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PingDit
22nd Apr 2013, 11:46
I think we need to pay these people a 'visit'!

BBC News - Pensioners should pay more tax, argues Fabian Society (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22220345)

Ping

Checkboard
22nd Apr 2013, 11:54
By the time I am a pensioner (15 years), I am sure they will :(

PingDit
22nd Apr 2013, 11:56
Not if I'm still alive we won't! :}

Blacksheep
22nd Apr 2013, 12:30
I don't know where all these "wealthy" Baby Boomer pensioners are supposed to be. I'm still working full time because i can't afford to live on my pension - thanks to Gormless Gordon and his Chief Economic Adviser at the Treasury - "Mad-eye" Balls. So, I'll stop paying tax at the same rate as everybody else when they close the lid on my coffin.

Fabian Society? Damn their non-Marxist evolutionary socialist principles. Socialists are just socialists - thieving bastards with their hands eternally in the working man's pockets!

Erwin Schroedinger
22nd Apr 2013, 12:47
...should "share the pain of deficit reduction"

No UK citizen 'should share the pain'. The Government and Bank of England caused (and are still maintaining the causes of) the pain. No UK citizen is directly responsible for any of the mess.

They think all UK citizens are stupid. :*

Whereas, in fact, only 99% are stupid. :rolleyes:

VP959
22nd Apr 2013, 13:00
Unless I've seriously misunderstood things, then pensioners seem to pay the same income tax as everyone else, don't they? If there are reduced income tax rates for pensioners then perhaps someone could point me to the details, as looking at my pension statement I seem to have the same tax free allowance and be paying exactly the same rates of income tax as someone who is still in full time employment. The only perks I've found so far are free prescriptions and a bus pass..................

Presumably, the Fabian Society have confused income tax (which pretty much everyone pays if they have an income that's over the tax allowance threshold) with National Insurance. The latter is only payable for a fixed number of years; once you've earned enough "credit" from contributions paid then you no longer need to pay it as a pensioner (although I know of one pensioner friend who does still pay NI, as he worked overseas and missed a number of years of NI contributions).

Curious Pax
22nd Apr 2013, 13:06
Not sure they are proposing what the OP is arguing against. They are basically making the point that there are some extra allowances that pensioners get compared to those of working age. In addition, assuming they are not employed, pensioners have the advantage that their income doesn't have National Insurance deducted. Double win for pensioners!

I don't think that there should be an extra 'pensioner tax' to compensate for the National Insurance issue (no political party has such a death wish!), but I can see a case for means testing some of the other benefits.

Of course over the next 75 years the proportion of pensioners with a comfortable final salary scheme income, and a house with the mortgage paid off will reduce, so any benefits to the Exchequer will be temporary.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Apr 2013, 13:21
I don't know where all these "wealthy" Baby Boomer pensioners are supposed to be.
I don' know if there are many of these, but I know some. Including one, working as a freelancer, who uses her taxpayer-subsidised free bus pass to go to business meetings with clients.

Still, that keeps a car off the congested roads, so I guess that's a win even if it is an arguably unnecessary cost to the public purse.

Wingswinger
22nd Apr 2013, 13:46
I don't think that there should be an extra 'pensioner tax' to compensate for the National Insurance issue (no political party has such a death wish!), but I can see a case for means testing some of the other benefits.

I don't agree. After forty years plus of paying tax and NI, the last 23 at the higher rate, not to mention the VAT, fuel duty and Stamp Duty at 4% (twice) on property purchase, I reckon the State owes me. End of.

G-CPTN
22nd Apr 2013, 13:49
Don't forget the 40% Inheritance Tax.

Capetonian
22nd Apr 2013, 14:10
I don't think that there should be an extra 'pensioner tax' to compensate for the National Insurance issue (no political party has such a death wish!), but I can see a case for means testing some of the other benefits.

Let's look at this :

Bill Bloggs works hard all his life and runs a successful business, makes a lot of money, spends a lot of money, employs people, pays a lot of direct and indirect taxes and NI charges, and on reaching retirement age has a cottage in the Cotswolds, a Maserati, a holiday home in Cape Town and a ski chalet in Switzerland, time share in a game reserve in the Masai Mara, and a million or so pounds in investments.
Because he has been provident and successful and has built up a portfolio of assets, he is 'means tested' and will not receive a state pension or anything back from what he's put into the system.

Steven Jones is a bum, never holds a job for more than a few weeks at a time, is in and out of trouble with the law, lives on housing benefits, 'job-seekers' allowance, and tax credits, and has contributed next to nothing in tax and NI charges.
On reaching retirement age, he is going to get the state pension of 120/week, plus various other allowances because he is unable to support himself and and has made no contingency for his old age.

And that's fair?

Punish success and reward failure. Nice!

AlpineSkier
22nd Apr 2013, 14:15
I seem to have the same tax free allowance and be paying exactly the same rates of income tax as someone who is still in full time employment. The only perks I've found so far are free prescriptions and a bus pass..................

Under 65 8,100
65-75 10,500
75+ 10,660

VP959
22nd Apr 2013, 14:17
After forty years plus of paying tax and NI, the last 23 at the higher rate, not to mention the VAT, fuel duty and Stamp Duty at 4% (twice) on property purchase, I reckon the State owes me. End of.

I'm with you there!

The majority of "better off" pensioners that the Fabian Society are referring too will be the same, they will have paid far more into the system over their working lives than many will today. If their aim is to rob pensioners who've worked for years to earn enough to have a fairly comfortable retirement, in order to pay more benefits to the feckless scum who leach from society, then they will find they will have an uphill struggle.

AS: I'm not yet 65, hence the reason I have the same TFA as someone in full time employment.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Apr 2013, 14:19
The principle of the welfare state is to provide for the needy.

Bill Bloggs doesn't need a state pension - I've got no problem with that, and given the amount it pays I doubt Bill has either. The welfare state would have been there if Bill's life hadn't worked out so well, hence the name 'National Insurance'

Steven needs it, so he gets it.

Whether Steven has done his 'bit' or deserves it is a separate question. Government failure to control JSA, etc is the cause of your problem. In turn, no mainstream political party has advocated measures which would likely satisfy you (or me, for that matter). Thus, your problem is with British Democracy. Stand for Parliament, back those who do agree with you and Stand, or emigrate. I went for option 3. Good luck with either of the other two!

AlpineSkier
22nd Apr 2013, 14:19
If their aim is to rob pensioners who've worked for years to earn enough to have a fairly comfortable retirement, in order to pay more benefits to the feckless scum who leach from society, then they will find they will have an uphill struggle.

Why do you think that ? They are doing it bloody successfully at the moment

crippen
22nd Apr 2013, 14:24
The Fabian Society is a British socialist organization whose purpose is to advance the principles of socialism via gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary, means.[1][2] It is best known for its initial ground-breaking work beginning late in the 19th century and continuing up to World War I. The society laid many of the foundations of the Labour Party and subsequently affected the policies of states emerging from the decolonisation of the British Empire, especially India.
Today, the society functions primarily as a think tank .

:E

ShyTorque
22nd Apr 2013, 14:25
My in laws, both professional people in their day, lost their entire pension fund to one of Robert Maxwell's scams. As a consequence of that, and later government pension raids, they both had to work into their very late 70s. My f-in-law never had a retirement and is now deceased. His wife is now in her late 80s, staying out of care and fiercely struggling to get by.

Any further raids on her meagre income, and that of others like her, to fund the folly of successive governments and the greed of bankers turned sour, would be a total travesty.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Apr 2013, 14:31
Agreed Shy, and my sympathies, but the problem lies in what is laughingly called democracy in the UK.

Curious Pax
22nd Apr 2013, 14:42
In an ideal world, that vast majority would probably take the same view as Capetonian on his bum (sorry - couldn't resist!). However looking at the bigger picture, what is the likely result of cutting the lazy and workshy completely adrift at 65 (or whatever the retirement age rises to in the future)? And how do you frame things so that those who have merely been unlucky (ie ShyTorque's in-laws) are not caught up in that?

I'd sooner have taxes keeping bums in beer if it means there is less chance of geriatric mobs of thieves roaming the streets trying to get money to survive that way. I'm not suggesting that bums should live in luxury, but there's a balance to be had I think.

sisemen
22nd Apr 2013, 15:10
We paid our taxes in order to fund our parents' generation retirement. We paid generously all the way down the line.

It's now our turn. Various governments have known since 1945 that there is a bulge in the population statistics. Is it our fault that they have mismanaged by spending our taxes on increasing welfare for previous generations?

Time for the next generation to pay their dues and suck it up instead of whinging - we ain't gonna be around too long so sort out your own future.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Apr 2013, 15:16
Is it our fault that they have mismanaged by spending our taxes on increasing welfare for previous generations?

Yes, because we (i.e. the electorate) all knew it was happening and didn't make an election issue out of it.

In a representative democracy, 'them' (the Government) are 'us'.

It will not change until the electorate really take responsibility for what the Government does.

Whether the general mass of the populous is capable of taking responsibility is another question entirely, and has been debated since democracy was invented.

OFSO
22nd Apr 2013, 15:20
How long until little Cleggy and his band of wets, sorry, "Liberal Democrats" take up this theme and promote it ? Should force their 8% support down another point or so.

Erwin Schroedinger
22nd Apr 2013, 17:05
It will not change until the electorate really take responsibility for what the Government does.

Great stuff! All we need is truly democratic proportional representation (one man, one vote, MPs in proportion to votes cast), plus honestly independent MP voting in the House of Commons (no siding with your Party or succumbing to the Whip), plus manifesto promises kept (not consistently, consistently, consistently broken), plus they listen to us instead of paying us lip service, plus...etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Dream on. :rolleyes:

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Apr 2013, 17:08
Erwin: to be explicit, No, I don't think it'll happen either - not in my lifetime anyway.

Ancient Observer
22nd Apr 2013, 17:09
The Socialist Fabian Society was us pensioners to pay more tax so that Balls and Co can spend it?????

As I keep on saying, the problem with Socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money to spend.

Loki
22nd Apr 2013, 17:13
Quite so

I've already paid more tax....for most of my working life I was in the 40% bracket....I'm only just in the standard rate at the moment with my pension....in 3 years time I'll be back into 40% territory when the state pension kicks in.

I'll give my bus pass back...the winter fuel allowance, and at a push, free prescriptions, but I'm keeping my B&Q diamond card!

fitliker
22nd Apr 2013, 17:34
Someone should send the Fabians a subscription to the Economist.
20 trillion dollars of offshore funds that can legally dodge the tax collectors and the socialist menace want to check the couches of pensioners for spare change.
I wonder what they would do with the trillions of grey ill gotten gains and money that John Le Carre spoke of.
The criminal funds that the socialist cowards would never be brave enough to collect.Picking on old and honest people while the criminal gangs rob and steal pension funds with impunity.

Krystal n chips
22nd Apr 2013, 19:46
" Picking on old and honest people while the criminal gangs rob and steal pension funds with impunity. "

Ah, I see you have noticed the Gov't policies in action then. Well done.

Then we have this creative masterpiece....

" Bill Bloggs works hard all his life and runs a successful business, makes a lot of money, spends a lot of money, employs people, pays a lot of direct and indirect taxes and NI charges, and on reaching retirement age has a cottage in the Cotswolds, a Maserati, a holiday home in Cape Town and a ski chalet in Switzerland, time share in a game reserve in the Masai Mara, and a million or so pounds in investments.
Because he has been provident and successful and has built up a portfolio of assets, he is 'means tested' and will not receive a state pension or anything back from what he's put into the system.

Steven Jones is a bum, never holds a job for more than a few weeks at a time, is in and out of trouble with the law, lives on housing benefits, 'job-seekers' allowance, and tax credits, and has contributed next to nothing in tax and NI charges.
On reaching retirement age, he is going to get the state pension of 120/week, plus various other allowances because he is unable to support himself and and has made no contingency for his old age.


It's difficult, given the previous contributions as it were, to tell if this is a biopic, wishful thinking, a contender for the Booker prize, or a Mail readers view of life....or all of these suggestions combined.

skydiver69
22nd Apr 2013, 20:05
So pensioners should share the pain of the recession. Is this the same group who have already been affected in many of the following ways?

From what I understand the inflation rate for pensioners based on the basket of goods they generally buy, is greater than that of much of the population.

Annuity rates on pensions have been dropping for many years and are set to drop further given the effects of quantitative easing, thereby reducing their incomes.

Many current pensioners would have made contributions into their pensions from earnt and therefore taxed income. They might have received some tax relief but that would have been on money that they would already have paid. Now they pay tax again on the income they have saved.

Interest rates on savings have been dropping ever since the recession started which again affects pensioners.

vulcanised
22nd Apr 2013, 21:32
Never forget one of CMD's first moves against pensioners was to take away the 50 heating assistance we had been given.

I won't.

Mr Optimistic
22nd Apr 2013, 21:39
Well with two children in their 20's I worry about their future and the source of their sense of hope. Happy that any concessions to pensioners are re-examined. Need to look at child benefit for more than 3 children too, and the free at point of delivery principle for the nhs,not least A&E!

Nervous SLF
22nd Apr 2013, 22:01
Well there is a certain city in the UK where a business that has changed hands several times after going into and out of administration.
So often in fact over the last few years that I have lost exact count but I think it is about 3. Anyway these companies have gone owing at least
a total 150 Million GBP to local business, charities and including at least 30-35 Million to H.M.R.C. If these businesses had been able to continue
and so pay tax added together with the amount owing to H.M.R.C. then think how much that would help pensioners.
Oh yes I have to say that the latest version of this company has said it will pay 500,000 shared out to those that were owed the 150 Million.

ShyTorque
22nd Apr 2013, 22:36
No worries. If you find you can't afford a care home in your dotage, take three speeding points on behalf of your spouse and later admit it to the police. You will end up in a very nice open prison, everything taken care of for you.