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Wedcue
28th Apr 2013, 04:13
Recently a couple of senior pilots from EK with Boeing widebody time joined Qantaslink. They haven't joined to fly turboprops.

6 months ago 2 pilots left JQ to join Qantaslink in very senior positions.

Qantas Short Haul EBA is being negotiated.

Rumour has it, the 787's are to join Qantaslink. Not A320's or A319's as everyone thought earlier.

Discuss.

goodonyamate
28th Apr 2013, 04:32
a family friend in the top 20 at qlink said something to me recently...

"mate we have been getting jets next year for the last 25 years"

if mainline wanted to get rid of pilots, they would have done it already. they need us. it was all about getting the best possible deal for the company before the 787 shows up. the next negotiations will show this as well.

of course....if we had a group seniority list then it wouldn't matter what part of the group they went to....

newsensation
28th Apr 2013, 04:34
Hahahahhaa hahaha haHa ha:D

Normasars
28th Apr 2013, 04:39
Wedcue,

IMHO I would be very surprised, When these individuals were interviewed for said positions, surely it would have been a discussion point during the interview process that "The Group" is evaluating putting the B787 into QLINK and what can "you" bring to the table??

And having said that, "loose lips sink ships" as the saying goes. And again surely if these discussions did infact transpire, then there would be some kind of "leak" or rumours circulating to the effect.

Just my HO of course, but the entire Seniority system and introduction of a new type onto an existing AOC with said very regimented seniority structure would not be worth the grief from the Company's point of view. A "Greenfields" set up would be a whole lot less hassle btw! If not, there is already another "Group" AOC which has HC Jet Ops already on it. Is it a coincidence that this AOC Holder is currently in the process of seeking RPT Approval from CASA???????

Mstr Caution
28th Apr 2013, 04:45
QFlink

A319's to leisure destinations & regional ports with QF livery & Link dropped from the signage.

Operating out of QF domestic terminal with an all economy cabin.

Oh hold on, wouldn't that compliment the mainline brand & compete with another subsidiary?

Compliments the internal banter I heard recently of mainline to QFlink LOA available for mainline drivers.

Lyell Strambie's pulling the strings at QFlink.


MC

Fuel-Off
28th Apr 2013, 04:53
Clarity required me thinks...

Recently a couple of senior pilots from EK with Boeing widebody time joined Qantaslink. They haven't joined to fly turboprops

An opportunity to get back home to Oz perhaps?

6 months ago 2 pilots left JQ to join Qantaslink in very senior positions

They were seconded into management positions (CP and CAR217 manager) because the previous management, famously 'The Bankstown Aero Club' couldn't handle a growing airline with a GA mindset. Q400 and its 'Jet-Like Speed' with C402 SOPs :mad:. Oh and they were constantly re-inventing the wheel again...and again...and again...and again...:ugh:

Qantas Short Haul EBA is being negotiated
So is the Eastern EBA this year, which means F:mad:K all. I would say the 787 will be appended on the SH EBA...don't know if or is legal regarding the clauses in the LH EBA. Anyone care to elaborate? Keg?

And finally,

the 787's are to join Qantaslink

Have you been in the diesel oil again Wedcue?

On a side note though...
if we had a group seniority list then it wouldn't matter what part of the group they went to

I find this a common topic being sprouted by Mainline drivers far more often the those in the regionals. We've all been part of a happy family for all of what...20 years? Since the merger of '93 (TN/QF). Group seniority from the regionals was approached to and subsequently shot down in flames with the ashes shat on and buried by the then upper echelons of the mainline piloting fraternity. So my question is why are the mainline drivers purporting this notion only now? The cynical me looks at the fact the QF drivers' careers/livelihoods is being threatened and SSA/EAA appears to be going nowhere but up. The merger was before my time so the politics of yesteryear shouldn't be factored into today's argument.

Keep the responses civil kids...

Fuel-Off :ok:

Mstr Caution
28th Apr 2013, 05:00
Didn't Strambie come out & say in the last fortnight or so he wants QF branded 787's flown by mainline pilots.

I have long been a supporter of a group seniority list because its the fairest system to provide promotional opportunities for all pilots in the Qantas group.

goodonyamate
28th Apr 2013, 05:20
re strambie, apparently so!

kellykelpie
28th Apr 2013, 07:47
Goodonyamate - very naive post!

Qlink will be a force in the next few years. As for needing us Mainline pilots - they won't need us as much when Qlink have Jets...

OneDotLow
28th Apr 2013, 09:12
Setting up a cheaper operation is not as simple as just getting a cheaper group of pilots. Eventually the group of pilots want to be paid what their counterparts overseas are being paid, or they start leaving. The exception is a small market such as NZ, where they have limited success.

QF are smart enough to know this, and they know that they can get the 787 crewed for market rates (current somewhere between 767 & A330 rates would be a good guess). They know they need to pilots to crew it, although exec management are not feeding much information down the chain to those who set establishment levels. QF currently have the benefit of being able to use pilots leave balances with twofold benefits : 1) they reduce their liability, 2) they get to hang on to the crew they need down the track. Why would they make pilots redundant if they can reduce leave balances whilst keeping a sufficient level of crew for a probable future expansion plan.

They would have gotten rid of pilots by now if they didn't need them on an ongoing basis and both we and they know that if they did try to crew it cheaper, it would be a very expensive fight with little longer term gain.

Qlink do a great job at what they do and where they fly. I don't know if they will end up getting small jets, but I'm pretty confident they won't become a long haul operation overnight sometime in 2016.

Compylot
28th Apr 2013, 10:11
I too wonder about said pilots and their real reasons for joining 'The Link'.

I was at a BBQ recently and a few of us found ourselves discussing said developments at 'The Link' and can confirm that one of the guys present who isn't quite in a senior management position but has his finger on the pulse reckons that there have been a few guys join lately that have said widebody experience.

Methinks there could be some interesting times ahead :ok:

Watch this space.

nitpicker330
28th Apr 2013, 10:19
Crap, bull and rubbish.

So, some EK Pilots decide to grab a job in Oz at management level on fair pay and you think that means QLink are getting Jets!!

Maybe these Pilots just wanted a reasonable job back home and this is what they could get. Not much else on offer especially if you like the management lifestyle.

2+2 doesn't = 5. :D

Belmontboy
28th Apr 2013, 10:20
Ahh now I get it you give Jetstar some Q400s to run domestic in NZ for a direct swap of some A320s.

mikk_13
28th Apr 2013, 10:35
I guess the rumors get wild when a company has no leadership or direction.

Fuel-Off
28th Apr 2013, 11:15
Rumours get wild when management keep their cards very close to their chest. JG has openly said new jet equipment will be sourced and utilised in the future to meet capacity requirements. As to who crews them...that's another story.

Fuel-Off :ok:

Watchdog
28th Apr 2013, 11:17
EK guys wanting to come home (and that's most of them after about 7 years) will take just about anything if there is a base that suits them. Any "shiny jet syndrome" is well and truly worn off - and would happily swap a depressing 0200 departure for a solar powered Q400. :ok:

Good wind up, but I wouldn't read anything more into it. :suspect:

Keg
28th Apr 2013, 12:41
So my question is why are the mainline drivers purporting this notion only now?

Fuel-Off. You're new to prune compare to some of us. A lot went on in the decade before you joined- although I do acknowledge the possibility of a different handle. If you've been around a while though, surely you would have read QF pilots agitating for a group list long ago? Heck, it was a formal part of our EBA submission in 2007 and 2008. So lets drop the 'only now' stuff. Some of us have been banging on about it for nearly a decade and a half.

As to the 787 being negotiated on the SH EA? I wouldn't think so. There are already provisions in the LH EA around the introduction of new types. FWA basically told QF and AIPA to negotiate 787 rates when they start negotiating again for the EA to commence from 2015.

Fuel-Off
29th Apr 2013, 00:16
Thanks Keg for that clarification. Let's hope something decent comes out of the EA negotiations in '15.

I'm a long time reader (been in the industry for about 15 years), recent poster here at prune and like yourself have noticed a change to a want for group seniority. As for the 'only now' stuff, I think that may have been misconstrued as something said in cynicism, that wasn't the intent. Perhaps a politically neutral phrase like 'in recent times' is more apt. :O

So we know the whole jet thing is a red herring. A318/A319 is plausible..ish. 787 is stuff worthy of a Benny Hill sketch.

QF Group seniority has been brought up in these forums time and time again with all of them disintegrating into belligerent, petty squabbles with at least one group accusing the other of doing something over 20 years ago and apparently that's the reason we can't change something for the better NOW. Is it possible for both AIPA and AFAP to approach the table with a clean slate and start deliberating on how group seniority can work for our future ranks of pilots? No self-serving ulterior motives or puppet string pulling from either side (the war that can't be mentioned, shouldn't). A mutually agreed and beneficial proposal can then have a staggered introduction to each groups EA when it comes for renegotiation (EAA and SH this year; SSA next and LH the year after). VIPA and the AFAP managed something in their last EBA (albeit with some objections, but you can't please everyone.)

The EBA submissions the LH had put forward to FWA recently regarding a pseudo-group seniority was a great step forward, however I think it was slightly interpreted by the other groups as one-sided. As I read it, (happy to be corrected - this is after all, an adult conversation) pilots could go from other QF subsidiaries to mainline provided that they have LWOP provisions in their respective EBAs. Well, no one else does! (I know JQ have something regarding to moving to other facets of the JQ business abroad and not losing their seniority back home). It's a big thorn on the side of the regional pilots, to which management flat out refuses to negotiate on. Career progression is a biggie, as seen in the EAA survey results just recently. The younger pilots of tomorrow would love to be able to eventually move on to mainline or JQ and stay within the group. There's nothing wrong with a senior JQ or QF skipper wanting to go into semi-retirement on a Q400 (it's a fun speed boat :ok:).

But then I wake up to reality...QLink management (previously anyway) won't merge the EAA and SSA seniorities when the pilot groups agreed on a proposal!:ugh: I know this post is a tad optimistic or read, naïve. But I hope this is just something to start a constructive debate on.

Fuel-Off :ok:

czechmate
29th Apr 2013, 00:55
There is a rumour going round the traps that a few senior qlink folk will be jumpseating sectors at jq in the coming weeks to 'observe' airbus procedures....

QFLINK717
29th Apr 2013, 01:36
Qantaslink all ready operate Jets. 13 in the
fleet last time I checked with 5 more on their way due
for delivery by the end of this year. QF have just
invested in new cabin refurbs and and extra 10 seats.
Don't see the Boeing 717 disappearing to soon. :hmm:

waren9
29th Apr 2013, 02:05
There is a rumour going round the traps that a few senior qlink folk will be jumpseating sectors at jq in the coming weeks to 'observe' airbus procedures....

airbus procedures shouldnt be confused with jq procedures :}

newsensation
29th Apr 2013, 05:27
Qantaslink, operate 717's through Cobham a company they don't own.

Question will a Group Seniority List be on a Date of Joining basis? because there are a lot SSA & EAA pilots who have been around a long time.

maggot
29th Apr 2013, 05:54
Question will a Group Seniority List be on a Date of Joining basis? because there are a lot SSA & EAA pilots who have been around a long time.


If it did i imagine it would be branched/a bunch of 'Y's...

Going Nowhere
29th Apr 2013, 05:56
Out of interest, where would 30 years get you in Mainline?

maggot
29th Apr 2013, 06:07
380 capt, depending on what happens with the 744 phase out.

..

Edit: on the face of it but based on how the qf LH/SH integration happens, it wouldnt necessarily be straight up like that.

maggot
29th Apr 2013, 06:13
And you have to remember that qf dont allow 'vertical promotion' so you'd need tp take into account a policy such as that may apply regarding any large steps.

On that note, i have heard that the much maligned 'no vert promotion' policy may be on its last legs.... :}

Tankengine
29th Apr 2013, 07:07
Forgetting the vertical promotion issue for a moment, command slots in mainline also have min requirements of mainline flying.:hmm:
If any 30 year Dash pilots think they could go straight to a 380 command they really are dreaming (as some were back in 1992!):ugh:
They could get an F/O slot and in a couple of years a command.
Group seniority would be an overall good thing for pilots but the company only sees possible cross training costs.:rolleyes:

Holding at
29th Apr 2013, 07:20
QLink can't crew the aircraft they currently have let alone a new type. Word is a direct entry captain will be joining the cairns base.

If, and that is a very big if, jets did come, they would be additional to the current fleet not replacements. The said jets would be used to replace the 737-400s and operate to regional ports such as alice, isa and mackay. As such, how do they expect to crew them.

Do QF have minimum upgrade requirements?

Cost Index
29th Apr 2013, 07:25
Seniority should be eliminated equally everywhere in all airlines worldwide, it's the bane of the pilots existence and causes so much unnecessary grief the positives it may bring are out weighed by the negatives. There may be some professions left that use it (although I can't think of any off-hand) but I believe it's use is outdated and a hindrance to our collective cause whether we like to recognise and accept it or not.

Eliminating it is unlikely happen for the time being unfortunately. Call me a free market radical.:hmm:

Going Nowhere
29th Apr 2013, 08:20
I doubt anyone high up in QLink has any desire to head to mainline.

Like I said, the question was out of interest only! :ok:

bubble.head
29th Apr 2013, 08:48
I doubt anyone in QLink has any desire to head to mainline.

Statement is now correct. :ok:

SOPS
29th Apr 2013, 09:02
After almost 35 years in this industry, I am still learning new terms. What is vertical promotion please?

IsDon
29th Apr 2013, 09:58
After almost 35 years in this industry, I am still learning new terms. What is vertical promotion please?


Promotion on type SOPS. eg. 744 S/O to 744 F/O to 744 Capt.

The idea of stopping vertical promotion was to make guys take promotion onto a lower aircraft type eg. 744 S/O to 767 F/O to 744 F/O or forever remain in their current rank. The sad reality is that PROMOTION to a lower rated aircraft may actually result in a pay CUT. A senior A380 S/O actually earns more than a junior B767 F/O even though they're on the same award. It's a system that rewards mediocrity.

Tankengine
29th Apr 2013, 11:05
Cost Index,
Said like someone with no seniority in the airline they wish to retire at!:rolleyes:

maggot
29th Apr 2013, 12:07
The idea of stopping vertical promotion was to make guys take promotion onto a lower aircraft type eg. 744 S/O to 767 F/O to 744 F/O or forever remain in their current rank. The sad reality is that PROMOTION to a lower rated aircraft may actually result in a pay CUT. A senior A380 S/O actually earns more than a junior B767 F/O even though they're on the same award

why stop with that statement, it goes further than that! I've a mate who is a very senior s/o on the 80 and he says it directly compares to some (dead junior) 80 f/o's :hmm: seems a bit rich to me but he's swears it. nuthin but LAX and DXB now.

SOPS
29th Apr 2013, 12:24
Thanks for the expanation IsDon:ok:

C441
29th Apr 2013, 23:54
As most would be aware the hourly rate for 380 S/O's is less than an F/O on any other fleet however (at least until the introduction of DXB) the 380 S/O's are doing the maximum 175 hours per Bid Period -how the hours are calculated is irrelevant - compared to 160 hours or less for most other ranks and fleets. That's virtually a 10% premium right there.

In addition to that, almost every time they jump on the jet they are there for 15 hours, thus accumulating another 4 hours+ in additional hourly pay (aka: overtime). With 4 or 5 trips per bid period that's a further 40-50 hours or more, or at least another 20-25% on top of base pay.

Most F/O's on any other fleet would be lucky to accumulate 10 or 15 hours overtime hence the apparent pay disparity. With the introduction of DXB, 380 F/O's who would get some o/time SIN-LHR-SIN, now get a fair bit more but most are only doing 2 trips to LHR per bid period after assigned leave rears its ugly head.

Despite that, my impression is that most S/O's on the 380 would accept the take-home pay cut for a window seat.

.......now back to Qlink's future........

Don Diego
30th Apr 2013, 01:54
Cost index, seniority keeps the brown nosers, bullsh?t artists, spivs and family members on the same playing field as the rest. The two sheltered workshops that I have had the misfortune to be associated with that were open slather were a blight on the industry. Seniority may not be perfect but it is way better than nothing.:eek:

Keg
30th Apr 2013, 04:39
To completely mangle the great Churchill's words relating to democracy, the seniority system is the worst system ever for promotion- except for every other system. :ok:

Tidbinbilla
30th Apr 2013, 04:47
And..... Let's get back on topic - that being Qantaslink.

DeafStar
30th Apr 2013, 13:56
Sources indicate 2014 jet introduction. Quite a few EBA's concenrned will be signed off by then. Massive capital injection into QLink at the expense of the legacy pay scales that mainline has. Sources also indicate (strongly) that the GOL will never ever see the light of day so that the legacy pay cant be used in Qlink on the new Jet equipment. Expect recruiting to seriously ramp up over the next 12 months to support the change.

You heard it here first.

Seriously
30th Apr 2013, 15:04
I'm willing to bet a 100k that in 5 years that qlink will be operating 717s and dash 8s with "jet" like speed. End of story. You guys ain't flying jets unless u join Jetstar, Virgin, Alliance or perhaps Cobham. Wouldn't that be ironic...:E

goodonyamate
30th Apr 2013, 22:11
Sources also indicate (strongly) that the GOL will never ever see the light of day so that the legacy pay cant be used in Qlink on the new Jet equipment.

Do you even know how the GOL works??????:cool:

And do you think that if Qlink do get jets, the company wont start calling your current Qlink pay 'legacy', so they can try and get a better deal?

pull-up-terrain
30th Apr 2013, 22:54
But what new routes could these new jets be used on. IF it happens I can only see it being a fleet replacement for 717's f100's, q400's. I wouldn't be calling it an expansion where they will be employing heaps of people to crew them.

rockapetransport
1st May 2013, 10:49
Network Aviation... Qlinks Jetstar. Its where the Qlink Jet growth will go...

Normasars
1st May 2013, 10:56
Rockape,

That's exactly wot I was alluding to in Post 4 on page 1. Maybe I should have spelt it out for the mentally challenged :ugh:

Engineer_aus
4th May 2013, 09:11
I have heard that QF is going to be taking over the 717 ops from Cobham. Another 5 717's on the way too.

bubble.head
4th May 2013, 10:06
I doubt Sunstate or Eastern will be taking over the cobham operation anytime soon when they have a crewing shortage. This is when the jet operators recruitment have slowed down in the past 12 months.

QFLINK717
5th May 2013, 00:31
I doubt Sunstate or Eastern will be taking over the cobham operation anytime soon when they have a crewing shortage. This is when the jet operators recruitment have slowed down in the past 12 months


If Qantas were ever to take over the Boeing 717 operation, doubt it would not have anything to do with Sunstate or Eastern crews. In house Qantas still operates the Boeing 717 operation as Airlink. The Airlink-Sunstate-Eastern AOCs I figure will always remain separate.

As when Qantas took over Impulse Airlines the Tech Crews, Cabin Crews and B717 Engineers went with the aircraft. Qantas have a cost effective set up with National Jet (Cobham) to run the Qantaslink Jet ops. Guess we will know soon enough.

maverick22
7th May 2013, 11:44
Jets are Definately on the way. Currently recruiting a "Training and Policy Development Specialist" with jet time greater than 50t and International experience. Probably looking for someone to incorporate A319 procedures into the FCOM:hmm:

maverick22
7th May 2013, 23:12
My thoughts exactly :cool:

noclue
8th May 2013, 00:34
What, like one of their mates?? No way. :E

unseen
8th May 2013, 01:18
Currently recruiting a "Training and Policy Development Specialist" with jet time greater than 50t and International experience.

Is this advertised anywhere?

Thanks

Poto
8th May 2013, 03:37
I have heard from an extremely reliable source very high up in management that Qantaslink will be used to launch Virgin Galactic!

Fuel-Off
8th May 2013, 06:14
Unseen, it's advertised internally at this stage. However the vacancy was rather tucked away. The troops haven't been jumping around with glee for what could be read into this (they probably didn't even notice the vacancy at all to be honest!)

Interesting times ahead...

Fuel-Off :ok:

bddbism
8th May 2013, 07:45
A319 75T
CS100 53T

Or.......old mate is back from the desert. Welcome home buddy.

pcpilot2
8th May 2013, 12:24
If it happens Qlink will be stapled to the bottom of Mainlines.
Why would they bring the groups together anyway? It'll only give the combined groups more leverage.Not going to happen.....

Josh Cox
8th May 2013, 21:16
If it happens Qlink will be stapled to the bottom of Mainlines.
Why would they bring the groups together anyway? It'll only give the combined groups more leverage.Not going to happen.....

pcpilot, there are two separate issues there: one is the seniority list and the other is an industrial issue (EBA).

Having combined seniority, IMHO, benefits both the company and the pilot group ( if done fairly ).

Having everyone on the same EBA is, IMHO, not in the company's best interests, if PIA was taken during an EBA negotiation, the whole pilot workforce would be involved. If there are multiple EBA's this can not / is unlikely to happen.

Captain Biggles84
8th May 2013, 23:25
What ever happens whether it be new jets at Qlink, Network or J* you can be sure it will all be at the expense of mainline in a move to drive down cost and and wages. Whilst there is a fair argument about sustainability of mainline in this day and age. Bidding fellow Groups against each other for the work and giving the bulk of it to who ever has the lower cost base is only going to ensure our industry heads the same direction as the US aviation industry.. Food stamps will be next. Surely it can be done without internal competition.

If people think that is funny they obviously are totally oblivious to this industry.

Oktas8
9th May 2013, 00:02
I didn't know that anyone was making a fair argument that mainline T&C are sustainable. Desirable, traditional, not being negotiated away, yes. But which brave economist is mounting an argument for "sustainable"?

But I share concerns about Q Group's goal of driving down costs by farming out the work to subsidiaries. Group managers will get around Australian workplace laws one way or another, and it won't be their own T&C's being reduced.

atlas12
9th May 2013, 04:28
This thread is hilarious, I love pprune!

Flying Meat Cleaver
10th May 2013, 00:53
Common sense would dictate either keeping the status quo - ie. Cobham operating the Qlink single isle jet, or the acquisition of the staff already operating the Airlink contract.

Its the worst kept secret that the 5 new B717s will be included in the expanded Airlink contract (operated by Cobham). The only question is where will they be based???

C-Series or A319, as has previously been stated, the B717s are being upgraded. They'll be around for a few years yet. So my bet is on the lighter, more efficient C-Series as their eventual replacement.

FMC.

The Green Goblin
10th May 2013, 01:05
My bet is A318s converted from excess capacity on the order books ;)

With Network crewing them on F100 conditions :}

positivegee
11th May 2013, 14:52
Poto I have heard from an extremely reliable source very high up in management that Qantaslink will be used to launch Virgin Galactic!

Silly me, I thought Qlinks over exuberant C&T was to get the crews ready for the space shuttle program...duh...

I suppose, since that program's been canned, the Virgin Galactic program makes most sense...unless NASA is looking for it's MARS mission crews...

Hold on to your helmets/DC's/BOSE's/TELEX's...all will soon be revealed via FOSO/FOAB/Geneva MSG/Facebook/Crow..IPAD's...just make sure your astronaut medical is up to date!

longjohnsilver
12th May 2013, 07:27
I dont think qlink will ever get jets if the events of the last couple of weeks are anything to go by...heavy landing at moranbah last week heard it was 3.6 G's

atlas12
12th May 2013, 10:30
Yeah but didn't national jet have a very heavy landing on the 717 years ago? Not that I think Qlink will ever get jets anyway :cool:

Capt Claret
12th May 2013, 10:38
Not that I think Qlink will ever get jets anyway :cool:

Is that right? What about the 13 B717 they've already got? Not to mention the next five coming from Nov 2013! :cool::cool:

atlas12
12th May 2013, 11:02
Haha I think we're all talking about Sunstate/Eastern here :cool:

RENURPP
12th May 2013, 21:32
I thought we were talking about Qlink!

Capt Claret
12th May 2013, 22:13
Of course. How could one not have known that the references to QLINK excluded the QLINK jets with QantasLink painted on the fuse! :ugh:

Fuel-Off
12th May 2013, 22:31
Ok, I think from the original post #1, the subject of QLink is referred to as SSA/EAA rather than Cobham or Network (and management wonder why we have an identity crisis!). :mad:

Evidenced by the mention of our new management (seconded from JQ) CP and CAR217 manager, who are the regulatory postholders for SSA/EAA and (as far as I'm aware) NO regulatory oversight with NJS or Network; the ex-EK drivers coming back home and working for SSA/EAA (any come home for NJS or Network? - I know you can't suggest anything solely on this fact, was just a reference to the original post); the new 'Training and Policy Development Specialist' requiring the experience that was aforementioned in the subsequent vacancy notice (don't think that position was advertised with NJS or Network either) and yes, well aware it could be just jobs for mates, but you can't overlook that this was only advertised in SSA/EAA circles.

Happy to be correct by Capt Claret et al...just be gentle :}

Fuel-Off :ok:

Capn Bloggs
13th May 2013, 02:01
Claret, I think you're confusing Qantas Airlink (Cobham) with Qantaslink (Sunnies/Eastern). ;)

travelator
13th May 2013, 02:01
any come home for NJS or Network?

Yes. Although this probably just means that NJS or Network are going to get A380s:rolleyes:

Capt Claret
13th May 2013, 03:49
You think so do ya Bloggs?

I don't.

When I hear of or read QantasLink, I think of the entity, as described thus, on the Qantas website:QantasLink is a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas Airways and Australia's largest regional airline. It operates around 2,000 flights each week to nearly 50 metropolitan and regional destinations across Australia. QantasLink is comprised of three different regional airlines - Airlink, Eastern Australia Airlines and Sunstate Airlines. :p

Qantas definition of QantasLink (http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/partners/airline/qantaslink) and they should know 'cause it's their baby!

RENURPP
13th May 2013, 03:52
When did Network become part of Qlink?

If there is an identity crisis it's of your own making.

Network = Network

SuNstate, Eastern and Airlink (Natonal Jet Systems) = Qantaslink

Capn Bloggs
13th May 2013, 04:01
Yes yes yes Clarrie, I understand that, but in the context of this thread, Cobham and Sunnies/Eastern are different kettles of fish.

IsDon
13th May 2013, 05:34
Apparently an Embraer in Jetstar colours was last night spotted in Singapore parked at Bay C25?

More likely the Orange Cancer will be spreading to QLink rather than QLink getting jets.

gunna
13th May 2013, 06:03
IsDon

I Dont know if that was a wind up but you have probably beaten me to it.
I was going to say/am saying, he is probably going to set up a Jetstar NZ op with the Dash

Its the Pleats
13th May 2013, 06:12
Photos or it didn't happen!

Is that like that 74 in AVV painted in JQ colours?!?

newsensation
13th May 2013, 07:49
QantasLink is a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas Airways and Australia's largest regional airline. It operates around 2,000 flights each week to nearly 50 metropolitan and regional destinations across Australia. QantasLink is comprised of three different regional airlines - Airlink, Eastern Australia Airlines and Sunstate Airlines.
Remember Cobham contract to Airlink to supply crews etc to qantaslink services, they are not owned and can be cut out with the movement of a pen. If Qantas management can make a bigger buck by bringing all flying inhouse (read, by owned companies) they will! I dont think the Cobham to Airlink contract will end anytime soon but it wont get any bigger.

Fatguyinalittlecoat
13th May 2013, 09:01
Apparently an Embraer in Jetstar colours was last night spotted in Singapore parked at Bay C25?

Photos or it didn't happen!

A320 with Sharklets I bet. :D

Icarus2001
13th May 2013, 11:29
I dont think the Cobham to Airlink contract will end anytime soon but it wont get any bigger.
Any bigger before or after the additional aircraft for last years NEW Brisvegas base?

jarden
13th May 2013, 20:16
Would the extra 717s coming soon be deployed to CBR flying as a replacemnet for 734 retirements.

Captain Biggles84
13th May 2013, 23:38
As per newsensations post above.

The new 717s will be used to push the Qlink product on certain new routes/contractual flights and some mainline routes where they no longer operate entirely. I can see them furthering the route structures so when either Qlink or Network are in a position to start taking over said routes or contracts they will.

As per Newsensations post, the flying can be changed at the stroke of a pen. Why would they want to pay a contractor long term when they can have a subsidiary that they own in whole where they will make more of a return. But these kind of changes do not happen over night and im sure that strategy is their long term plan pending results in the short term.

Remember Qlink is just getting Jet Procedures set up in their manuals, Network is about to add RPT to their AOC and the announcement of a new jet type will not be far away. Ever so slowly the above operators will just take back some of the routes operated by Cobham 717's over time if the parameters are right. They have the contract til 2018 so it will be a slow process. Again due process has to take place and mark my words these changes will happen it will just depend on all of the above and some (economy local and world, commodity prices, qantas direction, and lets no forget these spineless managers trying to bid each other against everyone to have "low unit cost") The race to the bottom!! But Qantas are not going to throw away a low cost contractor (cobham) unless they have something set up to take its place in whole or in part.

All pilots in the QF Group need to stand together when these changes come along. If anyone has read the new Virgin agreement you will see their job security clause and career progression clause. Virgin are doing the best to protect their pilots from the industry and each other IMO. Something similar needs to happen in QF Group to weather this kind of shift if and when it occurs.

Icarus2001
14th May 2013, 05:31
Why would they want to pay a contractor long term when they can have a subsidiary that they own in whole where they will make more of a return.
For exactly the same reason airlines love to "outsource" to "contractors" roles such as ground handling, check in, cleaning, catering etc that they could easily DO in house.

Buttscratcher
14th May 2013, 06:07
Yup, then they can cut them away whenever it suits the bean-counters.

neville_nobody
14th May 2013, 07:20
Ever so slowly the above operators will just take back some of the routes operated by Cobham 717's over time if the parameters are right.

Not necessarily. This is all about creating as much competition for operation of your product as possible. It is the easiest way of keeping down costs and especially labour costs. If one company's pilots organise a good payrise the work just goes to next cheapest, the work dries up and the pilots have to now work for the operator who has the work available and so they surrender their long service leave/sick leave etc and have to start from scratch for the cheaper provider.

You create as many suppliers to your brand as possible who then compete amongst each other for your business.

It has already happened in the US and that's how guys ended up flying jets claiming food stamps.

However this system doesn't work when there is a shortage of labour.

If anyone has read the new Virgin agreement you will see their job security clause and career progression clause. Virgin are doing the best to protect their pilots from the industry and each other IMO

Not really they have 4 AOC's whom 3 will be branded as Virgin. Same idea really where they go with it is up to the management. Would not be hard to shuffle aircraft over to the Skywest AOC or for Tiger to takeover particular routes etc

noclue
15th May 2013, 07:17
-the 5 new 717's to get business class
-SYD/CBR, BNE/CBR, MEL/CBR later this year
-Cobham is in the process of recruiting additional crew to help meet requirements
-'we' are in discussions with your pilot representatives regarding potential opportunities for Eastern and Sunstate pilots.

mustangranch
15th May 2013, 07:26
So why then are qlink (read dash 8 operators) hiring a traing and policy development specialist with 50 tonne jet time in a car217 organisation?
Seems awfully strange they'd do that to develop their dash 8 fleet.

Capt Claret
15th May 2013, 07:30
I dont think the Cobham to Airlink contract will end anytime soon but it wont get any bigger.

How would you describe a 38.5% fleet expansion then? :}

ANCaptain
15th May 2013, 08:30
What do you call that Luv ?

:D:D:D

Well done Cobham !!

2020Balance
15th May 2013, 09:10
just saw the company email from the CIA

717 operation growing from 13 to 18 over the next year with east coast base expansion to come. Well done Cobham

Tuner 2
15th May 2013, 09:23
Apparently a PIA ballot is no barrier to getting business class seats put in the front of your jet :p
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/491992-cobham-special-mission-fwa.html

goodonyamate
15th May 2013, 09:24
What do you call that Luv ?



Well done Cobham !!


Another way fro QF to move flying to cheaper labour and therefore avoid paying mainline pilots!! The race to the bottom continues!!

I particularly enjoyed the FM blog sign off. QLink are getting jets, taking some more flying...'Cheers'

Far q QF:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Transition Layer
15th May 2013, 10:24
Well done Cobham!!!

Well done for what? Being some of the cheapest Jet pilots in Australia? :confused:

Capt Claret, you guys should be getting a 38.5% pay rise, not getting excited about 38.5% expansion! :=

Capt Basil Brush
15th May 2013, 12:09
I have been long gone from NJS, but I remember Sunnies pilots telling us around 1995 that they were getting the jets for the East Coast ports, and that we better start looking for new jobs.

It looks like some things never change! :O

Holding at
15th May 2013, 13:37
So why then are qlink (read dash 8 operators) hiring a traing and policy development specialist with 50 tonne jet time in a car217 organisation?
Seems awfully strange they'd do that to develop their dash 8 fleet.

I call that requirements written around the person they want in the positions resume.

Buttscratcher
15th May 2013, 13:53
50 ton? Those boys didn't come out of the sand-pit then

Flying Meat Cleaver
15th May 2013, 14:02
Well then... are we still only talking about Sunstate and Easterns!? :E

Seems your jets have been put on hold for a few years yet! But the good news is that you can go to Cobham to fly your QLink jet!

FMC

mustangranch
15th May 2013, 14:47
Fmc. I agree with you. Although those few years will be hard to bear knowing the guillotine is on order.

Capt Claret
15th May 2013, 20:39
Capt Claret, you guys should be getting a 38.5% pay rise, not getting excited about 38.5% expansion! :=

Hmmm Transition Layer, I'll have to think about that.

Think

Think

Think



Last time pilots went for such a pay rise was way back oh, in about '89. Some 1600 lost their jobs....

I think ....... I think I'll learn the lesson of history and respectfully decline your advice and just be happy with the 38.5% fleet expansion and the jobs security that it suggests. :cool:

muffman
15th May 2013, 20:51
Is anybody really surprised that the five additional 717s are going to Cobham? Of course they are going there. I don't know anybody at Eastern or Sunstate who thought they were going anywhere else. The interesting question for Eastern and Sunstate pilots is still what will happen next when the replacement for the 717 is found, which can't be too far off. Considering Cobham are now identified by the company as a specialist B717 operator, the only certainty is that nothing is certain!

travelator
15th May 2013, 21:00
I would guess that the end of this decade would see the replacement of the 717. With so many "group" companies and third party contractors in the mix, it will be anyones guess where they go. Time to start thinking about how much your grandmother is really worth and how big that pineapple can get is before it's too much:eek:

Wedcue
15th May 2013, 21:08
From a QF blog

"Qantas will shortly announce that, later this year, QantasLink will be introducing two-class B717s to their Cobham-operated jet fleet. The first of the smaller Business class equipped B717s will operate Sydney-Canberra, Brisbane-Canberra, and Melbourne-Canberra sectors."

Will the 717's suddenly become 787's.. ?

Mainline really is becoming an end of the line carrier in more ways than one.

2020Balance
15th May 2013, 21:12
Official word is new base's being announced in the next couple of weeks.

Engineers around the traps apparently have been told 2 more to Brisbane which makes 5 there in total. 1 to Canberra and the last 2 are going to Sydney. So Sydney and Canberra are going to be the 2 new bases operating alongside mainline. As for a replacement anytime soon for the 717's. The last one to go to Brisbane came off the production line in 2005 so is relatively new so wont be replaced anytime soon.

Hugh Jarse
15th May 2013, 21:25
Considering Cobham are now identified by the company as a specialist B717 operator, the only certainty is that nothing is certain!

Not quite sure what that means? I remember they used to be predominantly a 'specialist' 146 operator on the Airlink contract, which changed to the B717 in fairly quick time :O

Clarrie, when does the contract with Cobham expire? I doubt QF would be silly enough to breach the contract before that date (if ever).

Even if EAA/SA do get some jet flying, it would be interesting to see how they crew the turboprop operation, considering the existing difficulties they have getting suitable pilots. I doubt that QF would tolerate any reduction in capability with that part of the business in order to kick off a new jet operation.

The old jet carrot has been dangling since before 1994 (when I joined EAA). The closest it got was our Southern brethren, and look how that turned out in the end :ugh:

I wouldn't be going out and putting a deposit on a new Audi just yet. (Come to think of it, I wouldn't put a deposit on an Audi EVER) :}

Capt Claret
15th May 2013, 21:31
G'day Jarse,

I believe 2018 with a 2 year extension clause.

Given I've been hearing for close to 20 years that one shouldn't join NJS/Cobham because their days with QF are numbered, I wouldn't be too worried, AS LONG AS complacency doesn't set in. Also, given that the existing 717s are being refurbished to 125 seat capacity, I don't think they're heading off shore any time in the near future.

Hugh Jarse
15th May 2013, 21:46
Thanks Clarrie :) If I were at EAA/SA I wouldn't be holding my breath. That's not to say nothing will happen, but if anything does I wouldn't imagine it being of a large scale.....

AviatoR21
16th May 2013, 03:42
I've been also told senior check Capts at SSA are telling their pilots to leave if they want to fly a jet. That instills great confidence....

Transition Layer
16th May 2013, 03:58
Capt Claret,

The use of the 38.5% figure was more for effect than anything, as it's the number you used in your post. What I was trying to highlight was the pay disparity between yourselves and your competition on these new routes - i.e. the VA E-Jets.

Funnily enough, the figure is probably pretty close to that. What we've seen recently is QF management wanting to comparing our salaries to VA, and down the track you may well see VA management wanting to make comparisons to the Cobham 717 operation.

In the end no one wins and the race to the bottom carries on. I don't think anyone should be getting excited about that! :(

RENURPP
16th May 2013, 04:33
The use of the 38.5% figure was more for effect than anything, as it's the number you used in your post. What I was trying to highlight was the pay disparity between yourselves and your competition on these new routes - i.e. the VA E-Jets.Funnily enough, the figure is probably pretty close to that

E170 Captains are on $214,000 base? Maybe I will apply thats not too bad. :8

Having to pay $30K+ for the endorsement is a hassle though, maybe I won't

Transition Layer
16th May 2013, 04:58
So my figures are a little rubbery but my point remains the same. Why gloat about all this growth if you're doing it for less? :confused:

RENURPP
16th May 2013, 05:18
I'm not gloating, a few guys are happy they have job security for a little longer.


I don't know what an E170 Captain for Virgin gets, quite honestly I couldn't care less. If they're receiving more than me, good on them. I wish them well.

Fuel-Off
16th May 2013, 05:37
Ahh...no. No gloating from either SSA or EAA. The thread started with the ridiculous claim that we were going to get 787s. Then the discussion about the change of management alluding to possible equipment changes. I can't recall any SSA/EAA pilot gloat about NJS losing out - EVER. It there was, it certainly wasn't from me and certainly doesn't reflect the 99% of Dash drivers who wouldn't want to see ANY pilot out of work, let alone WISH for it. As to us working for anything 'just to get jets', I call bull:mad:. We have an agreed rate in each EBA which, compared to other operators of similar aircraft is market rate. So I totally reject your statement RENURPP.

Good to see the QF Group is finally upping the domestic product on some important govt routes. As to this 'opportunity' that the COO and CP for SSA/EAA in this latest news, lets just hope that an equal footing can be agreed on by all parties involved.

Rant over.

Fuel-Off :ok:

aviator's_anonymous
16th May 2013, 06:00
Let's not forget VA has recently aquired quite a few F100s from Skywest... what is to prevent them from also posting a few on the east coast.... then you will have VA pilots on F100... possibly competing on similar routes...and i'm sure their pay ain't nothing to gloat about either...

seconds
16th May 2013, 07:03
Salary comparison at this point in time as per current or recently voted in EBAs. Ignoring any extras and lifestyle considerations etc etc.

Virgin Embrarer
Capt 165
Fo 91-107

Skywest F100
Capt 141-158
Fo 91-103

Cobham 717
Capt 155
Fo 85-101

All seems in a similar ballpark. Government takes most of it anyway. :ugh:

goodonyamate
16th May 2013, 08:42
Good to see the QF Group is finally upping the domestic product on some important govt routes

admittedly there are some 400's running on those sectors, but seriously, you call the QF product on the 800 inferior to QLink 717????

Fuel-Off
16th May 2013, 08:56
Majority of the CBR runs are by the 734s (apart from PER-CBR) aren't they? I'd say anything would be better than J class on that!!

Fuel-Off :ok:

Transition Layer
16th May 2013, 09:59
Thanks for the rough pay scales seconds. Looks like I was misinformed about Cobham's pay, obviously the TWU has done some good things there.

Yet again, mainline pilots watch more and more flying disappear, this time to a third party contractor outside "The Group". And apparently engagement was up in the last survey? Hahaha :eek:

32megapixels
16th May 2013, 10:06
All I want to state is that Aviation in Australia as a whole is an absolute joke. We are all held ransom by our seniority systems and pay! If only we came to work for fun and didn't need to pay off the morgage.

I can understand why Denzel Washington was driven to flying upside down.

Opportunity is all we want and whereever you are at, aviation in this country with a population of 22 million isn't viable for a career here any more. So much for happy wife happy life. We are all frustrated, just leave it at work...or there will be no wife!

I just hope that for the qlink guys who work hard, all qlink guys....opportunity for them is provided! Qantas Fo's on the 737..mid 40's and with 5000 hours on type...I hear the frustration! It is managements pathetic excuses...(Dixon days) that now see the pain for you and the reason behind this move!

Continue to buy those lotto tickets my friends! Go to work for Fun!

Hugh Jarse
16th May 2013, 10:46
32Mp,Your career progression is at Virgin (or Jetstar, but preferably an FO). Can't speak for Jetstar, but you can't beat the lifestyle at Virgin (in comparison to EAA). You get a minimum of 3 or 4 days more off per roster, plus a bidding system which (I think) is generally free of cronyism (unlike the EAA system).


Plus you're not working for a bunch of narcissists ;) and THAT makes all the difference :E


Alternatively, can you wait until 2018 (if ever)?

32megapixels
16th May 2013, 11:16
HJ,

I believe we have net many years ago. It is SsA. Anyway, I wish I had been in your inner circle when you left as I would have been influenced in a positive way and probably not stuck flying this prop with false promises! Trust me, I am on the look for a new job, but what is left? Virgin has just put out a rubbish profit forecast via stock exchange today and with the possible expansion of tiger, your going to perhaps never see the left seat of a 737? I don't know, but unless you left for virgin in 2007, then you'll be waiting sometime. If I came to virgin now....12-15 years for left seat 737! F me!

clear to land
16th May 2013, 14:16
Works both ways 32MP-if I left my position as a TRI on the 777 to go to Sunnies I would be offered what? - thats right a RHS on a D-8 (assuming I could pass the selection :) )!. Thats one of the -many-problems with aviation. It's all about timing. Have a look at the 'Senior BA thread in R & N' for some interesting pro's and cons of seniority.

yowieII
16th May 2013, 15:42
And what career progression would that be Jarse? C'mon you know it's pretty much screwed where you are, anyone coming in now would be 10 yrs, minimum! Gone are the days of the Cheiftan driver being a 73 skipper within a year...

grrowler
16th May 2013, 20:42
As long as you don't have some b*ner about having to be a captain, at least for the 10 years you wait you'll get paid more, enjoy more quality days off, and not be hassled by management clowns.

I would say it's still worth it.:ok:

Going Nowhere
16th May 2013, 21:20
I think the point that gets most drivers in the 'Q group' wound up, is that more flying is being given to a non 'Q Group' company. :ugh:

If the flying was to be given to SSA/EAA then at least it's staying in-house...

Hugh Jarse
16th May 2013, 22:12
Gidday 32MP,

This industry is full of ups and downs. One's choice to move on is influenced by any number of factors.


I thoroughly enjoyed the flying aspect of my time there (pilots, cabin and ground crew, engineers etc). Come sim or line check time, I felt reasonably comfortable going into checks. I was quite satisfied with what I was doing in the job overall. Never really had a bad day at work, but that was primarily because of the calibre of work colleagues, and in spite of what the narcissists were doing to us.


I guess you could say I was in my comfort zone :E


The trigger for me to move on was a combination of successive deteriorations of our conditions via the EBA system, and 'management fatigue'. In other words, EAA (the company) and its conditions on offer no longer met my expectations as an employee. So you can see my reasons for moving on are slightly different to yours.


It's really easy to find reasons NOT to do something about your career. After nearly 15 years I could have just stayed there and cruised along, but the situation described in the previous paragraph was overwhelming........


I never expected to end up where I am now. I'd never even considered this place for a career move, mainly because of my age and the 'young' corporate image I perceived. It was only after several former workmates (now working here) hassled me to put an application in that this happened. Yes, I took a pay cut. Yes, the share price tanked while I was on ground school. Shit happens, but I took a longer term view of my prospects. I was mainly after a lifestyle change. The rest has been a bonus.



As for commands mentioned by some - I've been adversely affected by this new EBA, but I'm not stewing over it. As grrowler wrote, I don't have a stiffy over getting a command, and yes it's most likely moved back with the current climate (both industrial and economic). I'm not too worried about that, because I've just done a type change and need a fair bit more time on type anyway before I'd stick in a bid for a command. For me it's more lifestyle.


Yowie11, I take a different view to yours. I don't think it's screwed here at all. It's gonna take a while to find out just what's going on with our careers. It's early days yet :E


32MP, as I wrote, you can find reasons for not applying to a particular company. I know of two captains at EAA that were offered, and knocked back jobs here. Both claimed they couldn't afford the (initial) pay cut, and also had concerns about the company's viability. That may have been so in the short term, but they would now both be on considerably better remuneration AND lifestyle packages, had they made the move. They were in their comfort zones too.


If you're looking for a quick command, I can't think of any airline in Australia that can meet that expectation. You have to start somewhere.:O


Sorry 'bout the long post

bubble.head
16th May 2013, 22:27
Virgin Embrarer
Capt 165
Fo 91-107

Skywest F100
Capt 141-158
Fo 91-103

Cobham 717
Capt 155
Fo 85-101

Seconds,

Is the b717 pay scale from the latest EBA negotiation? It was my understanding that as a FO, you start off as a level 5 (1st year) and that's around the 65k mark (ref from the 2007-2012 EBA). It goes up considerably after a few years in the company.

But if those are the true figures, it's similar to the regional jet rate at EAA.

Flying Meat Cleaver
17th May 2013, 00:19
They are correct, as recently approved by FWA!

FMC.

Chocks Away
17th May 2013, 01:41
Yes Jarse, Amen... people don't leave a Company, they leave a management!

Chieftain to B737 in a year... quick commands & boners... let me just say many of those who did achieve this in the past where very lucky and have been shown to be undeserving (attitude-city) and well below par professionally. If you still want it, get to Asia but good luck! May I suggest a more rounded Aviation education instead of trying to jump levels...

"There's the lickers and there are the kickers!"

Sure, you want to chase this (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,24/)... be my guest but more importantly, work out where you want to be in life and follow that because sadly, this industry has been taken over by HR & Accountants and gone pear-shaped ever since. Family & friends are more important!

This QF Regional debate has been going on for decades and I dare say still will. It's just nice to see jobs and movement created.

seconds
17th May 2013, 01:57
Yep my figures are from latest Virgin and Conham EBA.

From the Sunnies EBA for jet:
Capt 141-145
Fo 91-94

RENURPP
17th May 2013, 02:45
Is the b717 pay scale from the latest EBA negotiation? It was my understanding that as a FO, you start off as a level 5 (1st year) and that's around the 65k mark (ref from the 2007-2012 EBA). It goes up considerably after a few years in the company.
As an F/O in 2007 you started around there, it's now 2013even prior to the last EBA the level 5 was somewhere around 18% above that. Still not brilliant but certainly not 65 nor do you pay 30+ for an endorsement.

HulaBula
17th May 2013, 03:09
Seconds, TL...

Thanks for the rough pay scales seconds. Looks like I was misinformed about Cobham's pay, obviously the TWU has done some good things there.

To be fair, the TWU and the AFAP. An unusual but quite succesful union 'partnership' to improve B717 conditions.

An outcome that two posters on this thread said was impossible, and put 'job security' at risk.

Well last Wednesday April 15th the new Cobham EBA came into effect and the minimum pay rise was 4.7%. Some First Officers will be receiving pay rises in the order of 11%.

The minimum backpay that will be dished out on June 15th pay run will be $10k, and some former "B scale" B717 FO will be getting around $22,000 in backpay alone on that date as we move back to 'A scale' rates for B717 FO.

Well done AFAP and TWU.:D

It might not be mainline rates, but unlike the last 'non union aligned' pilot negotiation team of 2007, no pilot went backwards.

In fact all pilots got pay rises of $7k to $22k per annum.

Just goes to show what happens when pilots get together, work with their union(s), ignore minor differences, and show some balls and determination.:ok:

It was a long process though. Not helped by the nay-sayers that bleated "we will all lose our jobs." :yuk:

Cobham EBA 2012. No pilot lost their job. Everybody got more money. Everybody got better conditions.

Within the week of it being rubber stamped by Fair Work Australia, the company announced 5x more airframes, two new bases (CBR and SYD) and a recruitment drive for 50+ crew.

Cobham B717 FO and DEC job ad The Australian (http://www.bfound.net/detail.aspx?jobId=116380&CoId=267&rq=1)

I'm sure that there will be still some that grumble about the unions at Cobham (AFAP and TWU). But they'll be banking the pay increases while they grumble!!:p

RENURPP
17th May 2013, 03:33
HulaBula

A little selective memory showing. :=

five dogs
17th May 2013, 04:22
I am sorry for the slight thread drift, however Hulabula has made a few comments that I cannot allow to go without correction.
The pre 2007 pilot group committee were the ones who allowed the pilot conditions to free fall. Those who were around would remember NH, GV and RW + others signing up to "Future horizons". They would remember the introduction of paying for endorsements and bonding. and who can forget the famous question that was put to the pilots "who supports FH in its entirety?" Of course there was no satisfactory answer to that. Only an idiot could support it, and even if you said NO it was read as still supporting some of it, s reasobale. This was all pre collective agreement days as these guys couldn't achieve that goal even with some meek support from the AFAP.
Along comes 2007 and the new committee rid themselves of the AFAP and with support from the majority of the pilot body engaged the TWU. Yes it was the 2007 pilot group committee that engaged the TWU achieved a collective agreement, saw the end of paying for endorsements, having to battle the previous pilot groups acceptance of Future Horizons.
There were many more wins, thats for another day.
Selective memory is an understatement, whoever you are Hulabula you were either not around in 2007 or you were asleep at the wheel.

Ted Nugent
17th May 2013, 05:37
-the 5 new 717's to get business class
-SYD/CBR, BNE/CBR, MEL/CBR later this year
-Cobham is in the process of recruiting additional crew to help meet requirements

What's the bet they don't have LINK on the side. :E

HulaBula
17th May 2013, 06:38
Well look what the cat dragged in again - five dogs, barking about unions just like a small dog behind a big fence. Barking at workplace reps in general, the AFAP and the TWU in particular, and naming anybody that stood up and did a better job than him as a (failed) rep.

Here's the bottom line. TWU and AFAP were united and Cobham pilots scored the trifecta. More money. More planes. More pilot jobs.

Funny how "RENURPP" and "fivedogs" work in tandem. Same opinions about unions, same grammar, same days off to post on prune - same IP address methinks!:}

Whatever. Rick Burton sends his love. Enjoy your backpay.

Tidbinbilla
17th May 2013, 06:43
Nope. One's in NSW, and one interstate. :E

That is all :ok:

RENURPP
17th May 2013, 06:44
Thankyou,

Nope. One's in NSW, and one interstate.

Wild accusations that can't be substantiated, I guess I know who it is now!

HulaBula
17th May 2013, 06:58
Worth a try!

Keep dreaming those dreams, RENURPP.

In the meantime, Cobham Facts:
Before TWU/AFAP = $0.
After TWU/AFAP = More money, more planes, more bases.

Don Diego
17th May 2013, 10:46
Five dogs , you are an idiot and a disgrace! Go lick your ba?ls elsewhere:ugh:

Keg
17th May 2013, 10:54
All this talk of straight pay rates is interesting but can someone break it down to me in terms of ASKs please? What's the cost of a Cobham crew per ASK compared to a mainline crew?

Capn Bloggs
17th May 2013, 11:27
What's the cost of a Cobham crew per ASK compared to a mainline crew?
The 717 burns less fuel per seat than an A330! :ok:

topgun0007
17th May 2013, 11:29
Keg,
It took you to bring me out of retirement, you are a lot smarter than that.
ASK's are an irrelevant number with the way yield management is undertaken these days. RPKs ASKs et al are no more useful than or accurate than the old days of saying 60 percent load factor is break even or anything greater than 80 percent and you are spilling.
With unbundling and add ons (read onboard sales) ASK's have little bearing on an airlines ability to generate revenue or at least profit.
IMHO

missing link
17th May 2013, 12:33
Qantas pay the bills, Cobham up the pay.....Qantas ultimately pay. It may just be they are happy to ride the higher cost for a while, but not for long.....totally against Qantas'
mode of operation. And you have to wonder why Qlink have changed almost the entire senior management for JQ management................those guys would not move to a Prop operation without good reason, and now they're looking for managers with 50 ton experience..................I fear Cobham may have won the fight but will definately lose the war. Too much happening in Qlink for a move to Jet ops not to be imminent.;)

Keg
17th May 2013, 12:52
topgun, at the end of the day, it comes down to how much a Qantas pilot costs to move x amount of seats compared to a pilot from VOZ, Tiger, Cobham, etc. It's the same formula that sees pilot costs on a QF 767 marginally lower than that for a 737 flying equivalent flying hours. IE we carry more people than they do for the same cost. If that's not relevant to the discussion I don't know what is.

F.Nose
17th May 2013, 13:44
admittedly there are some 400's running on those sectors, but seriously, you call the QF product on the 800 inferior to QLink 717????

Mainline 737-800 vs QLink 717 in business config with state of the art inflight entertainment and improved meal service (as promised)...not much in it. 717 maybe a tad quicker.

QLink babes vs mainline dragons....no contest....QLink 717 wins.:E

travelator
18th May 2013, 01:24
Qantas pay the bills, Cobham up the pay.....Qantas ultimately pay.
What cobham pay their pilots has zero effect on what QANTAS pay cobham. If cobham want to pay their pilots $1M pa then go ahead, it's not going to change how much QANTAS pay cobham.

I fear Cobham may have won the fight but will definately lose the war
Just about sums up the magic of QANTAS strategy. Let's all destroy each other to fly a jet. By all means missing link, slash your EBA jet rates and win the war.

If anybody wants to fly a jet then go and get a job with a company that already has jets. Never believe the empty promises and rumors.

alidad
18th May 2013, 07:47
Bloggs,

That MIGHT:= be the case, but a 717 will not carry 300 pax plus bags plus 11 tonne of freight over a 4500nm sector into a 50kt headwind.

Watchdog
18th May 2013, 08:04
...and an A330 won't carry 400 pax and 30t freight over 6000nm either.
The "steroid diesel 9" over those short, thin routes would be very competitive I'm guessing. 👍

clear to land
18th May 2013, 08:10
We regularly use the 77W on DXB-DOH-DXB (230nm), which is very similar to SYD-CBR-SYD, and we fill them-and offer a full service.

Capn Bloggs
18th May 2013, 08:36
Alidad, sorry, just throwing a curved ball into the discussion. Horses for courses, I agree. :O

Watchdog
18th May 2013, 09:05
Clear to land...so is THAT why there were such a large profit share paid last 2 years? 😂😂😂:E

(Sorry about the thread drift...I'll retreat to my kennel now) :ok:

ANCPER
18th May 2013, 09:34
clear to land,

I think you'll find that has nothing to do with the suitability of the 77W on a short sector like that, but more to do with that fact it's most probably cheaper than having to introduce a narrow body onto those short haul routes with the attendant costs. Something along those lines was given by a senior CX manager as to why they had never gone for a narrow body a few yrs back.

mustangranch
20th May 2013, 04:47
well back onto the topic.......
Qlink (read EAA/SSA) announced who is going to do the job of "training and development policy specialist" (read write manuals to operate jets).
Apparently he hails from the land of sand.

Capt Claret
20th May 2013, 05:08
QLink (read Cobham) have a DHTC who hails from the land of the sand too.

We'll raise your sand dune with Big Red (the biggest sand hill in the Simpson). :}

32megapixels
3rd Jun 2013, 10:31
I agree, tired. The new management went on and on at the roadshows that they were not just the "typical" Qantas management! Well, really! Stop making bs hit statements with no substance! Qlink management and Qantas management.... Anyone heard of red q! Opportunities for sunstate and eastern to fly 717s! I'm sick of this carrot dangling crap! I would say to the current management! Don't say anything unless you can back it! Credibility means a lot!

mja1968
10th Jun 2013, 03:30
Greetings all, I have just recently joined PPRuNe; this is an interesting thread. I fly 4 QANTAS Link Flights a week for business and recently my local airport that is serviced by Virgin, QL and recently Tiger had its ramp upgraded for parking larger aircraft. The first day after it was completed I noticed the new line marking for 787, I laughed and thought the council had stuffed up, yet months later, 787 parking facilities are still marked as such.

Virgin currently bring in 737's and EJ170 or 190's, QantasLink Q400's and Tiger A320's (I think thats the model). So who would be bringing in the 787? I know our council guys can at time makes some mighty blunders, but surley they didn't stuff that up? Food for thought?

Also, getting to know some of the staff over time, Link is to be dropped from the logo? I suppose as with all things aviation, you believe it when it happens. Just like the QL move to terminal 3, when it happens I'll believe it, although the latest Spirit magazine confirms the move in later 2013.

muffman
10th Jun 2013, 08:06
I suspect CFS is being prepared as an alternate for the 787 in the event that it is required for SYD or BNE. I'd be surprised if they start putting wide bodied jets in there regularly any time soon!

I think the dropping of the 'link' from QLink might have been a serious proposition at one stage but I have heard it was met with some regulatory issues and is no longer on the table.

The move to T3 in Sydney is definitely on though. Many steps have already been taken to make it so and I think it'll be a big win for the pax once the initial confusion settles.

Mstr Caution
10th Jun 2013, 08:09
Welcome to Rockhampton Airport (http://www.airport.rockhampton.qld.gov.au/common/Pages/Display/showarticle.aspx?id=13593)

Diversions, like the 747 into Rocky.

SIDS N STARS
10th Jun 2013, 11:34
Quite the contrary.

As a few thread contributers have alluded to previous, the boys and girls at SSA/EAA are getting B717's, even though Cobham have been publicly announced as the prefered operator. Which means the little boys and girls at SSA/EAA are a certainty to get the C-Series, even though QANTAS haven't mentioned any intention to buy or lease any.

So it goes without saying, anyone can clearly see that once Sh*tstar have enough 787's for the boys at the top, SSA/EAA will be the next in line for the aircraft to operate on those ideal routes like SY-CB, SY-MQ, SY-CH, etc.. all ex SY of course, because as we all know, if it's not happening in SY, then it just isn't happening.

On a serious note though, I did hear rumours if Cobham can't get enough applicants to meet their expansion needs, then positions will be offered to SSA/EAA Q400 crews. I'm wondering how that would work. As Cobham is not a QANTAS Group company, can a MOU be put in place? Would the Q400 crews have to resign from SSA/EAA and start at the bottom of Cobhams seniority list or would their DOJ @ SSA/EAA be intergrated into Cobhams seniority list?

Anyway not my problem, just interesting to see how it all pans out.

Capt Claret
10th Jun 2013, 12:23
Sids old son, some one's having a lend of you. Big time. :8

KABOY
10th Jun 2013, 13:06
So it goes without saying, anyone can clearly see that once Sh*tstar have enough 787's for the boys at the top, SSA/EAA will be the next in line for the aircraft to operate on those ideal routes like SY-CB, SY-MQ, SY-CH, etc.

The jets will stay at Cobham, the props will stay at SSA/EAA. Don't delude yourself, introducing glass jets into a turbo prop operation is too hard, history is working against you. The B717 is established, the C series will just try and replicate what the 717 has been established on. Give it another 10 years then there might be a need for a new technology aeroplane.

Time to move on.

SIDS N STARS
10th Jun 2013, 13:45
I was taking the piss Kaboy. The day SSA/EAA get jets (787s to Coffs Harbour??) will be the day I take both Helen Clarke and Julia Gillard over the steps of parliament house and do to them what they've done to us !!

Toruk Macto
10th Jun 2013, 13:51
What if QLink got jets and mainline wanted integration to feed their excess junior crew to . That would be funny .

The Green Goblin
10th Jun 2013, 23:11
It's fact that Q400 crew will be sent to Cobham to fly the 717.

Something is in the making.

Fuel-Off
11th Jun 2013, 00:25
Err...reference? Company/Union Letter? Tea Leaves? You can't make such broad declarations Green Goblin without coughing up some evidence. :ugh:

Fuel-Off :ok:

The Green Goblin
11th Jun 2013, 00:48
It's in the pipeline.

You'll see something shortly :cool:

bubble.head
11th Jun 2013, 01:07
Don't delude yourself, introducing glass jets into a turbo prop operation is too hard, history is working against you.

Why is introducing a glass jet into a turbo prop operation hard? The Q400 is all glass, and has similar performance to a jet.

However I highly doubt SSA/EAA crew will fly the B717. We are having trouble crewing flights already and pilots are leaving to fly elsewhere.

Unless they a) pay us a lot more to stay on the prop or b) give us jets and jet pay, people will just continue to leave.

Qantas might have ordered the c series already and keeping it tight lipped for commercial benefits. Looking at their order books, there are a few undisclosed orders and press releases. There are hints here and there that matches the characteristic of Qantas as one of the undisclosed purchasers.

neville_nobody
11th Jun 2013, 01:27
The problem will be with CASA and the subsequent regulatory/paperwork/systems that ensues. Easier to just subby it out or get mainline to do it.
It can be done but its not the easiest option.

bazza stub
11th Jun 2013, 01:39
bubble.head, you are a classic! :D

Compylot
11th Jun 2013, 03:15
Well gentlemen, things could certainly be getting more interesting than anyone could of imagined.

I have it on good authority that a couple of very senior EAA C&T Captains, along with some others from flight ops were seen to be touring the Boeing Dreamliner production line last month.

I've heard from a friend of mine in the states also that there was a 787 tech course run not so long ago with a couple of aussie guys from same said organization.

Watch this space, very interesting times indeed :eek:

KABOY
11th Jun 2013, 03:17
Why is introducing a glass jet into a turbo prop operation hard? The Q400 is all glass, and has similar performance to a jet.


Yep 50t, 0.79 FL390. That Q400 just needs to lose the props and there will be no difference. That's why airlines worldwide are putting these guys straight into the left seat.

neville_nobody
11th Jun 2013, 03:45
I've heard from a friend of mine in the states also that there was a 787 tech course run not so long ago with a couple of aussie guys from same said organization.

Nice windup there. CASA will never let you have heavy jets on a AOC with a bunch of checkers with no jet experience, and no Boeing experience.

If that was to happen you would have import a bunch of check captains with heavy Boeing experience and a whole bunch of DE captains with Heavy Boeing jet experience.

Yes it could happen but none of the current crew will be flying it thats for sure.

787s will be on the mainline AOC, or Jetstar and they will then be advertising for DE Boeing experienced guys.

grrowler
11th Jun 2013, 04:42
and has similar performance to a jet.
bubble.head that sounds like the qlink ad to convince the public - "jet like speed" are you Mr N Kumar?

bddbism
11th Jun 2013, 06:36
All this speculation. The direction of Qantas is like a bumper car. The guys driving have no idea where they're going, but wherever it is, they're going at full speed. Then they hit something (the law/competition/etc), bounce off, and fly off in another direction at top speed. At the end of the ride they get off and say, "that was fun", and some poor schmuck has to come in and repair all the carnage.

And before Qlink gets the Dreamliner they should think about getting a bus-liner to and from the carpark. It's getting worse and worse. But that's another matter....

fl610
11th Jun 2013, 06:44
Nice windup there. CASA will never let you have heavy jets on a AOC with a bunch of checkers with no jet experience, and no Boeing experience.

Why not? CASA have done it before!

AviatoR21
11th Jun 2013, 06:57
How long are you guys going to speculate the same stuff over and over and over again....

Captain Gidday
11th Jun 2013, 15:33
Working for Qantas is like working for Jay Gatsby. Every weekend you get to watch another fabulous party. All these people not even Jay knows turn up on some flimsy excuse [what was the last one? New Perth menus, or something].

You don't get to party, of course, but you do get to spend all week cleaning the rubbish out of the pool.

Ah well, at least when they are writing the obituaries, they'll be able to say 'they had no clue how to run an airline - but they gave the BEST parties!'.

Compylot
12th Jun 2013, 01:36
Nice windup there. CASA will never let you have heavy jets on a AOC with a bunch of checkers with no jet experience, and no Boeing experience.

If that was to happen you would have import a bunch of check captains with heavy Boeing experience and a whole bunch of DE captains with Heavy Boeing jet experience.

Yes it could happen but none of the current crew will be flying it thats for sure.

787s will be on the mainline AOC, or Jetstar and they will then be advertising for DE Boeing experienced guys.

Hi Neville_nobody,

My source, who also happens to be a very senior C&T Captain with heavy turboprop experience (he has substantial Tu-95 time) has told me that at least one of the fellows on said course does actually have Boeing heavy widebody experience.

Not only that but he also has Airbus heavy widebody and ultra long haul experience with a very large overseas middle east carrier and has only just recently returned to Australia for the lifestyle (after failing to get an interview with Tiger).

So you could say that this guy is a Senior management heavy turboprop (with glass cockpit and near jet like speeds) Check and Training Captain with ultra long haul heavy Boeing and Airbus widebody experience.

I think that such a gentleman would more than meet the requirements of CASA for such a proposed operation and one can only wonder what he would be doing on a Dreamliner tech course.

Interesting times, watch this space!

Just my two cents worth :ok:

Capn Bloggs
12th Jun 2013, 01:59
Interesting times, watch this space!
What, the 4 walls of the loony bin you are in? BTW, where's my neck rub?

Mach E Avelli
12th Jun 2013, 04:07
Whether or not QLink will ever operate jets is a commercial decision that I am sure the honchos at QF will make without our advice or opinions.

Whether pilots could transition direct from the Q400 to LHS jet is a no-brainer. ANYONE who is a competent pilot on a turbo-prop can do it, and not take very long to do it, either. Even from older generation analogue turbo-prop to glass jet is do-able for anyone of normal intelligence and ability.

As for CASA: Where, in their old or proposed new rules, does it say an ATPL must have prior jet-experience to fly a jet? Plenty of pilots have gone from turbo-prop to jet commands, having done just the minimum required line training - and lived to tell the tale.

IF it were to happen, it would be the insurers who would insist on a core of type-experienced check and training people to kick it off. Unless the incumbent Chief Pilot had appropriate jet time, CASA would probably insist on a type-experienced 'Fleet Captain' in the interim and would of course have to approve the checkies. So CASA could make it hard for a few, but not really for QF in the grand scheme of things. Other than that, CASA would be on thin ice if they tried to dictate that all Captains had to have prior jet time over and above the ICUS requirements in the regulations.

IF the pilots union had any teeth it would allow a very limited number of direct-entry checkies in, perhaps on fixed-term contracts, then see them off with a nice thank-you party after a couple of years.

Sadly - if history is anything to go by - should it happen, pilots will fall over themselves to accept whatever terms are on offer.

Toruk Macto
12th Jun 2013, 04:27
If they could recruit experienced guys into RHS it would help . Qantas mainline would be logical place to source this experience but hard to see them happy to sit in RHS with a younger Qlink cpt . Plenty of pilots would consider coming back from O/S , they have nothing to prove and bags of cash so pressure off , just enjoy the A/C and Aussie lifestyle .

fl610
12th Jun 2013, 04:29
Yes, no idea how I managed to transition from a small turboprop (5T) to the LHS of a large corporate jet. (45T) Perhaps it was the training? Just how do those bograts like Bloggs (sorry former bograt) manage to go from pimpley faced kids to fighter pilots in Mirages (showing my age)! and FA-18's etc?

Angle of Attack
12th Jun 2013, 10:56
Cessna 152 is still harder than Boeing Jets because they are such a light bugger, forget the speed its same shit different plane, take your hands of it! Cant believe children of the magenta crap on like this....

Buttscratcher
12th Jun 2013, 11:02
Sure, Impuse did it, AOC for HC RPT, crews trained, deal done
Many others I could mention too, but the point here is why would QANTAS want to do it, when their current trend seems to be one of dividing the company's activitys into small disposable packages

neville_nobody
12th Jun 2013, 11:44
Well Skywest/Tiger/Network/Voz/Virgin all required people with time on type. Skywest to the point where they imported labour. So I very much highly doubt Easterns will be given some special exemption. And it isnt just one guy either you will need experience in the checking ranks and then a percentage of your captains will need to be experienced on type.
But who knows maybe QF group have some special deal where they can do whatever they like.

Going Nowhere
12th Jun 2013, 11:54
Or NM could just call more of his mates. Problem solved... :E

BPA
12th Jun 2013, 12:27
Impulse (Air Crews Control to be correct) employed external pilots with jet time as Captains when the 717's arrived. Only a select few of the 1900 pilots were given commands on the 717 at start up.

R.Cruizo
12th Jun 2013, 14:03
And after 10 pages of standard pprune crap & speculation in this thread, I bet in 3 years time nothing will have changed at all.

Time for some to take a cold shower.

Buttscratcher
12th Jun 2013, 14:37
...... Anyway it ain't gonna happen
That company is set up to fly turboprops to turboprop destinations
If AJ wants jets to fly somewhere, he'll get his other 4 or 5 companies to do it.... That's why he set it up like that

Toruk Macto
12th Jun 2013, 15:36
It would make no sense for Qantas to do it , so no chance !

Capt Claret
12th Jun 2013, 15:50
Time for some to take a cold shower.

You forgot the Bex & a good lie down! :}

The The
12th Jun 2013, 21:37
It would make no sense for Qantas to do it , so no chance !

If it made no sense, they would do it. Remember the quality of the management you are dealing with here. Financial and common sense are not part of the big picture.

Keg
13th Jun 2013, 00:31
Just how do those bograts like Bloggs (sorry former bograt) manage to go from pimpley faced kids to fighter pilots in Mirages (showing my age)! and FA-18's etc?


I hope you're not comparing the RAAF training and development system to the airlines. The time, effort and energy put into the training and ongoing development of a boggie pilot of any type in the RAAF so far exceeds the way the airlines 'train' that the only commonality is aeroplanes and the use of the word 'training'.

(Note: I've no first hand experience of the RAAF training system but I do have some knowledge of it. I do have first hand experience of airline training systems from cadet, to initial type rating and then promotional). :ok:

Fuel-Off
13th Jun 2013, 01:05
We're just running around in circles here. Mods, I think this thread has run its course. :hmm:

Fuel-Off :ok:

fl610
13th Jun 2013, 01:23
Keg I am referring to the way that airlines used to train people and the way that good corporate flight departments still do.

Not the pay for training, throw them online, let the line captains deal with it kind of approach that we see in a lot of airlines these days.

Keg
13th Jun 2013, 03:07
Agreed. Chalk and cheese. Of course, one method takes, time, effort, energy and therefore money. The modern way is devoid of all of those things.

Hugh Jarse
13th Jun 2013, 09:12
The way I see it, all the new management positions for "jet pilots" was purely a matter of cronyism - creating a PD that only their mates (wanting to come back from overseas) could meet - excluding the existing staff from qualifying, because they "did not have the qualifications to fit the PD".

It goes on all the time in airlines, and not just the missing link.

I can't believe all you guys getting hardons over jets. When I joined Eastern in 1994 there were rumours of it happening. Almost 20 years later, still nothing had happened because COBHAM is the Qantaslink jet operator. (Yes, Southern had 146's for a little while).

Best get over it and fight the good fight in your next EBA without the distractions of the Furphy that is jets. They're only doing this to soften you up.

fl610
13th Jun 2013, 21:11
Agreed. Chalk and cheese. Of course, one method takes, time, effort, energy and therefore money. The modern way is devoid of all of those things.

Education is slow, expensive and works.

Legislation is quick, cheap and doesn't work.

Clearly, legislation is the winner! :ugh::{

Capt Claret
14th Jun 2013, 03:20
I think QLink's got a great future.

If the question's really about jets for Sunnies & Eastern, in the foreseeable future at least I reckon it'll require Cobham to buy them off QF, or QF to buy Airline Services from Cobham, integrate the three pilot groups, then there'll be a clear pathway from turboprop to jet.

Compylot
14th Jun 2013, 04:03
Well gentlemen as I retire myself to the reading room, comfortable in my tweed slippers having just poured some of the finest Remy Martin into a balloon snifter at my side, I stare out at the garden and contemplate the enlightening discussion that has been had here by the pprune intelligentsia.

Let us now reflect on the main points of said discussion.

1. Will Qantaslink obtain jet powered aircraft in the future and if so, which sort?

2. If said organization did obtain said aircraft, how would they handle the massive up skilling required to operate such complex machines?

3. One thing gentlemen I think that we can all agree on, is that you can't compare the cadetship programs of civilian airlines to that of the rigorous regime of testing and selection in the military :ok:

I think that about covers it, anyone else have more to add?

Hugh Jarse
14th Jun 2013, 07:06
1. Will Qantaslink obtain jet powered aircraft in the future and if so, which sort?
They already have jets - B717.

Have another snifter of your Remy Martin mate :}:}

Capt Claret
14th Jun 2013, 07:44
They already have jets - B717.

Touché Hugh, touché! :ok::8

Buttscratcher
14th Jun 2013, 08:08
Jesus... That's 3 full laps around this circular argument

Yes, have jets via Cobham's crewing company
Yes, they are getting more
No, Eastern and Sunnys won't get them.
They have turboprops and will continue to specialise on that aspect
This is how the pigeon-hole companys of QANTAS are developing

Hugh Jarse
14th Jun 2013, 09:31
Hey Clarrie - my old man told me "you can't put brains in a statue". Evident by some of the people here having difficulty comprehending the obvious :ugh:

Buttscratcher: Nice, succinct and right to the point. Well done, that man :ok:

TexanPilot
14th Jun 2013, 10:42
Jesus... That's 3 full laps around this circular argument

Yes, have jets via Cobham's crewing company
Yes, they are getting more
No, Eastern and Sunnys won't get them.
They have turboprops and will continue to specialise on that aspect
This is how the pigeon-hole companys of QANTAS are developing

Does anyone seriously believe that the Link will get 787's? There's a better chance of Dash-8's operating SY-Bali.

32megapixels
14th Jun 2013, 10:59
I thought we already had the Space Shuttle, but I guess since its retirement, we will have to put up with the 787's.

Sorry!



Onto serious things. It will be 3-4 years away. Until QantasLink reduces its rates of incidences which have been experienced over the last 12 months....qantas would not put a jet into the operation there for the risk of brand damage! Remember Darwin in the Cobham aircraft people! it should have been written off! Just like Qantas mainline Bangkok and a few other accidents!

Qlink was a messy thing and management without the skills to build it into a viable cashcow operation. The management team here now, will iron out and improve the operation.


It is above those at the management table at qlink that decide whether jets arrive or not. Until heavy landings, stick shakers and the rest stop, jets are not going to be arriving. 2018 is my bet! If you are young and smart.....get out!

Capt Claret
14th Jun 2013, 14:49
Watchit Mr Pixels, much more of that & Elvis and Harold Holt will leave their bunker under Ayers Rock and come to haunt you. :ugh:

Stalins ugly Brother
14th Jun 2013, 16:44
All a bit laughable really.

You can picture it, some pimple face **** walking in on day one of the new EBA saying " right guys, if you agree to bend over, take it in the rear then there is a slight possibility you may be able to fly the 787. Trade off is you give up the Vaseline"

Sound familiar?

Rant over. :ugh:

Toruk Macto
14th Jun 2013, 17:21
Hope mainline management have factored in a huge increase in their councelling budget while they slowly shift work to other groups . The post before illustrates the damage being done . This is just a rumor blogg with many wind ups , better to not log in .

maggot
14th Jun 2013, 19:14
How much do you think 'the difference' costs. Its all part of that... :ugh:

Icarus2001
15th Jun 2013, 02:47
Remember Darwin in the Cobham aircraft people! it should have been written off! Just like Qantas mainline Bangkok and a few other accidents!
Cobham do not own any B717 aircraft, they crew and maintain the ones that Qantas own.
Nowhere near write off value in either case.

neville_nobody
15th Jun 2013, 03:53
Nowhere near write off value in either case.

Shirley you can't be serious..................:rolleyes:

airdualbleedfault
15th Jun 2013, 05:24
Pretty sure they are leased by QF, not owned, big difference.

airdualbleedfault
15th Jun 2013, 05:35
All you lot talking Eastern, Sunstate, Cobham, ad infinitum.
There is a very strong rumour QF may be purchasing (or maybe already have) a jet operater called Network, and they could have as many as 12 jets within 2 years.
You heard it here first ;-)

FYSTI
15th Jun 2013, 06:16
Yes, we did "hear it here first", but not from you. Officially in Dec 2010, (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/436527-qantas-purchase-grow-wa-charter-operator.html) but the rumour had been around in Sep 2010 (http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/427292-qantas-buying-into-network.html),

ANCPER
15th Jun 2013, 07:36
Airdualbleedfault, it's not a big difference. The argument is that the a/c are not Cobham's, but QFs. Whether they are leased or owned by QF is irrelevant, they are controlled by QF.

NowThatsFunny
15th Jun 2013, 07:54
This, my friends, should have been the last post in this thread!!!!
:ok:

Jesus... That's 3 full laps around this circular argument
Yes, have jets via Cobham's crewing company
Yes, they are getting more
No, Eastern and Sunnys won't get them.
They have turboprops and will continue to specialise on that aspect
This is how the pigeon-hole companys of QANTAS are developing

But no, you guys just keep dreaming and rambling on, and keep disproving the general public's opinion that pilots are quite intelligent.:ugh:


NowThatsFunny

airdualbleedfault
16th Jun 2013, 10:58
My apologies ANCPER, you are quite right, there is little difference between trying to sell an aircraft and just handing it back at the end of the lease (or earlier depending on the lease condition) , my bad.

NowThatsFunny
17th Jun 2013, 07:15
.....:eek:...... :zzz:

In the Soup
6th Jul 2013, 03:14
For all you knobs and strokers out there who think qantaslink are getting jets, feast your little jet-dreary eyes on this little number from the union;

Jet Opportunities

Finally, there have been a number of rumours regarding jet equipment. We do not usually respond to rumours however there comes a point at which we feel compelled to respond. To date there have been no discussions with the Company regarding the Eastern-Sunstate pilot groups having the opportunity to operate any new jet equipment. Both pilot councils have officially expressed a willingness to discuss any possibilities or opportunities and we await the Company's response.

Going Nowhere
6th Jul 2013, 03:57
Soup,

It's only the newbies who seem to care about the jets. The only things they care more about is why their command is taking more than 12 months and how many flighties think they're 'hawt' :rolleyes: :yuk:

A fair few of the older and mid seniority folk are more interested in LWOP so they can go and see if the grass is greener somewhere else!

Typhoon650
8th Jul 2013, 01:56
Qantas or a subsidiary operating 717's into CBR before the end of the year, from a high source in QF. Supposedly on commuter routes MEL/SYD when loads dictate.
I'll let you all join the dots as to where the 717's are coming from.

OneDotLow
8th Jul 2013, 02:33
Upgraded 717s to Centre on Canberra (http://australianaviation.com.au/2013/05/upgraded-717s-to-centre-on-canberra/)

That news has been out for a while typhoon. Cobham will be the operator.

Wedcue
8th Jul 2013, 09:06
How do I change the subject to: Network to get A3... (19's/20's)

My source is from a few new F100 guys I met out on the sauce over the weekend in Melb who were doing their conversion from the Braz to Jet, they were told to not buy any green bananas..

Toruk Macto
9th Jul 2013, 14:50
50 each way on eastern , sunstate to operate jets . Always a sucker for the long shots .

mince
10th Jul 2013, 05:25
Reliable source informs me of 2 new starters at QLink, both with lots of PA31 experience. Plain white chieftain seen in a hangar in BNE with a can of red paint on the ground near it. Coincidence???? I think not.....
Watch this space QLink fans :D

chimbu warrior
11th Jul 2013, 08:10
And it looks like another possible new competitor in NSW (in the sense that they are trying to deprive QF of traffic that travels DBO-SYD-MEL)...........

Connect Jet - Home (http://connectjet.com.au/)

ASY68
23rd Jul 2013, 10:26
Rumour is that as of tomorrow the "link" will be dropped... Just a bit of scuttlebutt around the ramp.

smiling monkey
23rd Jul 2013, 10:37
Rumour is that as of tomorrow the "link" will be dropped... Just a bit of scuttlebutt around the ramp.

So, what will become of their callsign then? Just "Q xxxx" ? Or "Qantas xxxx"?

On that note, do VARA use the same callsign as Virgin's "Velocity"? (I'm not flying in Aus at the moment so have not heard their calls)

skkm
23rd Jul 2013, 11:06
do VARA use the same callsign as Virgin's "Velocity"?

Yes, with an 'Alpha' suffix on the ATRs, like the Qlink -400s' 'Delta'.

bubble.head
23rd Jul 2013, 13:41
The latest in the crew room is that they have dropped aircraft number 31 due to crewing difficulty. :8

maverick22
24th Jul 2013, 09:28
Rumour is that as of tomorrow the "link" will be dropped... Just a bit of scuttlebutt around the ramp

Scuttlebutt indeed...

ASY68
24th Jul 2013, 09:38
VARA fokkers using rego still

TwoFiftyBelowTen
24th Jul 2013, 10:00
VA to drop the "A" suffix from ATR flight ident soon. Apparently they need to list the actual flight number and not compromise the number to accommodate the letter suffix.

The "D" suffix for Q400 is to highlight the significant performance difference to ATC over other common everyday garden-type Dash 8s

HappyBandit
24th Jul 2013, 12:30
Not that it does us any good mind you!...Especially coming into Brisbane at the moment! I no longer tell my flight attendants we have tailwinds on the way home as I know we will be told to slow down anyway.

sunnySA
24th Jul 2013, 14:09
VA to drop the "A" suffix from ATR flight ident soon.

Not so, "A" suffix to remain UFN.

PACIFIC BARON
28th Jul 2013, 15:45
What is the reason for the future training courses to go "TBA" at Qlink. Is it a backlog in the current courses and lack of Simulator time, or something else?

PB

Fuel-Off
29th Jul 2013, 01:58
Lack of simulator availability especially on the Q400. There's only one sim with about 350 or so pilots doing FOUR cyclics per year :mad:. The classic isn't as bad but now that the Q400 stable nears 30 airframes (to be finalised at 32 by mid next year?) it's becoming a little problematic. Coupled with (rather) frequent break downs of the blasted thing just compounds the issue.

I notice on the Joining QLink thread that newbies are saying the sky is falling - hardly the case. :ugh: Ground schools are numbering 10-16 new crew every six weeks. At the moment we've got a whole bunch of FOs sitting on training reserve for around 3-5 months on full salary doing nothing. Makes pretty bad business sense to continue to outlay that sort of expenditure (but then again the Group hasn't entirely been ingenious in that department either). So the training has been put on hiatus until this new glut has been cleared.

Management have also stated that they will be restructuring to a twice yearly sim system with the Q400 sims in Seattle and Toronto being utilised again to handle the back log until a more permanent solution has been found.

Fuel-Off :ok:

717tech
29th Jul 2013, 08:59
Would a second Q400 sim not help the issue? Is it cheaper to send their crews to other countries or have them on "training reserve"?

Fonz121
2nd Aug 2013, 05:21
Why are they advertising for direct entry commands?

QantasLink Recruitment: Attention (http://qantaslink.bfound.net/list.aspx?CoId=189&rq=1)

HappyBandit
2nd Aug 2013, 06:24
Fonz

Interesting....I don't recall the union mentioning anything about this in their latest correspondence. Didn't think we needed captains at the moment anyway, I'm certainly not working nearly as hard as the FO's! :E

NowThatsFunny
2nd Aug 2013, 07:24
I'm curious, why do they not have RNAV as a requirement?

HappyBandit
2nd Aug 2013, 07:37
Now that's funny

They do the RNAV endo in-house!

2020Balance
2nd Aug 2013, 12:23
Q400's getting dropped from Hobart. 717 to be based there doing Melbourne shuttle and possibly direct Adelaide.

2 more 717's after the next 5 with possibly 8 more after that if they can find them.

Going Nowhere
2nd Aug 2013, 22:55
Talk of PER base to close with Network and Cobham to take over the flying once Network get RPT AOC and more B717's arrive.

Bean counters apparently not impressed with the extremely low work rate of aircraft and crew. Crew only doing 25-30hrs a month doesn't wash with the new JQ-style of operation.

Bringing those 2 Q400's back to the east coast would support the rumour about a delayed delivery of aircraft #30 and 31.

bubble.head
3rd Aug 2013, 03:20
My understanding is that aircraft #30 will be an engineering spare when it arrives as there are a number of aircrafts due for heavy maintenance.