You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....

[Roland Pulfrew]

..... Your shiny new fighter aircraft have to be trailed around the work by someone else's tanker force. (RAF News Friday 12 Apr 13. Italian AF KC-767 trail 1 (F) Sqn to Malaysia). :rolleyes:

[CoffmanStarter]

Props start falling off basic trainers :uhoh:

Three successive graduations from RAF Cranwell that didn't include a single pilot :(

[Sun Who]

You don't have an airborne jamming capability.
You don't have an MPA capability.
You don't have a CSAR/TRAP (or credible PR) capability.

To name but 3.

Sun:{

[Willard Whyte]

Ahh, but you do have lots and lots of senior officers, who's job titles are a string of meaningless letters, and must therefore be very important.

[NutLoose]

Ahh, but you do have lots and lots of senior officers, who's job titles are a string of meaningless letters, and must therefore be very important

Sounds like a Third World African State, remember the bling, they need lots of bright gold braid and lots of tinware, they need to look important even if they have nothing to command...

[Cows getting bigger]

Wednesday afternoon sport stopped.
The BBMF is wheeled-out at Air Power demos.
Capability delivery is measured in numbers of bombs dropped rather that tonnage.
FJ pilots started flying fewer hours a month than most people work in a day.

[clicker]

Every aircraft type has its own airfield and there is still room to share.

[Pub User]

Wednesday afternoon sport stopped.

When did it start?

[tomdocherty72]

Get some time in Pub User!

[tomdocherty72]

When far too many of the stations you were posted to are now closed as RAF bases:

Swinderby
Kinloss
Finningley
Gutersloh
Aldergrove

That's just 29 years of my RAF life down the drain!

Not closed - Odiham (dump)
Benson (Not bad)
Shawbury (Pretty good)

Ho hum?

[Maxibon]

You openly brag on the Defence Intranet about how you feature in the top 57 of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, & Transgender Employers in the UK.:D

[charliegolf]

Not enough for BEagle to moan about!:ok:

CG

[MAD Boom]

There are more ATC Cadets than Airmen.
Most of your commanders only have Jubilee medals.
Additional duties take priority over flying.

I could go on..............

[sycamore]

...there are probaly fewer `active` pilots in the RAF now, than the number of Squadrons we once had....

[Willard Whyte]

Ahh, but you do have lots and lots of senior officers, who's job titles are a string of meaningless letters, and must therefore be very important

Sounds like a Third World African State, remember the bling, they need lots of bright gold braid and lots of tinware, they need to look important even if they have nothing to command...

quod erat demonstrandum

[Lonewolf_50]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....
You are in the RAF.

The RFC was a better outfit, by far.

Just ask Biggles, the Professor, and Algy. :ok:

[orca]

You know you are third rate when you bring a 5th Gen fighter into service thereby giving you some form of first day punch. Thus elevating you from the fourth rate service you were prior.

To be second rate you have to be able to find a warship and sink it.;)

[Secret1]

.

And you award pilots wings to people who don't actually fly aeroplanes. :eek: :ugh: :mad:
.

[Nimbus20]

..when you actually worry about silly articles submitted by retired officers and devote threads to refuting them - rather than giving Sharkey (OOps I mentioned the evil entity) a patronising ignoring.

[dmussen]

Well folks,
It sounds like things are pretty 'Crook in Tularook'. Same gig in Aus.
Lots of brass and no kit. I am long out of the service (1974) but we did have three Sqns. of Victor tankers. One enjoyed servicing 'Frightnings, Buccs, Jumpers, Vulcans, Chocolate Bombers, Tombs and our NATO cousins.
Chins up and have a fine English ale. I shall be at Duxford in July doing same.
I am addicted to Spits, Hurris et al.
BBMF with 6 merlins at one hit. Beautiful.

Per Ardua ad Everything,

D.

[Red Line Entry]

Thank goodness most of you miserable lot are out!

I was going to launch into a diatribe about how the vast majority of those I work with are still up for it, but you know what? I get the feeling it would a waste of time.

Crack on...

[BEagle]

1. It has more capability gaps than capability.
2. It can't afford its own elementary training aircraft.
3. The rented elementary training aircraft fall to bits.
4. It can't afford to train its own QFIs.
5. It can't afford practice weapons for trainee fighter pilots.
6. It took the scrapping of its maritime role without a murmur - instead of Air Staff resigning en bloc.
7. It took the scrapping of its V/STOL role without a murmur - instead of Air Staff resigning en bloc.
8. It contracted its primary AAR needs to a civilian service company which has yet to acheive any AAR service.
9. It had to go cap in hand to MCCE to find some foreign tankers to take its whizzy new fighters on a simple 4-leg trail.
10. It can't afford military hospitals. Or bands... Or squadron events in the Officers' Mess.
11. It can't afford 'Air Clues' and its own newspaper is riddled with errors and inaccuracies.
12. It has all but stopped recruiting.
13. It "Hears what you say", but does nothing "Because there's no money". Or should that be 'will'?

[Big Bear]

You think that doing Electronic Warfare properly is just TFD :sad:

Bear

[High Average]

When more emphasis is put on running between two orange cones in a gymnasium every six months, rather than providing the resources to give us serviceable aircraft to do our job in.

[teeteringhead]

When all officers below CAS have to justify - in writing - on each occasion - why they need a driver for a service vehicle and don't self-drive.

(You heard it here first). :(

[staircase]

During war studies at Sleaford in the late 1960’s, we were given the definition of a third world defence force.

It was one with more air marshals than squadrons, more admirals than ships, and more generals than regiments…..

[Martin the Martian]

Are the Tutors still grounded?

[minigundiplomat]

....when they change the logo and brand identity.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

There is only one thing that marks an Air Force as Third Rate, and that's losing....

...and there's only one way to know that for sure, but by then it's too late to fix the problem.

The question is, are the threats less credible than the Air Force?

[Roland Pulfrew]

RLE

I'm still in. I'm still "up for it". I still find it a huge embarrassment that a once capable Air Force has to borrow tankers from another Air Force because the replacement for its own capable but old jets has failed to provide what it was contracted to do. Has to hire its training aircraft. Basically is a shadow of its former self:(

[Wyler]

....When there are 16 E&D nominated personnel at one training establishment..
....When 80% of work is done on a simulator..
....When a reunion has to held in a local Hotel because the Mess is 'too expensive'..
....When 65% of service personnel at a single unit cannot pass their basic fitness test..
....When the above are'nt challenged because they run to one of the 16 E&D types...
....Pamphlets are constantly produced covering everything from 'Air Power' to 'How to talk to Minorities'..
....A standard Flying Programme today would have been classed as insufficient for trg purposes less than 10 years ago...
....A cancer of meaningless Management Speak..
....Bosses more focused on getting their MA than leading their people..

Jeez, I'm getting old....time for my nap.:sad:

[Lightning Mate]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/RAFroundel_zpsc46b5de4.jpg

[simon brown]

"Per Ardua ad Astra" describes the Air force nicely then

Perhaps it should now be "Per Ardua ad Firma"

[Party Animal]

RLE

I'm still in. I'm still "up for it". I still find it a huge embarrassment that a once capable Air Force has to borrow tankers from another Air Force because the replacement for its own capable but old jets has failed to provide what it was contracted to do.

RLE

I'm still in. I'm still "up for it". I still find it a huge embarrassment that a once capable Air Force with the worlds best MPA aircraft and crews has to beg for MPA from our Allies because the requirement and need hasn't gone away and we're still an island race with SSBN's to protect! :(

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

People would rather leave the Service at their option point than accept promotion.

[CoffmanStarter]

When anything to do with Personnel is referred to as a Human Resource issue :ugh:

[Willard Whyte]

I doubt if many of the RAF Police recruits at the station were any wiser than moi.

I doubt whether many of the RAF police recruits were wiser than anyo...

Oh just too easy!

[Wensleydale]

Per Ardua ad Astra


This is why we have those bl**dy awful diesel estates!

[rolandpull]

.....you rely on the TOTAL manning of the RN to help fill up Old Trafford. We filled it by ourselves in 1979.

[Courtney Mil]

The circuits and the LFAs are empty.

[ICM]

Oh dear! It appears that things are not as once they were in 19xx (name your year) when we were younger ..... with our elders telling us how much better it was some 20 or 30 years earlier still. So, perhaps most respondents thus far would be content to see the '100 Year Experiment' end at midnight on 31 March 2018, with the seemingly lamentable assets that remain returned to the RN and the Army whence they came? If so, there are plenty of folk out there who will be happy to assist ... and that would ease everyone's minds on the issue of Air Power league tables.

[TEEEJ]

Roland Pulfrew wrote

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....

Your shiny new fighter aircraft have to be trailed around the work by someone else's tanker force. (RAF News Friday 12 Apr 13. Italian AF KC-767 trail 1 (F) Sqn to Malaysia)

We signed up to MCCE so why not use it?

https://www.mcce-mil.com/Pages/default.aspx

https://www.mcce-mil.com/SiteAssets/Pages/default/MCCE%20AAR%20Article.pdf

The Italian KC-767s were recently cleared so it is an excellent work out for the crews.

The European Defence Agency (EDA) will in the next months organise a European-wide collective air-to-air refuelling (AAR) clearance trial for Italy’s Boeing KC-767 military aerial refuelling and strategic tanker aircraft. The trial is part of EDA’s efforts to address Europe’s AAR capability shortfall.

Aerial Refuelling Clearance for Italian KC-767 (http://www.eda.europa.eu/info-hub/news/2013/02/08/aerial-refuelling-clearance-for-italian-kc-767)

[ACW599]

When the language of middle-management stakeholder capitalism (what BEagle memorably referred to as "wankwords") is persistently used instead of clear, simple and direct English.

For instance, I was advised by a squadron leader admin the other day that a small item of works services which would take one man with a screwdriver about ten minutes could not be carried out because "...Stakeholders have not agreed a budget going forward and consequently a timeframe and workscale cannot be identified at this point in time".

I rest my case.

[Melchett01]

When the only section on your Station that hasn't had its manpower slashed because of financial restrictions is J8 / Finance.

[Onceapilot]

When we NEED MCCE to achieve (small) core tasks.

How can we have mission statements with BIG targets when there are few assets:confused:.

OAP

[Onceapilot]

I used to think how embarrassing it must have been to our allies when helping them out with capability :ooh:

OAP

[oxenos]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....

Military Aircrew appears in Pprune below French, Spanish, Italian, Freight,Biz Jets, Ag Flying etc. etc etc.

[Pontius Navigator]

When the language of middle-management stakeholder capitalism (what BEagle memorably referred to as "wankwords") is persistently used instead of clear, simple and direct English.

For instance, I was advised by a squadron leader admin the other day that a small item of works services which would take one man with a screwdriver about ten minutes could not be carried out because "...Stakeholders have not agreed a budget going forward and consequently a timeframe and workscale cannot be identified at this point in time".

Clearly there was no service level agreement with Prime for your unscheduled infrastructure modification. You hadn't prepared an acceptable business case nor considered the need for a risk assessment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the last things I did before first retiring was to modify some consoles in Ops. "You can't do that, you need RAFSEE approval" "Watch me."

I got out my power drill and cut neat holes large enough to accept the 13 amp plugs rather than seek RAFSEE approval to dismantle the cabinets first.

[ACW599]

>Clearly there was no service level agreement with Prime for your unscheduled infrastructure modification. You hadn't prepared an acceptable business case nor considered the need for a risk assessment.<

Indeed I had not. Neither had I made a responsive asset projection or scoped out a methodological relative matrix approach going forward.

In view of my omission I shall of course sign out the mess revolver, go behind the hangar and do the decent thing.

[BEagle]

Back in 1980, the sqn boss at Chiv told me to provide a storage system for all the briefing slides.

This was clearly a 'student for a job' approach to an ad hoc non-funded infrastructural improvement.

"Bugger that for a game of soldiers", thought I - and sourced (I think) a Form 6 'Construction Work Order', then off to General Engineering Flight. They agreed they would do the work when they'd finished a couple of other more pressing tasks.

A week later and nothing seemed to be going on. "Why hasn't the slide storage been built yet?", demanded the boss.

"No idea, sir - but I'll chase up workshops and get their estimate", I replied....

Nothing to do with administrivial bull$hit, everything to do with not being used as a slave to the boss's whim.

Sorry Buckers, but at least they did come and build your shelving a week or so later....:\

[Courtney Mil]

In view of my omission I shall of course sign out the mess revolver, go behind the hangar and do the decent thing.

You will find that it's been withdrawn as a cost saving measure.

[Pontius Navigator]

sourced (I think) a Form 6 'Construction Work Order', then off to General Engineering Flight. They agreed they would do the work when they'd finished a couple of other more pressing tasks.

I bet they only agreed to repair the slide storage system albeit from a plank of wood.

I needed a pair or counters in the vault. Workshops were not allowed to make them as that was an MPBW job (plus 49% departmental expenses). They did agree to repair them though.

They repaired the 8x4 hardboard beautifully and finished them in shellac to resist bored aircrew boot scuffs.

I suppose in those days we used our own 'code' words incomprehensible to the civvies. The latter now have their revenge in earth extraction equipments.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To the other list we can add:

No gash hands to do gash jobs.

No GEF to do professional gash jobs.

[BEagle]

You will find that it's been withdrawn as a cost saving measure.

Not so much withdrawn as replaced by a H&S-approved alternative:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Messpistol2013_zpsc04f5507.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/Messpistol2013_zpsc04f5507.jpg.html)

[ACW599]

>You will find that it's been withdrawn as a cost saving measure.<

Indeed; the mess revolver is now only supported on a self-help self-provision basis and ammunition is only available via LPO.

I don't want to hijack the thread but when did the RAF succumb to the massive over-use of wankwordage and why? Did it creep in with civilianisation? Is it formally taught as part of what used to be called "Service Writing" at IOT nowadays? If so, why? Does the RN and Army have the same problem?

[cokecan]

oh god yes, bollockspeak is rampant in the Army.

when you talk of going behind a hanger with the mess Webley and 'doing the decent thing', i hope by 'decent thing' you mean shooting the S/L involved...

[Pontius Navigator]

I think it was around 1989 with the NMS and Cost Centre Codes. Followed around 1993-4 with service Level Agreements* (small 'S' though that was not apparent at the time').

*SLA, wtf. If we requested another section to provide a new Simulator tape they agreed that they would produce said tape in normal process in 21 working days. For our part we had to agree to provide the tape script, error free, whereupon they would agree to accept the work.

[E L Whisty]

I always thought it started with the graduate entrant scheme. This was swiftly followed by the perception that military service is a career.

One of the consequences of the pay rises, it seemed, in 79 / 80s, was that people started getting ambitious.

I am sure that I am in a small minority in thinking that ambition is a corrosive influence in a military service.

Happy to have served in something pretty mighty and with some mighty good people.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACW559
In view of my omission I shall of course sign out the mess revolver, go behind the hangar and do the decent thing.


One hopes you did a risk assessment before commencing.

[Cows getting bigger]

Yes, early 1990s. OCC (or whatever it was called) just after GW1. Lots of us sat around after having defeated ol' Saddam. Some WAAF sqn ldr (we were allowed to be politically-incorrect then) stood up on a Friday afternoon and started telling us all about NMS. I should have read the writing on the wall - it took another 15 years before I woke up.

[Pontius Navigator]

I always thought it started with the graduate entrant scheme. This was swiftly followed by the perception that military service is a career.

One of the consequences of the pay rises, it seemed, in 79 / 80s, was that people started getting ambitious.

You have point, so I would put it at about 1970, single list, spec aircrew, overborne sqn ldrs, the latter thus becoming the de facto base rank with the need to provide meaningful executive posts and the smell of roses.

How could a V-bomber sqn in 1963, with two sqn ldr flt cdrs, 55 aircrew, 8 aircraft, and I don't know how many groundcrew, in 1973 need 5 sqn ldrs, 50 aircrew, one sgt and no aircraft?

[NutLoose]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when......


When your annual Yearbook contains more pages of adverts than it does articles on the RAF.

[Courtney Mil]

I don't want to hijack the thread but when did the RAF succumb to the massive over-use of wankwordage and why? Did it creep in with civilianisation? Is it formally taught as part of what used to be called "Service Writing" at IOT nowadays? If so, why? Does the RN and Army have the same problem?

I think it's been creeping in slowly for years. It started out becoming popular amongst those that were lucky enough to work in what was then called Main Building and was a 'must-have' fashion accessory for everyone wanting to pass Staff College. It became a badge to be worn to distinguish those that were going places from the rest. All very sickening.

I remember picking up a senior officer at the AWC for saying, "Others may not have had visibility on it." What does that mean?

[Pontius Navigator]

And PIs - do you still have performance indicators?

We had 3 IIRC - economy, efficiency and something else. Our airship could then be presented with a set of number - decimal numbers below one AFAICR.

Now it came to pass in the December when the RAF was gearing up to its first war of the decade and simultaneously enjoyed a 3-week peace dividend holiday (go figure) that our efficiency score was low (big number?) as we had few flying hours and failed to reach our target flying rates. However our economy rating was superb. Our POL consumption figures were excellent, heating, lighting and water usage was similarly very low too.

Go figure.

[27mm]

When LGB ceases to mean Laser Guided Bomb, but Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual.........:ugh:

[CoffmanStarter]

For those that aspire to great things at high level both in the Military and Civvy Street ...

I give you the ...

Management Wankword Generator (http://www.stickings90.supanet.com/pages/buzzword.htm)

Use at least three times a day and strategically use output in all firms of communication ... especially when interacting with your superiors :ok:

[goudie]

Management Wankword Generator

In the late '60s I read an article in Time Magazine regarding meaningless phrases.
It was written by a Canadian journalist who had been reporting on a politician, during his election campaign.
He realised that in his (long) speeches the guy didn't actually say anything meaningful.
Picking out meaningless words the guy had used, the journalist came up with a three column list of about thirty of these words. By inserting any one word from columns 1, 2 and 3 at various points in a sentence, transformed the sentence into an impressive but meaningless phrase.
The practice has been around for a long time!

[Rocket2]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when......

You find that the long awaited Gazelle replacement turns out to be a Scotts-Bell 47

[Marcantilan]

When LGB ceases to mean l@ser Guided Bomb, but Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual.........:ugh:

Brilliant!

[Courtney Mil]

And PIs - do you still have performance indicators?

I always thought a PI was a Practice Intercept. In the days when doing the job in the air was considered more important than everyone being a 'manager'.

[Pontius Navigator]

Courtney, I hope I have broadened your wankword database continuum.

Marcantilian, regrettably that was no joke. I once read an invitation for LGBT which appeared absolutely ideal as I ran a bombing range. I contacted our local armourers when confusion reigned as there was no such training.

Only later did we discover what it referred to as there had been no sexplicit information in the invitation.

[Captain Radar....]

from the RAF Waddington air show website....


ROYAL AIR FORCE



E3D Sentry 8 / 54(R) Sqn, RAF Waddington (S)
Sentinel R1, 5(AC) Sqn, RAF Waddignton (S)
Typhoon FGR4, 41(R) Sqn, RAF Coningsby (S)(P)
Hawk TMk 1, 100 Sqn, RAF Leeming (S)(P)
Tornado GR4 x3, 617 Sqn, RAF Lossiemouth (S)(P)
Hawk T Mk1A, 208(R) Sqn, RAF Valley (S) (P)
Typhoon FGR4 3(F) Sqn, RAF Coningsby, (S) (P)
Typhoon FGR4 6 Sqn, RAF Leuchars (S) (P)

[Captain Radar....]

The number of frontline fast jet types being displayed is..................one

[BEagle]

When LGB ceases to mean l@ser Guided Bomb, but Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual........

And EO Trg doesn't refer to electro-optics, it refers to official political correctness and the avoidance of thoughtcrime.

Some old boot and a shiny-faced zealot appeared on our squadron to deliver the ridiculous EO video and lecture. They waited in the crewroom and nosed through 'King and Country', which our resident humourist had amended to include suitable captions. Under a picture of an RAFP rozzer talking to a couple of black chaps in a Belize Defence Force Land.Rover was the caption "Your car, is it sir?".

"You see, you see - just the sort of prejudice we're trying to stop!", squeaked the idiot zealot.

"Well, just who do you think is having the pi$$ taken?", he was asked. "Can't you see it's the cop, not the lads in the wagon?".

It got worse in the brief, when they mentioned some ridiculous trophy to be awarded to the top 'visible ethnic minority' of the year. "Not so much Top Dog as Top W*g", someone quipped. "Hey - I'm an African who happens to be white", said our resident Yarp. "WTF is a 'non-visible' ethnic minority?".

The 2 pratts then quit the fix mumbling all sorts of complaints, but we weren't bothered again with another such cr@p session.

EO nonsense - I was given a certificate of completion and hunted high and low for a pink, fluffy frame in which to mount it.....:rolleyes:

[CoffmanStarter]

BEagle I have it on good authority that a visit to Hobbycraft will provide you with all the components you need to fabricate a Pink Fluffy Frame :cool:

[clicker]

You have a hanger queen on the squadron but no aircraft to use the parts on.

[BEagle]

BEagle I have it on good authority that a visit to Hobbycraft will provide you with all the components you need to fabricate a Pink Fluffy Frame

Been hanging out with some of Jimmy Savile's cronies at the local toyshop again, have you Coff....:eek: ??

[60024]

And not just PIs - we have KPIs now........:ugh:

[dragartist]

This has made me chuckle. Some of you who know me will not be suprised:

I applied to attend the LGBT forum one year. my application was turned down. I considered raising a grievence on grounds that I was being discriminated against. there was not a similar forum for us stright guys. As a P take I always had a supply of their leaflets on my desk that I had picked up on my visits to Main Building. I just fancied a few days in a 4* hotel in town (or brighton) on Her Maj! If I had been a bender I could have gone.

I came close to setting up my boss in preparing a management ballanced scorecard slide (Does that qualify for a wankword?) the topic was parachute disposals. some will know we had Pink and Blue 28 ft utilities left over from Arneham to dispose of. I suggested we required a policy decision from the LGBT Forum to determine which ones should be retained. The answer should have been the Rayon ones but the cotton ones were easier to repack! Fortunatly or unfortunatly she was sharp enough to ask what the LGBT was and had the slide amended. we did have a laugh about it in the office. I think some of the Airships from Town, HW and ABW may have seen the joke. At the time I was desperate to give them an excuse to sack me! It took me almost a year after that.

Anyway if we go on as we are it will soon be compulsary.

[NutLoose]

Courtney, I hope I have broadened your wankword database continuum.

Marcantilian, regrettably that was no joke. I once read an invitation for LGBT which appeared absolutely ideal as I ran a bombing range. I contacted our local armourers when confusion reigned as there was no such training.

Only later did we discover what it referred to as there had been no sexplicit information in the invitation.

I would imagine that particular course would be a right pain in the butt.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

only if you didn't have the brains to dip yourself in chocolate and head for the 'L' 'workshop'.:E

[NutLoose]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....

You are so short of manning you actually have to use Flight Sgt's and Sgt's to bolster the parade ranks..



http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/7EF02C70_5056_A318_A860904AB1CBED1A.jpg

Halton March for Freedom of Aylesbury Vale (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive.cfm?storyid=7F338A14-5056-A318-A8C28D4C5687B3EB)


Btw

Freedom of Entry to the town of Wendover, this allows RAF Halton troops the permission to march through the town with bayanets fixed.

RAF/MOD Crown Copyright 2013

[TBM-Legend]

Love the Warrant Officer's new version of a salute. Been watching to many US movies!

[ACW599]

>One hopes you did a risk assessment before commencing<

I did, and came to the conclusion that there might be an irreversible paradigm shift, that it might lead to a world of hurt and that I didn't want to die in a ditch over it. I also thought there might be a few potential poo traps and couldn't evaluate the flash-to-bang time to within an order of magnitude. Also (blah, blah, zzzzzz, cont p94)

[2Planks]

Bring back the days of straightforward speaking (easy for a Yorkshireman) and (IIRC) Accuracy, Brevity, Clarity were the three tenets of service writing. - Oh and the first definition in the OED was the only acceptable one which made:

Boss - An Ornamental Knob
Career - To hurtle down hill out of control.

There, I think that provides sufficient granularity to the stakeholders :)

[Just This Once...]

You know when you are a 3rd rate air force when…

You buy 7 expensive but highly capable E-3D aircraft and use them extensively from ISD. Having embarked on a unique op that has less need for them you ignore recent history or growing troubles around the world that would make them essential again you decide to:

- Take one of the youngest E-3s in the world out of service
- Put it in one of the few large aircraft hangars you have left
- Pay someone to take it apart
- Pay them to produce a report to tell you what age-related problems this young aircraft has
- Announce to other E-3 operators that you will have ageing aircraft data on an aircraft that is less than half the age of theirs
- Hope that said operators don't laugh at you in public
- Belatedly wonder why you built and aircraft only to destroy it for a science experiment
- Wonder why you have less E-3s on the flying programme than you did before
- Wonder why it does not seem to have saved any money at all

Oh and manage to achieve all this whilst the RN are forced into a 4 year+ capability holiday for their only organic early warning aircraft.

:(

[PARALLEL TRACK]

Third rate at best. The RAF started to fall apart in the late 90s when it started to reward so-called leaders who have their statistics in order, rather than promote the risk takers or good aviators. There are far too many senior officers who simply cannot lead effectively either on the ground or more importantly in the cockpit. It is prevalent right to the top. Senior officers acting like politicians! There is still a lot of talent at the coalface but it is being stifled.

[Jimlad1]

"The RAF started to fall apart in the late 90s when it started to reward so-called leaders who have their statistics in order, rather than promote the risk takers or good aviators. "

And yet that same generation of leaders and their successors have managed to ensure the RAF has been able to deliver outstanding success in pretty much continuous high intensity operations thousands of miles from the homebase since 2001.

Since 1999 the RAF has been delivering airpower in every concievable form, often at great distance and in incredibly difficult surroundings. The aircrew and ground crew have worked harder than ever, their efforts have helped ensure some phenomenal successes and in OP ELLAMY a near text book example of the value of deployed airpower acheiving success at very short notice.

The RAF that so many here seem to slag off is one which has at its heart a group of people who have spent the best years of their careers progressing through the system and ensuring that despite incredibly challenging financial circumstances, the RAF has been able to ensure mission success. The same people who do this are the ones who people are quick to slag off for turning it into a third rate airforce.

I'm not RAF, but I do work very closely with members of the service from SNCO - 2* level on a daily basis. At every level I meet individuals who are hugely proud of what they do, passionate about delivering the best they can for their service and country, and who have incredible tales of what they have been up to for almost their entire careers. I am fed up of people sitting here sniping from the outside at people who face challenges easily the equal of anything their predecessors encountered, and doing so with great courage, dedication and humour.

Frankly, I look at our Air Force and I feel bloody proud and very lucky to know what good hands it is in today.

[BlindWingy]

You should be proud! They do a tremendous job. But instead of giving them a pat on the back, while picking their pocket, perhaps practical gratitude would make them feel more valued.

[langleybaston]

That's all right then, we can relax.

[PARALLEL TRACK]

Jim Lad 1

I respect your right to express your opinion and some of what you say is correct but nowhere near all of it. We are going to have to differ. I am at the coalface and have been since the early 80s so no sniping from the outside here laddy!

[Lazer-Hound]

"I'm not RAF, but I do work very closely with members of the service from SNCO - 2* level on a daily basis. At every level I meet individuals who are hugely proud of what they do, passionate about delivering the best they can for their service and country, and who have incredible tales of what they have been up to for almost their entire careers. I am fed up of people sitting here sniping from the outside at people who face challenges easily the equal of anything their predecessors encountered, and doing so with great courage, dedication and humour. "

Jimlad, seriously, think about that. Whatever the RAF have had to put up with in recent decades is pretty insignificant compared to what they had to put up with in WW2.

[minigundiplomat]

Parallel track is absolutely spot on - especially with the date.

That's why I eventually left - too many people managing PI's and not enough leading.

There is still a small cadre of excellent leaders and an exceptional base of people - but they manage to achieve stuff despite the 'leadership', not because of it.

[Courtney Mil]

Does anyone really think the standard of leadership is that different today than it has ever been? We've always had people with a variety of strengths and weaknesses - just look at how many have been named here from previous decades, some that have been seriously at fault. The biggest thing now is the lack of funding, the continual squeeze on numbers and equipment and repeated, short-term 'reviews'. The quality of the people doing the job is as excellent as it has ever been, even in the face of fewer flying hours, lacking equipment and the like.

Two things here. First I think you're being very picky in your responses to Jimlad1 who makes, IMHO, a very good point. Second, I think it's all too easy to overlook the excellence. I'm not talking about capability gaps here as I think you need to look elsewhere to find the blame for those.

Let's not confuse political commitment with the excellence of our people - well, as ever, most of them.

[minigundiplomat]

Courtney,

I respect your opinion, but don't agree.

The calibre of people has remained constant, but there has been a marked decline in quality of leadership since the early 90's. PI's, migration of wanqueresque buzzwords and focus on trivia has been the issue. I blame the reporting system which rewards focus on admin and penalises free thought and initiative.

There are still pockets of brilliance, but they are normally short lived before the individual concedes to the inevitable and leaves.

Anyway, I am now a civvy so my opinion isn't really important..... only replied as Parallel Track echoed my long held belief.

[Courtney Mil]

I was about to sat that every generation has tended to think that the leadership in their time is always worse than it used to be. However, I heard a piece on BBC Radio 4 this morning which gave me pause for thought. It used to be that big, non-military organizations looked, occasionally, at the great military leaders for inspiration and lessons in leadership.

Now it seems that the Army's leadership have published a list of just 90 texts for young thrusting officers to read that rather reverses that trend. Now it's the Army looking to the bosses of Microsoft and the England Rugby squad for leadership tips. Where next? The Tescos Management Handbook? Make Your Employees Valued - Excellence at MacDonalds? How We Succeeded - Woolworths at the Top?

[Biggus]

Sir Alan Sugar's ten fundamental principles of war? A right riveting read!

[Heathrow Harry]

It has often been remarked on that when a serious war breaks out most countries discover they have to fire any senior officer over about 45 - they have been fine (maybe) running a peacetime force but just don't have what it takes to fight a war.

keeping your paperwork in order and schmoozing politicians is not a core skill when the bullets start to fly

[Madbob]

You know when we have only a third rate air force when threads elsewhere on PPRuNe read as follows....

RAF hit by £2m bill row | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/4897050/RAF-hit-by-2m-bill-row.html)

£2M is a drop in the ocean in the over all scheme of things and really ought to be seen as a price worth paying especially if it does something to maintain our credibility abroad and with the prospect perhaps of securing the sale of aircraft to a friendly nation.

I can't recall similar noises about deployments, trails and lone rangers all part of "showing the flag" trips by both squadrons and smaller elements in the past. They were pretty routine affairs and nothing to get too worked-up about!

They were also very good at improving morale.....

[N2erk]

ref post 83 and photo thereon: do I see a dark blue chap or two in the ranks??

[Courtney Mil]

If any of them are dark blue, it's no longer considered proper to mention skin colour.

[orca]

I think we might have a case here of perspective.

Just because you are proud to serve, do so with great people and can, if pushed, achieve some startling results - doesn't mean that the service you (in my opinion rightly) display such loyalty to is actually any good when measured against others.

[500N]

N2

"ref post 83 and photo thereon: do I see a dark blue chap or two in the ranks??"

I think yes.

I was wondering that as well.

[CoffmanStarter]

Mind you ... The rot started when this crap was issued in the late 70's ... Bus Conductor anyone :ugh:

http://www.britairforce.com/images/raf_rank_rain_coat.jpg

[500N]

Coffman

Where were they worn ?

[Willard Whyte]

They look like cufflinks.

I know of a couple of chisellers who I could imagine wearing them.

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, on the collar of the flasher mac.

The mac too, fortunately, was short lived.

[500N]

Yes, I think I know what Flasher Mac you are talking about :O

Those "bars" look like something out of a 70's Airline !

[Roland Pulfrew]

N2 & 500N

No reason why there shouldn't be dark blue on parade, Halton does host several tri-service units. Although I do note our dark blue colleague seems to be a little hesitant at being on parade with the light blue by standing 4 inches behind everyone else. Or maybe it's just a military take on that Arabic man woman thing :E. :ok:

[N2erk]

Courtney- thx mate- I never did take the 'PC' long or short course!

[N2erk]

Roland- thx also, learned something.

[500N]

Roland

Thanks. I should have read the article in full and realised it
was RAF Halton and not some RAF only unit.
Looks like a good turn out.

Re the comment by someone re the WO's salute,
cane angle in both photos ?

[NutLoose]

Coff wears those on his pyjamas

[Secret1]

It is rare to see anyone in RAF/Army perform a perfect salute.

Soldiers are the worse, with the fingers often vertical, and the hand invariably 'waving' or 'vibrating'. Looks utterly ridiculous in the extreme :ugh: As for the Ruperts in their bearskins, well they are the absolute worst in the world at saluting and is so comical in many ways. But all rather sad, too, that standards have become so shoddy. :mad:

At least the chaps/chapesses across the ocean have a standard saluting practice.
.

[500N]

Secret

That was mostly the case over here as well but the one
person I always thought you could count on was the
WO / CSM / RSM etc.

After all, they taught and corrected everybody else :O

[CoffmanStarter]

Nutty ... Oh NO he didn't/doesn't mate !!!

[teeteringhead]

You are so short of manning you actually have to use Flight Sgt's and Sgt's to bolster the parade ranks..
... visited a certain RAF College in Lincolnshire the other day - there was an aircrew Flight Sergeant doing the "barrier up - barrier down" bit on the gate......:ugh:

Must be the best paid guard in the business............:(

[Willard Whyte]

Dad's Army - Wiggle - YouTube

[LoeyDaFrog]

@ Candian Wokkadoctor

You have mates who prefered redundancy than sticking it out to an option point

[iRaven]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/7EF02C70_5056_A318_A860904AB1CBED1A.jpg

Poor saluting style and cane all ski-whiff (hint it should be parallel to the ground). It looks like stuff in his lower No 1 jacket pocket and either the rest of the parade are giants or he needs some Cuban heels!

There are some people that are meant for ceremonial and some that are not...oh, I forgot it was OK because we're a 3rd rate Air Force (but if you believe the Chief we're second to none*).

iRaven (who might have imbibed too much red wine)

*Is that because we're in 3rd place, Sir?

[Whenurhappy]

We know we are in a 2nd rate Air Force when...


A 2* has to approve funding for a domestic flight...

...for a routine medical appointment

[Roland Pulfrew]

We know we are in a 2nd rate Air Force when...


A 2* has to approve funding for a domestic flight...



And the flight is cheaper than the equivalent rail journey (by a significant amount) but the rail journey doesn't need 2* approval!! :rolleyes:

[Courtney Mil]

That's nothing particularly new. I had to take a small deligation of staff from HQ 1 Gp to a secret interceptor base on the East coast of Scotland a few years back. Cheapest, quickest option, MT to Heathrow, BA Shuttle to Edinburgh (£56) and a choice of cheap options onward. Budget holder away on leave, so no one to approve the flights. Net result, rail to Scotland instead at £290 a ticket and two extra days out of the office for 4 RAF officers.

:ugh:

[Whenurhappy]

And by the time funding has been approved, the flight costs have escalated...

[BEagle]

How times must have changed....:uhoh: For the worse...:(

Last century, I had to go to Ramstein once for a meeting about a forthcoming exercise - something we could probably have done over the phone in the UK.

A mate (vascodegama) had tipped me off about investigating travel costs. Sure enough, self-drive would be marginally cheaper than train/fly/hire car/fly/train. Even better was running up the blunties' phone bill waiting for proof from the USAF that there was no room at the inn on base either at Ramstein or Wiesbaden, so a local hotel would be on the cards. Then I sorted approval for quickest rather than shortest (which would have taken an extra day, probably...) mileage - and as the conference ended at 1300 on the second day, it was agreed that I could stay overnight on the way home.

So, drive to the Channel Tunnel, then across to Ramstein via France and Germany. 2 nights there, shopping at the BX, a night stop at Reims on the way back, a couple of crates of wine at Calais and home in the early afternoon. Plus lots of Rates a few days later....

Still cheaper than flying....allegedly!

[goudie]

Well we may have a third rate Air Force but the whinging is, as ever, absolutely first rate.
Well done everyone!:ok:

[Biggus]

I wouldn't have described discussing our stupid, and ultimately non cost effective, travel authorization rules as whinging - rather highlighting a fault in the system that needs correcting, not that anyone will bother to listen.

Considering that one of the in vogue buzzwords in recent times was "empowerment" I find the concept of needing a Gp Capt to authorize internal UK air travel, which almost inevitably causes delays which in turn mean the flight costs have risen, often dramatically, both baffling and ultimately self defeating......

[pax britanica]

Excuse a non military type commenting ehre but ebven discounting for cyncism and sarcasm which we Brits are good at it is sad to read what is said about the RAF. It seems to me that after decades of British Industy and Commerce being wrecked by MBAs accountants (sorry I mean Finanace Directors or Chief Financial Officers) the same disease has finally spread to the services.
In industry it is the same- focus on all the minutae and fashionable, speak in riddles (our US cousins invented this trait but they know it is bull**** anyway) use words like accountability to hide from their own responsibilities.

Remove every tiny perk or privilege from the people who do the work while adding more and more for the peopel who 'manage',

Lose the plot on things like cutting back essential training because it is expensive but overlook the fact it is the core of what the RAF does, in fact unless there is war on it is all it does.

So I would not encourage you to all leave en masse as the 'real world' is no better and perhaps even worse.

So could we actually intercept half a dozen bears north of Scotland if the Russians got a bit frisky again or would we need to relay on the USAF and L'armee de l 'air to help out??

God luck to all of you though , you have my respect for what thats worth

[Bannock]

When the USA are concidering putting us in the same league as our "Free loading" NATO neighbours.

America, our great protector, is looking the other way - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10013197/America-our-great-protector-is-looking-the-other-way.html).

[langleybaston]

Apologies if I have said this before, but as a civvy attached almost continuously to the RAF for 41 years, and always a Mess member, I did my best to climb the slippery pole without actually putting a boot on someone's head, in order to get more money, see the world, get more job satisfaction, and more perks.

The slow drain of perks has been going on for ever.

1. c. 1959 a Scientific Assistant [me] got 3 weeks leave. On promotion to Assistant Experimental Officer, leave went to 6 weeks "just like that". In 1960 the rules changed, and a newly promoted AXO [me] got three extra DAYS only, with slow increments like a water drip.
2. After AXO came Higher SO, no more perks, roughly FltLt level.
3. But Senior SO c. 1975 brought 1st class rail travel.
NOT. "Yes the rules say so but we are a bit short of cash so ...... and if you insist you can but I have to notify HQ. But if you make Principal that will be OK".
4. PSO 1980. "Yes, we did say so but absolutely nobody travels first class on the railways, its not done. You did want a Germany tour, did you not?"
5. Germany JHQ 1989. Sort of inferior Gp Capt level ie paid said Mess sub, but that was it apart from a shiny staff car and driver whenever I needed it for off-base. Withdrawn after one year. Self-drive. Then the issue cars got steadily smaller and older. I came home before it was an issue bike, but you get the picture.

Not a whinge, just "it was ever thus", and not just for the RAF.

[NutLoose]

Whenurhappy
And by the time funding has been approved, the flight costs have escalated...


For what it's worth a budget airline that is sadly no longer with us was negotiating a large contract for maintenance which was worth about £10,000,000 to them.
A couple of staff were due to fly out to sign the said deal and meetings were set up, staff travelled down to London to fly out on one of their own scheduled flights and inline with company policy favouring passengers, they were bumped off the flight so Tracey and Dave could fly out on their £5-99 get away. Meetings were rescheduled for the next day and again they were kicked off the flight. In the end the other party flew over.

[Whenurhappy]

On a related matter, for those residing overseas, there is a contractual requirement to undergo resettlement training in...Herford, Germany. Now that's fine if you are a 23 year old soldier wanting to get an HGV licence or do C&G in Bricklaying, but if you are longer in the tooth and professionally qualified, it’s a rubbish solution. Moreover, it’s a bu&&er of a place to get to.

Irrespective of a business case showing that it is cheaper and more efficient to return to the UK and attend resettlement courses at RAF Northolt (or in the City) - and fought and lost at 1* level – the rules state you must go to Herford (or fund your own trip to the UK) because of the contract with the ‘resettlement partner’.

[Wyler]

When, within the next 3 years, over 10% of the remaining RAF will be sat on it's collective arse at High Wycombe.

A Gp Capt for every airframe with still some to spare......

:ugh:

[NutLoose]

It seems to me that after decades of British Industy and Commerce being wrecked by MBAs accountants (sorry I mean Finanace Directors or Chief Financial Officers) the same disease has finally spread to the services

I watched a well known reputable maintenance company go down the Tubes because of accounting, somewhere along the line the accountants had worked out it was cheaper to use contractors on a big 4 engined turboprop that was in for a big check than put their own staff on it, the fact there was only one aircraft in seemed to go over the accountants heads, so their own staff were forbidden to work on it and sat around getting paid to do nothing, whilst the hangar filled up with contractors doing the job instead, thus the company was now paying for two work forces because one was deemed by the bloody accountants to be cheaper..... They didn't last much longer sadly :(

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Oi, my BIL is an accountant CFO,and a damn good one!

mind you, he doesn't like any other accountants

[Courtney Mil]

When, within the next 3 years, over 10% of the remaining RAF will be sat on it's collective arse at High Wycombe.

I totally agree with the point you make, but I hope you meant to type "sitting", not "sat".

[CoffmanStarter]

Mind you, he doesn't like any other accountants ...

F3WMB ... He must have a stunning personality, is quick witted and clearly has wider interests ... so unlike the norm in his profession :E

http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/funny-accountant-nicknames.jpg

Best ...

Coff.

[NRU74]

Courtney M
I'm afraid,that in the last thirty years, the past perfect tenses of the verbs to sit, and to stand, have become sat and stood, rather than sitting and standing.i'd have to concede, though, that language does 'evolve'.

[Biggus]

I believe about 10% of the RAF will soon (already is?) be sitting/sat at the "superbase" that is Brize Norton....




That's 20% down, just 80% to go.....

[CoffmanStarter]

Biggus old chap ... careful you are showing Accountancy apptitude :=

[500N]

Nutloose

That is a sad story, it really is.

[Easy Street]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyler
When, within the next 3 years, over 10% of the remaining RAF will be sat on it's collective arse at High Wycombe.

I totally agree with the point you make, but I hope you meant to type "sitting", not "sat".

CM
I'm afraid,that in the last thirty years, the past perfect tenses of the verbs to sit, and to stand, have become sat and stood, rather than sitting and standing.

"...the RAF will be sitting on its arse..." is actually an example of the future continuous tense. An example of this very form is shown on the British Council website:

LearnEnglish by the British Council - Future Continuous (http://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/grammar-reference/future-continuous-future-perfect)

Now, if we were to look at the future perfect tense, that would be "the RAF will have sat on its arse..."

Take a D. See me. :=

[Willard Whyte]

O.F.F.S.

bloody 10 chars

[NutLoose]

O.F.F.S.


Past or present tense?


:E

[Courtney Mil]

The progressive form of a verb indicates something that was happening, is happening or will be happening. Used in the past, it suggests an activity that was left unfinished or still happening at the time in question. So 'I polished my shoes' suggests that it's done and over, whereas 'I was polishing my shoes' leads one think that in this context that shoe polishing wasn't finished and the sentence is about to move to something else that happened whilst the polishing was going on.

English active progressive verb forms are constructed with the present participle (-ing ending) and not the past participle (-ed ending). Now, the verb 'to sit' is irregular in that its past participle does not end in -ed, it is 'sat'. In other words, you say 'I sat' rather than 'I sitted'. So we use the present participle 'sitting' to construct a progressive verb - 'I was sitting', not 'I was sat'. Similarly, in the present tense don't say 'I am sat'. In the future don't say 'I'll be sat'.

'I was sat' doesn't even sound right, it's affected and it's wrong. What's even worse is that people that should know better are starting to do it, even people on the BBC. I shall be writing a stiff letter (progressive?).

Things are different if the sentence is passive - i.e. something is having something done to it. 'The driver was parking her car' - active progressive. 'The car was parked on the hill by its driver' - passive, no longer progressive so past participle is OK. To avoid the ugliness of 'was parked', why not say 'had been parked'?

[Pontius Navigator]

In other words, having sat it will remain satted (sic) never to move again.

Looking at some trouser seats and wooden chairs of times past that will not be all together new.

Interestingly, if we put an H after the S then the I and the A reverse positions in Courtney's masterly exposition above. I haven't tried all permutations though :)

[vascodegama]

It all went wrong when ISS was scrapped.

[Wyler]

Jeeeez, all I said was..........................:E

[Courtney Mil]

Yeah, I know, Wyler. And, to be fair, your meaning was pefctly clear.

Next week we'll be looking at the use of 'less' and 'fewer'.

:cool:

[Whenurhappy]

Has ISS it been scapped? I was satting at my computer to work on an assignment when I hear that? Is that the absurd person singular?*



*applogies to Alan Aykborne

[langleybaston]

Surely the apostrophe is a more urgent matter?

Wales

The Waleses

Flt Lt Wales's wife

The Waleses' child

Moby Dick

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, Nantucket sleighride.

[ExAscoteer]

Starbuck's sharpening his harpoon...

[Courtney Mil]

Spot on, Buddy!

[Willard Whyte]

You know you've become a 3rd rate air force when people obsess about drunken spelling and grammar when the organisation is going to hell in a handcart.

[Pontius Navigator]

WW beet me too it.

[Party Animal]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....

Once upon a time you used to fly in an aircraft that carried nuclear weapons and you were trained, tested and trusted to carry and drop them in the event of a serious war.

Now, I can't get my new ID card from Handbrake House without handing in my old one because I cannot be trusted to cut the old one up!!!

[Finningley Boy]

When the CDS and other Defence Chiefs advise against attempting a no fly zone over Syria because their Air Defences are of too good a quality.:\

FB:)

[Courtney Mil]

The last two posts there are spot on. It all suddenly looks a bit sad. Hey, but the guys and galls on the front line are still top notch at their day job.

Party Animal, one of the best points seen here to date. :D

[Finningley Boy]

SkyWatch - The Royal Air Force 'in action' - (1974) - YouTube

here's something from the good old days with Raymond Baxxter commentating!

FB

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

You know you have become a Third Rate Air Force when....

....people can come up with 8 pages (& counting:{) of examples of how you have become...etc.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Perhaps another measure is when the opinions of the brown jobs are sought by Parliament, [Serious] Parliament Wants ARRSE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/198483-%5Bserious%5D-parliament-wants-arrse.html) ; whereas....... :(

[Force For Good]

Some flying training units have more foreign students on them than RAF.

[seadrills]

.....you rely on the TOTAL manning of the RN to help fill up Old Trafford. We filled it by ourselves in 1979.

The total manning of the RN would just fill the Stretford end ......aaarrrgh

[Mk 1]

Your hundred mile an hour tape is re-rated to just 60MPH...

Your trusty aircraft doubles in value when filled with fuel...

When your latest high tech piece of nav kit has a windshield mount and the words "Tom Tom" on the back....

[Danny42C]

....they serve food on paper plates in the Mess....

How about banana leaves ?

D.

[gr4techie]

When your latest high tech piece of nav kit has a windshield mount and the words "Tom Tom" on the back....

You're lucky. Some jets are still using a light bulb shining through a microfiche film with a map printed on it! As the jet flies through the air the film is wound.

http://321tigers.org/ecr_tornado/rcp1.jpg

[Just This Once...]

What nation and era is that rear cockpit (looks German)?

[Onceapilot]

Quote JTO:
What nation and era is that rear cockpit (looks German)?

Are you judging German by the Jungen's stopwatch?

OAP

[ShotOne]

Couldn't help noticing there's rather a lot of discussion about gay and lesbian issues here and was afraid I'd inadvertently entered the wrong forum, erm so to speak.

[racedo]

When you reach its centenary and realise that you had more planes and pilots at the start of the Air Force than you have now.

[essexlad]

When promotion is largely decided on whos arse you have kissed, if you play station level sport, are the treasurer of some poncy station club that nobody else on camp knew existed or even cares about its existance, who you got royally screwed over for your own gain whilst pretending to be said screwed over persons best buddy and if your face fits in with all the other 'yes men' Instead of it being based on how good you are at your primary role, whether you have the abillity to lead others or at least the qualities to become a good leader/instructor/manager etc.

[Red Line Entry]

The lads and lasses coming through the training system show the same determination and enthusiasm as the Few

You don't give a monkey's what a bunch of retired old farts on an internet website say.

You're proud to go into work each day because you feel the job you do is a million times more worthwhile than any of your civvy friends.

You're not bitter because you weren't promoted to whatever level your ego thought you had earned.

You know that the capability your sqn can deploy is at least ten times that than was possible a couple of decades ago.

[gr4techie]

The lads and lasses coming through the training system show the same determination and enthusiasm as the Few

You don't give a monkey's what a bunch of retired old farts on an internet website say.

You're proud to go into work each day because you feel the job you do is a million times more worthwhile than any of your civvy friends.

You're not bitter because you weren't promoted to whatever level your ego thought you had earned.

You know that the capability your sqn can deploy is at least ten times that than was possible a couple of decades ago.

You are very naive or you have only been in 5 minutes and not had your pension messed with, your pay frozen (pay cut when you include inflation), allowances removed, seen resources and manpower cut to a fraction it was when you joined.

You're proud to go into work each day because you feel the job you do is a million times more worthwhile than any of your civvy friends.

My civvy friends get paid more for putting up with less s***t than we get.

[Ronald Reagan]

There is nothing left anymore. While the Typhoon is a great aircraft they never hardly actually fly. The same can be said of the GR4. Pilots these days must get hardly any flying hours. Once the F-35 comes along I bet it will never hardly leave the ground either as we will have so few of them, most will be broken most of the time and besides its going to be costly to fly.
That's what is really sad, all/most of the older types have gone but we cannot even afford to fly the new stuff properly. Wonder where the money went that used to be spent on the flying hours for the Jaguar, Harrier, Tornado F-3, Nimrod and Canberra also the money allocated for the flying hours of 13sq and 14sq.

[NutLoose]

When you no longer have the mighty VC 10 as an asset.

[Heathrow Harry]

An ASSET?????? :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[taxydual]

OK, it's from the Daily Mail, but it made me laugh.

Hard-up RAF flies second-hand jets in US air force colours to save £3million cost of repainting them in British colours | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2428912/Hard-RAF-flies-second-hand-jets-US-air-force-colours-save-3million-cost-repainting-British-colours.html)

[racedo]

Mega recession and depression, reduction in military assets....................2008-2013 or 1929 to 1934........

[Melchett01]

OK, it's from the Daily Mail, but it made me laugh.

Hard-up RAF flies second-hand jets in US air force colours to save £3million cost of repainting them in British colours | Mail Online

The last line of that report did make me laugh:

When 51 Squadron personnel begin operating UK Rivet Joint aircraft they will wear RAF flying suits.

Is this something we should be getting excited about? Is somebody in line for a promotion or an OBE for that stunning decision? I think the noise that kept disturbing my concentration as I was reading the article was the sound of the bottom of the barrel being scraped.

[TomJoad]

The lads and lasses coming through the training system show the same determination and enthusiasm as the Few

You don't give a monkey's what a bunch of retired old farts on an internet website say.

You're proud to go into work each day because you feel the job you do is a million times more worthwhile than any of your civvy friends.

You're not bitter because you weren't promoted to whatever level your ego thought you had earned.

You know that the capability your sqn can deploy is at least ten times that than was possible a couple of decades ago.

Well said Red Line, spot on. While a bit of healthy cynicism can be a good thing when it starts to become the default setting you should move on. I used to rail again the perma-cynics who would pop up and berate every thing to do with service life. There has always been reason to criticise at every stage of the RAF's life but you do wonder why these folk don't press to test and just leave. In truth they are the minority, they just like the sound of their own voices. It's folk like you that make the Service, good on you fella.:ok:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Must agree with TJ. I think Red Line Entry makes a sound point and it is reassuring to hear the current members not only defending the RAF but enjoying it and extolling its virtues.
Mind you I detect a little cynicism in the username!
Much of what has been said on this thread also rings true to the many "old farts" like me who believe we enjoyed a far better overall experience than is offered today.

[Willard Whyte]

The lads and lasses coming through the training system show the same determination and enthusiasm as the Few

You don't give a monkey's what a bunch of retired old farts on an internet website say.

You're proud to go into work each day because you feel the job you do is a million times more worthwhile than any of your civvy friends.

You're not bitter because you weren't promoted to whatever level your ego thought you had earned.

You know that the capability your sqn can deploy is at least ten times that than was possible a couple of decades ago. You know you're in a 3rd rate air force when people are blind to reality.

That, and paper plates in the O's mess.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

That, and paper plates in the O's mess.

I'm with you there WW.

[Toadstool]

When we used to worry about how best to lead our personnel, but paper plates have now become the overriding concern.

[Biggus]

RLE said something along the lines of "...The lads and lasses coming through the training system show the same determination and enthusiasm as the Few..."

When one considers that the RAF is still an all volunteer organization it shouldn't be surprising that people going through the training system are committed - after all they wanted the job in the first place! All he is saying is that the training system hasn't put them off - which probably isn't surprising given the difficulty in "chopping" a student these days (96% pass rate at IOT?).

The true measure of the health of the RAF is likely to be in terms of the percentage of people serving the full length of service they joined up for, as opposed to leaving early. What percentage today are serving for their inital 16 years compared to 20 odd years ago. As one example, there is anecdotal evidence on this forum of increasing numbers of pilots leaving after 6 to 8 years - but it is just that, anecdotal.

The true answer no doubt could be found in some hard statistics, if they were actually analysed in the right way. But you know what they say about statistics and lies.....

[Heathrow Harry]

well I think that retention rates mirror the outside world - 40 years ago you joined a company and looked to stay for life - these days if you reckon you can survive three years you're doing well :sad::sad:

[dragartist]

I think you are absolutly correct Harry. I did 35 years in two stints (15 and 14 years) Any civillian job has lasted 3 years maximum. - only 20 months this last one!!

[Courtney Mil]

I did 35 years in two stints (15 and 14 years)
Er, erm, um. What? :bored:

[Heathrow Harry]

He only DID 29 years but it felt like 35??????/ :):)

[NutLoose]

I can understand that, we had a JT that was Q'd / frozen on Nimrod flap repairs and couldnt get off them, so he PVR'd. Having been out for 6 months he missed the place so joined up again, having been promised he wouldn't go back on Nimrods.
The RAF sent him back to Swinditz retaining his JT rank for a quick clothing issue etc ( though not allowed to wear his rank badges until his last day which confused the poo out of them). He then had to go to Halton where they gave him the Tech course final test piece to make which was the picture frame, bearing in mind he had been doing metal repairs for seven years and they gave him a week to make it, he knocked it out in just over a day. They then posted him onto Helicopters for his second career.

[gr4techie]

you do wonder why these folk don't press to test and just leave.

Where I work 270 have pvr'd in 18 months. Approx 35% of the station strength of their trade, 1500 years of experience gone. I believe there was an article in Airclues about it.

[TomJoad]

Where I work 270 have pvr'd in 18 months. Approx 35% of the station strength of their trade, 1500 years of experience gone. I believe there was an article in Airclues about it.

Then they have done the correct thing rather than remain and whinge incessantly. Remaining in service when you are no longer content serves only to depress your own spirit and that of those around you who are retying to get on with their work. Good luck to them, we all have to make such decisions at some point in our careers:ok:

[Courtney Mil]

Yeah, good point, TJ.

[gr4techie]

Watching skilled and experienced guys walk out the door and go work hard for someone else, is not the right answer, it is not the best thing for the RAF. You should be offering these guys incentives to stay.

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when all the skilled and experienced guys have left and you don't have enough left who can do the job. Playing the statistics game and replacing one old sweat with one kid straight out of school, looks good on paper but doesn't work in practice.

[TomJoad]

gr4,

Need to separate the emotional from reality here. Nobody, absolutely nobody no matter what the experience or ability is irreplaceable. Has always been thus and always will be. The RAF has seen such manning outflows before and no doubt will continue to see them in the future. Could they been better managed, most certainly. Are they entirely detrimental to the steady state capability of the service, not necessarily. Whether you like it or not the analogy of the hand in the bucket of water springs to mind. What is certain, is that there remains a greater proportion of folk who are still content, enthused, and happy with their service. The disgruntled just tend to be more likely to voice their opinions.

[Courtney Mil]

...but a HUGE outflow of skill is never good and is, sometimes, a sign of an underlying problem.

[TomJoad]

CM

Agreed, and in the case cited by gr4 it could have been better managed. The underlying problem there I believe was a failure of the manners to manage it to avoid the short term impact that particular outflow had.

[Courtney Mil]

Absolutely.


.

[Melchett01]

TJ,

I have to take a degree of issue with that last post. I will go along with the idea that nobody is bigger than the Service, but to have people walking out of the door in their droves is not good for any organisation. If pointing that out is an 'emotional' response, then simply trotting out the bucket of water analogy is is to stick your head in the sand and hope it all sorts itself out.

To say that the RAF can simply absorb skilled and experienced personnel leaving en masse is way off the mark. I have spent most of the past 3 tours working in an Army dominated environment. They too are seeing people leaving in their droves and it frankly terrifies the manners and the senior planners because they recognise the benefits of having combat experienced personnel in a fighting force. And that is what we are - a fighting force. You might be able to replace a manager or an technical specialist in a civvie company with relative ease, but you cannot do that in the military, because at its core, the military is about people not just equipment and technical skills. It is about how they are trained, lead and their mindset and ethos.

And it is precisely those very specific characteristics that cannot be replaced overnight and have often proven to be battle winning. Just look what happened in 1973 when Syria invaded Israel and had a 10-1 advantage. After a few modest gains the Syrian armoured units were defeated within 3 days and retreated. The Israelis pursued and within 2 days were shelling Damascus. The Syrians were equipped with the latest Soviet armour, anti-tank kit and NVGs. The Israelis were outgunned and being attacked on 2 fronts when their entire reserve contingent were home celebrating Yom Kippur. I would suggest that the Israel's display of commitment and skill was not grown overnight or nurtured by an organisation casually dismissing its people when they walked out of the door, and is precisely the sort of fighting spirit and experience we can ill afford to lose if we are going to downsize. By 2020, our quality really must make up for our lack of quantity.

As soon as any of the Services are seen to be not giving a damn when a pool of experienced manpower leaves en masse, then that Service is in trouble because the leadership at the top has missed a problem somewhere down the chain. You would be treading a very dangerous path to equate the replacability of experienced military manpower with the ease that it is replaced in the civilian world (which although you didn't openly do, I think is the next step in the logic chain of your argument).

[TomJoad]

Mel,

My post 197. I believe we are in violent agreement.

[smujsmith]

Gentlemen,

I would propose that " you know when you're a third rate Air Force when", you have been defeated by an equally third rate organisation. To my knowledge, apart from political attacks, it hasn't happened yet. I believe that something about our traditions and training methods, enthuses whoever is left to do their best, make do and maintain the spirit and traditions of the service. That should stand us in good stead, it can be no fault of the servicemen if political meddling has lead to a smaller force. The demise of the size of our forces is political, not service generated, it should be noted and no excuses accepted when political fingers point.

Smudge

[WannabeCrewman]

When your time *waiting* to train (and not actually training) is longer than any operational career you will ever have.

Personally speaking, I dont hold much allegiance to the RAF these days given the damage my career has suffered as a result - if a better job was offered me this morning, I'd be hitting the PVR button before lunch.

The only thing worse than being told I have to wait years to become LCR is that if I wanted to go, I'd get sweet FA for it. How on earth they ever justified not making a bunch of us redundant in favour of paying £28k + pa as as untrained strength for 3 years I'll never know. That cheque would have set me up nicely in the commercial diving industry, which as I understand, is booming at present...:rolleyes:

[kintyred]

WannabeCrewman, how I sympathise with you. Personnel management has never been a strong suit of the top brass. They'll shaft you, shaft the taxpayer and beggar the defence of the country on the altar of their careers. I'd apologise for going of topic but I fear that the cause of our becoming a third rate Air Force has to be laid at the door of their Airships. WC, you have have put your finger on a root cause. I found my own allegiance waning towards the end as more and more of my job was subsumed under a tidal wave of illogical regulation. Your position is just another example of this intellectually bankrupt organisation.

[TomJoad]

Wannabe you had my sympathy until I read past your 1st line. Listen, nobody owes you a living fella. If you are that discontented with your lot, so convinced of the damage done to your career and so convinced of the value of your innate talent to the civilian market then do yourself and everybody else a favour and leave.:ok:

[NutLoose]

When I joined up I waited from school on the dole for 6 months for my entry and course date to start, what a farce that was, I was sent to interviews and pointed out to those interviewing me that I had my entry date into the RAF, I could not see the point of taking someones possible job, to then leave in 6 months when mine was already sorted, especially when one saw some of the queues. I got accused of timewasting by some interviewers, but pointed out it was the system that made me have to come out to them, not me.
It seems an odd state of affair to recruit people without a current vacancy or course on offer.

[Melchett01]

TomJoad,

You'll have to forgive me if I am talking out of turn - it comes with being a grumpy 2IC - but pretty much all of your recent posts have been fairly critical of individuals who have dared to stick their heads above the parapet and have a harrumph at the way things are spiralling.

Given that PPRuNe's relative anonymity means that this forum is probably one of the only places people can do this without inflicting any last damage on their careers, I'm surprised that you are surprised about such discontent being voiced.

But more to the point, could you tell us which bit of the RAF or Defence you are working in, assuming of course that you are. Because if your bit of the trench is as rosy and as free of criticism as your posts would imply I think there are a lot of people who would like a transfer.

[gr4techie]

Wannabe you had my sympathy until I read past your 1st line. Listen, nobody owes you a living fella. If you are that discontented with your lot, so convinced of the damage done to your career and so convinced of the value of your innate talent to the civilian market then do yourself and everybody else a favour and leave.

TomJoad, you're missing the point... You can earn a better living and have more of a career elsewhere. You'd certainly get messed around a lot less elsewhere and you'd have a better work life balance.
I really don't get this "treat your workforce with complete distain" attitude that some managers in the RAF have.

It would not be doing everyone a favour if even more guys left. Some places are struggling for manpower as it is. That's why there is no 3rd tranche of redundancy.

[Biggus]

TJ is more than capable of answering for himself, however, in the absence of a reply from him, I can say that from comments he has made on other threads he is retired from the RAF, and now firmly established in a second career - teaching.

Without meaning to directly criticize TJ, perhaps it is easier to say "if you don't like it get out" if you have successfully made that move yourself. I believe there was once a famous comment from an RAF 4*, along the lines of "..if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going, then get off at the next stop...". That went down well with the troops!!

I don't know when TJ retired, so I don't know how much experience he had of the most recent straws on the camel's back that is life in a blue suit today.

However, he is quite a prolific poster, so no doubt will be along shortly to reply to people's (including probably mine) comments and correct any misconceptions.

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe that something about our traditions and training methods, enthuses whoever is left to do their best, make do and maintain the spirit and traditions of the service

And this, no doubt, is part of the problem.

Only when it is broke with it been seen by the masters that there is a need to fix it. The RAF needs more of Bader's ilk declaring his sqn non-operational.

Slight thread drift, but how frequently do junior officers, from sqn cdr down meet with senior officers of AOC and above? And I don't mean over coffee at a general meet and greet.

In the 60s no V-force captain was appointed without an interview with his AOC.

[TomJoad]

Melchette, no need for forgiveness - you talk freely, we need more clear speaking here and less double speak. If I have been critical of those "harrumphing" of late then it is borne in part from my own experience. As a FLt Cdr and latterly Sqn Cdr (practice Sqn Cdr I was an Eng O not aircrew) I was often the guy to listen to the "hurraumphs" and while time may have advanced the root of the "harraumphs" remains common - "the service is going in that direction and my personal aspirations/ambitions are pointing in another". It is not a new story, I would be surprised if it is not recognised by every serviceman of any era.

Yeah you got me, my bit of the trench is rosy, I left in 2005. I was serving in the DLO at the time and, just as now, I too was troubled by the divergence of the Service and my own personal needs. Things started to pull in different directions, just as they are doing for many now. And as Biggus noted, I have openly discussed it on the forum, I left and returned to teaching. However, Biggus is wrong where he surmises that the decision was easy. That said, once you openly feel towards the Service, as Wannabe described, then labouring on simply does not make sense. Nor does sitting back passively waiting for something to happen. Especially when you are so convinced of your skills and market value. The changes to the service are profound. No argument there. Yes those changes are causing a lot of personal angst. No argument there either. So, you either make the adjustment and recommit as many have done or you make the step change that only you are empowered to do.

Yes in a way, similar advice to the "if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going" story - I was in the audience Biggus, at HQ STC, and yes it had its shock value - but on reflection, little to argue with and honest plain speaking. There is absolutely no point in railing against the changes. And life outside is not so different, many, many folk out here face exactly the same concerns.

In my new day job I actively promote the RAF to the young lads and lasses as a worthy and rewarding career to follow. I'm heavily involved with the Air Cadets where I do similar. I try to impress upon them not to automatically consider it a job for life, to plan for a second, third career and to keep the plan open as they go along. And yes, I warn them to watch out for the disgruntled. I also impress upon them that the best thing about advice is that its uptake is optional:ok:

[TomJoad]

And this, no doubt, is part of the problem.

Only when it is broke with it been seen by the masters that there is a need to fix it. The RAF needs more of Bader's ilk declaring his sqn non-operational.

AOC.

Didn't AVM Simon Bryant do that recently (on Libya) only to rebuffed by our idiot PM. I have a lot of respect for Bryant, a gentleman and thoroughly competent operator. Call me Dave should have paid attention.

[Red Line Entry]

gr4techie

No - the reason there was no third tranche was that the politicians told us there would not be. The RAF really wanted the third tranche to better spread the redundancies and allow strength and establishment to better align over the 13-16 period. By having only 2 tranches, people had to be taken earlier, exacerbating the gapping that we are suffering now.

However, it didn't make any real difference to the total reduction in numbers.

[NutLoose]

I believe there was once a famous comment from an RAF 4*, along the lines of "..if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going, then get off at the next stop...". That went down well with the troops!!



What that was crying out for was someone to stand up and say...ahhh, my Station and walk out, followed by the rest of the room.

[Wyler]

I have been out now for 7 years but still teach at Phase 2 level as a CS. I am amazed at how busy everybody in uniform seems to be and yet the RAF is shrinking at an amazing rate. When you look a little closer it seems that a lot of this extra workload revolves around intiatives, regulation, preparing for one inspection, secondary duties, education, workshops, online courses...the list goes on. We also have 16 nominated E&D Reps. Meantime the UK airspace is seemingly empty of Mil aircraft (compared to 15 years ago). Also, now that OFSTED is part of the plan we seem to spend more time measuring, data collecting, value adding than we do actually teaching.
I loved my time in and I still thoroughly enjoy my job and the environment but I can't help feeling that we are slowly turning into another below par Public Service overstaffed by 'Managers' and weighed down by needless beauracracy.


As an aside we have had 4 PVRs in the last 6 weeks. :(

[TomJoad]

Wyler,

Just out of interest what/who is you teach (don't understand Phase 2) and what role does OFSTED have. Just curious.

[Wyler]

Phase 2 is Basic Professional Training after Cranwell/Halton. I teach at one of these schools 'up north'.
As a 'school' we now come under OFSTED and are subject to their inspections and documentation. In reality that now means we spend most of our time making sure the shop window looks great at the expense of concentrating on actually teaching.

This is a personal view, I might add. :E

[TomJoad]

Wyler, thanks for that. I would never have imagined that OFSTED would have a remit there but you live and learn. Good luck with keeping them happy:ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....

.... your military "schools" are subject to OFSTED inspections (despite decades of success in training military personnel to do their job). :ugh:

[gr4techie]

OFSTED

I'm sure its because of modern apprenticeships etc. The RAF is doing civilian accredited training.

Why are businesses doing a modern apprenticeship? Because they receive payment of the Government for doing so. Some businesses only see modern apprenticeships as cheap labour. Often the qualification is worthless outside that company. For example, in aircraft engineering is the NVQ the RAF dishes out worth anything in civilian aviation? Not like a JAR66 licence.

[Just This Once...]

Well the RAF does dish out a few JAR licences (albeit via a civilian provider). What we have yet to work out is how to retain the guys and girls once their RoS is up...

[Red Line Entry]

Roland,

So 4 deaths at Deepcut don't count then? If the Ofsted inspections prevent one reoccurrence then they will have been useful. And that's completely in addition to the accreditation issues that gr4techie identifies.

[Roland Pulfrew]

RLE

No, I am afraid they don't count. Deepcut was not a good part of our history, but there have been some dramatic and, some may say, well over the top action plans as a result of Deepcut. Just because one training unit had an issue, all of the others, which had no issues, have been made to implement OTT regulations. I am afraid that bringing OFSTED in will just result in another level of unnecessary bureaucracy. This comes from the OFSTED website:

Our specialist inspectors are experts in the type of service they inspect. When they carry out an inspection, be it of a children’s home, a nursery, a school, a college, or a local authority, they focus on the quality of the service for individual children, young people or older learners. During an inspection, inspectors collect first-hand evidence based on the practice they observe and what they learn from the people using the service. They use this evidence and other information available to make their professional judgements which we publish in inspection reports.

Alarm bells should be going off with the first line of this statement. You see "we" have pretty good assessment systems of our own and lots of our own experts. We have STANEVALs, CFS, FOST, CGS etc. We have been doing a pretty good job of training people to be pilots, engineers, adminers, soldiers, sailors etc etc for some considerable time. We always get the latest fad dumped on us "best practice" and we forget that there is such a thing as "military best practice".

We have been pretty good at doing what we do for nearly 100 years (in the RAF's case) and longer in the case of the RN and British Army. We shouldn't be afraid of external comment, but we shouldn't be too quick to throw out good practice because some external consultant with no understanding of our ethos, tradition and techniques makes an observation in a report. We got IiP forced upon us and we dumped it again after a few years. I leave you with this comment from an IiP assessor, in the hope that one day excessive bureaucracy is the first thing that goes a "savings measure": "Actually we recommended that the whole RAF be accredited as a single entity, rather than unit by unit, but that wasn't allowed."

[TomJoad]

So OFSTED has done what the Luftwaffe could not. Nobody likes the inspectors but deary me:E

[8-15fromOdium]

RP, before you wax lyrical about RAF training it is worth reading the ALI inspection from 2005 (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/filedownloading/?id=873297&type=1&refer=0)and the subsequent re-inspection of 2006 (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/filedownloading/?id=874403&type=1&refer=0).

[TomJoad]

8-15fromOdium it may be my setup but the links to the reports wouldn't work. Any chance you could re post. Cheers.

Ignore my last, working now:\

[Roland Pulfrew]

8-15

Interesting read, but the first report didn't produce anything startling. It didn't say we were bad, just not as good as they thought we might be - with regard to work place NVQs. Now I don't know and I haven't got the time to research it when work place NVQs were introduced. I'm guessing, from what I have found, it was around the same time or just after IiP came in, which would make it the early 2000s. If that is so, then it is perhaps not surprising that it took a few years to bed in. It would also not be surprising the "leadership and management" weren't very good, faced with any new initiative it takes time for the deliverers of training to be trained in the new initiative - but generally we don't do this!

I thought this bit was brilliant though:

WHAT LEARNERS THINK THE ROYAL AIR FORCE COULD IMPROVE:

the amount of time available on the squadron and during operations by getting rid of the distance learning Didn't we introduce distance learning to stop people from having to attend courses away from home base?

the teaching methods - there are too many computerised presentations and they are boring Wasn't CBT introduced as the future of teaching (and of course reduced the number of instructors you needed)?

the amount of practical experience - reintroduce two-weeks' practical experience on an operational station during phase 2 training Taken as a savings measure?

the time available to work on portfolios after joining operational stations Time management is a skill that needs to be learnt

the recognition of previous qualifications

the quality of the food in the mess at RAF Cosford Welcome to the modern RAF and PAYD

the NVQ system - make it more flexible, there's no time on first-line work Is that within "our" control?

the readability of the paperwork and books for the NVQs

the amount of information about what we will do when we leave RAF Cosford

get rid of key skills, why do we have to do them? because they are key skills?

stop having parades at weekends Welcome to the military

stop treating women better than men Welcome to the modern world of EO - as highlighted in the reports


The Report did make me chuckle when the Adult Learning Inspectorate used "recruit training squadron" several times. I was always taught that proper titles were capitalised as in Recruit Training Squadron - so I guess we aren't all perfect! :E

[NutLoose]

. Following induction, learners complete an intensive period of trade training lasting 22 weeks for the RAF Police and 20 weeks for the RAF Regiment. They are assessed for some of the key skills, the technical certificate and NVQ units during this phase. The remainder of the apprenticeship is completed when learners are posted to operational units throughout the RAF, and assessed in the workplace. Progress reviews are at 12-weekly intervals.


Sad to see how far the word "Apprentiship" has been diluted, down to a 20 week course then the rest on the job.

[Old Ned]

WHEN IT'S NO FUN ANYMORE

[Biggus]

When "fun" is a dirty word, but "in" words include:

Stakeholder
Delta (and I don't mean a wing shape)
Underpinning
Followership
Passport (and I don't mean the one you use to travel around the world)
etc...

I'm sure you can all add your own favourites to the list!

[TomJoad]

Sad to see how far the word "Apprentiship" has been diluted, down to a 20 week course then the rest on the job.

Ah the much lauded RAF Apprenticeship scheme. 3 years at Halton learning a whole load of crap you would never encounter in your RAF service career. Yes much better than today's nonsense.:rolleyes:

[cornish-stormrider]

As the man would say..........

I pity the fool who has to suffer this, I really do.

[Krystal n chips]

" Ah the much lauded RAF Apprenticeship scheme. 3 years at Halton learning a whole load of crap you would never encounter in your RAF service career"

Really ?...the R.A.F Apprenticeship scheme was recognised as being one of the best in the UK for the depth and quality of the engineers it produced over the years.

I will agree that some of the content was irrelevant, but overall, the syllabus proved it's worth many times over in the R.A.F and as a civilian.

Most, if not all, of the crap was associated with the BS / synchronised walking and associated bolleaux seen as being somehow integral to becoming an engineer.

[TomJoad]

Really ?...the R.A.F Apprenticeship scheme was recognised as being one of the best in the UK for the depth and quality of the engineers it produced over the years.



By whom? Like all self-proclaimed acclimations the problem is that if you say it often enough it becomes received wisdom and hides the truth. In terms of the integrity of what was taught and the product it delivered the old apprenticeship scheme had much merit. It was blindly obvious however that by the 90s that the scheme was no longer fit for purpose. The training performance standard far exceeded the operational performance standard required by units. The syllabi of the courses was replete with outdated technologies and a "deliver all to everyone" philosophy which saw propulsion and airframe technicians sit through endless hours of piston engine or rotary aircraft theory irrespective of their future career paths. Nor does that RAF operate in isolation. The civilian market was moving towards a revised apprenticeship model, offering a shorter path to qualified status and associated pay benefits. The old apprenticeship was definitely showing its age, it was simply not attractive to potential recruits, was too long and too costly.

[Educated Armourer]

I had to travel to Europe to investigate a harassment complaint (that in itself may have been enough for some people, but I actually believe that the system is basically a good one) and was out of pocket for my trouble. I worked 12 hour days, did not touch a beer and scrounged all my cups of tea from the section that I was working in. After 3 days I came home and was about 30 euros down. Not a great amount in the big scheme of things, but am I the only one that believes if the RAF send you somewhere it shouldn't cost you unless you choose to spend your money in the bar etc? I had to have an internet connection to carry on working into the evening (couldn't claim) and had the basic choice in the PAYD facility. With the demise of IE the trip cost me, as unfortunately most of my trips have since about 2009 or so apart from OOA.

I believe that the lost capability etc previously mentioned is far more important - but much of the criticism in the thread was about management concentrating on the minutiae, but unfortunately even that is only with regard to some selected areas of the minutiae rather than what matters to the troops.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

but much of the criticism in the thread was about management

I think that single word, management, largely sums up how one arrives at a 3rd rate Air Force or, for that matter, Navy. Management skills and "line managers" will never be substitutes for leadership and leaders.

[minigundiplomat]

The RAF has an identity crisis.


Senior 'leaders' have been beguiled by industry buzzwords and concepts and insist on adopting civilian practices. The way of life within the military has been slowly been eroded, and the guys and gals now have 'a job', which in itself suggests some kind of transactional arrangement.


The last SDSR and the following redundancies and erosion of T & C's underline the fact that the military now offers a 'warfighting' job with civilian* benefits.


To top it all, whenever anyone questions any of the newly adopted 'core values' they are scoffed at [especially on here] and told they are in the military and to get on with it.


Can nobody else see the dichotomy here, and why the guys and gals spend much of their time frowning these days?


It's no wonder they are leaving - apart from anything else, they are confused.




* civilian as in not particularly suited to military lifestyle and subject to change at a moments notice.

[NutLoose]

The syllabi of the courses was replete with outdated technologies and a "deliver all to everyone" philosophy which saw propulsion and airframe technicians sit through endless hours of piston engine or rotary aircraft theory irrespective of their future career paths.


And how are you going to foresee their future career paths? I take it you would use a ouija board.
When I left training to go on to helicopters I couldn't foresee a tour on fighters nor VC10.
Also you do not know until the end how many have survived the course to post, or on what or where they are going.

You would also then need three training courses running as opposed to one, unless you went on say a rotary course when posted onto them, but I cannot see anyone running a course simply for the odd person posted onto a Sqn.

[dragartist]

You know you have become a third rate Air Force when.... one and an arf freds sticking out the top of a nut consumes so much intellectual thought and discussion on an intaweb forum.


Goodness knows how we are going to manage when these new wiz jets that can go up and down at the speed of sound need fixing.

[glad rag]

I'm sure its because of modern apprenticeships etc. The RAF is doing civilian accredited training.

Why are businesses doing a modern apprenticeship? Because they receive payment of the Government for doing so. Some businesses only see modern apprenticeships as cheap labour. Often the qualification is worthless outside that company. For example, in aircraft engineering is the NVQ the RAF dishes out worth anything in civilian aviation? Not like a JAR66 licence.

:D

As an old salty dog**** **I was surprised at the lack of in depth knowledge shown by those who had passed their p66b2 tick test. Take the calculations required to determine the internal resistance of an aircraft battery---you wot they said :hmm::suspect::hmm:


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Dumbed down to ****!!

[gr4techie]

Gladrag, I don't know if it's been mentioned already. But what worries me is there's a few low quality AMM's (to put it politely) returning to Cosford for their fitter course and I haven't heard a single one get booted off the course, regardless of how many exams they fail. Is it now an attendance course to get the numbers through?

[relight9]

Well i'm a civvy, but i've built a team of volunteer engineers from several trades, and two of the team are Halton trained sooties, one is still current with the outfit at Cranwell.

Some might challenge the Halton training programmes and don't bemoan their demise, but one thing is for certain, those guys can fix virtually anything, and if it can't be fixed, they will and do, build a new part from raw materials. Literally.
Daunting bench work and a complete contempt for anything that's not perfect are something to stand and stare at in awe.

Perhaps we wont ever be faced with a situation in which raw engineering skills rather than 'fitting skills' are needed again, but from what i see on these pages, when the chips are down i know who i would want around.....

[VictorNavrad]

You know you have become a ...................................................

When you look at a recruting advert containing a picture of a helicopter cockpit.The left hand seat has a Wg Cdr and the right hand has a Sqn Ldr. Every picture tells a story.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

those guys can fix virtually anything, and if it can't be fixed, they will and do, build a new part from raw materials.

That's very much what Messrs A V Roe and Co, then HSA, expected of airframe fitters in the '50s and 60's. When my dad was moved to instructing in the Apprentice Training School (Woodford) in '68, that's what they were still teaching.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

...when there's f-all you can do about even a minor conflict brewing on your own continent.

[Whenurhappy]

...and 2* approval is required for train travel from High Wycombe to London...

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Oh, come on Whenurhappy, that's fifth rate at least - this is a third rate thread ;)

[Whenurhappy]

...2nd Class, of course...


...Does that count as 3rd Rate?

[Old-Duffer]

I say old boy, it's Standard Class now !!!!!!!!!!!!! there is a code don't you know


O-D

[Whenurhappy]

Well, I wouldn't know. I never travel by train for work these days....sadly, it's the bus!

But, really, is that the best use of a 2*'s time to approve 3/6- tickets?

Mind, at HM Embassies & High Commissions, all 'entertainment' expenditure of GBP25 requires Deputy Head of Mission's approval.