View Full Version : ALPA guys to stop flying until they are allowed to carry a gun!
Just got wind of this rumour, I thought you guys in might be interested in it.
Roadtrip
7th Oct 2001, 20:20
Not even good enough to be a rumor. It's BS.
ironbutt57
7th Oct 2001, 23:21
Somebody broke wind maybe....and they're full of poo-poo....
I does seem the worst time to stop flying, however ALPA (from what I have seen, which is not much but still) gets what they want.
Roadtrip
8th Oct 2001, 02:20
The pilot unions in the US don't count for anything with the FAA. The companies control the FAA. Right now, companies have declared national emergencies and are in the process of disregarding no furlough agreements, etc. You're assuming the pilot unions in the US have alot more clout than they really have.
SKYDRIFTER
8th Oct 2001, 07:06
Roadtrip -
You could not be more correct. As to the FAA & the companies.
Image aside, what is recommended when the ammo is gone, but there are more terrorists? Securing the cockpit seems to be the simplest answer; it's not all that diffficult.
An interesting read on the subject of cockpit security is at -
www.webpak.net/~skydream/ad911.htm (http://www.webpak.net/~skydream/ad911.htm)
AAL_Silverbird
8th Oct 2001, 07:46
Pilots threaten to stop service if kept unarmed
By: KATHRYN MARCHOCKI Union Leader Staff
Commercial airline pilots will be asked to suspend air service if they cannot have trained, armed pilots in the cockpits, a New Hampshire pilot said.
A resolution that will be circulated among the various councils of the 67,000-member Air Line Pilots Association this month asks federal regulations be changed to allow for the voluntary arming of flight crew members, Robert Giuda, a United Airlines captain of Warren said.
"Had we had armed pilots on Sept. 11, we wouldn't have the horrific tragedy that we're dealing with at this point?" Giuda said of the four hijacked jetliners.
Pilots would first get training in firearms by the FBI and would use their weapons only to defend against an attempted breach of the cockpit, the resolution said.
The resolution also calls for federal licensing of pilots to carry concealed weapons and for the government to indemnify air carriers and their employees against the legitimate use of a firearm.
If those steps are not carried out, the resolution calls for "a national suspension of air service, at such times and in such manner as is deemed appropriate by the leadership of the Air Line Pilots Association."
"We're hearing members of Congress say they don't want a bunch of armed hooligans running around." said Giuda, a New Hampshire state representative.
He said there was "no more professionalized, highly-scrutinized group of people in the world than airline pilots."
The security of the flight deck cannot depend solely on armed sky marshals, he said.
Sky marshals can be picked out of a crowd and, if overpowered, would provide a hijacker with a weapon, Giuda said.
"It's time to throw the gauntlet to the mat. We are going to get politicized into unarmed cockpits and then we'll get shot with the guns the marshals used because they will be taken away from them," he added.
Arming pilots introduces the element of "risk, fear and doubt" into the mind of a potential hijacker, he said.
Click Here (http://www.theunionleader.com/Articles_show.html?article=5752&archive=1)
[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: AAL_Silverbird ]
^^ Thanks for posting that!!
Budgie69
9th Oct 2001, 01:42
Apart from the armed forces/police handguns are mainly used by drug dealers and bank robbers - mind you I suppose weapons training could provide a useful second income if you get furloughed.
EL AL PILOTS ARE NOT ARMED
Roadtrip
9th Oct 2001, 02:16
Skydrifter -
A secure/hardened cockpit door is essential, and no weapon will replace that. It just augments it. The hardened door hopefully would prevent entry totally, but armed pilots would be there in case it was breached, as a last line of defense.
Just today there was another case of a 25-30 year-old psycho case busting down the cockpit door in flight and was assaulting the copilot. Luckily he was physically subdued by some pax. The operative word there is "luckily." Next time we might not be as "lucky" and we'd have a another 11 Sep. Ask the pax on-board that flight if they think pilots should be armed.
And BTW, 2 F-16s intercepted the plane. Guess what they were there for, just in case?? Hint - it wasn't for navigational support.
What to expect out of the FAA? -- Arm pilots for last ditch cockpit defense?, Mandate hardened cockpit doors before aircraft are returned to service? Profile potentially dangerous passengers? Not allow persons with histories of paranoid psychosis on board aircraft?
Bet not.
Bet they do NOTHING except increase the number of fighters available to shoot down the airliner and kill all the pax, crew, and oh yea, the hijacker.
Tripower455
9th Oct 2001, 03:38
Bet they do NOTHING except increase the number of fighters available to shoot down the airliner and kill all the pax, crew, and oh yea, the hijacker.
They ARE making me remove my laptop from my roller bag, and sending it through the X-Ray machine separately (to increase the possibility of damage and theft!) and I also had to remove my wallet before going through security in PDX a few days ago. See, the X-RAY machine doesn't work as well if the PUBLIC standing in line can't see the computer! We are MUCH safer with our personal property (wallets and computers) sitting unnattended on the belt while the anal probe is inserted!
All of this under the watchful eye(wash!) of several M-16 toting National Guardsmen.
Do they give out emmy awards to us for performing in the GREATEST SECURITY SHOW ON EARTH? :rolleyes:
Just a warning I know at LAX people are getting things stolen when going throw the x-ray machine (a guy I meet had $400 taken out of his wallet!). Becareful!!
There is an interesting thread on the "Bluecoats" forum dealing with the 3 "I"...
1. Ignorance
2. Incompetence
3. Insanity
Basically this is how the authorities are dealing with this situation, how reassuring....
Meanwhile, in the real world, the airlines are going broke and why??
Because we are scaring our passengers to death...
SKYDRIFTER
9th Oct 2001, 07:07
Roadtrip -
I saw the news just after posting. I don't like being treated as though a prisoner, but I'm sure everybody remembers that PSA Bae-146 that the gunman took out the cockpit & took the plane in. 1987, I think.
It's not as though this has never happened before.
Following the Alaska 261 disaster, another sky-rager nearly took out the sister-flight at San Francisco. Still, nothing was done - especially by the FAA.
I have a friend who is a former FAA security type. He advises that the guy the FAA let go was honestly trying to do his job, but was restrained from upstairs.
Funny how Garvey still has her job.
All the armoured cockpit door will do is prevent the terrorists from crashing the aircraft into their target of choice.
What do you think the terrorists are going to do when they find they cannot get into the cockpit, return to their seats and have a nice cool glass of milk while you take them to the nearest FBI unit?
Get real. When they cannot take control of the aircraft their second choice will be to cause it to crash rather than be taken alive. You and your passengers will be just as dead as if you had gatecrashed a party at the White House. In my opinion, the firearm on the flight deck is there for just this situation. When all else fails and everyone on the aircraft is going to die in any case losing a few passengers to stray rounds to save the rest, though tragic, is sensible and justified. (After all, the government thinks losing everybody to a fighter is justified to save their back-sides).
Tripower455
9th Oct 2001, 07:53
I saw the news just after posting. I don't like being treated as though a prisoner, but I'm sure everybody remembers that PSA Bae-146 that the gunman took out the cockpit & took the plane in. 1987, I think.
If you also recall, that gunman was a disgruntled GROUND OPS type......NOT a pilot! Guess who is STILL not required to go through security! :confused:
This has been a pet peeve of mine since the feds have made ME (a pilot) submit to security screening as a response to that incident (caused by a ground ops guy!)! :mad: