Loooooooooong wait at SIA

[flying.monkeyz]

SIA management has just recently updated cadet pilots that the waiting period from post CPL/IR at JDK to Advance Jet Training at MCY can be as long as almost 20 months, and perhaps 8 months wait for the 777 type course after that.

Things are just looking rotten at the moment. :ugh:

[dss3000]

So 28 months from zero to 777 hmmmm not such a wait in my opinion.
Where I come from its longer like probably never lol

[flying.monkeyz]

It's 28 months wait from CPL to 777 ground school.

[captjns]

Children don't realize that the normal progression from the first engine start up in a 152 to any jet used to be som 5 to 7 years of real earned flying. So to bitch and moan about 28 months? Give me a freaken break:rolleyes:!

[fullforward]

..always throwing toys away from the crib...so boring!

[PilotWA123]

Your cadets do not realize how long we climb up the ladder from flying Cessna to Jet... Stop complaining like a baby..

[flying.monkeyz]

Not sure who are you guys referring to when it comes to bitching and moaning and complaining. I'm neither a cadet and nor are the cadets mine. I'm just sharing what was told to me from a friend of mine.

[Fair.Pilot]

Get out of SFC in Jandakot if u can't accept the facts that cadets will fly a jet in no time while you're SCREAMING your envy at those cadets!

Please take a dip at Swan River....

[rotatejunkie]

Anyways f.monkey,
Theres that SIA wannabe thread that you may wana share this info with ;)

[msian1147]

Fair.Pilot

well said, terbaik :ok:

[perantau]

Hope during the waiting time, exclusive employment to SIA isn't expected of them. They should have some option of finding paying jobs in the mean time.

[parabellum]

Wouldn't be a bad idea if they went the old QANTAS route and after basic flying training they would have to go off and get at least 1500 P1 hours in light, commercial aircraft, before doing their jet conversion.

[richard III]

and the "owner" of the Learjet? who's he going to sell the hours to?....they have to somehow keep the most expensive pilot course in the world going, don't they?

[bleedthesky]

So the ones who have cleared the interview and are still waiting to get inducted into OBS will have to wait for 4 years minimum I guess?

:}

[MainDude]

There's always the less glamorous Tiger job round the corner...

[flying.monkeyz]

There's nothing less glamorous about Tiger. At the rate things are going, one may end up with 4 bars on the shoulder with Tiger before the SQ guy even smells his three bars.

[dl_88]

different country, different working culture. if you guys noticed, there ain't a lot of GA jobs out of SG. Airlines/Airforce are pretty much the only way to go as a singaporean.

[bamboo30]

Thats if they have 48 k to throw in upfront too and there arent many GA jobs around for a SG national to work in even if they wanted to. They cant just go to Aus without a work permit and start flying GA eh?

[JammedStab]

While the cadets have it good, 200 hours and on a widebody jet......I am really glad that I was able to work my way up to a 747. Quite a few very cool turboprops and old jets, operating on skis to amazing parts of the world, towing gliders and dropping parachutists and lots of small plane flying. Very glad to have done it and would like to do more.

Sometimes I look at these guys and girls and think they missed out on a bunch of interesting stuff, but I like airplanes while some of these guys don't even know what a DC-3 is and don't seem to care.

[CDRW]

Jammed - I totally agree with you - I am similar in my first few 1000 hrs to you - from J3 Cubs to C402's - para dropping, survey flying, instructing gave a very good grounding. BUT - cadets these days do not have that opportunity and it is not their fault -- as the thread started, some one asked why it takes so long - and really it should not take so long for a chap on a cadet pilot scheme. Absolutely yes, he will being some basic survival experiences, but such is the way of the flying world we now live in.

[SOPS]

They don't know what a DC 3 is.......??? I had one young chap ask me the other day what a 727 was :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[flying.monkeyz]

I heard there was once an SQ 777 FO was asked by his Capt to identify an aircraft he was pointing to. He told his Capt it was an A330. Turns out it was a 777. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[eerie]

@ flying.monkeyz
I heard the same story too. Any chance you hang out at WSSL often?

[ZKSUJ]

I've had a now SQ 777 guy ask me how to tell the difference between a A320 and 767. I was a little bit dumb founded but for this particular guy getting a job with SQ as a pilot was about 'looking the part' and 'status' rather than actually wanting to be a pilot. (Same guy told me only the best pilots in the world were employed by SQ and every other airline's crews were second rank, he was also very condescending to some of our flight instructors)

Another SQ777 guy (hell of a nice guy) started complaining that he had to do just under 2 whole years as an SO till he Finally made FO.

I've seen other guys get 'pissed off' and 'annoyed' because someone mentioned they had more chance in going for Silk Air than SQ at the time. Pissed off because the A320 was a nothing plane to them and it was not a 777.

My point is for some that went through the cadet scheme, there is a HUGE sense of self entitlement for the job, when in comparison they did not have to 'work' as hard for the job or 'do their time' when compared to those in countries with more mature industries. Many will argue that if some of these individuals did go through a few years in GA, this attitude would be less apparent. GA seems to weed out those who are in there for the job from those who are there for the perceived status that comes with it. It definitely kept me humble.

However this is not my argument. Many of these guys just happened to be born in the right place and that is part of the hand that they are dealt, good for them.

I just hope some of these guys who are complaining will be able to put things in perspective (from a global point of view). While it may take a year or so for a person to go from finishing their licenses to the right seat of a 777/A330, it is still a very privileged position that they are in and a relatively easy one. They need to remember that their colleagues (yea colleagues not inferiors as the guy in my first paragraph would like to believe) have to go through instructing, mustering, charter work, turboprop flying, narrowbody flying etc before they see a widebody, often resulting in thousands of hours and years of hard work before getting an interview for heavy metal. (I remember when I used worked night shifts, 7 days a week to make ends meet after I finished my flying job. But this is not their concern nor should it be).

So please before people are saying that it is such a long wait for the cadet scheme in SQ or CX or any other airline for that matter. Put things in perspective and remember there is always someone out there worse off that you. In some countries it is not even legal to get into a jet or larger turbo prop with 200+ hours, so the fact that you are doing it already means you have an 'advantage' over others just because in many cases the airline is from the place where you were born.

I have no beef with any one in a proper cadet scheme (pay to fly scheme does not count), if you have or had the opportunity, good for you and I wish you nothing but the best. I know a few guys in SQ, some are a bit cocky (as mentioned above) while others are really excellent people so I'm not having a go at all cadets. But for those who are getting frustrated, be gracious for the opportunity you have (because not every one does), remember that theres always someone out there worse off than you, and most importantly KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE.

[rotatejunkie]

Lovely post ZKSUJ..
There was a SIA/ALPA-S union/management tussle a few years back with regards to how much coin and perks the A380 crew were to receive.
Back and forth it went like children counting marbles...
My personal view- Do these pilots know of the conditions outside of SIA?
Some humility and appreciation would go a long way.
Similarly, i have met snobs/cocky ones, as well as gd guys, some who have become gd mates.

[bamboo30]

Cos that story was told to you by a capt. Yes its true and that guy is a capt now. Btw had a first hand expeience a capt an instructor with lots of previous experience couldnt tell a 777 which was taxiing in right in front. He s a 777 capt btw. Another was a capt who was from GA came thru the ranks the hard way, couldnt tell a A310 from a A300, so come on, seriously its not a big deal and its not confined to only cadets.

[cyrilroy21]

@bamboo

The A310 and A300 are very similar looking aircraft and have a lot in common
The A310 was infact derived from the A300
The only SIGNIFICANT difference I can seem to find between them is that A310 is shorter in length

A300
Photos: Airbus A300B4-605R Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Kuwait-Airways/Airbus-A300B4-605R/2256396/L/&sid=152dc9ef33fdb39074e88da56ae28b4f)

A310
Photos: Airbus A310-308 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Kuwait-Airways/Airbus-A310-308/2251976/L/&sid=152dc9ef33fdb39074e88da56ae28b4f)


As for the 777 I really dont think there is another aircraft that you can compare it with to confuse oneself.....

[parabellum]

ZKSUJ - a large part of the 'HUGE entitlement', as you put it, is down to the fact that the competition for a cadet place in SIA is very, very stiff and only a few of the hundreds that apply make it. Gaining a place on the national carriers cadet scheme is no different in Singapore to QANTAS, BA, LH, CX, KLM and many others, a highly desirable and coveted position, the ones that don't make it to a cadet place have virtually no chance of instructing, mustering etc. etc. and then coming back to the national airline.

When SIA was in a phase of rapid expansion movement was fairly fast for SO/FO, bearing in mind a Singaporean has to be twenty six years of age to start training, now that expansion has slowed and many expats have gone, promotion will be much slower.

rotatejunkie -Some humility and appreciation would go a long way.

Get real please! Why should SIA pilots, (who are not the best paid in the world, by a long way), give a tuppeny stuff about what other airlines pay? SIA is a highly profitable airline with a pot full of money and the crews are as entitled as anyone, in any airline, to negotiate their terms and conditions. Do you think QANTAS, ANZ, BA pilots, to name a few, even consider what other airlines pay unless the other airline is paying more!

[ZKSUJ]

I'm aware of that with the cadet scheme. My point was to keep things in perspective. No matter how good you are you shouldn't claim to be above others. Don't complain about a few months wait when to many others it is a little worse.

Some of these guys might be so called 'cream of the crop' but I know for a fact there are guys in there (SQ and CX) who struggled to pass a PPL and other flight tests. Yes they can't go into other forms of flying if you get rejected but point is, there are good and bad pilots in there just like any where else, same as other airlines.

Please note this sentiment does not apply to SQ but across all boards. I have many friends who were instructors before making it to an airline, these guys worked at a different company to me. Anyway, one or two cadets (of a different airline) training at that organisation have said to my friends who were instructing them 'we'll be flying a jet long before you ever will, so why should we listen to you'. This is what I mean by self entitlement. Great news for you if you get a cadet ship, but it does not mean you are any better than a guy in a country where cadets do not exist.

No matter how hot shot you think you are, your self entitlement should not blindly lead you to believe you are God's gift to God himself. (of course I'm speaking of a select few I know and it does not reflect the whole group).

Anyway, back to the original thread topic. For all those in a queue for training. Relax, your time will come... You've got it good in the grand scheme of things.

[Sky Dancer]

Well for all the SQ pilots out there who think you are the best in the world , just remember that you have had your fair share of accidents and incidents in the rest years , just to remind you ....

1) Silk Air crash,Indonesia
2) SIA B 747 crash , Taipei
3) B 777 off the runway incident at Munich
4) B 777 wing strike in China

and the list goes on...

The bottom line , remember it's good to be humble in aviation.Aim to be the best but never rest thinking you are the best even if you are good....very good:ok:

[Captain Dart]

There was also a very near accident at Auckland involving an RTOW error and tailstrike in an SQ 747 some years ago.

I also had to listen to an SQ pilot arguing with Hong Kong ATC a few weeks ago. It was excruciating.

[rotatejunkie]

Get real please! Why should SIA pilots, (who are not the best paid in the world, by a long way), give a tuppeny stuff about what other airlines pay? SIA is a highly profitable airline with a pot full of money and the crews are as entitled as anyone, in any airline, to negotiate their terms and conditions. Do you think QANTAS, ANZ, BA pilots, to name a few, even consider what other airlines pay unless the other airline is paying more!.

I believe, correct me if i'm wrong: that Emirates' pay scheme of similar pay scales across all fleets was offered (obviously less marbles to play with) and then settled for this :-

[Fri, May 25, 2007
AsiaOne

Singapore Airlines was today ordered to pay pilots of its new super jumbo Airbus A380 more for the additional responsibilities they will have to take.

The Industrial Arbitration Court judgement made the ruling today, setting a benchmark that could have global implications. It brings a settlement to the highly publicised dispute between the national carrier and the Airline Pilots Association-Singapore (Alpa-S) which represents the majority of SIA's 1,800 pilots.

The union had said that the number of passengers and the heavier the plane, the bigger a pilot's responsibilities. The new double-decker A380 will have about 470 seats.

A three-member panel ruled that SIA will have to pay the captains who fly the A380 -- the world's biggest passenger plane -- as much as S$16,500 a month, which is 7.8 per cent more than the pilots of the Boeing 747-400 (744) conventional jumbo jets.

The pilots had demanded as much as S$21,615.

Arbitrator Justice Tan Lee Meng, in handing down the ruling, said the maximum salary for A380 pilots will remain at $16,500, which is the maximum of what the B-744 captains are being paid, and the minimum for first officers on the super jumbo will be S$450 more than on the 747-400.

SIA initially proposed to pay the A380 pilots between S$9,300 and S$15,300 a month, the same as those commanding the B-777 and A340-500 aircraft, which can carry as many as 400 passengers and fly 18 hours non-stop.

Mr P. James, President of Alpa-S, welcomed the outcome.

"We recognise there is no market data for the A380. We will accept the court's considered judgment," he told reporters today, even though it was below the S$1,000 the union had sought. "It's at least more than half-way of what we wanted. We are satisfied. We will move from here."

SIA spokesman Stephen Forshaw said the court's decision brings an end to the dispute.

"The A380 is a new aircraft," he said. "There's very little by way of an international benchmark to measure things. The judgement now gives us some certainty to move forward. "The pilots are very keen to get this aircraft into service."

SIA has committed to buy 19 of the A380s and is scheduled to receive the first in October after a series of delays that plagued European manufacturer Airbus.

Tom Ballantyne, chief correspondent for the industry magazine Orient Aviation, told AFP that A380 pilots from each country will have to set their pay scales individually, but the Singapore case could be used as a reference point.

"A union making a claim for new rates may bring that into the argument," Ballantyne said.

During the hearing, an SIA official said physical differences between the A380 and the Boeing 777-300 and 747-400 would have little impact on piloting due to similarities in system technologies, cockpit layout and instrumentation.

While the A380 is heavier than other Airbus and Boeing jets, the weight difference is managed by a high level of automation and other aerospace technologies, the official said.

James countered during his arguments that flying different aircraft is "not as easy as changing cars".

In its decision, the court said that "a pilot has very heavy responsibilities for the safety of passengers, crew, cargo and the aircraft" regardless of the ease or difficulty of flying the plane.]

[parabellum]

From those figures, rotatejunkie, you can see that SIA are not the best paid in the industry by a long way.

ZKSUJ - Yes, I take your point.

[Hogger60]

Excess pilots: SIA waives cadets' bonds

Singapore Airlines, which has too many pilots amid a business downturn, does not expect the surplus to ease any time soon.
Cadet pilots have been told that until Sept 30, those who quit may have their bonds waived.
The usual payback for leaving before serving the seven-year work bond can be more than $250,000, pilots said.
There are 95 cadets currently in training, said SIA, which froze fresh recruitment early last year.

From the Straits Times. What happens next?

[jetjockey696]

http://2.bp.********.com/-pdtIqDtzCj8/UZrf-aRrTgI/AAAAAAAABUc/jhRjWY-ZoX4/s1600/SIAcadetbond.jpg

bp.b*l*o*g*s*p*o*t

[Dahawk]

Can't get into the URL even after i replace the ****

[Hogger60]

Take out the * and put the letters starting with b and ending with t together into one word. It works as advertised

[jetjockey696]

thank you hogger

[smiling monkey]

So, SIA still made an operating profit of $229 million dollars and they still take measure such as these? Many other airlines around Asia would only dream of making half that profit! LOL!

I remember in the 1980's the same thing happened. SIA were over staffed with pilots and offered the newbie F/O's to become flight attendants in the mean time until things picked up as it usually does after a slump. I wonder how many back then took up the offer and are now wide body captains? As someone said above, aviation boom and bust is cyclic. Every 7 years or so things will peak. So, if the last boom was around 2007-2008, then we expect another one in 2014-2015. Come back to this post in 2015, and prove me wrong! LOL!