half Way through April and no-one cares.

[donpizmeov]

I would like to congratulate the EK management team on being able to have a work force that now care less than themselves. I would have thought this hard to do when the deliveries and upgrades keep happening at record rates.
Mid way through April and no-one cares about the "profit Cher" and there are no optimists re pay rise.

A job well done.

The Don

[Wizofoz]

Different time, Don.

In 2007 they had a big problem with attrition and an almost empty applicant pool- now half of the pilots in Europe and MOST of the pilots in the rest of the world are beating down their door, and ALMOST no-one is leaving.

Pendulums swinging and all that...

[Laker]

Wiz,

That should not matter. The recruitment presentation and pilot contract state that 25% of the profit above the target shall be paid out to the employees as profit share. It doesn't say the formula is inversely based on how many people are interested in working for EK.

[thatwasclose]

That's funny I was just coming to ask why there was no thread on profit share! Half way through the month and no announcement on when there will be an announcement on the announcement . I find this pretty grim. I keep hearing of bad news emitting from the office type people, hiring freeze similar to the 09 troubles. Can this be true? Can we really not met the target after the first 6 months went so well and our planes are pretty damn packed!

[Wizofoz]

Laker,

And so it shall be.

The question wasn't what is going to happen, it was why aren't we talking about it!!

[Rim-job]

That's what happens when they beat you down, work you 95+ hours, give you minimum days off and tell you that we aren't making money (yet every plane I fly is full of pax)...

Guys are frustrated, exhausted and tired of getting their hopes up... only to be followed by disappointment.

:ugh:

[max AB]

I was following all the rumours of the Cher...hoping for some insider tip on what it might be but then something happened that made me not care anymore..... the flash new uniform!!! Why do you guys want cash when you are getting a stripy tie and a golden hat band...talk about hard to please..? Still not as rewarding as oven mitts but what to do??

[kingpost]

The so called profit share has always been a little subdued ever since you got the 380's, are they hurting the airline?

They're managing expectations guys - you may be pleasantly surprised yet......or may not!

[Ketek400]

16 weeks.....going to be the biggest one ever!

[Arcla]

11 weeks.

Feeling optimistic. Not sure why....

[Oblaaspop]

If you'd have asked me a few months ago, I'd have said 5% and 10 weeks.... Now however, I think we'd be lucky to get the 3% increment and 2 weeks!!

A lot of negative rhetoric coming from the offices of power for some reason!

As many have said, the flights seem to be full to brimming as is evidenced by the fact that my in-laws should have gone home last week but are still here due to there being absolutely no free seats in ANY class to London...... Aaarrrrrghhhh:sad:

I realise that some will mention the 'yield' argument. BUT, surely if a flight is full and we don't make a profit on that flight then someone isn't doing their job properly!!!

In any case as I have said in years gone by, there are only 3 people in this airline that actually know what the finances are doing and frankly it isn't any of us and nor would any of those 3 men divulge that info to anyone you know, so I guess we'll just have to wait another couple of weeks....

[harry the cod]

Well, if the yields are down, why? Just random searches on line reveals we're often more expensive than other airlines so where's the money going?

The day we announced we're contributing to the Bernie Eccelstone's personal fortune did I give up hope of profit share. He's a crook with 2 very spoilt and over rated daughters who themselves are now benefitting financially off the backs of all our hard work and effort. One sponsorship deal i'm not in agreement with.

Zero is my guess...... and I'd be bloody pissed off if proven true.

Harry

[Dropp the Pilot]

Pretty hard to make a profit when you are saddled with something as egregiously inefficient and unreliable as an A380. Fortunately we got ours for next-to-free and are in receipt of lots of Airbus cash in the form of performance/delivery/wing repair penalty money.

I wonder how the airlines who actually paid for them are doing? You could be guided by the number of orders I suppose.

[mini cooper]

I think there was a bit of interest in the bonus just after Christmas, but unfortunately apathy plus negativity coming from EGHQ drove away most peoples dreams/hopes.

I know from my years here that we never get what we hope for working at EK, so expect nothing and you won't be disappointed!

(was going to go on a rant about office wallahs living in a bubble etc, then how can we ever get a positive vibe going at EK but then decided it was not worth the hassle - apathy attack I suppose!)

Fingers crossed
:)

[Wizofoz]

Think of what we could achieve if we all did that!

Smaller profits and thus a smaller profit share??

[Dropp the Pilot]

A literary device educational video...

Blackadder The Third - Irony (Slovenian subs) - YouTube

[Wizofoz]

I DID catch the satirical nature of Outlaws post, Dropp.

[Panther 88]

Please correct me if I am incorrect, but didn't the "airline that can't be mentioned (atcbm) get some bonus/profit Cher, along with Fly Dubai, and Qatar? Even some U.S. airlines are distributing bonuses/P.S. We know how important "image" is around here. So how would that enhance the all important image. I guess I do know the answer, as stated.....NEW UNIFORMS. And the possiblity of a World Expo seven years from now.

Lower the expectations and the minions will be pleased with crumbs.

[Payscale]

There will be Bonuses but no profit share. Thats my guess

[MrMachfivepointfive]

The announcement has always been after 20.04. In 2005 it has been on 27.04. - the day of the A380's maiden. Why the hurry this time?

[Payscale]

How do you remember stuff like that...

[scandistralian]

I am fairly sure Fly Dubai and the major operators out of OMAA, OTBD and OMSJ all received bonuses.

We all have a fair idea of how the company faired financially this year, in my opinion there are only two people in the company who know, and determine what kind of bonus (not profit share) there will be; Sheikh Ahmed and Tim Clark.

Much has been achieved in the last 12 months, and the airline has further positioned itself for sustainable future success in the ever recovering market. The amount received will be a clear barometer of how our leaders value our efforts, not only for contributing to the performance of the company over the last year, but also for what they have done to guarantee the future success of Emirates.

[Oblaaspop]

Dropp, you mention that we got the A380's for 'Next to free'. May I ask where you got that incredibly commercially sensitive info from? This is the kind of info that only the very top level of airline and manufacturer management are party to.

For this reason I can only assume that you are indeed either TC or HH. Therefore, please put us out of our misery and let us know what the profit share (PBUH) is going to be? Cheers.

..........

Think about it buddy, do you honestly think that a manufacturer would 'give away' aircraft AND pay hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation to boot? Do you really think a bank would lend EK money for a free aircraft?

The point being, if you don't have anything useful to contribute, then please spare us the effort of reading your posts..... Thanks:ok:

[GoreTex]

seriously dropp, do you believe the **** you post?

[MrMachfivepointfive]

That's blasphemie...
profit share (PBUH)
...I think.
But I luv it.

[fringhtok]

Blasphemie- the victimless crime..........

[ekwhistleblower]

4 weeks and 3%. I heard it from the TBF cleaner tending the mothballed portacabins kept at a secret location near the secret airbase.......

Has all morale officially been crushed?!?

[fatbus]

Morale , what's that?

[Schnowzer]

Fair point!

[The Turtle]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRm7EdjKiV2o7d9kJ7CcwYaQ_7GhL7Sf3VThVbuLPE j2xcApzCr

[Saltaire]

increment ( 3%) and 6 weeks…. now back to work!

[donpizmeov]

If there is nothing other than the increment the top pay group go without again. Rember the increment isn't a pay rise.

The don. .

[Trader]

As of today---mgmt has directed pilots that are in OT will have flights pulled.

[Mr Good Cat]

As of today---mgmt has directed pilots that are in OT will have flights pulled.

I'm not a management apologist in any way at all, but isn't this to be considered as a good thing?

We all moan about working 100 hours a month so being made to work less is not something we can really complain about now is it? I'm happy to sacrifice the $$$$ for a better lifestyle (yes, I know up to 92 hrs is still tough - just making a point).

[Trader]

Cat-- I agree completely!!!

Of course, they will pull a flight, leave you on AD and call you for a series of night flights with low hours. Not sure which is worse!!

[helen-damnation]

I'm not a management apologist in any way at all, but isn't this to be considered as a good thing?

Not always! I was rostered 91+, swapped a flight which put me on 92. All quite "legal" in the EK rules. Now my top bid flight (to see family) has been taken!

They could have easily given notice & started this next month :ugh:

If we are that desperate for the money, it sends a bad message to the outside world & presumably kills off any hope for a profit share :mad:

[777-200LR]

Should i give a nasty sarcastic response or just log off and return to playing with the kids?

The days of 14 week profit shares are long gone. The airline is way too big now to dish out that kind of money, regardless of how much profit we make. There are too many variables these days (closure of one of DXB's rwys, fuel prices always seems to be mentioned on every update, Hello Qantas, new uniform, holding, := factoring, A380s, earthquake 20 mins ago etc etc........). There will always be a reason to safe guard most of the money made rather than share it to 53,285 employees.

3% and 4 weeks

We'll see

[helen-damnation]

I'm led to believe that FlyDubai got 3 weeks and Etihad (Shhhhh) got 4.

Saving face would argue 3-4 weeks :hmm:

[Fearless Leader]

The :mad: that run this zoo will never let it happen.

Lucky you have a Job!
Now back to work you slackers!

[BurDubaiBob]

flydubai got the following announcement from their CEO:
.... to acknowledge the efforts of the flydubai team in achieving the successful launch of the airline and its first full year of profitability in 2012, it is my pleasure to inform you that our Chairman, HH Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum, has announced a special one-time profit share payout of three (3) weeks of basic pay to all current team members who have been in service with flydubai for at least six (6) months as of 31 December 2012.
And they introduced a Profit Share Scheme for financial year 2013.

[falconeasydriver]

I care, I care deeply, it's just I keep getting distracted by the rain! 4 nights out of 7 this last week and we've had rain, is this a top floor conspiracy to keep us distracted?
It's working...

[Hansol]

I hope you guys don't believe the PR that the airline actually makes money! Emirates group is a very different animal to Emirates airline.

[Oblaaspop]

Thanks for your rather strange post Wet (an apt handle BTW undoubtedly decribing both your personality and handhake).

For the record I actually agree that it is likely that Airbus are indeed offering 'sweetners and incentives' to encourage EK and others to buy the A380. Just as Boeing are likely to be offering the same for the pile of poo that is the B787....

However, only the termanally stupid would call someone dumb that was rebuffing- with logic - the assertion that EK has recieved its A380 fleet flor 'next to nothing' and has yet received compensation for the same!

If you do indeed believe Dropps post to be factual and accurate then I truly pity you and encourage you to regroup and have a long hard look at whether this is a sensible assumption for a person with an IQ greater than 3.

I suspect though, that having re-read Dropps post and then my rebbutal that you do actually agree with me - the sad thing is though I very much doubt you will admit that.

In conclusion then my moist little friend, I can only assume that for whatever reason, you wish to pick a fight? I therefore graciously accept your proposal..... My only request is that we do it through private message as I feel it would be unfair on our PPrune colleagues to have to trudge through it all.

[TangoUniform]

I am glad we do have a new moderator here in O....... (I have no clue as to what that name is or should suggest). But in fact it is common knowledge that Airbus has gone out of their way to make EK a very happy customer. Missed the announcement on our "ordering" the A319s being put into, how shall we say, service.

Just want to run this post by you there Capt. O. Hope it's ok.:ok:
Miss SI's (aka, Mensaboy) rants here. I hope our new mod. didn't scare him off. We should all be aware that there are some who are just a bit closer to the center of the universe than the rest of us minions. We should be humbled and know our places.

Still no word on the Cher. Insert the sound of crickets here.

[Craggenmore]

Today's news from the horse racing world might not help general goodwill :(

[Pixy]

The terms Profit Share and Bonus seem to be poorly understood and randomly interchanged.

Profit Share simply does not happen here anymore. It once did in one context of the word but was latterly distorted as a means to incentivize the decision makers. There is no possible interpretation of “sharing” in the way it is both decided and distributed. “Profit Allocation” might be more correct.

Bonuses however are given despite alleged “Profit Sharing”. These are contrived in various ways but applicable only to the loftier title holders.

The Bonus culture here is not dissimilar to the bonus culture that almost brought the world’s financial system to a complete meltdown. By this I mean that individual decision makers are driven to make decisions and take risks that enhance their year by year bonus at the expense of caution with regard to what their actions may result in for the company, particularly in the longer term which is generally of more interest to some stakeholders who often have their whole family dependent on these decisions for this much longer period. I assume because the myopic mid level decision makers anticipate having their bonus safely banked outside the country by the time the consequences become apparent.

The shorter term is covered by various methods of devolving responsibility or putting in place methods of deniability. There are many examples of this ranging from FRMS to a plethora of publications distributed electronically that allow the publishers to claim that advice and instruction was adequately given.

However, I believe that in covering their own particular area they fail to appreciate the others who are covering theirs with the result that the sheer volume received would be argued by any competent lawyer as inadequate, at times contradictory, and too prolific for anyone to reasonably absorb. Furthermore issues as to what is absolutely required, how that is differentiated from the deluge of information and the time allocated to dealing with this and the many other requirements of the organization is vague to say the least.

Like many corporations the focus is solely on profits and the managers are so indoctrinated that their mantra and behavior is entirely absorbed by this. The other issues that should also be core to any corporation like stakeholder concerns and external perception are being obscured. Ultimately this neglect has to come home to roost. Hence the word corporation now has a sinister connotation. It was never meant to be this way, rather a collaboration of people and skills brought together for the greater good of all.

In the pursuit of the greater profit, limits are continually pushed and often unreasonably so. Sadly one area of stretched limits is often not known or accounted for by those seeking to extend another limit. This results in all areas approaching limits. An analogy in the technical area of the industry would be “coffin corner”, a confluence of limits that is aptly named. I wonder if the powers that be have considered where they may be with the company as a whole, despite making cases and justifying the individual areas where they have whittled away to the narrowest of margins and used limits as targets.

For a company focused on data and obsessed with statistics they are very selective as to the data and statistics that they collect. It is seldom objective rather more in line with a desire to justify or support a point of view, often with the thinly veiled intention of pandering to the bonus culture. Pure logical reasoning and the lack of adequate response to queries shows the statistics, the methodology of collection and the conclusions drawn, to be flawed and definitely not up for debate. There are so many examples of this that illustration would require a thesis.

Profit share or Bonus, whatever you prefer to call these two animals will be whatever is decided by those who govern most aspects of your life. Nonetheless don’t search for rhyme, reason or any measure of fair play. That is a fool’s errand.

Perhaps more relevant will be the salary review. Data shows that here Real Salaries, in effect their purchase power, have continually diminished for the past decade and a half. A year by year analysis of the increases on the salary scale which has 30 steps shows that at any chosen step the salary has fallen well behind the published inflation and the cost of various basic commodities. An illustration would be the price of oil which has quadrupled over the time in question whereas any particular step has not even doubled. It’s poignant as the price of oil reflects in many areas and is often cited to us by our leaders as a major cause of concern! As if we need reminding!

I just wish they had been as concerned about this effect on us, as they were about its effect on the business. At least acknowledgement would be respected. Clearly the stakeholder is worth much less than the shareholder and is almost resented by the bonus seeker. QED.

[Fearless Leader]

For a company focused on data and obsessed with statistics they are very selective as to the data and statistics that they collect. It is seldom objective rather more in line with a desire to justify or support a point of view, often with the thinly veiled intention of pandering to the bonus culture. Pure logical reasoning and the lack of adequate response to queries shows the statistics, the methodology of collection and the conclusions drawn, to be flawed and definitely not up for debate. There are so many examples of this that illustration would require a thesis.

Just remember:
There are Three kinds of lies.

"There are lies
Damn lies
And Statistics!"

British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli

[nolimitholdem]

@ Pixy:

http://s15.postimg.org/6ik4gsn6j/citizen_cane.gif

Sure a hell of a lot better than the bile that Obblepoop or whatever his name is spews.

[White Knight]

Sure a hell of a lot better than the bile that Obblepoop or whatever his name is spews.

And you don't post sh1te either???? Along with your buddy dropp:hmm::hmm:

[White Knight]

unreliable as an A380

And on what basis do you come up with this little gem?

[nolimitholdem]

*yawn*

White Knight, silly keniggit, defender of the EK realm. Hope the "bonus" is worth it.

[Desert Dawg]

@Pixy,

Your post is a breath of fresh air here on PPRuNe. Well written, logical and credible.

Your points apply to MANY corporations/companies/organisations today.

Well written Sir..!

[halas]

It's all smoke and mirrors.

This year it will be more smoke than mirrors :rolleyes:

halas

[marck_c]

Reading these forums it never ceases to amaze. Many of you guys complain and bash the "incompetent" managment in the UAE. Did you guys ever stop to to think that without these "incompetents" running these "third rate" airlines, most of you would have no jobs flying state of the art airliners, and living in quite comfortable villas, earning more money than the majority of the pilots in the world. Think about it, life could be a lot worse, and for most pilots in the world it is.

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

After Qantas stabilises its A380 Flight service into Dubai, code share, alliance or whatever its being christened as, EK will loose out on revenues; and that's going to affect the Profit Share this Year.

Besides, someone needs to pay the fuel bill for the flyby in down-under; and looks like its us(!)

[Mach_Krit]

its awfully quiet...

[captainsmiffy]

Bonus.....? Its that bloody notebook left in my dropbox, mark my words....!!!

[oz in dxb]

No news is good news.............or bad

[lospilotos]

Looking through old PPRuNe posts it looks like the announcements of the announcements were usually done early May... So I agree, so far no news = potentially good news

[Praise Jebus]

Smiffy did we all get a note book or do we have to share yours?

[donpizmeov]

PJ. It seems if you received the oven gloves in previous years you miss out on the notebook.
However the next pay neutral pay cut should sort out the next profit target. How good is that?

The Don.

[Yarra]

Marck C is on the money.......and no bone is most likely the result....

[Praise Jebus]

Well I hope the notepad is flame proof as my oven mitts died years ago....200 chips you say....worth every dirham.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

A PAPER notebook? An iPad in each mailbox together with a note of thanks would have been more appropriate.

[fatbus]

Prepare to be disappointed!

[captainsmiffy]

To quote 'the management' from todays wash-up......."although we dont officially know, the vibe is that there will be no bonus this year....."

Guess the notebook/ovengloves quip might have been close to the truth! Oooops!

[HighLow]

looking on with interest from a land afar, however guys its big picture stuff!

Open to correction(and no doubt corrections will soon follow), but I recall the Emirates Group (after the first six months of the financial year) posted extremely positive half-yearly results, (2.1 billion dirhams) and compared with the target for the financial year, they had already made 60% of this target, all before traditionally what is their busiest period (Oct - Mar).

Loads, Yields, the terms go on and on... , HOWEVER from speaking to your fellow colleagues, the flights have been absolutely STUFFED with pax and cargo for that matter!! (including 5 flights to London Daily!!)

And nobody has even had a go at guessing, well I am off to the Bookies : Expert Prediction (anyones best guess); Annual Profit 4.6 billion dirhams; exceeeding your target by 30%, enjoy your bonus everyone, if ya fancy sending some of it to Europe, it won't go to waste!

there will always be a few skeptics, and of course the interweb does attract them in droves, but looking at the numbers, and especially when considering the competition of legacy airlines in the Middle East, from the neutral, it does look like EK staff will get well rewarded for their hard work over the last 12 months.


And to correct some earlier posts;
25th April with no financial results posted IS rather late for EK;
if you take the time to read the archives,(which I have just done), you will find, traditionally they announce their results mid-april, and any bonus announcements done early May ( as pointed out); so two different dates, and EK seem late on the first,
Two Possible Scenarios
1) Bad News OR
2) They have so much money, its taking ages for them to count it ALL !

Best of Luck to ya !

[lospilotos]

Slight thread drift but...

I hear captains "complaining" about the fact that they are on the highest payscale. Myself, as a FO I've never heard about a payscale and there is nothing in my contract about that. So, are there fixed payscales that you jump up every year, regardless of other salary adjustments?

[Payscale]

Didnt you negotiate salary and T&Cs when you started? Oh boy! now you are stuck...

[lospilotos]

S**t, I knew there was something I forgot to do...

But seriously Payscale, I think you know something about this and perhaps you are in a position to give a proper answer? (And it´s not just your login name that makes me think that...)

[Wizofoz]

los,

It's not contractual (at least not any more) but most years EK has granted pilots a 3% pay increase- that is on top (or sometimes instead of) any increase in base salary, so longer serving pilots DO earn more then new hires. It does top out (is it after 10 years? I'm not sure exactley), so after a while you are on top whack and don't get any more increments.

One glaring inequity is that when an FO gets his upgrade, he goes onto Captains BASE salary regardless of how long he's been in the company.

[Instant Hooligan]

Wiz,
I believe when an F/O upgrades he advances 10 steps.
So a 3 year 777 f/o would advance to step 13 where as an airbus f/o who upgrades at year 5 would then advance to step 15 essentially joining the 777 guy on the same scale albeit missing out on 2 years skipper pay.

[Pixy]

Perhaps the Flight Deck Salary scales need to be clarified.

The current setup was introduced after a major salary structure overhaul in 1996

There are 30 Steps. They are appropriately named Step 1 to Step 30. There used to be 29 but another step was added in May 2002 when the mandatory retirement age was increased from 60 to 65

A call to HR will reveal where you are on the scale. It is not a secret. The whole scale however is a secret.

It was not always so. Up until 2004 it was published with all pay reviews. It is unclear why it became classified however it is relatively easy to work out current and previous scales and there are various unofficial scales available.
Each step is 3% above the step below. Step 1 is where a first year FO will begin. It is approx 25300.

Theoretically each year everyone goes up a step. This is in recognition for loyalty, experience etc. In earlier years this step was automatic. Latterly it became discretionary. Most years the step has been awarded. Some years it was not awarded however the whole scale was increased. For example in 2009 there was no step and no increase to the whole scale. In 2010 there was no step but the whole scale increased 6%.

By periodically increasing the whole scale, inflation in theoretically addressed. Practically, however it is not. More on that later.

A FO upgrading to Captain jumps up 12 steps, I believe. It used to be 10. I may need correction here. There is a ceiling however for FO’s on the scale. An FO will not reach step 30 by simply remaining in the company 30 years.

Likewise any captain who attains Step 30 will not get any pay increase if the Step of 3% is awarded at a pay review. Of course if the whole scale is increased say 5% then Step 30 will increase by 5%.

If we are fortunate this year there will be both a Scale Increase and a Step will also be awarded. Thus cost of living increases are addressed and loyalty and long service are rewarded.

Since the introduction of the 30 Step scale in 1996, Hourly Flying Pay was also introduced in 2007. Prior to this the basic salary was paid regardless of hours flown unless the productivity threshold of 81/84 hours in a 30/31 day month was crossed. Then productivity was awarded. Standby and Biannual simulator was credited to productivity and there was a minimum threshold of 3.5 hours for any daily duty. Even a leave day was credited at 2.5 hours to avoid a roster being packed to fatigue levels following leave.

Hence the various reviews that both whittled away at what could be counted as a credit hour and the increase to a 92 hour productivity threshold has been a contentious and bitter issue.

Basically to affect a pay cut a company has two options. Pay less for the same work or demand more work for the same pay. The former has never happened here. The latter has been enthusiastically embraced.

Though a pay cut has never occurred here, the real value of the pay scale has diminished considerably. This has happened throughout the industry.
To illustrate: Step 1 on the scale was Dhs 16,000 in 1998 (15 Years ago) today it is 25,300. If we include 3,375 for flying pay at 45 AED per hour for 75 hours (the monthly average for a 900 hour year), this becomes Dhs 28,675. (No flying pay in 1998)

So in 15 years Step 1 has increased by 79% assuming a 900 hour year.

In the same time:


The price of Oil has increased from approx $19 per barrel to$ 93. A 389% increase.
The price of Gold has increased from $250 to $1462. A 485% increase.
Even the very conservative official inflation figures for food over the same period show an increase of 150%

So while salaries have not been cut, they have been allowed to be eroded by inflation.

Summing it all up then true pay for each hour of work had been dropping alarmingly for a decade and a half.

It’s unlikely to stop this year, if ever. Sadly we a can all expect longer hours with less earnings. It’s the new world order as bigger corporate profits are demanded.

Some tell me I am lucky to have a good job and good pay. Its true I guess but no real joy can be taken as year after year one becomes worth less. Taken to the extreme, of course, but the question must be asked: Will we all be saying we are lucky when we can still afford 2 meals a day but our colleagues in other airlines can only afford one?

Personally I would prefer the spoils of corporate success to be distributed a little more evenly among those who work hard to achieve them.

[helen-damnation]

Good post Pixy :D

[Wizofoz]

I dis-agree, helen.

It was a GREAT post!!

Thanks Pixy

[donpizmeov]

Check the EK forum re pay scale steps.

The Don

[lospilotos]

Pixy, it's posts like this that make me think there is hope for PPRuNe after all...

Super post, thanks!

[Saltaire]

That's the story Pixy; the complete picture. BTW, it is a 10 step increase from FO to Capt. The inflation years in Dubai of 2004-2008 with decent pay increases basically saved us from much lower conditions, although as mentioned we are still falling behind.

No word yet on the bonus/ pay review? Should be this week

[lospilotos]

A previous poster suggested that not having the yearly result out by this time was late for EK. Looking at the 3 last years the financial statements have been signed by the auditor in the final days of April or first days of May. Hopefully we'll know this week...

[alwayzinit]

We have this every year. How many weeks etc etc etc.

The Profit Share formula is set down in black and white.

Yes the profit figure can be frigged, however, the company have always awarded the share IAW the formula, as long as the profit target has been reached.

I am not trying to defend the company but can we all move on and stop having Groundhog year every flipping April.

[fatbus]

There is profit share and there are bonus's. Pilots get profit share and some, VP and above, get both.

[767200ER]

Just having a browse through this thread and something is bugging me, i see guys starting to whinge and moan about EK, an airline your probably joined leaving worse and worsening conditions in other companies (i'm assuming you applied for the job there, did the interview and possibly moved your whole life to the middle east?). When you got there it was probably better than anything you had ever experienced in an airline nowadays...

Roll on a few years and you start to find the perceived cracks... i call them perceived because perception is unique to the individual. i.e you may be complaining about a profit share payout but the next guy who left his last airline because it went bankrupt is happy that he gets any pay check on time!

I'm only just over 2 years in aviation but i'm far from naive or wearing rose tinted glasses, and if this post is in the wrong place i apologise but i found it fitting because EK has long been regarded by my collegues as the "go to place" for a number of reasons and many of them have taken the plunge, if you compare the contract they had where i am now with what they have at EK its night and day.

My question is, are we, as pilots, Greedy? Even when we have a lot, we bitch and moan and want more, not taking into consideration all the other things we have...

No i'm not a management troll or whatever, i am just genuinely concerned that we are un-satisfiable.

Have i missed something?

[Arcla]

Seriously - you really do live in paradise....

I worked my ass off to get the job I have and earn what it do. Just because the next guy doesn't earn what we do doesn't mean we can't strive for better or resist an erosion of what we have.

Do you honestly have no respect for yourself?

[Schnowzer]

:D200boy. Wife, 3 kids, need to have a base in both DXB and home country, need to cover bills, schooling etc...apart from that you didn't miss anything.

I thought getting paid $12000 in 1984 made me king of the hill, but then all I had to buy was beer. If you follow your line of thinking let's all work for nothing and wear nifty commie suits. It's not greed its about ending up where you were told you would be rather than having T&Cs eroding continually.

[drop kick]

Yes 200ER

Think its called "the boat"

Well said Schnowzer

[Oldaircrew]

I think the problem is more what has been taken away rather than what we have. Also, since the Melbourne incident, there seems to have been a definite shift in managements thinking and behaviour.

[single chime]

200er, what's the difference between our "greed" (the front line employees asking for their part of the profit as written in the employee handbook) and the bonus' + profit share (if any) of the office types? Their salaries have exploded in the last couple years but I guess that would not count as "greed", right?

[fliion]

762 ...Yes again..

That job on the 73NG in Indonesia where you pay them $30k for the first 500 hours....

Throw a few bags in the hold on the walk around while you're at it..

; >

fliiongreedy

ps while we are waiting on the "loose change" number...too early to start the "wangker season" thread?

[FUSE PLUG]

762,

Surely you remember learning about Economic Scarcity in grade school... If not Google it, have a close read, then come back on this thread and apologize to everyone here for calling them greedy.

I respect that you have been flying for two years, and I'm sure that you have learned a great deal in the process; however, I have been flying for decades and work in one of the most demanding and unforgiving flight ops environments in the world. We regulalry fly to all six continents on the globe and do so with maximum productivity, and efficency to our employer. We've earned our fair share and we expect it. Run along now.

[adolf hucker]

Really?? You've been flying for decades and this is one of the most challenging environments? You need to get out more.

I've been doing this long-haul caper for less than 2 years (and not for much longer, thankfully). It is, without doubt, the least challenging (and best rewarded) job I have done in 22 years of flying. Flying a highly automated aircraft to about 6 radar-vectored ILS's a month is not tricky. My previous job - flying 4 sectors a day in crappy weather to 100 destinations served by precision, non-precision and circling approaches was challenging.

The problem with pilots who have been wide-body for too long is that they really start to believe all the cabin crew and ground staff who treat them like sky gods. By all means take the cash and enjoy the lifestyle, but let's not pretend the job is difficult. Tiring, tedious, unhealthy - yes. Difficult - no.

Most guys I fly with now would soil themselves if they had to do a circling approach.

[fliion]

Re. the 1st line of your second para:

You can tell.

f.

[disconnected]

Adolf

Check your target audience. Some fleets at EK do all the approach types you mention plus a few more.

I also get to see how good the majority are at actually doing it. Throw in a few problems and suddenly even the old ILS gets challenging and many dont make it look too pretty.

I don't think too many pilots here believe the demi-god thing. They get continually bashed in so many ways that a superiority complex would quickly vaporise.

I think you miss the point of the thread. No one likes a downwardly mobile salary. Should we be grateful for that? Fact of the world today is that executive salaries go up while most others decline. If you are happy with this status quo then give a thought for the next generation, maybe your kids. Just pray they get to executive level because if the trend continues they will be mere peasants laboring for the elite.

Look forward to seeing your stuff in the sim...

[cadidalhopper]

Spot on Adolf...

At what destinations is EK doing circling approaches?

[fliion]

Where in FUSE PLUGs post did he say the "demands" had anything to do with the approaches we fly....wake up....presumably you Ace's read your circling app plate better than pprune.

f.

[glofish]

My previous job - flying 4 sectors a day in crappy weather to 100 destinations served by precision, non-precision and circling approaches was challenging.

Most guys I fly with now would soil themselves if they had to do a circling approach.

I thank god or allah for all the new astronauts like you we get every month. This to compensate for what we old hogs apparently have lost!
EK will most certainly award you with all the merits and nadjims you deserve.

It's people like you we need, especially as DEC's coming from 4-leg outfits, or once the upgrade barely passed then running around with a star after 9 months.

Your superior performance enhances safety, as your contribution leads to us being no longer allowed to circle at night and we need manual handling sims.

Very revealing, especially the self declared high proficiency!! :ugh:

[donpizmeov]

I hope I get these 25 sector a day in the worlds worse weather guys flying with me, as I need all the help I can get. Sounds like the hours and the experience they gained was well worth the money they paid for it.

The Don

[FUSE PLUG]

I never said it was difficult Adolf. I said that my flight ops environment (ie my employer, 3rd floor) was demanding and unforgiving (they are).

Leave it to guys like this to take a post about trying to get a just share of the pie as a slag on my ability as an aviator...:rolleyes: Honestly... I shot a visual approach yesterday on my 2 sector day. Let me tell you, it was rocket science, we barely made it out alive!

Give me a break and get of your high horse. All I was saying was that while my very demanding and unforgiving EMPLOYER is raking in profits made on the backs of me and my colleagues, I expect my share. Greed or scarcity you decide.

Now, no more putting words in my mouth, okay.

[fatbus]

Is there a record of the profit share for the last 10 or so years on the portal ?

[adolf hucker]

Really, gents, don't mind me. Just trying to provide some light entertainment while we all eagerly await the profit share.

Of course, if you really are concerned about retaining your terms and conditions, you could always have a quiet word with your union rep...

[fliion]

I can give you since May 2008:

05/08
12% 14wks

05/09 (GFC)
0, 0
However O/T threshold increased by 15%ish in effect wiping out 2008-2010

05/10
6% 3wks

05/11
8% 12wks
Edu fund went from 32-40 & 54-60 jnr/SNR respectively (but some loss on school bus setup)

05/12
3% 0

So in essence we have had an 11% increase since June of 2007..,hardly keeping up with the Joneses

As pixy said we are not where we should be (unless you can fly a circle maneuver and then we are overpaid)

f.

[cadidalhopper]

Where did you 'shoot' a visual approach?

[marck_c]

If things are so bad at EKwhy don't you guys all head back to your former airlines and collect some of be profit share there.

[yada.yada.yada]

Are you reading challenged Mr. Marck?

[Saltaire]

Relax everyone. Announcement next Thursday….

Rollin the dice on 6 weeks. Ciao

[YYZ]

Where's the info come from for the announcement to be next Thursday?

YYZ

[fliion]

Marck_c

You & TCAS share the same mgt philosophy and...

initial...

f

[Wizofoz]

If he's called a conference, that's good news.

Seems to me the years we've got nada he's announced it by email- the years we've done OK he's announced it at a meeting.

lets hope...

[donpizmeov]

Wiz,

There is a meeting each year to announce the news. The meeting is always followed by an email. Was worth a try though.

the Don

[givemewings]

Don, in 2011 they had a stage set up in hq, media, photographers etc. That was the time we got 12 wks. I happened to be going through hq last year on the day email came. No platform, no media, no profit share. So maybe some truth in what Wiz said...

[donpizmeov]

You could both well be right. Old age is dimming my senses. Fingers crossed.

The Don

[lospilotos]

This "conference" that was mentioned in the Thursday´s Groupworld email has nothing to do with the 2012 results. Sheikh Ahmed will give an opening statement at the Arabian Travel Market, that´s it.

However, if the results are good, what would be better than having them announced publicly around that time, or if not, better wait until it´s over...

[fringhtok]

So, doesn't seem like the 6th of May is the day.......

[Big Buddha]

I have been told that in the manual, not sure which one or where, that the date of the payment ( possible payment) has been changed to the end of June instead of May.

Didn't see that in the list of ammendments that normally gets sent out.

[flareflyer]

It is so quiet................

[thefoxandfirkin]

Its too quiet!

Just checked the safar from last year's annoucement. Profit share target 3.3bn AED for this year. Profit at six month point 1.7bn AED. Second half of year is always busier and no volcanoes going off this year disrupting flights neither. By my simple noddy maths we should hopefully be getting some... but I can't see it been too much unless of course they raid the cash cupboard for a top up to reward the fact we alll have to work twice as hard as previous years!

Cmmmmon lets be having it................ all the clappers are waiting :D

[Batman777]

Profit target 12/13 = 3.5 billion dhs
Half year profit = 2.1 billion dhs
(Emirates Group

[Mr Good Cat]

Surprised you all missed this little gem...! ...

“The Government of Dubai, acting through the Department of Finance, announces that the outstanding Dh3.34 billion of its AED Bonds due in April 2013 across the dual tranches fixed as well as floater notes issued under its Dh15 billion Medium Term Note Programme dated 14 April 2008, reached maturity on 23 April 2013,” the statement said.

Global financial institutions and analysts believe in Dubai’s strong ability to repay all outstanding obligations.

SOURCE: Home Page - Gulf in the Media (http://www.gulfinthemedia.com/index.php?id=646724&news_type=Economy&lang=en)

If I remember rightly the reason for last years lack of bonus was mainly quoted as being:


19 juni 2012 - Business Intelligence Middle East

Emirates repays US$550 million bond, looks at Islamic debt for future financing
Emirates, the world's largest airline by international traffic, will look at Islamic debt for future financing after paying a US$550 million sukuk.


What is the possibility of some of the Dubai Inc. bonds listed being part of EK's agreements?

It's purely cynical of me to point this out, BUT:

Bond Repayment = AED 3.3bn approx.
Profit Target = AED 3.3bn approx.

:ok: :E :confused: :eek: :ooh: :sad: :( :{:{:{ :ugh: :ouch: :zzz::zzz::zzz:

[Mr Good Cat]

So confident am I, that if wrong I promise to turn up to work on the New Uniform Rollout Day wearing nothing but my (rather excellent quality I must say) gold-braided Skipper's hat.

:yuk:

[jack schidt]

If they don't have the decency to announce that they are not going to announce it, then clearly expect nothing!

The quietness is deafening, sad to say it but this looks like the new norm for the company from here on.

The most reward you can get is to stop the waiting and wishing as they have made us all work more for less, made us robotic with fear and know that your staff number should really be entered into the MEL as an aircraft part which is replaceable.

Carry On, no profit share here! Edit, be grateful you are not being salary deducted for your new shiny badge haha, it's free....how grateful should we all be?

[ishe]

Really seems they don't care. Hi ho hi ho it's back to work we go. Damn!

[PitotTube]

So what happened?

[puff m'call]

Nothing at all, hahaha I said it from the start.

[Desert Camel]

I found the management very distant this year, did not seem to connect with us at all. :rolleyes:

[Panther 88]

D.C., if I may ask......when have they ever connected with us? When have they ever effectively communicated with us? Effective communication being sending AND receiving. The s*** always rolls down hill around here and lands on the serfs.