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SpringHeeledJack
25th Apr 2013, 18:03
BBC News - Spain unemployment hits record high (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22290422)

I knew that unemployment in Spain was bad, but hadn't really thought about it in detail. Anecdotal evidence suggests that many of the young and educated are leaving to Germany and the UK seeking employment. Scary stuff.....just how do you keep a 3rd of the working population with enough benefits to stop civil unrest ?


SHJ

Sunnyjohn
25th Apr 2013, 18:42
Civil unrest in Spain is so common that most people, other than those taking part, ignore it. There were 5 demonstrations per day in the Valencia Region last year, most of them in Valencia city. The British media wait for a bit of blood in Madrid and splash (sorry!) it all over the papers but in general the demonstrations are sober and peaceable. What is more worrying is whether there is anybody waiting in the wings ready to take advantage of the situation. Spain has looked to its King in the past but unfortunately he's blotted his copybook and apparently refuses to hand over the reins to his son, who seems to be able and has the highest popularity rating of any of the royals here. We had the Popular Front march down our street last year - they're the equivalent of the British National Front - and it was quite scary. It is rumoured that the British Consulate have plans in place for a mass evacuation of British expats, although they have vigorously denied it. Who knows?

flash8
25th Apr 2013, 18:48
Mate owns a chain of guesthouses throughout the land of the Jocks.

Three years ago most of the staff applying were Polish, now he says most of the applications are Spanish!

Strange times.

G-CPTN
25th Apr 2013, 18:54
most of the applications are Spanish!
¿qué? . . . . .

cavortingcheetah
25th Apr 2013, 18:54
A plan to repatriate the Poms from Spain to Britain? Would the NHS and the pension people be able to stand the strain? HMRC would collapse under the over load of dealing with so much plotted evasion?

tony draper
25th Apr 2013, 18:55
Seems to me that Governments in lands with grass rather than sand underfoot have learned they have little to fear from civil disobedience and riot.
We see street riots on the news every night now that would have had them shiteing themselves a decade or so ago.
:uhoh:

cavortingcheetah
25th Apr 2013, 19:02
A hundred years ago someone would have sent in the cavalry with drawn sabres and there'd not be riots and civil disobedience on the television every night.

tony draper
25th Apr 2013, 19:41
Now they send the Police but the stupid bastards have forgotten the first rule of Governing ,never piss off your Police Force your Intelligence Service or your Military, used to include the Church but not now,now you mustn't piss off the Mosques.
:rolleyes:

airship
25th Apr 2013, 20:23
Presumably, many B&Bs and other hotel establishments, but especially the English "Riviera" situated around Torquay in SW England might once again find themselves employing Spanish "Manuels". Only this time around, the Spaiards will probably speak English better than the locals (in addition to speaking Spanish, German, French etc)...?!

Not much chance that the BBC will produce a new "Fawlty Towers" ca. 2013/14 unfortunetly... :sad:

OFSO
25th Apr 2013, 20:31
just how do you keep a 3rd of the working population with enough benefits to stop civil unrest ?

Very simple according to Rajoy...you tax the working population, pensioners and anyone who still owns a house.

For the first time in 40 years Spain's population is dropping as South American workers and Dutch, British and German pensioners are all leaving in hundreds of thousands. To be precise, 206000 left in the past twelve months. (Source: Spanish office of statistics). It's that grim here.

So less tax income, Mr Rajoy. Oh well, you can always ring your hands in despair and raise the taxes yet again on the people who remain. And the French are still arriving to build holiday homes, and pumping money into the territories such as northern Spanish Catalunia - because things are even worse across the border in France....

flash8
25th Apr 2013, 20:38
Not much chance that the BBC will produce a new "Fawlty Towers" ca. 2013/14 unfortunately...

Nor a "Mind your language" (unfortunately).. which I always enjoyed as a kid.

Seriously though it is pretty scary what is happening throughout Europe. The Bankers seem to be getting stronger with complicit politicians abound.

It won't be too long before we have a Working down t'pits on the one hand and Bankers on the other - a fine dichotomy indeed.

OFSO
25th Apr 2013, 20:43
By the way, Sunny John:

Civil Unrest & Military Takeover. Quite possible IMHO, the trouble is, given past evidence, the Catalans will all divide into separate factions and start fighing among themselves, allowing the Spanish Army to march in and slaughter everyone. Plenty of paths and tracks across the Pyranees for the OFSOs to escape northward, but the French aren't likely to welcome us.

Remember that the French only closed their last concentration camp - it was at Rivesaltes a few km north of Perpignan - in 1983.

Tankertrashnav
25th Apr 2013, 22:21
Remember that the French only closed their last concentration camp - it was at Rivesaltes a few km north of Perpignan - in 1983


Didnt know anything about that - what was that all about?

sitigeltfel
26th Apr 2013, 05:19
Didnt know anything about that - what was that all about?

Camp Joffre (http://www.anglophone-direct.com/Rivesaltes-internment-camp-camp)

SpringHeeledJack
26th Apr 2013, 06:07
As OFSO sagely pointed out, by taxing those who are working or have assets at a higher level to subsidise those who are not will only result, theoretically, in less spending/investing and therefore less tax revenue and so on in ever decreasing circles...scary. As with the Poles and others with a bit of 'get up and go' ,there will be emigration of the young to other lands, but that only takes care of so much of the 'problem'. If the Spanish government are really seriously trying to milk the retirees as well :ugh: the very people who will just be spending (to live) peaceably and have few demands, other than normal medical needs, it makes you wonder just how desperate they are.



SHJ

OFSO
26th Apr 2013, 10:42
I took a walk around the port in Empuriabrava marina this morning. Never seen so many shops, bars, restaurants closed down and for sale or rent.

OTOH I've never seen so many new villas going up in Empuriabrava: several older-but-still OK villas have been purchased and levelled in order to build new ones. And cement "tankers" blocking streets everywhere while they pump out new foundations and roofs; I was trying to get past trucks delivering spray-on-wall-covering silos, Chinese in our road sweeping to keep road clean of mud (someone must have borrocked them about the mess on their building site).

So on the one hand Spain's economy is collapsing, on the other people (and French) rushing in to buy and build.

Dont Hang Up
26th Apr 2013, 12:55
At least the job vacancies situation has taken a brief upturn this week.

Apparently Real Madrid and Barcelona are each looking for 11 guys who can actually play football. :}

OFSO
26th Apr 2013, 17:58
Of course dare one say....official figures...pinch of salt ?

I know more than one family living here full time, running a business, or both spouses working hard...children in local school.....and the tax office has never heard of them.

Milo Minderbinder
26th Apr 2013, 18:17
I don't understand........I never realised the Spanish actually worked, I thought they just lounged around all day wine drinking and siesta-bedding

Capetonian
26th Apr 2013, 18:25
I worked in Spain for a couple of years. Shortly before leaving, I went to the Hacienda (tax office) to ask them what I had to do about the tax I would owe them for which I had not yet received the assessment. The chap seemed quite surprised at the question, and said I could pay when I got the assessment which they would send to me in due course.

I offered to give him a forwarding address in South Africa, where he probably thought lions roam the streets, and he told me, in the way one might speak to a retarded 7 year old, that their system could only take Spanish addresses ... entonces ..... pues .... nada ... no nos sirve para nada (roughly translated : it's a waste of time).

I doubt whether it's much different now.

OFSO
26th Apr 2013, 20:27
I never realised the Spanish actually worked

I can't speak for Spain but have lunch on any industrial estate here and you'll find the workers are in and out in an hour. Which may account for their output per senyor being higher than Germany. (OECD figures, no less).

And as for the blokes what come and work on your house, many is the time the Mrs and I have sat there at 9 p.m. midst the wet paint and fresh brickwork and new double-glazing, muttering WHY DON'T THEY FINISH AND GO HOME !

Sunnyjohn
26th Apr 2013, 20:55
Civil Unrest & Military Takeover. Quite possible IMHO, the trouble is, given past evidence, the Catalans will all divide into separate factions and start fighing among themselves, allowing the Spanish Army to march in and slaughter everyone. You've got it in one, OFSO, but then you've been here longer than us! Can't help thinking it might happen again.

Shack37
26th Apr 2013, 21:52
It is rumoured that the British Consulate have plans in place for a mass
evacuation of British expats, although they have vigorously denied it. Who
knows?


Not a rumour that I've heard yet though if they deny it, it's possibly true.

Personally, I don't believe for a moment that any such plan exists. Nor do I see the Spanish army marching in to slaughter all and sundry anytime soon.
What happened in 1982 did not involve the army, they stayed in barracks. It was the Guardia Civil who entered the parliament under Lt. Col. Tejeras and later left, tails between their legs to be arrested by their comrades in arms.
Today's Spanish army is a professional outfit led by more politically savvy generals than back then when the Transition was in progress and the brass still had delusions of their time under Franco.

Milo Minderbinder
26th Apr 2013, 22:04
I know nowt about Spanish politics, so what maybe a daft question

Is there still extant any strong pro-Franco / pro-Fascist grouping or political party thats big enough to matter?

hellsbrink
27th Apr 2013, 05:39
It is rumoured that the British Consulate have plans in place for a mass evacuation of British expats, although they have vigorously denied it. Who knows?

Wherever there are British expats, or British workers, the British government will have an evacuation plan. It's quite normal.

OFSO
27th Apr 2013, 07:06
Is there still extant any strong pro-Franco / pro-Fascist grouping or political party thats big enough to matter?

In a word, Milo - YES. Spain is still run by the old clique in Madrid (the last time I used the "F" word to describe their political leanings my post was deleted) and yes they are very much Franco supporters. You only have to look at what happens to anyone trying to unearth details of Franco's atrocities in the Civil War to see how powerful they are. There are also similar thinkers in the upper ranks of the Spanish army.

Nothing changes.

Sunnyjohn
27th Apr 2013, 09:39
Catalonia's bid for independence might upset the applecart. There's nothing technically to stop them declaring themselves an independent country but they do owe the Spanish government an awful lot of money and the EU might tell them that they have to pay it back before the can become independent. Of course, there's nothing, either, to stop them becoming a country outside the EU. Catalunia would be followed closely by Pais Vasco, Galicia and Valencia. Watch this space . . .

OFSO
27th Apr 2013, 10:12
they do owe the Spanish government an awful lot of money

Catalunia's payments to Madrid are currently running at eight billion euros a year of which they get little back in return, having failed to set up (as the cunning Basques did) an equitable tax-return system. Probably the Catalans were too busy arguing among themselves at the time.

Sunnyjohn
27th Apr 2013, 12:21
Thanks, OFSO - I wondered if they were paying it back. How long will it take to clear their debt?

OFSO
27th Apr 2013, 12:31
There is no debt. Catalunia and Galacia - and to some extent, the Basque country - are keeping Madrid afloat. And always have done. Why do you think Madrid is so terrified of losing them to the separatistas.

stuckgear
27th Apr 2013, 12:56
Not a rumour that I've heard yet though if they deny it, it's possibly true.

Personally, I don't believe for a moment that any such plan exists.

it's SOP for any consulate, having a plan to evac expats should any event occur, they often have a couple of different manuals to deal with different events, natural disaster, political, civil etc etc..

Shack37
27th Apr 2013, 14:24
Hellsbrink and Stuckgear
Thanks for that info, should have known really. I thought a more "Spain Specific Plan" was being referred to.
Must engage brain before attacking keyboard:ok:

Sunnyjohn
27th Apr 2013, 18:53
There is no debt.
What's this about then? (from BBC online)
Catalonia asks Spain for further 9bn euros bailout
The independence-minded region of Catalonia has asked the Spanish central government for an extra 9bn euros (£7.7bn) in bailout money.
Catalonia's regional government said it needed the money to pay down debts and meet deficit reduction targets.
It adds to the 5bn euros the debt-stricken region initially requested from Spain in August last year.

OFSO
27th Apr 2013, 19:45
It is, mom ami, the wily Catalans being aware that money is to be had and are asking for it. I will dig out some facts tomorrow, if it is another wet and cold day here and there is nothing else to do.

Heard a ludicruous statement on BBC today that "property prices in Spain need to fall another 10%". Where do these clowns get their ideas ? Need ? Do they think the government sets the prices ? Or some nebulous agency ? Maybe the banks ?

Property prices are and always have been and always will be, set by the market. More customers arrive, prices go up, less customers arrive, prices fall.

Right now sales of building land are going up: m2 prices are very high. Sales of what are amusing called "pre-owned" villas are poor - but owners are hanging on and not selling at lower prices. Sales of "town houses" and apartments are good because owners have accepted they will get a lower price.

It's called a Free Market.

Sunnyjohn
27th Apr 2013, 21:53
if it is another wet and cold day here and there is nothing else to do. It will be, OFSO - I've just looked at the forecast - so I look forward to your next educational post (that's not meant with irony either!).

pudoc
27th Apr 2013, 22:01
Unemployment 36% in some cities.

Hardly surprising they have financial troubles, they all close their businesses from 1pm till 4pm to sit on the beach. Never is a rush with the Spanish though. The amount of times I needed to go to the the shops in the afternoon. How about the 'local bank holidays'. In your town it's a normal day, 5 minutes down the road it's a local bank holiday, everything is closed and you had no idea about it.

Although I have to say one thing. Despite the fact they have rocketing unemployment and financially are pretty stuffed, you don't hear people moaning about their country as much as the Brits do!

G-CPTN
27th Apr 2013, 22:11
Mañana ? . . .

flash8
27th Apr 2013, 22:18
Unemployment 36% in some cities.

Is that so? heck, that is scary... much scarier than I would have imagined,very surprised no serious civil unrest.

Capetonian
27th Apr 2013, 22:23
There is a lot of unemployment but the official figures are meaningless. Many of the registered 'unemployed' are working on the black.

Matari
27th Apr 2013, 22:39
Many of the registered 'unemployed' are working on the black.

Yet they are on the dole because they are officially 'unemployed.' What an effed up system where the government creates polices which force people to leave the official labor force and find work on the black market, where they don't pay taxes to help fund the dole.

The stuff of socialist dreams.

Shack37
27th Apr 2013, 22:51
Unemployment 36% in some cities.

Hardly surprising they have financial troubles, they all close their usinesses from 1pm till 4pm to sit on the beach. Never is a rush with the Spanish though. The amount of times I needed to go to the the shops in the afternoon. How about the 'local bank holidays'. In your town it's a normal day, 5 minutes down the road it's a local bank holiday, everything is closed and you had no idea about it.


By businesses I presume you mean the shops? You fail to mention that having re-opened at 4pm they are then open till 8pm or later. In some places they don't close but take turns for lunchbreaks. Maybe you think they should all change their routine to suit you.
Are there not "local bank holidays" in the UK? I certainly remember being unable to contact clients etc in another location due to it being a local bank holiday where they were.

G-CPTN
27th Apr 2013, 23:01
East Germany 1990:-

Restaurant in a town on the Elbe east of Dresden closed during the lunch period . . . :ugh:

OFSO
28th Apr 2013, 07:35
This closing time...... true enough, opening hours are 10:00-13:00 and 16:30-20:30 for shops etc. But that's because Spain is treated as a whole and the north adopts quite unnecessarily the practices used for good reason down in the glowing heat of the south. Opera and theatre performance here start at 22:30 and continue on to 2 or 3 in the morning, because in Andalucia that's the coolest part of the 24 hr cycle. Same thing with the school working day - we have a 3 hr break in the middle of the day "because its so hot". Only up here in the north, it ain't.

OFSO (sitting here with two pullovers on and the central heating turned up. Oh look, it's spring).

Shack37
28th Apr 2013, 09:25
OFSO
:D:D:ok:

When we were living in the UK my wife, who is from the north, was often asked by friends to demonstrate flamenco dancing.
As you so rightly say, it can be a bit fresh up here at times.

Capetonian
28th Apr 2013, 09:38
East Germany 1990:-
Restaurant in a town on the Elbe east of Dresden closed during the lunch period . .

East Berlin a year after the so-called reunification. .

Upon arrival in Berlin ............ we found a place for lunch and sat down.

The meal was memorable only for its total lack of everything - we even had to fetch our own cutlery - as it was several more years before the concept of 'service' infiltrated the old 'East'. When we wanted to pay our bill, we were told that our waitress had left. How could we pay, I enquired. The waiter walked off. Five minutes later, I repeated the question and was told that only our waitress could take our money, and she was off duty until the next day.

Sunnyjohn
28th Apr 2013, 11:16
they all close their businesses from 1pm till 4pm to sit on the beach.

This is incorrect, at least where I live. All five local supermarkets open 9 to 9 as does the department store. All greengrocers here open from 7 to at least 10 pm. Many other shops here open all day. Rubbish collection is almost 24 hours. all public transport runs from 6 to midnight. Local council offices are open all day as are the health centres. Post Offices open from 8.30 to 6. And so on. As I say, I cannot speak for the rest of Spain but I do live in its third largest city.

El Grifo
28th Apr 2013, 11:50
Yep Sunnyjohn, pretty much the same here in Spains southernmost territories !

Added to which we can get a doctors appointment within 24 hrs in many cases the same day !!