QF Metals MOU for Cat A

[Terminalfrost]

I hope I misheard this today - but I understand that the Qantas Metals Unions have taken the first step to hand complete industrial power to Qantas by attempting to allow Cat A LAMEs into their agreement.

All this signed up on a flight to Dubai and fuelled by Tattinger Champagne and a Neil Perry main course followed by a corporate mile high massage.

It is apparently known as the AME Scab agreement 2013.

Anyone know more?

[SeldomFixit]

You seem surprised ? :ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The soft unions can go and agree to anything they like but ultimately the Engineers will have to vote yes. That will not be a given considering it is an agreement to turn them into a roving band of strikebreakers.

[Terminalfrost]

You seem to have a lot of confidence. There's a hard core bunch of "reps" that are more concerned in getting in as much overtime instead of doing some hard yakka and study to advance their careers. That plus the fact that its not only engineers that vote on the metals EBA its also the other classifications that will vote for whatever if they get a tickle in their pockets from QF.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The selfish soft union Reps are not well appreciated by their workmates. Neither will be their advice. If the AMEs sign away their own future with a yes vote and become strike breakers it will be their own doing.

[going down-under]

Cat A will be implemented, no stopping that!

Sorry......

[MR WOBBLES]

Why are the metals involved, Rumour has it the cargo loaders will have the
CAT A, due to the AMEs being over qualified and way to expensive. A CAT A only requires Cert 11 training AMEs are Cert 4.

[rmm]

Has it been officially determined which union will represent the CAT A guys?
Technically they're LAME's so I would think they should fall under the ALAEA's wing.

Who represents them at Virgin?

[Ngineer]

This seems a bit like a baited thread to me.

[Talkwrench]

going down-under

Cat A will be implemented, no stopping that!

Sorry......


I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that 'A' Licences will be implemented.

What is in dispute is which union has legitimate coverage of the classification.

Our careers as licenced and unlicenced aircraft maintenance engineers are at a crossroads.

Qantas' desire to have the 'A' Licence covered by any union other than the ALAEA is motivated ultimately by the desire to cut costs. Great news if you are a shareholder or on a management contract because it means you should enjoy a boost in earnings as a result.

Bad news if you are an AME or LAME employed by Qantas because your career and earning potential will be cruelled.

For AME's thinking about voting yes for any agreement that results in the ALAEA not having coverage of the 'A' Licence, I respectfully request you think long and hard about the medium to long term ramifications.

Forget about the bluster around being labelled as roving strikebreakers - that will only happen once every three to four years when the ALAEA EB is in negotiation. People calling you names shouldn't bother you.

What you should be concerned about is the impact on your career and earnings potential if all Licenced staff are not covered by the one agreement.

With regard to AME delegates, they should be acting in your best interests, not in the interests of the union officials. Truly good and effective union delegates are a rare thing and they should be supported by the members. Bad union delegates are...well, bad and should be removed by the members.

Whenever a new classification is created, their will always be a fight amongst the unions about who should cover it (and receive the union fees and increased industrial presence that follows).

As I have said before, it is easy for any reasonable person to see that the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association is the union that should cover the 'A' Licence classification.

[MELKBQF]

Who represents them at Virgin?

I believe the AMEs and LAMEs at Virgin are reprsented by ALAEA. I spoke to a mate at Virgin recently, although they have Cat A in their current EBA, apparently they havent gone down the Cat A road at this stage.

[Jet-A-One]

To any AME reading this, you should think long and hard about who you take advice from and who is representing you. Look at them and consider if that is where you want your career headed.

Do you aspire to be a LAME (of any sort) one day, earning decent coin? Or do you want to be spineless, disrespected, short sighted and rely on ridiculous amounts of OT to get a decent wage?

Is your rep helping your career advancement or lining his own pockets with OT $$$ while everyone else is trying to save their jobs.

Even a parked truck can't knock sense into some people... :ugh:

[mister hilter]

Dear oh dear, JA1. After reading your last contribution, I seriously doubt any AME aspires to be an insulting, condescending, sort of LAME.
Are you a plant from one of the AME unions?

[VicVector]

Having worked in outside industry and then working in aviation - I was very surprised and confused upon embarking in my career as an AME.

The 'us and them' attitude, and treatment, that does exist between AME's and LAME'S where I am employed will only work in the company's favour in introducing the Cat A licence.

I don't understand how it came to be that AME's and LAME'S were represented by different Unions. Shouldn't it have been united we stand?

But I guess that's is all irrelevent now.

Even though I will reject the proposal, it will be voted in, without a doubt.

[Redstone]

I would have thought the current court action covering membership and coverage would have precluded an agreement around cat A LAMES let alone a vote?

[Silverado]

I'm confused? Does this mean that all the B1.1/B2 LAMES at QF who will also be utilising their A Licences, will be covered by 2 different EBA's?

[the_company_spy]

Silverado makes a valid point. In fact qf already has an army of engineers with A cat licences ready to go. You might be a B cat on 744 but you can be task trained on all other types and use your A cat.

Every reference to A cat certifiers in all the CASA regs calls them "licenced engineers"
There is no debate as to who should represent these LAME's.

[neville_nobody]

I don't understand how it came to be that AME's and LAME'S were represented by different Unions. Shouldn't it have been united we stand?

Except that the AMEs will outnumber the LAMEs so therefore it will become a AME union by default and dilute any LAME power. Given that LAMEs have much more responsibility they are probably entitled to setup their own union to look after their needs.

[AEROMEDIC]

This will work surprisingly well, and if it's possible to to eliminate the LAME completely from the workplace, then that will help too!!!
After all, why cause a delay in aircraft departure when you can just ignore the fluid leaks, cracks, and missing parts. You don't have to have engineers for pre flight checks and if it looks OK, it probably is.
The only drawback is WHEN a "smoking hole" appears, someone is going to have to fill in a report.

Gee, it just doesn't get simpler than that, and you can take the money and run.

What's more, those who might get caught up in the wash out can sleep soundly knowing that this company will back you to the hilt.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

For those who have some interest but are wondering what the thread is about, here is the content of a notice we oput out today -

ALAEA - Notice 12/2013 - Qantas Members - Qantas AME Wage Agreement (http://www.alaea.asn.au/notices/notices-2013/479-notice-12-2013-qantas-members-qantas-ame-wage-agreement)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

ALAEA members have recently contacted the Association in relation to the current offer from Qantas for a new wage Agreement titled Qantas Airways Limited (AWU, AMWU, CEPU) Enterprise Agreement 9. The ALAEA have been locked out of these discussions for legal reasons and cannot represent our members directly or indirectly. We can give advice and next week, when voting commences, you will be able to express your views by telling the company that the offer on the table is unacceptable.

Background
Traditionally the AME Agreements are negotiated 12 months after the LAME Agreements. Because LAMEs tend to have more industrial influence over the airline due to their licences, outcomes in recent times have generally been won by LAMEs through disputes; such as those in 2008 and 2011. After the LAME Agreements are settled, the same wage rises (a combination of level increases and percentage-based pay rises) are also applied to AMEs, Workshop Engineers and Trades Assistants. The other group covered by the AME Agreement are some Technical and Supervisory staff who have always been seen by the airline as compliant, second class citizens and hence the airline haven’t even applied the same combination of level and percentage-based rises to that classification.

To break this cycle, Qantas have concocted a plan to remove the ability for LAMEs to fight for those extra increases that have traditionally flowed on to the AME groups. It involves the manipulation of the new A licence personnel who are classed as LAMEs by CASA but are conveniently being called “unlicensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers with a licence” so they can be covered by this new AME Agreement. The Agreements are deliberately offset so that when B1/B2 LAMEs are fighting to get us all fair wage outcomes, the A licenced LAMEs will be used by the airline as strike-breakers to take away our ability to win any dispute.

If this offer is accepted, the future ability of any of us to achieve fair wage outcomes or job security will be taken away. This will have a demonstrative impact on LAMEs, AMEs, Workshop Engineers and Trades Assistants. We recommend that you look past the initial carrot and consider the future impact of this offer and reject it entirely. You are already deserving of the base wage increases on offer as they were the same ones that applied to LAMEs. With AME wages so low we would have expected the increase in percentage terms to be higher than what they have offered. This outcome will only see the difference between AME and LAME wages widen further.

Career Ending Decision
We appreciate that many people to be covered by this Agreement may not wish to be B1 or B2 LAMEs. The negative impact for you is explained above. In summary the ability for us to fight for better wages and conditions that have always applied to you will be taken away as this offer creates a pool of strike-breakers.

For those who do wish to attain further qualifications, acceptance of this offer will end your ability to become a B classified LAME and your future wage earnings will be severely restricted. If this Agreement is accepted, A licenced LAMEs will be able to certify for 90% of the Line Maintenance tasks that B LAMEs do. There will be no need for Qantas to offer you full training courses and we do not expect them to validate self-training you may wish to do to attain a B1 or B2 licence.

The current LAME Agreement (WD 2012) can and should be used as the wage Agreement for A licences. This offer is being made to prevent you accessing the LAME Agreement and payments. Not only is it well short of the amount you should receive as a base rate LAME, they are not offering progression through the LAME pay structure for years of service and you will not receive the normal pay rises entitled to LAMEs as they become licenced on a multiple number of aircraft. The difference between getting paid under the LAME Agreement and the proposed Agreement is outlined below.

Currently the LAME wage Agreement should be used as A licence holders are LAMEs (as defined by CASA) and they will hold ratings on various aircraft. Whether you are an Aircraft Worker/Trades Assistant who obtains a Cat A licence or an AME with one, provision is currently available to pay you under the existing LAME Agreement as per the 4th column of the table below.

The third column is what Qantas wants to pay a Level 14 Mechanical AME holding an A licence if you accept their offer based on him/her holding the highest A licence payment of $115 per week. The second column is for a Trades Assistant on the top Level 7 with the lower A licence level of $70 per week. An example of an Aircraft Worker/Trades Assistant in this role could be one working, and certifying for tasks carried out, in the cabin.


Lvl 7 T/A holding first level A licence (current offer) - always $50,596
Lvl 14 AME holding A licence(current offer) - always $69,888
Paid under the existing LAME Agreement - $73,216 upwards

1st A licence (738)$50,596........ $69,888......... $73,216
2nd A licence (767)$50,596.........$69,888.........$77,948
4 years as LAME $50,596.............$69,888.........$82,680
3rd A licence (744)$50,596...........$69,888........$87,360
4th A licence (A330)$50,596..........$69,888.......$92,144
7 years as LAME$50,596.................$69,888......$97,032
5th A licence (A380)$50,596............$69,888......$109,356

The table clearly demonstrates the reason why the company want you to accept this offer. Of course the difference between what you should be earning and what they want you to earn is greater when shift penalties are added. The table shows that the maximum you could ever earn as a Mechanical LAME will be permanently capped at $69,888 (subject to CPI adjustments).

The offer does not specify that the training would go to trade-qualified AMEs, it will allow the company to train Trades Assistants as A licence LAMEs and still pay them at existing T/A rates with the A licence allowance. The $70-$115 A licence allowances do not increase with wage increases and, unlike the A licence Agreement at Virgin, there is no obligation for the company to offer full B training after two years as A licence-holders; in fact there is no obligation to ever provide B training.

Because of the way the Agreement has been written (with the ability for non-trades people to obtain the A licence) Qantas would no longer need to employ reasonable levels of Apprentices. Instead they could put people on short traineeships and two years later they could become Aircraft Workers/Trades Assistants with A licences on the lower wage levels. This, in turn, will limit career opportunities for existing AMEs to move around to different sections. In the words of Qantas management when discussing this issue with the ALAEA they said – Why would we give A licences to AMEs, they are too valuable.

Tech Salaried Positions within the Agreement
We are unsure why but again the company seems to be forgetting the persons in Technical or Supervisory classifications. Qantas LAMEs and now Qantas AMEs have been given offers of a level (worth 5%), 3%, level (worth 5%) and 3%, the Tech classifications have only been offered 3% each year with a slight adjustment worth 1.5% to those in level 4. The ALAEA considers that all people within Engineering should be valued appropriately and treated equally with regards to pay increases.

Your consideration of a yes or no vote for this agreement is extremely important. Whilst we may not be allowed to represent your interests currently, you can represent yourself by rejecting this offer. The company will be encouraging you to vote yes because they will save money and turn LAMEs working under two separate Agreements against each other as strike-breakers.

This is not about getting back at some current LAME you don’t like, in doing so you will only harm yourself. This is not about protecting the wages of existing LAMEs, they will always be covered by the higher paid LAME Agreement. This is not about securing a few extra dollars now; this is about your entire career. It will be too late in ten years’ time to turn back the clock when you are licenced on every Qantas aircraft and only getting paid the equivalent of $69,888. This company are trying to suck you in today.

All people working within Engineering deserve a better outcome than the one currently on offer. Let the airline know that you weren’t born yesterday by voting NO to this strike-breaking offer.

[Talkwrench]

Hi Mods,

Could you please make this thread sticky for a week or two.

Very important info for engineering staff at QF and possibly elsewhere if a precedent is set.

Thanks.

[600ft-lb]

Fedsec, is there currently a court case underway regarding which union had the right to represent workers who are to be employed under an A licence?

[Ngineer]

I'd be surprised if a cat A holder could afford to join a union. Some of the guys I have heard of are paid very poorly.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

There's been a few court cases.

They tried to stop up signing up any AME's in FWA and failed.

They tried to stop us saying we could represent AMEs and Cat A's in Fed Court and most likely would have won, we settled and agreed not to represent until our rules were changed.

We have an active applicatio in to change our rules, waiting on court dates.

Another case will start if they try and register this current offer as an Agreement because we say that Cat A people should be covered under the LAME Agreement.

Lucky we have our in house solicitors now as per original election platform although it is still expensive with Barristers. Have been told by a leader of one of the AME unions that if we are successful changing our rules, they will challenge it all the way to the High Court.

[im sparticus]

its crazy to think, if most of the union members whom the A licence does not concern vote yes they can bring in something that those concerned may disagree with just on sheer numbers if the rest of the agreement suits them. surely those not concerned should not have an influence on the outcome of the A licence issues?

What options do potential A licence ames have that disagree with the current A licence offer, seeing now that there interests are so different from the majorety of the union members they are with? I have a feeling just voting no wont cut it. (do we need to form our own little union)?

Ps. what is most disappointing is that anything to do with the A licence in the agreement has not been communicated back to the members (almost feels like they were trying to let it slip past unnoticed). I was not aware until today that the new agreement included it and im sure most others seemed in the same boat.

[600ft-lb]

Seeing as this agreement encompasses multiple AME trades, structures, fibre glass, fitters, painters, utility, trades assistants, I dare say the A licence issue is a non issue for over 50% of the AME's who will vote.

I can't see an outpouring of support from people this has no effect on.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It will affect all of them because the A licence guys will act as strikebreakers against the B licences. The flow on will be lower wage rises for everyone, even Workshop blokes.

[im sparticus]

Ok so the current solution is to pray and hope the ames whom this has no direct impact on are as fwd thinking as the lames assuming those ames are even aware of this issue.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It would help if you guys went to those areas and made them aware of the problem. A copy of the ALAEA notice would make it clear or you could phone them to explain.

[genxfrog]

"If this offer is accepted, the future ability of any of us to achieve fair wage outcomes or job security will be taken away."

Someone please explain to me how we have job security now? The other question I have is why are we intending to spend many tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of our members dollars in pursuit of a lost cause? We reap what we sow and I guess in a way this is karma for what we did to the AME Unions at Avalon when Qantas set up operations there.

Somewhere along the line the Unions have forgotten who the common enemy is and has instead become hell bent on destroying each other with a "take no prisoners" attitude. We continue to do this at our own peril.
I'm proud to defend our future but this inter-union sideshow does nothing more than remind me that collectively we all have failed to learn from the past 15 years. :ugh:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Someone please explain to me how we have job security now?

No one has Job Security now anyone who says we do is lying .

[KrispyKreme]

Steve, I believe they have cat A licence system in operation at VAustralia? Do you represent the Cat A license holders there?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We negotiated the cat A payment at Virgin. It's about twice us much as what Qantas are offering but more importantly, it's a genuine career stepping stone because after holding it for 2 years, they must offer you a B course.

The A licences are also limited to 10% of the workforce.

If the AMEs except this, they will destroy their own careers.

[Talkwrench]

Rumour is that the QF mainline AMWU/AWU/CEPU EBA has been voted up.

Any confirmation?

Did the A licence content remain in their agreement?

[VicVector]

Rumour is that the QF mainline AMWU/AWU/CEPU EBA has been voted up.

Any
confirmation?

Did the A licence content remain in their agreement?

Yes. EBA was voted up (A Licence inclusive)

[Talkwrench]

Wow! And here was me thinking the AME union officials would never be able to top their efforts from EBA3 when they successfully brought in the "B" Scale for QF AME's back in 1996.

They really have outdone themselves this time. Whereas the introduction of the"B" scale merely hobbled all the AME's post 1996, this new EBA should serve to hobble all AME's, past, present and future!

Nice work guys. Well Done! I guess it's cigars and dutch rudders all round eh?!

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

I guess the champagne glasses were clinking at Olivia and Paul's place last night.

[Pterois Volitans]

Now that the company have the ability to use the "A" license, thanks to the AWU! :yuk: there will be no B1/2 courses or very little type training in the future!! :ugh:

Like many have already done, the words are eject...eject...eject!!!

[Ngineer]

Worried about getting a course?? Mate, I'd be worried about keeping your job, regardless of whether you may be a B1, B2 or AME. The free fall in standards is set in motion.

[K9P]

Yes, the rot has well and truly set in

[Pterois Volitans]

Very true!!!! with the requirement of the "A" dropped to cert 3 the quality of work can only go down!!!

[tgbgtgb]

Cert 2 :sad:

[the_company_spy]

A Cat non-lame lames will only be used at terminals, none in SAM. AMEs will not receive A cat type training as they are too expensive and over qualified. Now that Qf has a foot in the door expect TWU drivers and ramp workers to receive A cat training and type training.
Well done on a great outcome.

[Ngineer]

A Cat non-lame lames will only be used at terminals

Only at terminals.....man that's a big relief.:ugh:

[600ft-lb]

$100 week, well done AWU
Maintenance activities
authority in subcategory
A1, A2, A3 or A4
1 Minor scheduled line maintenance,
including a scheduled inspection or
check, up to and including a weekly
check:
(a) specified in the operator’s approved
aircraft maintenance program; or
(b) if not specified in the operator’s
approved aircraft maintenance
program that CASA considers is
equivalent to a weekly check and lists
in an AAC.
2 Minor maintenance, including a preflight, transit or overnight check, ground
handling, APU running, minimum
equipment list (MEL) implementation
as allowed by paragraph 3 (p) and
replenishment.
3 After appropriate task training for
issuing an aircraft certificate of release
to service as part of minor scheduled
line maintenance or simple defect
rectification:
(a)replacement of wheel assemblies; and
(b)replacement of wheel brake units; and
(c)replacement of emergency
equipment; and (d) replacement of
ovens, boilers and beverage makers;
and
(e)replacement of internal and external
lights, filaments and flash tubes; and
(f) replacement of windscreen wiper
blades; and
(g)replacement of passenger or cabin crew
seats, seat belts and harnesses; and
(h)closing of cowlings and refitment of
quick access inspection panels; and
(i) replacement of toilet system
components, other than gate valves;
and
(j) simple repair and replacement of
internal compartment doors and
placards, other than doors forming
part of a pressure structure; and
(k)simple repair and replacement of
overhead storage compartment doors
and cabin furnishing items; and
(l) replacement of static wicks; and
(m)replacement of aircraft main and
APU batteries; and
(n)replacement of in-flight entertainment
system components, other than
public address; and
(o)routine lubrication and replenishment
of system fluids and gases; and
(p)deactivation of subsystems and
aircraft components as permitted by
the operator’s MEL, if the task is one
that CASA considers is a simple task
and is listed in an AAC; and
(q)replacement of any other component
for an aircraft type if the task is one
that CASA considers is a simple task
and is listed in an AAC

[the_company_spy]

Ngineer, a lot of Ames in base very gung Ho about becoming acats, by that comment I meant to highlight to them the lie their union sold them.

[Talkwrench]

lot of Ames in base very gung Ho about becoming acats

gung Ho

Yep, Gung Ho and ready to get in there and "Kick Ass" no doubt...

Just the mindset you need for aircraft maintenance eh?

Mix that up with a bit of the cynicism, regret and jealously that will no doubt flourish in the months and years ahead as they realise just how badly they were screwed over by their officials and we'll have a brand new generation of disengagement that Towers Watson will have to work out the root cause of.

But then again, they're all big boys and they were the ones doing the voting...

Or is my imagination running away with me?

Any alternative views of the future?

[buttmonkey1]

Cat A in casa's book is called a licenced aircraft maintenance mechanic,
Not licenced ame, or a Lame, has a limited but adequate level of knowledge where as B1/2 has a complete level of knowledge
in all modules... blah blah... most ames i've seen would need extensive training and the ramp guys, etc would maybe never make the grade.
will the company push it's version of it when the MOD court case?? is put to bed.

[Ngineer]

No offence intended mate.

[VicVector]

Most Ame's I have talked to (line environment) seem well grounded and are well aware what the CAT A licence represents and that the AWU have sold them down the river. From those who have told me ( I never ask) they voted NO in the EBA, as I did. (The figure I was shown - 85% voted in favour)
From where I stand, I certainly see no 'gung-ho' AME's excited about CAT A licencing. Why would they be???

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The ALAEA will be challenging the Agreement in FWC if they try and lodge it. If I could draw a comparison -

A hospital has two Agreements. One for Nurses and one for doctors. The doctors think that the new people in their profession are not being paid enough and want an increase. To avoid negotiating with the doctors, the hospital creates a new allowance in the nurses Agreement so the new starters are nurses with a doctors allowance.

Same by putting LAMEs in the unlicenced Agreement.

[One Eye Redundant]

Steve,
Will Qf be able to grant A licenses to bag chuckers and other ramp staff under the current agreement with CASA. If so, which union would support these people?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Yes the A licences can go to any person who has two years experience on aircraft. That is a bit vague but considering that Qantas run CASA, we are assuming they will rubber stamp things like Cabin cleaners holding experience to fix minor Cabin issues and baggage handlers to be able to do the inspections when doors are closed. A T/A who does greasing may qualify for the tasks he does and then start training to extend into other areas.

The whole arrangement has put this LAME allowance into the unlicenced Agreement. The TWU who traditionally cover the rampies may lose members as they get the Cat A's with the AME unions increasing numbers from both ends. The whole scam takes coverage from the two disliked unions (ALAEA and TWU) and hands them to two unions who each have less than 1% of their members in aviation.

[Gas Bags]

Cleaning an aircraft hardly counts towards the two year experience requirements for a cat 'A' approval. I have worked under EASA and JAR 145 systems for years and never once have I seen a cleaner awarded time spent picking up rubbish as aircraft maintenance experience.

To obtain a cat A approval a candidate still has to complete the correct combination of theory modules for the category they are looking to pick up out of the following list:

Modules 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, and 17. These are mostly examined at level 1 which is lower than for a cat B approval. Nonetheless they still need to be completed.

Then they need to have the appropriate logged 2 years practical experience, as well as the appropriate task training.

Anybody can study and sit for the modules. If a cleaner is motivated enough to study these, is lucky enough to have an AMO provide the practical experience requirements then that is no different to the motor mechanics, fitter/turners, trade assistants, that have done exactly that in the past to gain a CAR 31 license.

The real issue here is the loss of cat B positions to the cat A positions.

I don't like QF, I have never worked for QF, and I have made a career choice to never work for QF.

This does not change the fact that they are running a business and the cat A is now a part of that business, much as it has been in most other parts of the world for years.

In my experience the cat A replaces the AME more so than the cat B. The only difference here is that QF are top heavy with cat B's and they are paying a large portion of them big dollars to carry out mundane tasks.

The cat A is here to stay....You will have some of them who never want to progress to cat B , and some who will. Those who do will find a way. Maybe that way is not with Qantas.

There is life outside the red rat.

One important question that needs answering is: Can a cat A certify for a mechanic's (AME) work or does the cat A certification privilege only extend to the work carried out by themselves as the approval holder?

[going down-under]

Well stated and explaned GasBags, it takes an EASA licensee to explain the new CASA regulations. Unfortunately that means you should know the answer to your own question ending your topic.

A cat A licensee cannot sign for work done buy others nor supervise others.
A cat A licensee can sign the whole job when it is done with another cat A licensee. This from my memory when I was working the EASA system.

Greetzzz

[Ngineer]

Without opening up a new can of worms, is it possible that the LAME union is being snubbed as many of it's members have transferred into this great EASA style system with Cat "A" licences issued on type, and QF want to distance themselves from any form of payment for it?

Do they now need to join 2 unions for both licences??

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We can still represent a B licence holder on issues related to their A lcences that they are also given.

The company wanted these A only people represented by a union that doesn't have a clue what they are talking about in Aviation because they have managed to get them for virtually nothing. By doing this they now also have LAMEs in two seperate Agreements and can deploy them as strikebreakers against each other. The AWU and AMWU have delivered the airline everything the union movement stands against.

Gas Bags as for you explanation about who what and how of A licences, what you say is correct in Europe but you cannot underestimate the control Qantas has over CASA to water down every protection the original system was designed for. In my experience CASA has sided with Qantas on every single issue I have worked on eg. supporting Qantaslink to take action against LAMEs for reporting faulty cockpit doors.

[Gas Bags]

GDU,

It was a rhetorical question...Asked to go somewhat towards dispelling the myth of the cat B disappearing and being replaced by cat A labour. As I pointed out it will be the AME who will be replaced by the cat A more so than the cat B.

As human nature dictates, people do not like change and they are afraid of the unknown. Part 66 is just that to a lot of people who gain their knowledge about it in the smoko room.

Goal posts virtually never moved in this industry in Australia for many many decades. In the last twenty years industry change has been enormous for Australian engineers compared to the prior 50 years. Change will increase more so over the next 5-10 years. If you can learn to move with that change and benefit in the ways that change can give, you will have a far more rewarding career.

For the 30 year institutionalised QF LAME that is probably not much help...For the newly rated QF LAME it is maybe a little more understandable.

[life_sentence_as_AME]

Now that the company have the ability to use the "A" license, thanks to the AWU! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif there will be no B1/2 courses or very little type training in the future!! :ugh:
Before I get into this you should know that I voted against this agreement. I have a few reasons and some are to do with cat A. However, I completely respect the position of the majority who voted yes, and here are a few reasons why:


There has been stuff all training for AMEs anyway.
Cat A may reduce the opportunity for AMEs to be type trained but the percentage of AMEs being trained over the last few years is so close to zero that it we may not even notice the difference.
A lot of the people who would benefit most from this agreement are the ones that have been stuck at the "glass ceiling" for ten years as a result of an EBA that a lot of you critics probably voted for 15 - 20 years ago to feather your own nest.
For those high level LAMEs out there with 25+ years service, think about how easy it was for you to get training and compare it to how hard it is for an AME today. And don't give me that "it goes in cycles" crap. I have been at QF long enough to know that whatever cycle there used to be is long gone.

There have been lots of posts made in this thread by many people (including ALAEA Fed Sec) that claim to contain facts and figures from the AME agreement. Some may be acurate, some may not, but most of it is being put to you in a way that makes it look worse than it is.


Fed Sec, you said
outcomes in recent times have generally been won by LAMEs through disputes; such as those in 2008 and 2011The 2008 dispute did gain some positive EBA outcomes but it also indirectly resulted in a lot of people losing customer payments when managment got some payback. I know that QF managment are the only ones to blame for this but it shows that it wasnt all positive.
In 2011 your effective, tactical, industrial campaign got blown out of the water by the threatened lockout. This resulted in a determination that was basically a roll over of the previous agreement that was missing some key words that could have prevented this thread from ever existing. If the words "no A licences for the life of this agreement" had been in your determination I would not be here typing this dribble.


The AME unions cop a lot of crap from LAMEs and the ALAEA for not having any industrial backbone. Cast your mind back to the mid 2000's when QF had their "wage freeze". There was only one aggreement in that period that had a pay rise in it and it wasn't the ALAEA's.


My 2cents


LSaA

[Ngineer]

Sooooo, what uniform will the next generation type 'A' guys be wearing??

[tgbgtgb]

Flourescent yellow.

Just like the rest of us in engineering soon....

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Some of the things you have said life sentence ar true but other most certainly are not. Thnx for voting no and I'll now respond to some of your comments.

The AME unions cop a lot of crap from LAMEs and the ALAEA for not having any
industrial backbone. Cast your mind back to the mid 2000's when QF had their
"wage freeze". There was only one aggreement in that period that had a pay rise
in it and it wasn't the ALAEA's.

This is correct and even worse, the ALAEA were the first union to sign on to the wage freeze. AME unions then also had different leaders who didn't hold back on supporting their members. The ALAEA was the companies favourtie union and members often felt ripped off. That's why a new team of leaders were elected in 2006.

The 2008 dispute did gain some positive EBA outcomes but it also indirectly
resulted in a lot of people losing customer payments when managment got some
payback.

2008 plus 2011 LAME disputes led directly to the same wages outcomes and benefits in AME Agreements. If we got less, AMEs would have got less. Customer contracts and paybacks weren't ditched because of any dispute. It started in 2007 when the Sin contract was dumped. It was a company wide policy from before 2008 to get rid of all contracts and it was not just Engineering because it was also Ramp and Customer Services.

If the words "no A licences for the life of this agreement" had been in your
determination I would not be here typing this dribble.

True. They weren't in the previous Agreement either. The aruments in the last few days of the "30 day negotiation period" were over the company trying to remove our "retain existing job functions". We kept that clause and it is still uncertain whether the airline will be able to take one of our functions - certification. Qantas have a few hurdles to jump over yet.


There has been stuff all training for AMEs anyway.

Cat A may reduce the opportunity for AMEs to be type trained but the
percentage of AMEs being trained over the last few years is so close to zero
that it we may not even notice the difference.

Why do you think there has been stuff all training in the last few years? I know why. It's because they knew that although the ALAEA would not allow Cat A licences unless there was a genuine career path (like we negotiated at Virgin), they had two soft unions that were already talking about your future. It was sold down the drain a long time ago.

The lack of recent training has been in anticipation of the day they signed off on the new Agreement with the AMWU and AWU. This was all pre-planned hence the pi$$ week support we had from the ACTU and Labor party when they intervened in the 2011 dispute. You may have noticed the then disability Minister Bill Shorten sitting front row at FWA. I spoke to him much over those days and he was there to make sure the governments intervention was approved and hence deliverence of cheaper LAMEs to Qantas, more members to the AME unions and more money for the Labor Party. That is why there has been little recent type training for AMEs.

[going down-under]

imperial shifter wrote:

and post your resume about until you get a licenced job somewhere else?


Wish it was that easy (although I became picky :O )

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Particularly ambitious AMEs because you're getting shafted at QANTAS and that's not going to change soon.

Mate, unless you sit in an office on a salary, you are getting shafted at Qantas.

[going down-under]

Imperial Shifter:

Got to get an interview first. Even with 2 licenses and a list of a/c still can't get thru. Any tips welcome :ok: thru PM please.

Anyway, back to topic: QF Metals MOU for Cat A

Sorry for the diversion

[Pterois Volitans]

We have been informed the that the AME EBA has been submitted to the FWA for approval, I has wondering if the ALAEA had any luck in blocking the submission due to the A license clause?

I have to agree with you "going down under" having Qantas on your cv now seems to be a disadvantage when applying for jobs inside the industry!!!!

[Ngineer]

QANTAS is a bit of a dirty word to some employers.

From the most sought after employees in the world to the least respected??

I don't think so. In fact I reckon I know the employer you are talking about, and I am hardly surprised.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We have been informed the that the AME EBA has been submitted to the FWA for approval, I has wondering if the ALAEA had any luck in blocking the submission due to the A license clause?

We have applied to object to the Agreement certification. We didn't want to stand in the way of the AMEs getting their payrise though so some interim papers are being discussed so that the rise can go through and the only part in contention is that A licence bit.

[Propstop]

It is sad that skilled people are being thrown on the scrap heap by QF, and many are starting to realise that airline skills are generally not transferrable to GA.
I did my time at TAA and was one of the best apprenticeships around and taught me skills I have had to use in my career.
Moving from airlines into GA is truly another apprenticeship and a lot of SOE time to get the types and groups, but more importantly the mindset adjustment as you have to do a lot of lateral thinking and be very mindful of costs.
There are many employers in Australia and around the world who will not employ ex airline LAMES. Some of the places I have worked have in the past tried them and found them too inflexible and or impractical. I am not talking about companies run by Dodgy Bros Inc but respected aviation suppliers operating under EASA 145 and regular audits by major oil companies.
Make a case for the practical skills you possess and take a practical but totally legal attitude with hard work and you will prosper in GA and in some cases earn good money.
It was the best thing I have done was to leave the airlines and go into GA

[Long Bay Mauler]

Maybe it is also a case that Qantas engineers (AME & LAME) have always spoken up collectively, and this is not what many other employers like their good "slaves" to do.

And thats not just a Qantasism, thats more about being Australian, and not being subservient when push comes to shove, and many employers don't like those who are willing to stand up for themselves.

[Short_Circuit]

found them too inflexible and or impractical.I was always taught "Near enough is not good enough" so I guess that makes me and my lot inflexible and or impractical for a reason.
Safety before Schedule etc etc etc..

[Ngineer]

It's the lingering private sector attitudes that many of the staff retain

I totally disagree. I have met with a few from the other airline that carry this opinion of Qf staff and it has obviously become a stigma born to them through personal reasons. Qf staff remain the most highly trained, skilled and flexible staff in their profession. I refuse to hear otherwise about guys who I see slog it out everyday above what any reasonable employer would expect them to do.

[AEROMEDIC]

[QUOTE][It is sad that skilled people are being thrown on the scrap heap by QF, and many are starting to realise that airline skills are generally not transferrable to GA.
I did my time at TAA and was one of the best apprenticeships around and taught me skills I have had to use in my career.
Moving from airlines into GA is truly another apprenticeship and a lot of SOE time to get the types and groups, but more importantly the mindset adjustment as you have to do a lot of lateral thinking and be very mindful of costs.
There are many employers in Australia and around the world who will not employ ex airline LAMES. Some of the places I have worked have in the past tried them and found them too inflexible and or impractical. I am not talking about companies run by Dodgy Bros Inc but respected aviation suppliers operating under EASA 145 and regular audits by major oil companies.
Make a case for the practical skills you possess and take a practical but totally legal attitude with hard work and you will prosper in GA and in some cases earn good money.
It was the best thing I have done was to leave the airlines and go into GA/QUOTE]

Good post Prop Stop,

In GA, an engineer has to engage in lateral thinking and get good at problem solving when they are on their own away from base with no coms except the aircraft radios. Compliance with the regs, maintenance manuals and procedures are paramount and the ability to fix things instead of being stranded sorts the good from the "not so good". No maintenance watch or spares overnight in the middle of nowhere.

[Talkwrench]

Noted that QF has applied for approval of their AME EBA9 Agreement by FWA.

Hearing scheduled for 1000, Thursday 20 June 2013.

ALAEA has stated it will oppose the approval of the agreement, basically due to the A licence content it contains.

This runs the risk of delaying the payrise and backpay for the AME's

ALAEA proposes the following solution (quoted from their notice):

We know that our objection might delay approval of the Agreement and we propose to offer to Qantas that we have no objections to the rest of the Agreement applying, so long as Qantas do not apply the A licence parts of the Agreement until the FWC makes a determination whether those can be approved or not.

This means the responsibility of getting the bulk of the Agreement approved and the wage rises and back pay getting paid as soon as possible will rest squarely with Qantas and the other unions accepting our proposal.

Anyone had any feedback from the AME unions or QF about their possible response to the above scenario?

Is Bill Shorten expected to be in attendance?

[Talkwrench]

Seen a notice from ALAEA circulating around about the AME EBA.

Looks like the AWU AMWU and CEPU Officials are not prepared to accept the ALAEAs offer to allow payrise and backpay to AMEs whilst the question on A licence coverage gets sorted out.

And can anyone tell me how an 'A' Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer suddenly became classified as an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer with a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Allowance? How do they dream this stuff up?

Anyway, it appears to me that the AMEs need to tell their delos and officials to facilitate their payrise and backpay immediately. If that means pulling the A licence content out to do so, then so be it.

[rudderless1]

The company told the AME unions they must push the deal through complete, otherwise whats the point of lubricating the Ames. :yuk:

[Pterois Volitans]

Does anyone know what is happing to the AME's EBA?? I think there was a meeting between the unions and the FWA in July but since then nothing. No communication from the company or the unions.

Anyone care to comment?

[rivet head]

Just heard around the traps, that hearing concluded and that FWA will deliberate for 2 weeks before handing down their decision.No official word from any of the unions.Metals unions must be a bit busy now that K.Dudd now back on the scene.

[Jethro Gibbs]

No communication from the company or the unions.
So whats new

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Don't worry Jethro, rumour going around SYD that the company is going to be communicating to all of us very soon and it aint going to be pretty.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Theme park being readied for takeoff at Avalon Jobs for all running the Dodgem Cars.:ok:

Theme park being readied for takeoff at Avalon | Geelong, VIC, Australia (http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2013/07/25/369931_news.html)

[lamem]

Most will be lucky to last 12 months after the ex railway manager finishes his "review". Get ready for LOTS of A Licenses. Most restricted B1 and most B2 will be forced out the door.

[genxfrog]

Jethro....communication from Unions will go to Union members. It's not rocket science......want info then join.

[Pterois Volitans]

Even if you are a member of the unions, they still fail to communicate what is happening to the AME's EBA. The rumour is it is still with the FWA and a ruling might be made within the next 2 weeks.

As to the rumour about more job loses in SYD engineering that is yet to be confirmed BUT it will get worse before it gets better!!!:ugh:

[unionist1974]

The FWC has approved the Metals EBA . Good thing!

[genxfrog]

The FWC decision has been made:

Conclusion
[49] The Agreement is approved and, in accordance with s.54(1)(a) will operate from
7 August 2013. The nominal expiry date of the Agreement is 31 December 2016.
VICE PRESIDENT WATSON
Printed by authority of the Commonwealth Government Printer AE402684 PR539480

[MR WOBBLES]

So the AMEs have lost career path well done

[Bagus]

The Australian Workers' Union and the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union have welcomed a Fair Work Australia decision to approve a new workplace agreement for Qantas engineers, striking out objections from the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association.

The new workplace agreement delivers an average annual pay rise of 4.2 per cent over the next four years and has the support of more than 85 per cent of the workforce.

Despite that, the ALAEA tried to stop the agreement being approved. In rejecting the ALAEA's appeal, Vice President Watson of Fair Work Australia described the ALAEA's arguments as 'opportunistic'.*

AWU Vice President, Daniel Walton said today's decision was a relief for members.

"While it’s great that this agreement has been finalised, frankly, it would never have taken this long had it not been for the obstructionist behaviour of the ALAEA," Mr Walton said.

"This is a first rate agreement that delivers solid improvements to pay and conditions for our members. It's an agreement we can all be proud of."

AMWU Assistant National Secretary, Glenn Thompson said he was happy to see the agreement resolved.

"We have been negotiating this agreement since October last year and our members are relieved that it has been finalised.

"This agreement had strong support from the outset and delivers certainty and security for Qantas engineers."

This page has been tagged as:
- See more at: Qantas Engineers finally get well deserved pay rise | The Australian Workers' Union (http://www.awu.net.au/news/qantas-engineers-finally-get-well-deserved-pay-rise#sthash.Jopwv4LK.dpuf)

[The masked goatrider]

ALAEA are being quiet about this. On behalf of all Ames I would like to thank Mr Walton. I just can't understand how a union official from the AWU who has never worked a day in his life can already know more about Aviation than those ALAEA blokes. This is what Mr Walton had to say

This agreement had strong support from the outset and delivers certainty and security for Qantas engineers.

and this is what the judge said

“[11] CASA has been promulgating new regulations that seek to harmonise the Australian aviation regulatory system with the European system. One aspect of the new system is the introduction of new licence categories. All LAME licences have been converted to either Category B1, B2 or C licences. They are given an aircraft rating signifying expertise to work
on particular types of aircraft. A new Category A licence is to be issued by CASA following completion of Certificate II studies and two years practical experience. It is not trade related or rated for particular aircraft. Category A licence holders will be able to perform minor maintenance functions of a similar nature to those currently performed by AMEs. Category A licence holders will have a limited ability to certify work.”


Mr Walton (another aviation expert), can you please explain to me just one thing. How does turning Aircraft Maintenance into a profession that no longer requires a Trade Certificate deliver more security to Qantas Engineers who can now be displaced by people off the street?

[Kiwiconehead]

The issue isn't whether

It is not trade related or rated for particular aircraft.

Which it is anyway

But it is a Licence

[AEROMEDIC]

Frankly, I would be VERY concerned for the poor Cat A AME who is under hammer after something for which he has certified has gone bad. There will no support from the employer Qantas, and the "blame train" will have departed from the station.
As for the AME unions, I suspect there will be plenty of vocal support, but no tangible relief from the pressure of CASA and Qantas. They haven't the experience or technical knowledge to defend successfully in court, nor will they have the passion.
It's understandable why an AME would want to become a Cat A when there's the prospect of extra cash, in the same way as an AME becomes a full LAME. When the latter happens, he or she has had an extensive course and accumulated a log of years of experience in all of the required tasks, takes on the RESPONSIBILITY of certification and begins to learn how to join all of these things together in earning his money. Cat A's are so different.
What I would like to see from the AME unions is a flow path/decision aid structure to deal with the inevitable "blame train" progress when things go pear shaped for Cat A holders. They sure as hell will need it.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

As you guys would understand. Our LAMEs are so professional, this is what will happen. A Cat A LAME will get himself in the poo and find that the AME unions aren't equipped to represent him. The LAMEs will provide the support and knowledge to help their Cat A brother out. LAMEs will help because it is in our nature to do so.

I know this will happen because there was a case in the 90's where there was a fatal crash. The AME was charged with man slaughter and abandoned by the AME unions. The ALAEA fully funded the defence of the AME even though he was not our member and we kept him out of jail.

We know many AMEs would like to join our union. You cannot yet but our rule change is before the courts in a few weeks.

[Jet-A-One]

Congrats to the AME unions! They've managed to provide their members with a career path... :ok:Unfortunately, as soon as they take a few steps, the path comes to a dead end. Once they get their "bolt-on" payment to "certify" that's as far as they will go, never to get a real licence.:ugh:

At least Paul will stop his members from leaving to join a professional association that will look after their best interests and those of the industry the they work in. Maybe he'll take Olivia out for dinner on the union Visa card to celebrate?:yuk:

[aveng]

Here is a bit of info for pilots

If your happy for a certificate 2 ame to look at AND sign out your a/c, put Nil in the tech log.

If you want a REAL Lame (with years of experience) to sign your RTS then put a snag in the tech log. 'A' licence holders CAN'T sign an RTS after a defect has been put in the log.:ok:

[Managers Perspective]

To keep context, these are what the CAT A licence holder could sign out, if fully trained to CASR requirements and competent at the task.

LIST

1. A pre-flight or daily inspection or an inspection that is equivalent to a pre-flight or daily inspection in the aircraft maintenance program.

2. Replacement of bulbs and lights.

3. Replacement of seats, if the replacement does not involve disassembly of any part of the primary structure of the aircraft.

4. Replenishment of a system fluid other than a gas.

5. Maintenance that is required for the application of a minimum equipment list if the maintenance does not involve any of the following:

(a) removal or disassembly of parts;

(b) disassembly of control systems;

(c) the use of special tools or equipment.

6. Maintenance required by an airworthiness directive, if the airworthiness directive permits a pilot licence holder or a flight engineer to carry out the maintenance.

MP

[SpannerTwister]

To keep context, these are what the CAT A licence holder could sign out, if fully trained to CASR requirements and competent at the task.

LIST

1. A pre-flight ...
2. Replacement of bulbs and lights.
3. Replacement of seats....
4. Replenishment of a system fluid other than a gas.
5. Maintenance ..application of a minimum equipment list if the maintenance does not involve ....
6. Maintenance...if the airworthiness directive permits a pilot licence holder or a flight engineer ...

I really need to keep on top of these things........

As I understood it, THIS PASTED BELOW is a list of what a Cat A licence holder can do....

Good to see CASA pruned this list down to just the SIX you quoted above?

Unless you've, well.....................

How about we let others judge ?

ST.

Appendix II
Category A licence tasks

Maintenance activities — authority in subcategory A1, A2, A3 or A4
This Appendix outlines the scope of authorisations that an AMO may issue to employees qualified under Part 66 of CASR 1998 as Category A, to perform maintenance certification and issue certificates of release to service.
1 Minor scheduled line maintenance, including a scheduled inspection or check, up to and including a weekly check:
(a) specified in the registered operator’s approved aircraft maintenance program; or
(b) if not specified in the registered operator’s approved aircraft maintenance program, which CASA considers is equivalent to a weekly check and lists in Part 66 guidance material.
2 Minor maintenance, including a pre-flight, transit or overnight check, ground handling, APU running and minimum equipment list (MEL) implementation as allowed by paragraph3 (p).
3 Minor scheduled line maintenance or simple defect rectification tasks:
(a) replacement of wheel assemblies; and
(b) replacement of wheel brake units; and
(c) replacement of emergency equipment; and
(d) replacement of ovens, boilers and beverage makers; and
(e) replacement of internal and external lights, filaments and flash tubes; and
(f) replacement of windscreen wiper blades; and
(g) replacement of passenger or cabin crew seats, seat belts and harnesses; and
(h) closing of cowlings and refitment of quick access inspection panels; and
(i) replacement of toilet system components, other than gate valves; and
(j) simple repair and replacement of internal compartment doors and placards, other than doors forming part of a pressure structure; and
(k) simple repair and replacement of overhead storage compartment doors and cabin furnishing items; and
(l) replacement of static wicks; and
(m) replacement of aircraft main and APU batteries; and
(n) replacement of in-flight entertainment system components, other than public address; and
(o) routine lubrication and replenishment of system fluids and gases; and
(p) implementation of a registered operator’s MEL, including deactivation of subsystems and aircraft components as permitted by the MEL, if the MEL application is one that CASA approves as a simple task; and
(q) replacement of any other component for an aircraft type if the task is one that CASA approves as a simple task; and
(r) For a helicopter only:
(i) removal or installation of the following:
(A) simple medical equipment carried inside a helicopter used for emergency medical services;
(B) external cargo provisions (for example, external hook, mirrors), excluding the hoist;
(C) quick release external cameras and search lights;
(D) emergency float bags, excluding the bottles;
(E) external doors fitted with quick release attachments;
(F) snow pads, skid wear shoes or slump protection pads; and
(ii) removal, inspection and re-installation of chip detectors, including on inspection “go” or “no go” decision on chip or fuzz or swarf; and
(iii) folding or deploying rotor blades if:
(A) handling instructions permit folding for storage; and
(B) ground support equipment is available; and
(iv) visual inspection or tap test of rotor blades; and
(v) minor repairs, including stop drilling and bonding, to acrylic or Perspex windscreens.

[NWT]

Good luck to all now that the companies have got their way......you are following a few years behind the EU.....and what a slippery slope it is. Standards are now lower, cost lower for the airline which is what they want, and the value of you (now) B1 B2 licence has diminished. Companies will reduce right down the numbers of B1 and B2, licence holders, especially B2 as the full B1 will cover a lot of what the B2 traditionally did on the ramp. those who say thiswont happen (even the airlines say it) need to look at the EU to see the truth.
But the light at the nd of the tunnel (if there is any) is that the chances are QF etc will get rid of so many engineers that things start to fall apart. Just have a close look at BA in the UK to see what has happened. They are now desperate to get engineers !!

[Managers Perspective]

My error.

That list is what a pilot could sign out, if fully trained to CASR requirements and competent at the task.

MP

[Bagus]

If line engineers are going to loose jobs,ALAEA better start to get Qantas to do more heavy maintenance check in Australia than going offshore.
Start by saving Avalon heavy maintenance.

[600ft-lb]

If line engineers are going to loose jobs,ALAEA better start to get Qantas to do more heavy maintenance check in Australia than going offshore.
Start by saving Avalon heavy maintenance.

Since when has the ALAEA had any influence on management decisions ? The ALAEA has about as much influence on that decision and santa clause does.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Since when has the ALAEA had any influence on management decisions ? The ALAEA has about as much influence on that decision and santa clause does.

True. Management will just do what they want and unfortunately, many of those wider decisions are being made by former Ansett managers who sent that airline down the tube.

[aveng]

To keep context, these are what the CAT A licence holder could sign out, if fully trained to CASR requirements and competent at the task.

Sorry Managers perspective but your wrong quoting what CASR's allow. QF has introduced it's own "A authorisation" which doesn't even require a person to hold an "A licence". Qantas policy manual Easa 'style' licence scope bears little resemblance to the Casr document.:ugh:

[CAVEDWELLER]

Aveng Do you comprehend the difference between your and you are (you're)?

[Pterois Volitans]

I understand there is a 21 day period when the ALAEA can appeal against the decision handed down by the FWA regarding the AME EBA. :\
I hope at least they give it a shot!!!

PV

[tgbgtgb]

Because a typo or a grammatical error really changes the context or meaning of the post.

[AEROMEDIC]

Aveng Do you comprehend the difference between your and you are (you're)?

CAVEDWELLER,

It's a bit rich for you to pick up someone for a typo. Here's a couple of points for you to mull over.
1.Your user name being one word instead of two.
2. A comma should have been used after "Aveng", with no Capital "D" for "do" If you had used a full stop, "Aveng" would have been a one word sentence.
3, It's "aveng", not "Aveng".

You know what they say about "people who live in glass houses",don't you?

Just stick to the thread.

[Silverado]

So have all the CAT A training slots been awarded?

[Ngineer]

Sounds like it.

Some very interesting times ahead for these guys. I guess you could call them the Guinea Pigs.

Not sure if I would like to be in their shoes.

(PS, please excuse any shortcomings in my spellin or grandma).

[Boeing buster]

Recently informed new QF Cat A training involves some applicants eligible for the courses being taught to add and subtract without a calculator.
Who the hell have they really got in mind for this training in the future ? Con the Fruitier maybe.

[Jacana]

Don't blame the AME's. Its not 20yrs ago where you get licenced 2yrs out of your time. I think the LAMES need to put themselves in the AME's position. They are underpaid and any type of training is better than none. Of course they would rather get a proper full licence but they would be stupid to knock back Cat A training... or overtime too for that matter. Its a lot easier for a LAME to knock back OT than it is for a young AME with a mortgage ect.
Lets just keep the focus on the company and the dumbing down of engineering, but understand the position an AME is put in. I have personally heard many Lame's say openly they don't want to see anymore ame's trained up and licence courses should go to current licence holders. What do you think the Ame's think of that?

[unionist1974]

I've heard from good sources that a Full Bench has rejected an appeal by the ALAEA against the metals EBA. Well done the Full Bench:p

[genxfrog]

Rumour that ALAEA legal appeal against AME Unions Qantas EBA was thrown out by FW Commission recently.....anyone able to confirm?

[Workers Perspective]

Lames expected to train the Cat A's, sign their experience books, and then the Cat A's make the Lames redundant. :=

Only solution is to get the Cat A's into the ALAEA, but looks like that's not gonna happen. :yuk:

What should the Lames do, support this experiment or not? :confused:

[empire4]

Experiment? This is going to happen my friend. I personally will not be signing anything that the guy did not do 100% and if he make sone deviation from the MM he'll have a blank page.

This is a joke. We have to sign, its our job, but I'll make it damn hard!

[Jacana]

Its a big mess. The company has put everyone in a hard position and is causing segregation between the workforce.

[Pappa Smurf]

Just curious,
What is the percentage of AME,s to LAME,s on a roster.
I gather if the AME does the job,then the LAMEs check to see if alls ok then sign off.
If a LAME does the job he can sign off but what if he had a bad day,does another LAME check.

I gather the AME,s doing this aren't fresh on the floor,and had many years doing such tasks.

[Silverado]

This is a joke. We have to sign, its our job, but I'll make it damn hard!

Where does it say I have to sign an experience book?

Apparently A License holders aren't LAMEs just AMEs with a license. It stands to reason that if they are not becoming LAMEs, then its got nothing to do with LAMEs.

Let the AMEs sort themselves out, since thats what the company wants.

[LongTimeInCX]

SpannerTwister and Empire4 - spot on.

As a 'driver, airframes, for the use of', the passengers and I ultimately bear the brunt of where penny pinching schemes like this allow the holes in the cheese to line up, an aircraft and occupants end up in kit form, and for what?
A few dollars and someone elses climb up the managerial pole?

Having seen a system where the experienced incumbents were expected to train their cheaper, less experienced and less credentialled replacements, it does not work well. Even those that get through are sent off with mental fingers crossed behind ones back.

However, it sounds like you will enforce standards where 99% is not good enough, and for that, I for one as a driver am grateful.
The LAMEs we encounter route wide are in general experienced, capable and trustworthy, which sadly can not be said for many of the other 'trades' we are required to deal with while trying to get our passengers from A to B safely.

Clearly we have a vested interest in you keeping engineering standards high, long may they stay so.
Should your union be making this cheap skate standards erosion more public through the media so that passengers know their lives are likely to be more at risk than at present?

[Kiwiconehead]

LongTimeInCX

Unfortunately the public thinks LAMEs all earn $160k a year and do nothing thanks to the publicity from a few tame media organisations and flat out lies that where postulated dur8ng the last LAMEs wage negotiations by management.

I support Steve and the rest of the ALAEA executive 100% in what they are trying to achieve.

I dont work for Qantas, I dont actually have a permanent job any more but am a contractor because that is what the industry wants now. I would love to have a job where I can drive my car from my house to work and home every day, instead of locking it in the garage for months while I chase the work.

[Jacana]

Looks like its all too late now. Evolve or become extinct it seems