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mattpilot
24th Apr 2013, 17:18
I hope i can get some clarification here about something thats been irking me.

I've had a rather long break from aviation (few years), so i just randomly decided to go to the local FTO (germany) to book a flight with an instructor just to see if i can perhaps find the love for flying again. I tell the boss there it's been a few years and i just wanna hop in a plane with an instructor and do a few turns. He tells me "no can do" - i need a medical. I clarify that i want to go up with an instructor - dont even care about logging the time or whatever - just fly. He says "no". Apparently person on the left seat needs a medical at all times as he's .. and this is i guess where he's quoting the regs... the 'operating pilot'.

So i say something stupid.... i say "so its not like in the US, where.. " ... he instantly corrects me and says you need a medical at all times in the US too, otherwise its illegal etc.. . Basically he's lecturing me. I know he's wrong (unless pilot station is defined, PIC can sit wherever the hell he wants to sit), but I haven't told him at this point that a few years ago while i was still flying in the US i was a MEI plus actively teaching CFI' Initials... so i kinda know what i'm talking about... but what the heck. I wasn't gunna tell him as i wanted the argument to cool off.


So... in europe, do i need a medical to control the plane on the left hand seat with an instructor on the right? Do i REALLY need a medical to just touch the controls or is this guy just being difficult?


Over the past few years i've had no success in finding an FTO in germany that actually is NOT difficult. I get some nice information on pprune and am all excited about doing a converstion - then i go talk to the instructor and all i get is ... well ... contempt? about having a US certificates at all. Nobody seemingly wants to do a 'no frills' conversion. Gotta milk that cash cow, eh? :-)

B2N2
24th Apr 2013, 17:46
Welcome back to the wonderful world of 'Europa-land'.
I call BS on the medical but it may be a school rule to avoid anybody with, lets say, unresolved emotional issues (krank im kopf :})in the airplane.

redbull21
24th Apr 2013, 18:42
There is no requirement in Europe for the 'student' pilot in the left seat to have a valid medical if on a dual flight with an instructor who is the PIC and has a valid medical.

Of course if the student was to go solo then a valid medical is required, goes without saying and so virtually every student will have a medical and this issue never arises.

If there is any training done which does not require solo flights such as lets say CPL training or IR training, again a valid medical is not required whilst you have an instructor on board, indeed you can even do your skills test without a valid medical as your examiner is the PIC and will have a valid medical, however you won't be issued your CPL or IR until you have a valid medical.

This chap may have his own rules for his FTO within his Ops manual but it is not a legal thing issued by EASA.

mattpilot
24th Apr 2013, 19:14
Thanks for the feedback.

I didn't ask to clarify if it was the regs he's quoting or his ops manual, though i reckon it was the regs. I talked to his admin first, who also specified i gotta get a medical first before doing anything else. Plus apparently i am supposed to get a current FAA bi-annual flight review before proceeding with any conversion course (which is new to me, but i got no information on this - doesn't matter). Questioning any of their information quickly led to agitation, so i just refrained from it and accepted what they had to say.

He did say i could fly from the right seat, with an instructor on the left seat - again, saying it had something to do with the operating pilot having to be in the left seat with a valid medical. But whatever ... One can only wonder.

Thanks again :ok:

Cobalt
24th Apr 2013, 23:09
The requirement for a medical is just wrong. The regulations (FCL.040 and FCL.050 and MED.A.030) require you to have a medical if you are exercising the privileges of a licence, or if you are a student flying solo. You do not need one to be trained.

As far as the training for the "conversion" is concerned, as a holder of the equivalent FAA licence/rating, as long as you have 100 hours [assuming you want to convert FAA PPL ASEL to EASA PPL(A) SEP] you have to take two theory exams and the practical test, the training is only as required to pass the test. You will also need (separately) a radio telephony licence.

However, you have to "hold" the non-EASA [ICAO compliant] licence and the rating, an expired licence and rating will not do. What the German LBA has to say about a non-expiring FAA licence that is not current I do not know, it is probably safe to have the BFR to avoid any doubt.

I do not know if EASA law is currently implemented in Germany, though, so you might have to wait.

And while German law indeed regulates where the PIC has to sit, the same law says that this does not apply to training flights. If they don't believe it, ask them to read Para. 4 (2), (3) and (4) of the LuftVO.

But my general advice would be, pick a school that has a clue and actually wants your business.

mattpilot
25th Apr 2013, 12:12
Thanks for that input Cobalt.

I'm kinda weird when it comes to regs - oddly, i like them and find 'em easy to read :-).

I looked up your reference (was actually paragraph 2, not 4 - just incase anyone else thinks of looking it up :ok: ) and found something basically that says the same thing as the equivilant FAA reg.


As for your recommendation on finding a different school - that was my thought after talking to that guy and the reason i started this thread. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the 'unreasonable' guy. :}

mad_jock
25th Apr 2013, 16:53
Germany can interpret things a bit differently to the rest of us.

It could be the local inspector has made all the locals have the same rule some bollocks about needing an AOC if you don't have a medical.

mattpilot
2nd May 2013, 12:10
got an update for anyone who gives a damn :-)

They (school) faxed me an "opinion" from the german CAA (LBA) about an inquiry they made regarding intro flights - dated 2010. Apparently Intro flights fall under the category of "training programs" and thus require a medical in hand before flight. If it weren't for this official "opinion", the LuftVZO para. 24 would read like any other regulation found in EASA or FAA books about who can pilot a plane.

Now a 60 euro medical ain't the problem, but i'm still not giving this school my money - literally calling me a smart ass for inquiring. :ok:


Next question - am i inducing correctly out of the above posts that its only this dumb in germany?

mad_jock
2nd May 2013, 16:25
Pretty much but you will find some schools that will do it.

As you know you need a license to go for a dump in Germany so expect the rules to be interpreted differently where ever you go. But they will not budge if they think the rule meant in a certain way.

Cobalt
2nd May 2013, 22:43
The fundamental question - whether Germany can make additional requirements that are not contained in EASA regulations - will keep lawyers busy for some time...

mad_jock
3rd May 2013, 03:03
its interpretation.

They say that unless you have a medical your not part of a training course and if its not a training course its subject to A to A AOC public transport flight rules.

They have always been a bit funny about the medical side of things in all walks of life.