Statutory Holiday Pay (SHP) Claim

[cxorcist]

CX pilots,

You are very likely owed tens of thousands of HKDs by CX for their underpayment of SHP. The FAs (FAU) have already won the case and set the legal precedent. The AOA has the expertise to help you get your claim paid. It is very unlikely you will be able to figure this out on your own. Accordingly, non-members should be signing up in droves, even if only out of their own greed. There is a statute of limitations which is fast approaching, after which you will have missed out. Members, please do not share the AOA's tools for getting the claim paid with non-members. We have paid for this expertise. Let's not allow non-members to free load any more than they already do. Make them join and pay their dues if they want the benefits of membership.

Cheers!

[freightdog188]

Is it worth crunching the numbers for the average F/O? Or will it be like 250 HK$ per year, in which case I'm not willing to spend the time and effort on it...

[cxorcist]

Yes, very worthwhile. At least 10s of thousands of HKDs, perhaps close to or more than 100K for some captains. It really depends on several factors which can swing the numbers quite a bit.

[Flap10]

Let's not allow non-members to free load any more

Very ironic statement when the AoA is putting claims after a victorious hard fought legal battle funded by the FAU. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[cxorcist]

Well Flaps 10, you could always contact the FAU yourself and see if they'll help you with your claim...

Why recreate the wheel when the legal precedent has already been set?

[AnAmusedReader]

Flaps has a point. Do you think CX will accept that a ruling in favour of the FAU applies to pilots? When did the FAU win their case? A couple of years ago at least and not a single cabin crew has seen any money yet. Plus what has the AOA actually done until now apart from sending out an update last week? This may well turn out to be as successful a "victory" as the SO bypass case.

[cxorcist]

The point is to get your claim in before the statute of limitations passes. If you don't, then that money will probably never be recovered. How CX choses to respond to the claims is up to them, but at least the claimants will have legal recourse going forward if CX declines to pay. I assume, then, that the AOA would file a class action suit against CX which would be easily won on the basis of legal precedent from the FAU's case.

[BusyB]

I think you will find that the FAU's case was under pre 97 laws whilst the AOA's is post 97 laws and an AOA member has already made a case. Perhaps you should join up AAR?:)

[Didacts and Narpets]

Could you in fact just ask your payroll department? From what a CX pilot has told me, the HKAOA has told members to file a grievance and/or a court case individually? Additionally, are there not bigger issues than SHP that your union has on its agenda?

The question I have is the AOA in fact a recognize union in Hong Kong or just an association with no real power? From my reading it appears that the CPU has achieved more success than the AOA. Why not then join the CPU? Is the CPU in fact a union? Is the FAU in fact a union and then why not join the FAU? Will the FAU in fact provide pilots with information as it pertains to SHP?

From an outsider with a sort of morbid fascination, this seems to be a dog always chasing its tail but I could be wrong.

With what seems to be a myriad of issues, why does someone simply not file a motion for say contract compliance?

Best of luck

[AnAmusedReader]

How do you know I haven't? I actually believe there is a claim to be made and won. However, the AOA cannot file a class action suit. Each member has to make his/her claim personally to the Labour Department. It was the same with the SO bypass claim. There are no pre and post 1997 laws. The law is covered in the Employment Ordinance, which is amended from time to time but hasn't changed too much in this part. What is needed is a couple or more cast iron cases to be filed and won, then CX should pay everyone but look how long the FAU case has dragged on is my main point. Cxorcist is right though - claims should be filed asap as the clock has been ticking for a long time now. Some guys are due a lot of money whereas many are not.

[Flying Clog]

When's the deadline again? Can't find it anywhere..

FC

[BusyB]

AAR,

My partial mistake. Not '97 laws but I think there was an interpretation change in 2007.:p

[ASH1111]

Deadline is July, but we need to be careful on this, as we could rip ourselves twelve days of leave 42-12=30.

We need to get verification of this first, me thinks.

[freightdog188]

but we need to be careful on this, as we could rip ourselves twelve days of leave 42-12=30.

please explain?

[Pomerian]

There is actually no deadline at all in filing the case. There is only a period of retroactivity of six years. So, the later you file, the lesser you can get.

The first 3 FAU cases were filed in 2008, so they can claim back the shortfall up to year 2002. And the cases were concluded in sept 2012.

The pre-07 and post-07 difference was mainly due to the change in formula in calculating the average daily wages - from looking back the previous month to calculate the average to looking back for the previous 365 days (/a year).

The FAU cases were mainly focused on pre-07 issue was because some of the elements to be included in the calculations was not clear and has to be determined by the court -- a matter of principle. The post-07 issue was mainly a matter of quantum. So, after the cases were concluded in sept 2012, it now turns to the amount of the claim which is what they should be dealing at the moment (for both pre- and post- 07 issue).

[cxorcist]

Mine is worth almost $100,000 HK. I'm sure many will be substantially higher, especially those from more senior captains and those who have taken a lot of sick time.

[jonathon68]

Wow. $130+ claim for me. Well worth some paperwork

[SMOC]

Is this not worth keeping to the AOA site seeing we are members.

[cxorcist]

SMOC,

I'd like non-members to know what they are missing, or more specifically how much they are "saving" via their non-membership. Of course, the whole claim is just symbolic of a much greater struggle in which pilots are their own worst enemies. If even one "gets it" because of this thread, then it was worth sharing.

Cheers!

[Arfur Dent]

Why don't we all write to CX FIN and see what they say.?? I will right now.

[crwkunt roll]

Arfur, if you had read the AOA forum you would have seen that a few guys did write to the company as you have just done. They were all given the same " Please discuss this with FOP" as a response.

[Liam Gallagher]

There might be a very good reason Arfur has not read the AOA updates.

Let him write to the FIN Department, let him research the law, let him part with his own cash to get a legal opinion.

But then again, why should he, he has 1700 "mates" who will do it for him. No doubt he will be there at the end with his hand out.

PS. Arfur, if you your are in the union, read your updates and focus on completing your spreadsheets. FIN department know exactly what they are doing and it involves f:mad:King you over.

[firefly2008]

Contrarian view........
It is not unreasonable for the HKAOA to withhold all info re SHP claims from non members, and I am sure the majority HKAOA members probably endorse this policy.

However a few thoughts......
How good would it be to see 3000 HKAOA claim forms in the fleet offices (and the labour department) rather than just 1700?
What message will this send to Management - a unified pilot body?

Why not (devil's advocate) release all the information and spreadsheets to non members? Let's for once get it right......and act as one unified body.

Spin off for the HKAOA......... I would imagine they will have a massive increase in membership, which is what has been needed for many years.

[valhalla634]

I think you have a very good point, Firefly. Why not use this opportunity to show to the " outsiders" that we are all really on the same "team" ( I love that company description) and can do much better together.

[Thunderbird4]

Does that include the "cast-out's" like the AOAC members.

[AnAmusedReader]

Aren't UK based guys cast-outs as well? What about on-shored Aussies?

[valhalla634]

Oz and Uk already in. Why not the Canucks? The more the merrier. Ask ourselves one simple question. Would the company like more or less to file together?

[DropKnee]

Firefly,
I disagree. There must be consequences for non members. If they want the info? They can join up. I am tired of leaches riding on the coat tails of those who have stepped up and paid their dues.

[BusyB]

Anyone can apply to join the AOA. Once in, they have the spreadsheet for their use. Whats the problem with that?:ugh:

[bigbeerbelly]

If you want to use the spreadsheets created by AOA members, you should join the AOA.