USAF Kc135 crash Bishkek

[CargoOne]

Reports of USAF KC-135 crashing near Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?226112-Reports-of-USAF-KC-135-crashing-near-Bishkek-Kyrgyzstan)

[1stspotter]

Kyrgyz authorities tell AFP Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker refueling plane crashed 55 miles from Manas air base
5 persons on board

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Any news on the crew ?

[green granite]

Plane from US airbase crashes in Kyrgyzstan: ministry - Yahoo!7 (http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/article/17001827/plane-from-us-airbase-crashes-in-kyrgyzstan-ministry/)

[1stspotter]

Thanks Aussie Rob. You are correct.

[liider]

Preliminary:AMC 38877

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Was it based there or was it one of 100 sqn from mildenhall

[TWT]

U.S. military plane crashes in southern Kyrgyzstan | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/03/us-kyrgyzstan-usa-plane-idUSBRE9420EH20130503)

Claiming a mid air breakup

[LowObservable]

That is not good at many levels if correct.

First thoughts with the crew family and friends.

[TWT]

Some pics here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?226112-Reports-of-USAF-KC-135-crashing-near-Bishkek-Kyrgyzstan)
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Thaihawk]

News reports idendtify the crashed jet as 63-8877,which should be from the 22nd ARW out of Mc Connell AFB,Kansas.

It appears the KC-135 had only just arrived as it was recorded in UK airspace on the 2nd May calling RCH806 according to www.antonalis.ca (http://www.antonalis.ca).

[AtomKraft]

It's definately from McConnell. It's painted on the fin tip.

What a bloody shame. :sad:

[sleeper]

crash site video

?????? ????? ? ????? ???????? ???????? ? ?? ??? ??? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CuVJIFO_c_M)

[TOWTEAMBASE]

A video.......here we go again !!!!!

[Lonewolf_50]

TTB, nothing to be alarmed about.

That 32 second clip shows a brief visual of what looks to be a crash site, from a distance, and then mostly shows a soldier trying to keep a bunch of curious civilians away from the crash site.
He appears to be acquitting himself in a polite and professional manner. :ok:
End of video pans to road where what appears to be an ambulance is coming to a halt. Quite a few cars parked there already, doubtless how the curious civilians arrived ...

[BEagle]

Very sad indeed. Awful news.

Probably a silly question, but do the USAF have FDRs or CVRs in their 135s?

[henra]

Claiming a mid air breakup

The pics seem to support this claim. There are large bits (Outer Wing and Fin) laying in an area without burn marks on the ground whereas you can see a huge crater (main wreckage) which is widely surrounded by burnt grass.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

RIP

Duncs:ok:

[Just This Once...]

A terrible loss - RIP guys.

The wing appears to sit on unburnt ground with approx T/O flap set. The wing appears to have a recognised pattern of damage not connected with its impact with the ground.

[Tashengurt]

RIP all.

This seems to have the potential for some real problems for the USAF and others.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Lonewolf_50]

BEagle: the AWACS has one (E-3) but my first few probes into my usual info pile hasn't confirmed KC-135 so equipped. Will dig a bit deeper, it may not.

EDIT:

The answer is that they probably do, and AIRINC did the install sometime in the late 90's early 2000's. My source is text of a lawsuit by L-3 that they were fighting the decision to give the contract to AIRINC. 90% odds the answer to you question is: Yes.

[AtomKraft]

This Stratotanker is one of the newer ones. From Fiscal year 1963.

There are some 1964 ones, and they are the very 'newest' examples.

They've been rebuilt (more than once) and re-engined since the sixties but I think there's a fair chance that their sheer age might be starting to show.

IF, it was an inflight breakup- of this very sturdy design- there wont be many that are surprised.

I swa one in D-M once with 'Stone Age Mutant Ninja Tanker' nose art. :ok:.

I could understand that. (It was a 1955 model though...)

[Mr. Dash]

1) The KC-135 has both a FDR and CVR.
2) Normal crew of three
3) No parachutes since 2007ish
4) The Aircraft is a McConnell Tail. However, it could have been crewed with pilots and booms from the the 30 or so tanker bases in the US, Europe, and Asia. Expect that informoration as soon as thier families are notified.

[VinRouge]

Menas metar reported CB activity at the time of the crash. RIP and thoughts to all involved.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Isn't this the airframe the RAF bought to replace the Nimrod that's half the 707's age , another quality government decision if it does turn out to be fatigue !!

Thoughts with family and friends of the crew

[TOWTEAMBASE]

And another bit of quality news reporting on sky news app under world news, shows a pic of, and also claims to have been a herc ;-)

[RetiredCrewDog]

According to this broadcast/article the crew was from Fairchild AFB. They also say they have not located the cockpit yet. From the photos it sure looks like it's pretty much in a small heap. Seeing reports of midair breakup possible.

Plane from McConnell AFB crashes in Kyrgyzstan - kwch.com (http://www.kwch.com/news/kwch-news-jlr-plane-from-mcconnell-afb-crashes-in-kyrgyzstan-20130503,0,6640705.story)

[EW73]

I know the 707 did, but does the E-3 and KC-135 carry a Flight Engineer as normal minimum crew?

[vascodegama]

E3-yes

KC135 -no

[Eclectic]

Just This Once said on here: "The wing appears to have a recognised pattern of damage not connected with its impact with the ground."

Activity Stream - Military Photos (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums) said: "according to witnesses plane was flying low and burning, then it exploded in midair and disintgrated into three parts."

BBC BBC News - Bodies of two US pilots found after Kyrgyzstan crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22409924#TWEET743984) said: "Witnesses said they saw the plane, believed to have been laden with fuel at the time, explode in mid-air."

[Jet Jockey A4]

Yahoo! News Canada - Latest News & Headlines (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/bodies-2-us-crew-found-military-plane-crash-082402382.html)

[Eclectic]

More from Associated Press: BISHKEK, Kyrgyzstan: Bodies of 2 US crew found at Kyrgyzstan crash site - World Wires - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/04/3380059/bodies-of-2-us-crew-found-at-kyrgyzstan.html)

...........The KC-135 plane crashed Friday afternoon about 100 miles (160 kilometers) west of the air base that the U.S. operates in Kyrgyzstan to support military operations in Afghanistan..................

................Residents of the rural, sheep-herding region described hearing the plane explode in the air and seeing it break apart as it fell.
"I heard a very loud explosion," Emil Bokochev, a member of the village council, told an AP reporter at the site. "Literally six or seven seconds afterward there was another explosion and the plane broke apart into four or five pieces and at that moment we thought it was going to fall on the village Chaldovar."....................

[Lonewolf_50]

Mr Dash: thank you, sir.

Latest pictures: :{

[Load_gone]

In post 10, there is a link to a military photo forum with this post: Reports of USAF KC-135 crashing near Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?226112-Reports-of-USAF-KC-135-crashing-near-Bishkek-Kyrgyzstan&p=6689413&viewfull=1#post6689413)

If you look closely, the fuel tank cap is missing with a fuel stain around the hole. When the tank cap is correctly installed, the cap locks into place and is impossible to remove unless you intend to do so. The locking lugs appear to be undamaged. I wonder if a cap wasn't installed correctly.

RIP to the crew.

[Phoney Tony]

Lets hope they find out quickly what happened and are able to fix the problem.

[oceancrosser]

I know the 707 did, but does the E-3 and KC-135 carry a Flight Engineer as normal minimum crew?

E3-yes

KC135 -no

Slight thread drift, but with the KC135 being late 50's-early 60's vintage, how did they get rid of the Flight Engineers panel? Disperse the systems panels around the pilot positions?

Back to the thread, if this comes out to be in any way related to the age of the airplane (50 years!!!), that would probably have significant implications for the US military, still having hundreds of KC135s flying.

[Phoney Tony]

The MoD are just about to try and get RTS for the Nimrod R replacement.

Timing could not be worse!

[Madbob]

After 40 odd posts there seems to be an acknowledgement of there having been an in-flight break-up and various speculations as to the cause. CAT, fatigue or simple old age.

No one has voiced the possibility of there having been a bomb planted in the ac. What is security like on the ground and what chance is there that an un-wanted "package" was place on board?

MB

[Eclectic]

Would the plane have been within the envelope of a MANPAD?

Salafists in Syria have access to Chinese FN-6 missiles with a range of about 6km and a max altitude of about 3.5km. Also SN-24 missiles with possibly similar capabilities.

[SASless]

So...inventory of possible causes....

Bomb
Manpad
Wing Spar Failure
Fuel Tank Explosion
Loss of Control
Mid-Air Collision
Meteor Shower
Turbulence

What did I miss?

[BEagle]

And there was I hoping that the tinfoil hate idiots, MSFS geeks and the like were confining themselves to endless pages of drivel about the cause of the B-747F accident at Bagram....:rolleyes:

Always easy to spot a timewaster on the Mil board - they refer to a woodworking tool rather than to an aircraft. They probably couldn't tell you the difference between an 'aircraft' or an 'aeroplane' either....:uhoh:

SASless, apart from multiple birdstrikes, I can think of another possible explanation, but am not going to post it here.

[melmothtw]

I can think of another possible explanation, but am not going to post it here.


Then why mention it?

[Lonewolf_50]

What did I miss?
"The hatch just blew!"

Given where it was flying, I am trying to puzzle out how someone comes up with SAM/MANPAD as a factor.

It's a reach, eh? A long reach, even ...

[lj101]

The crew - RIP


Air Force names airmen killed in Kyrgyzstan KC-135 crash - Air Force - Stripes (http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force/air-force-names-airmen-killed-in-kyrgyzstan-kc-135-crash-1.219776)

[Lonewolf_50]

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

[BEagle]

PLEASE no-one post that sickly 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' clichéd crap....:(

The point I was trying to make, SASless, is that many of us might have our own ideas, but will NOT post them in a forum infested by people who are frankly not qualified to comment - and whose drivel merely diverts attention....:ugh:

[cpants]

SASless: Add to your inventory of possible causes, "Aft Cabin Pressure Bulkhead failure due to fatigue and corrosin".

[Brian Abraham]

they refer to a woodworking tool rather than to an aircraftBetter get used to it BEagle. The word, usually preceded by an apostrophe, has been in use since the earliest days of heavy than air flight. Unless preceded by the apostrophe, the word in the days of old, meant "wing". Remember when you used to be a gay chap? Not any more though. Meanings change, and not necessarily for the better.

[melmothtw]

Remember when you used to be a gay chap?


Epic thread drift! ;)

[BOAC]

.....also an assumption................:)

[Al R]

Well, it is a rumour network..

[earwigger]

I can't help but think of the similarities between this and the Nimrod crash. God bless all of those lost and those they leave behind.

[Phoney Tony]

Has the KC 135 fleet and variants been grounded?

[SASless]

Brilliant Question.....grounding the entire 135 fleet would do "What" to Combat Operations extant?

What do you think the chances of that happening are?

[Dysonsphere]

Brilliant Question.....grounding the entire 135 fleet would do "What" to Combat Operations extant?

What do you think the chances of that happening are?

ZERO and even more Zero

[Old Fella]

Seems to be that some believe the B707 and the KC135 are one and the same. They both share the same genesis, the Boeing 367-80. The KC135 pre-dates the B707 by about 18 months, is a narrower and shorter airframe with different construction.

Apart from training flights the aircraft would have been predominately subjected to heavy weight take-offs and over time has been given significant engine upgrades. The type first entered service in around 1957, fifty-six years ago. The last production airframe was built in 1965 so the accident aircraft was at least
forty-eight years old.

Hopefully the cause will be determined and published, otherwise we learn nothing.

[herkman]

It uses the same basic airframe as the 700 series which means the floor is approx 15 inches narrower and so is the cabin shell.

Makes me very sad that good men and women go in harms way and their service is not appreciated by many.

Lest We Forget

Regards

Col

[Phoney Tony]

SASless Brilliant Question.....grounding the entire 135 fleet would do "What" to Combat Operations extant?

What do you think the chances of that happening are?


I would hope the risk owner has carefully balanced operational requirement with operating a platform with a potential fleet wide problem. If indeed the fleet is still flying it would indicate:

The operational need outweighed individuals risk.
The fault was understood and manageable.
A mixture of both.

[SASless]

Operational necessity precludes grounding the entire fleet.

Simple enough.

Even if they found something of interest/concern fleet-wide....they would have to do a phased program of inspections all the while meeting Operational requirements.

The Air Force could alter some demand by altering the way they operate but Combat Operations would have to continue even at some risk if need be.

The Tankers are not hauling blue collar folk on sunshine holidays....they have a mission that requires they be there to pass gas.

[VinRouge]

they have a mission that requires they be there to pass gas.

What mission is that exactly? Seems pretty irrelevant these days bearing in mind how long we have been fighting it and how little seems to have been achieved.

[galaxy flyer]

To answer the flight engineer question, there never was one in the KC. SAC generals weren't having enlisted crew members in the front end, period. And no flight engineer coming from maintenance was going to be commissioned. Boeing designed the cockpit so the pilot and co-pilot handled all the systems.

GF

[Old Fella]

As a former F/E I have never understood why the F/E and/or L/M are any less entitled to hold a Commission. In my civvy employment in the role the F/E and F/O were on the same pay scale with the F/E often earning more than the F/O by dint of seniority increments.

[lomapaseo]

As a former F/E I have never understood why the F/E and/or L/M are any less entitled to hold a Commission. In my civvy employment in the role the F/E and F/O were noth on the same pay scale with the F/E often earning more than the F/O by dint of seniority increments.

A reverse side to this is why commission a FO ?

Once you answer that then you see why the 3rd man in the cockpit must hold a lower rank in a rank led environment. The pay scales then are secondary since they follow rank.

The civvies don't necessarily have the same dependence on pay scales following rank.

[Old Fella]

The Captain is the Captain regardless of rank. It is, however, a team environment with each having a role to play. My point is, what makes any member more or less deserving of a Commission?

[Phoney Tony]

Do the US share info if their ac (E3, C17, C139, CH47 etc) have a fleet wide problem? Is it a mandatory requirement or something that is written into a contract and therefore negotiable?

[NutLoose]

They are trying to raise funds for the families in this tragedy, please see


Shell 77 - CustomInk | Campaigns (http://campaign.customink.com/shell77)

I don't know if they do overseas though some of our US visitors may wish to know about it.

[Lonewolf_50]

Vin Rouge: try not to mix the political hijinks with the day by day mission requirements to go out and refuel another aircraft. Your post is an insult to the people still in the field, though perhaps you didn't intend that.

[VinRouge]

It's not an insult, it's a statement of the bleeding obvious.

[Lonewolf_50]

No, Vin Rouge, it's load of crap. At present, people are deployed doing what they are supposed to do. That is their mission. It's very clear to the men and women flying those missions each day. Whether the mission supports a political end you agree with, or is sensible (both points worth pondering in terms of the political military interface), is a completely different matter.

Not only do you know better, I suggest that you consider keeping that snarky political crap out of the discussion of this accident.

There are lots of politically themed threads for anyone to share points on the con and pro of what is going on in Central Asia. Many of us do, and provide varying points of view and opinions.

Within the context of this crew, they had a mission that day, to support the mission of the day, and give someone some gas as is their role. They didn't return. It could have happened to any of us on a given day in wartime, peace time, or whatever the in between is called.

[Phoney Tony]

Do the US share info if their ac (E3, C17, C139, CH47 etc) have a fleet wide problem? Is it a mandatory requirement or something that is written into a contract and therefore negotiable?

[Lonewolf_50]

Tony, are you referring to the armed forces, or to the manufacturers?

You question is far too broad.

[Phoney Tony]

I mean the military types. KC 135 blows up mid air......will we be told why/ how it happened so we can be assured that our RC135s are safe to operate?

[Greg Horton]

So...inventory of possible causes....

Bomb
Manpad
Wing Spar Failure
Fuel Tank Explosion
Loss of Control
Mid-Air Collision
Meteor Shower
Turbulence

What did I miss?

Well, you missed pilot/crew error...

...which is always a possibility, and judging from the debris distribution and the manner in which the parts impacted the ground (falling near vertically with almost no horizontal component) it would seem that you couldn't at this point rule out a high-altitude stall followed by overstress of the airframe during recovery attempts.

A view from the inside (flying KC-135s for 15 years).

The mishap aircraft was a bit over 100 miles downrange from Manas which means they would have reached and leveled off at cruise altitude. In a refueling mission this is often an action point. Upon leveling off we would check and confirm mission timing (to meet either original or revised timing for a standard point parallel or enroute type rendezvous or to support a simple arrival time for an anchor area "on station" period). And we would begin making decisions regarding where to move fuel quantities (if necessary) in anticipation of later refueling activity (i.e. draining fuel from the wing tanks to the aft body tank which both prepares it for offload and moves the aircraft's CG aft for more efficient cruise flight, and possibly draining some of the center wing fuel into the forward body tank which is sometimes done to counterbalance fuel drained into the aft body tank).

Here's how I could imagine pilot error entering the picture in this incident: Upon reaching cruise altitude the crew may have discovered they were running early for the rendezvous (either original or newly revised timing). So they might have pulled the throttles back to slow to endurance mach speed. If a distraction occurred in the cockpit at this point and the aircraft continued to slow a high-altitude stall could have taken place. If after leveling off they'd also begun draining fuel aft from wings to the aft body tank the situation could have developed rapidly.

[Chugalug2]

Bit late on parade there, Greg. Our MOD apologists had pilot error down as the cause of the Mull of Kintyre Chinook tragedy within hours of it happening, later confirmed as Gross Pilot Negligence by the Board of Inquiry Reviewing Officers (sort of Generals). Seems they were all greatly in error, and that the aircraft was unairworthy and "positively dangerous". Who'd have thought, eh?

[DALMD-11]

Have there been any reports at all on the true cause of this crash ?

[Phoney Tony]

Has anyone heard anything yet?

[SASless]

Greg,

How many incidents of just that happening in the past?

[downsizer]

Cause here....

http://www.amc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123403437

[Just This Once...]

Typical USAF report. Establish a tech problem with the aircraft, establish that there were no failure indications for the crew to diagnose, establish that there was no training in place to diagnose such a failure yet still find a reason to shift some blame on to the crew.

[Jet In Vitro]

JTO,

Let's hope that lessons learnt are pass to UK operators of the airframe so this problem never happens again.

[Just This Once...]

It seems that Boeing believe that it will take them 2 years to do the full top-down assessment of the rudder and FCAS and to prototype any modifications required, so it looks like the underlying issue will be with the 135 community for quite some time to come.

[SASless]

As the 135 has been in service for more than a few decades....why is this considered a new problem?

[Wander00]

Rivet Joint........?

[GreenKnight121]

Probably because this is either the first time this particular problem cropped up after in-flight recorders with sufficient data-paths to diagnose post-crash were introduced - or it was the first time it wasn't squashed so early on by the pilots that it never came to anyone's attention.

[Onceapilot]

Thankyou for posting the link downsizer.
Hmm... Dutch Roll. I am interested if this is really a pure aerodynamic Dutch Roll or, more of an "inertia coupling"? The 135 could have been carrying 90t of fuel in a 45t airframe. This cause does not sound good at all!:uhoh:

[glad rag]

Typical USAF report. Establish a tech problem with the aircraft, establish that there were no failure indications for the crew to diagnose, establish that there was no training in place to diagnose such a failure yet still find a reason to shift some blame on to the crew.

Think you are 100% on the ball.

:(

Ref: Investigation board determines cause of KC-135 crash in May (http://www.amc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123403437)

"Upon takeoff, a flight control system malfunction, the board found, generated directional instability, causing the aircraft's nose to slowly drift from side-to-side or "rudder-hunt." This condition, not fully diagnosed by the crew, progressed into a more dangerous oscillatory instability known as a "Dutch roll." The board identified that a poor layout of key information in the inflight manual and insufficient crew training contributed to the mishap by detracting from the crew's ability to act on critical information during their troubleshooting to turn off either of two cockpit switches which may have eliminated the malfunction.

Having not recognized the Dutch roll condition, the crew initiated a left turn to remain on-course along the planned route of flight and used a small amount of left rudder to coordinate the turn. The use of rudder, while in a Dutch roll, increased the aircraft's oscillatory instability. The ensuing large side-to-side movements of the aircraft varied the crew member's foot pressure on the rudder pedal which caused inadvertent fluctuations in rudder position. These fluctuating rudder movements, coupled with slight right rudder use while rolling out of the turn, compounded the Dutch roll severity and produced extreme airframe stress that caused the KC-135's tail section to separate from the aircraft. The subsequent, uncontrollable descent resulted in an in-flight explosion."