwater pressure being removed upon return to the surface, and the corroded wheels exploding upon removal from the water by the residual tyre pressure. I guess the salvagers would have thought of that, and found some way to deflate the tyres? :confused:

[DaveReidUK]

Sonar images have confirmed the Dornier Do 17 is in good condition with its tyres still inflated

I suspect that neither of those predictions will turn out to be the case.

[cyflyer]

there is one element of the plan that I do not like. I understand that they are going to display it inverted as that is how it presently sits on the sea bed
Have to agree here. At least right way up............

[jensdad]

2 of the crew died in the ditching. If the remains are still in the wreckage would the usual protocol not be to leave it on the seabed as a war grave? Having said that, if they are still inside, I'm sure that they will be returned to Germany for burial.

[DaveReidUK]

If the remains are still in the wreckage

They aren't.

[Noyade]

A fleet of 1,700 were built as passenger planes before Hitler ordered their conversion to bombers.

Fascinating...

[sisemen]

'Twas in the days when the catchphrase was "Us? Rearming? Perish the thought".

I suspect that the "conversion" was little more than a small tweak.

[WHBM]

A fleet of 1,700 were built as passenger planes before Hitler ordered their conversion to bombers.This is unfortunately a complete nonsense. There were probably less than 1,700 passenger aircraft worldwide in 1939. The Dornier was too small a fuselage for passenger use, and pre-war Lufthansa didn't have any in its fleet, its principal type was the Junkers 52/3m. The only Dorniers operated by Lufthansa pre-war were a small number of flying boats.

[sisemen]

Like I say "Us? Rearming? Perish the thought".

Dornier Do 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_17)

In 1932, the Ordnance Department (Heereswaffenamt) issued a specification for the construction of a "freight aircraft for German State Railways", and a "high speed mail plane for Lufthansa".[1] The factory at Friedrichshafen began work on the design on 1 August 1932.[1]

When the Nazis took power in 1933, Hermann Göring became National Commissar for aviation with former Deutsche Luft Hansa employee Erhard Milch as his deputy, soon forming the Ministry of Aviation. The Ministry of Aviation designated the new aircraft Do 17, and on 17 March 1933, just three months after taking office, Milch gave the go-ahead for the building of prototypes. At the end of 1933, the Ministry of Aviation issued an order for a "high speed aircraft with double tail," and for a "freight aircraft with special equipment," in other words, a bomber. The original design (the Do 17 V1) configuration in 1932 had sported a single vertical stabilizer, and Dornier continued developing that model. The Do 17 was first demonstrated in mock-up form in April 1933. The "special equipment" was to be fitted later, to disguise its offensive role.[4]

........the Do 17 V1 was contracted as a fast six-passenger mail plane

[Noyade]

This is unfortunately a complete nonsense.Absolutely mate. A myth that was debunked by the research of Karl Kössler in the eighties...

http://i39.tinypic.com/2d598l.jpg

[cyflyer]

Some more info here:
Dornier 17 conservation | Whats going on? | Cosford | RAF Museum (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/things-to-see-and-do/dornier-17-conservation.aspx)

[bobward]

Ref the Hendon Halifax, and it's non-restoration. The Canadiand also recovered a Halifax from a Norwegian lake. It's been totally restored, and is now at Trenton's museum. It looks magnificent.

This suggests that the aircraft can be restored, if the will is there. At the time I think the RAFM were thinking of it, but, based on the amount of work it took to restore the nose turret, decided against it.

Can anyone else confirm that?

B

[Dr Jekyll]

What I heard about the Hendon halifax was that the original intention was to restore it, but it was decided that so much of the structure would have to be replaced that this would effectively create a replica.

[cyflyer]

Was looking for any update news and spotted this BBC report that may be of interest

BBC News German Dornier 17 bomber English Channel salvage starts - YouTube

[DHfan]

My memory of the Hendon Halifax is that full restoration was originally planned, until they realised it would take their entire restoration staff 10 years of full time work leaving no time for any other jobs.

[Arclite01]

and if it took 10 years they still should have done it...............

Arc

[JW411]

Ah well, I'm sure the Do-17 is in much better shape than the Halifax.

[Tiger_mate]

According to Sky News, the lift is in about an hours time. However the risk of damage/failure is greater due to recent bad weather, time and financial aspects. Hope it goes well for if compromised due to money, it will be a massive shame.

[Wander00]

Good luck to them

[Tiger_mate]

Abandoned again:

High winds delay WWII bomber bid

BBC News

An attempt to raise a unique World War II German aircraft from the bottom of the English Channel has been abandoned for the night because of high winds. Divers had hoped to begin lifting the only surviving Dornier 17 at 21:00 BST but have decided to delay the bid. A spar, attached to lifting cables and struts in the wings, is to be inserted through the bomber's fuselage, which lies in 50ft of water off Kent. The plan, devised by the RAF Museum, has been repeatedly hit by bad weather.

The Dornier 17 was a mainstay of the German bomber fleets during the Battle of Britain. The salvage attempt at Goodwin Sands was scheduled to take place at midday on Monday but the weather - bright sunshine and calm waters during Sunday afternoon - is expected to deteriorate over the next 24 hours and it was brought forward. But organisers made a decision to call off the attempt because of the weather and the salvage barge is now returning to Ramsgate. Since the salvage barge - GPS Apollo - dropped anchor over the wreck on 3 May, a total of 16 days of diving have been lost and the barge has had to take refuge in Ramsgate harbour four times.

Shot down
The original plan to build an aluminium frame or cradle around the fragile wreck was abandoned after it became clear it would take too long and send the £600,000 project way over budget. Instead, divers are to insert a spar along the inside of the fuselage and attach lifting cables to that and to a pair of struts, part of the original airframe, running the length of both wings. This method is riskier because it depends to a much greater degree on the structural integrity of an aircraft which has spent more than 70 years buried in sand.

The Dornier 17 was a mainstay of the German bomber fleets during the Battle of Britain in 1940. The plane on the Goodwin Sands is believed to be aircraft call-sign 5K-AR, shot down on 26 August that year at the height of the battle by RAF Boulton-Paul Defiant fighters. There were four crew members on board; two - including the pilot - survived to become prisoners of war. The bodies of the other two washed ashore and were buried elsewhere.

If the wreck is successfully raised, the RAF Museum plans to undertake work to preserve it before exhibiting at the museum's main base at Hendon in north London.

BBC © 2013

[DaveReidUK]

Instead, divers are to insert a spar along the inside of the fuselage and attach lifting cables to that and to a pair of struts, part of the original airframe, running the length of both wings.Oh dear, I can see this ending in tears (in both senses of the word).

[LowNSlow]

Good luck to the lift team but I think they' rip the thing to pieces if they use internal structures to raise it.

As an aside, I realise that the Dornier is unique but why doesn't the RAF museum raise the RAF Stirling that's also in Pegwell Bay instead of the Luftwaffe Dornier......

[onetrack]

If the Dornier is actually "buried in sand" as the article states - or even if the fuselage and wings have even a modest amount of sand washed inside them - then the sand would need to be hosed out under pressure before any lifting takes place.
To not do so, will just mean the lifting spar will merely rip straight through the aircraft structure.
The water inside the fuselage and wings adds many tonnes to the weight to be lifted - the buildup of sand would add another 50 tonnes at least to the weight to be lifted.
I hope these people understand what they're about, and don't allow shortcuts due to budgeting limits, lead to incurring a disaster in the lift.

[Rev1.5]

Wouldn't the best option be to sympathetically section the aircraft into easily moveable "lumps"

[sharksandwich]

Rev1.1= that is what they now plan to do. I guess it wasn't as structurally sound as they thought it would be:Dornier Do 17 bomber plane salvage operation on hold - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dornier-do-17-bomber-plane-salvage-operation-on-hold-8641728.html)

[DaveReidUK]

that is what they now plan to doMaybe.

But the article that you linked to makes no reference to any plan to raise the aircraft in sections.

In fact it specifically states "The plan to raise the Dornier has had to be adapted and now involves attaching lifting equipment to what are believed to be the strongest parts of the aircraft's frame and raising it whole, in a single lift instead of constructing a cage around it, which was the original plan."

[sharksandwich]

.

But the article that you linked to makes no reference to any plan to raise the aircraft in sections.

In fact it specifically states "The plan to raise the Dornier has had to be adapted and now involves attaching lifting equipment to what are believed to be the strongest parts of the aircraft's frame and raising it whole, in a single lift instead of constructing a cage around it, which was the original plan."
You are absolutely right. I read what I wanted to read. They are planning to do the opposite, which is to put more stress on the airframe. So hopefully in is in better shape than first thought.

[AirportsEd]

Two new potential weather windows identified:
Monday 10th June between 1530 – 1800hrs and early Tuesday morning between 03.30 - 06.30hrs.
Fingers crossed!

[TEEEJ]

Video of the raising at following link. Well done all involved.

BBC News - WWII Dornier bomber raised from English Channel (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22846645)

[cyflyer]

At last, well done. It does look a lot worse condition than I thought it would be though.

[Evening Star]

Must admit to wondering about the outcome when the team announced a change in the lifting method, so particular well done:D. And got to love the comment attributed to somebody from the Museum, "We'll have her flying in a week.":)

[Phileas Fogg]

A German World War II bomber has been raised from the bottom of the English Channel.

Believed to be the only intact example of its kind in the world, it has lain in 50ft (15m) of water

The English Channel isn't very deep then is it BBC?

[onetrack]

After seeing what they retrieved for the vast sum of money expended, I think I'd be very disappointed if I'd been a financial supporter of the project. That is nothing more than a pile of scrap. I would have spent the money on building a replica.

[cyflyer]

Here's a more decent set of photos :
World War II German bomber raised from sea - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/11/world/europe/wwii-german-bomber-raised/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

[Peter-RB]

Well I dont want to sound Negative, but what in Gods name do they expect to produce to show, as previously stated a new Replica would have been a better bet to spend money on in these tough financial time's, rather than a heap of corroded Aluminium.

Or better still give that money to thye BBMF!! or the Vulcan trust,.... now that would get a load of approval from us all.:D

Peter R-B
Lancashire

[nacluv]

I was at Cosford today, and by complete coincidence the Dornier arrived there this afternoon.

A few shots for you all...

The arrival.
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/2013-06-15-798_zpsb2bd6ebc.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/2013-06-15-799_zpse926b94c.jpg

A sneak peek under the tarps.
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/2013-06-15-800_zps12cba864.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/2013-06-15-801_zpse7932971.jpg

Fuselage section unloading.
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/2013-06-15-808_zps96c2e4f0.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/2013-06-15-809_zpsaf96a54a.jpg

Quite interesting, actually. But the photos obviously can't convey the utter stench of rotting metal coated in 70 years of seabed detritus which pervaded over the whole camp. It was unbelieveable!

[GQ2]

After so very long in saltwater, there was never going to be much to see. As expected, it's a crumbling heap of corrosion. Normally, I'm very supportive of the RAFM's stirling effort, but not on this one. It was clearly misguided.
Sadly, I feel that the large expenditure was driven by a rather distorted, anoraky view of what history really is. After all, will folks go to a museum and run towards it saying 'Look, it's a Do17z'...? Doubtful...
Had it been in freshwater, there may have been rather more to look at. As it is, it's pretty-much a pile of (Expensive.) cr*p... They were about fifty years too late.
I don't know the final figures, but I think it ran into hundreds of thousands of Pounds....money that could easily have been better-spent. As others have said, on a decent replica would have been far better. Wether that money came from the RAFM, MOD, or a sponsor is not relevant.
Of course, there are plenty in the 'Enthusiast' community only too ready to blow smoke up each-others exhaust-stubs on this. Probably the same fools who buy any bit of scrap on eBay related to the BoB and stick on the lounge mantle, doubtless much to the chagrin of their partners...!
If the RAFM must set about this kind of adventure, they'd be better plumbing the depths of the cold, freshwater lakes of Eastern Europe. At least the remains might be worth exhibiting...!

[Wander00]

Thought it was a Dornier not a Stirling.......but sterling effort, nevertheless.

[sharksandwich]

"Sadly, I feel that the large expenditure was driven by a rather distorted, anoraky view of what history really is".
I have chosen this quote as it echoes several made recently.
Actually, what history really is, is to be found via primary sources. This artefact is a primary source from the Battle of Britain- it was in existence at the time. Aircraft replicas, and modern films about the Battle are secondary sources.
Another example: grainy gun-camera footage of a dogfight which has been stored since the 1940s is much more valuable than colour CGI put together by the History Channel. At least in the view of some of us. Another couple of decades and the primary sources will be gone forever. Replicas can be made until the end of time.