View Full Version : One of 30 Million

SMT Member
25th Apr 2013, 21:56

This picture was taken from Hubble, and combines pictures taken over several years. It shows a 1/30 million part of the skies, and yet it contains around 5500 galaxies.

While that's truly mindboggling, here's something of breathtaking beauty: 30 Dorados


25th Apr 2013, 22:34
Also known as the Tarantula Nebula

Tarantula Nebula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_Nebula)

Just reading the description of how that nebula has been studied over the last 250 years I am amazed at how people ever began to deduce facts about such distant objects, presumably all done by mathematical calculations before the advent of instruments such as the Hubble telescope.

Sometimes, on a good day, when I am up to my 5th or 6th clue solved on the Times crossword I start to think what a clever chap I am - then I read something like this and realise how stupid I am by comparison, not to mention, looking at the picture, how utterly insignificant I am.

Oh well :(

25th Apr 2013, 22:50
You should take one of my astronomy courses!
It is indeed fascinating stuff, and with very pretty pictures. The deductions are quite straightforward to explain once they've been made, though often hard to work out for the first time.

26th Apr 2013, 02:50
I've seen some dunny vinyl tiles with a pattern very similar to that first pic. Maybe we're just part of a dunny floor tile in the splash zone.

tu chan go
26th Apr 2013, 04:59
The first picture is called the Hubble Deep Field. They pointed the Hubble telescope at a section of sky that appeared empty and left it for a while. They were astonished with the results and it changed the thinking of how much there is out there.

There is another picture called the Hubble Deep Field South - a view in the southern hemisphere and the images are very similar in the number of unknown galaxies that showed up. It promoted the view that the universe is uniform over larger scales.

Fascinating stuff!!

Loose rivets
26th Apr 2013, 06:42
So why do 'they' think there is only 4.something % matter out there?

Go on, you don't know, do you?;)

blue up
26th Apr 2013, 07:56
The first one looks very like my new fake-Granite kitchen worktop, even down to the reflection of the ceiling lights. Sure it isn't someone at NASA having a larf?

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/foggythomas/hubble_zpsfd33abe3.jpg (http://s82.photobucket.com/user/foggythomas/media/hubble_zpsfd33abe3.jpg.html)

Excuse the chocky biscuit. I was trying to find a Milky Way


26th Apr 2013, 09:33
Spiral galaxies are everywhere. I remember perusing a big photographic cellulose slide with a magniftying glass at Siding Spring Observatory, NSW, Australia. The deeper you looked into the slide the more spiral galaxies you would find, and sometimes what appeared to be a solitary star turned out to be a globular cluster made up of about half a dozen spiral galaxies.

The fascinating thing about those photograpgic slides was that unlike the flat pictures above, these prints looked 'alive'.

26th Apr 2013, 09:44

Loose Rivets - based on what we observe about our solar system, and any rotating system on Earth, we expect the orbital velocity (the speed it goes round it's orbit) of a body to decrease with distance - curve A. Thus Jupiter goes round at a slower speed than the Earth. This was observed and described by Kepler (3rd law) and explained by Newton with his Universal Law of Gravitation (and later tweaked by Einstein). However, what we observe when studying distant galaxies is curve B - the orbital velocities not decreasing. One explanation for this is that there is more matter out there than we can see, or expect from our previous theories on star and galaxy formation. This is known as Dark Matter.
The second problem is that the Universe was recently discovered to be expanding at an increasing rate, whereas we would expect the rate to decrease after the big bang. It's a bit like discovering that the shrapnel from an exploding bomb is going faster passing 20,000 ft than it was passing 2,000 ft. Dark Energy has been postulated to explain this.
Thus, when we calculate the required proportions of Matter, Dark Matter and Dark Energy to explain what we see,matter comes out at about 5% of the total.

Is it all b#llocks? Just this month, a new instrument on the International Space Station has discovered more positrons (positive versions of the electron) with particular energies than would be expected by normal theories, but which fit with some dark matter theories.

26th Apr 2013, 09:49
I'm impressed Fox.

I expect you can finish The Times crossword every day too :*

26th Apr 2013, 09:53
was always a Telegraph crossword man myself - could never get the more obscure biblical stuff in the Times.;)

26th Apr 2013, 10:01
SMT Wow!!! :ok:

SMT Member
26th Apr 2013, 19:08
You should take one of my astronomy courses!

Would be only too pleased to do that. Please advise time, venue and costs other than beer ;)

Loose rivets
26th Apr 2013, 21:28
Nicely explained, Mr Fox.

What I should have said was more about the issue of recently finding so many galaxies in dark areas of the sky. If they came as a surprise, how did they arrive at the figure of ~5% observable matter prior to these observations? Or was that 5% based on Hubble's later findings?

The fascinating thing about those photograpgic slides was that unlike the flat pictures above, these prints looked 'alive'.

Yes, why is that? Even some of my home transparencies seem to give seemingly three-dimensional pictures?

27th Apr 2013, 04:27
The fascinating thing about those photograpgic slides was that unlike the flat pictures above, these prints looked 'alive'.

Yes, why is that? Even some of my home transparencies seem to give seemingly three-dimensional pictures?

One seems to recall the classic film and paper print emulsions for each primary color component are laid down on a separate emulsion layer, so they are (initially) transparent and still superimposed in a stack.When exposed and developed, the multi-layer condition still exists, to sufficient extent that the eye senses slightly different parallax view-angle for each layer and telegraphs same to Brain, which does what it can to ignore the info, but occasionally in a whimsical mood will grab the 3-d ball and run with it.

Probably folk with a leaning toward cross-eyedness or covert licentious amblyopia are more inclined or able to pick up the 3d components and translate them into depth info. Works for me.

27th Apr 2013, 06:12
Scale of the Universe (http://scaleofuniverse.com)

27th Apr 2013, 09:41
Fox3 the same curve B can also be held in Fourth Dimensional Physics as all
galaxies are retreating from us. Since Everywhere is the apparent Centre of
the Universe there are limits as to how fast they can traject within a given
3D area.

I'm not knocking the Dark Matter theory as it certainly tidies up a lot of the
equations, but I put more thinking into pure Einsteinian values which could
explain the same thing and maybe resolved differently.


4D Sphere. (http://www.foundalis.com/phy/4Dsphere.htm)

4th D explained. (http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/fourth.html)

Jim Loy physics on 4D. (http://www.jimloy.com/physics/4d.htm)

27th Apr 2013, 10:07
You would not believe how often, when a mathematical formula fails to meet the anticipated parameters exactly, an extra factor is added to even things up. One might call this "x" or "y" or "z" - or even "c" - but either way it's an adjustment.

So we invent "dark matter" which can't be seen, felt, heard and has no odour, to account for this or that, and then say "it must be real ! look, it accounts perfectly for this" (or even that or the other).

I draw your attention to the comment of the fictional scientist Alexandrov in Professor Hoyle's "The Black Cloud", page 159 in the Penguin paperback edition, regarding correlations obtained after experiments done as "bloody bad science".

(Hey ! Mrs OFSO had less housekeeping cash left over at the end of last month than I predicted. Hmmmm.....must have left something out...let's add a corecting factor, call it.... "x". That should fix April's prediction.)

27th Apr 2013, 10:13
I thought all calculations needed a fudge factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fudge_factor)?

27th Apr 2013, 11:25
SMT Member - I'm an astronomer. The first picture is why I still have this job, the second picture is why I have this job. Thank you for posting such wonderful images.

uffington sb
27th Apr 2013, 12:22

The image with all the galaxies you say is 1/30 millionth of the sky.
What would that be if you held out your arm, would it be your thumbnail or something smaller like a 2 mm circle drawn on said thumbnail?


27th Apr 2013, 15:03
The fascinating thing about those photograpgic slides was that unlike the flat pictures above, these prints looked 'alive'.

Not just the 3D effect, these black and white slides of galaxies looked organic, natural, dynamic, full of life, and not a lawyer in sight for billions of light years. :}

27th Apr 2013, 19:53
Do not overlook the fact that since the universe is either infinite or so approaching infinte as to be indistinguishable from infinite, and since in an infinite universe everything is possible, someone somewhere out there has already taken a similar photograph in the reverse direction - i.e., looking back at us: has posted it on THEIR version of JB, and at this very moment another version of OFSO is writing an identical message to this one.......

(although perhaps in bright green letters).

(although perhaps in bright green letters).

28th Apr 2013, 02:23
...since in an infinite universe everything is possible...

...or maybe a whole new Universe... of same.

28th Apr 2013, 02:45
I draw your attention to the comment of the fictional scientist Alexandrov
in Professor Hoyle's "The Black Cloud", page 159 in the Penguin paperback
edition, regarding correlations obtained after experiments done as "bloody
bad science".

Completely agree - especially in the area of that global warming crap. The
amount of "bloody bad science" is amazing. In fact I don't call it "science"
- nor even "pseudoscience" - I call it plain bullshit.

...Going back to the thread - historically Man has always tried to explain how
Nature works - it was obvious once to one and all the Sun goes around Earth.
Its not that Man was stupid - it was the best he could come up with with the
tools of the day. It wasn't until the development of the Scientific Method of
discovery after the Dark Ages that gave Man a system of separating the facts
from bullshit. It certainly aint perfect - but it gave us knowledge that can't be
found in its exact opposite institutions - Religion, Politics and other "truths"
by imposition of mere human authority.

Recall Galileo's experience when he showed bishops and priests his telescope
with which they directly observed moons orbiting Jupiter - and STILL Human
Authority exerted its crap despite direct contrary evidence they saw with their
own eyes. Science expanded rapidly when the catholic church was eventually
walled up in Rome - and allowed us to investigate and argue the possibilities
of Dark Matter and the Fourth physical dimension.

28th Apr 2013, 05:16
the best he could come up with with the tools of the day
I've wondered if the computer is a tool to let us see into somewhere else, like the telescope. Or glasses, then it would be seeing better.

28th Apr 2013, 14:35
Computer technology will probably last as long as books
have Probes....that is until one day taken over by some
other discovery that makes them obsolete. But what that
will be I haven't a clue.

Puters are great tools for the purposes you describe but
remember they're only as good as the data inputted - ie
garbage in...garbage out.

Erwin Schroedinger
28th Apr 2013, 15:08
...as Jet Blast proves.

28th Apr 2013, 15:20
The Catholic Church imprisoned (commuted to house arrest) Galileo, finding him guilty of being suspected of heresy, in 1633.

..and admitted their errors in....1992!

You'd have to get up pretty early in the morning to beat the Catholic Church to an apology.:hmm:

29th Apr 2013, 02:17
IIRC it was 31st October 1992 - 359 bloody years after the event! :*

29th Apr 2013, 02:48
The speed of light is 300 000 000 m/s

The speed of a Catholic Apology is... 0.023 mm/s, which appears to be equal to the slowest recorded speed ever, that of the large banana slug (Ariolimax californicus)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/47/Banana_slug_closeup.jpg/220px-Banana_slug_closeup.jpg Pope Urban VIII

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29th Apr 2013, 06:43
299,792,458 m/s Fox...as the photon flies.

...But since photons don't care what we've
measured their speed at - then 300 mill is
quite good enough.

tony draper
29th Apr 2013, 07:26
I prefer 186,000 MPS after all the speed of light was discovered in miles and feet.
Men went to the Moon in mph and fps they burned fuel in tons and pounds,not feckin meters or them kilos thingies, the largest telescope for most of me life was measured in inches,200 of buggas and sat on top of Mt Palomar whos height was measured in good honest feet it measured distances in light years which is miles traveled year.
We shouldn't give in to those dammed furriners just because they are innumerate and can only think in tens:=

29th Apr 2013, 13:21
looking at the picture, how utterly insignificant I am.

To feel truly insignificant watch the IMAX film about the Hubble telescope. Amazing. What I have trouble wrapping my feeble brain around is just the concept of space. I cannot imagine anything that is limitless. However, if it isn't, what lies beyond its boundary? Fascinating stuff, because basically, we have no idea what is really out there. What we are seeing in deep space happened a long time ago.

29th Apr 2013, 13:52
Tony Draper, well played.

As to fudge factors, isn't the Cosmological constant the fudge factors of all fudge factors? :8:}

30th Apr 2013, 04:20
Drapes it doesn't matter what we talking monkeys use as
common units on Terrestria - just that we know how fast
photons go somewhere.

In tlhIngan Hol for example different units of speed and
time are used - but photons still don't care.