Aden Cannon flies again

[smujsmith]

I was "mooching" around the RAF Museum at Cosford yesterday when my son, He's an engineer for a well known specialist connector manufacturer, phones me up and says "can you send me some photographs of an Aden cannon as fitted to the Hunter. Having gone round and round twice, I finally found a book in the shop that had all the details and duly sent photographs to said son.

It turns out he has just got the contract for electrical wiring loom and connectors for the Aden Gun pack to be fitted to the new Indian Air Force Rafale. Now I say well done lad for the sale, but surprisingly they are still manufacturing the Aden cannon in the UK. It's nice to see that despite their poor choice of support frame, the weapon selected is top quality :)

[Rhino power]

The Rafale already has a 30mm GIAT DEFA cannon fitted internally, bit weird that the Indian's are after an ADEN gun pack as well?

-RP

[Just This Once...]

Hope they have improved it as the 30mm Aden we had was pretty poor compared to the 27mm Mauser that I enjoyed on the jet that came after. A point reinforced on the range where the we 'ceased' pretty much at the range where the Jags 'opened'.

[Onceapilot]

Maybe we have persuaded them to buy refurbished Hunters instead;)

OAP

[smujsmith]

Apparently the company manufacturing it are directly descended from the original. I'm informed that there is still some form of competition before conformation of the British order. The The 2500 rds/min NEXTER 30M791 30 mm internal cannon seems to be the standard fit so it does seem curious that they are looking at a replacement. :hmm:

Smudge

[newt]

It sure does seem odd as I seem to remember the Aden fires at 1200 to 1400 RPM!

[Flap62]

Just this once

A point reinforced on the range where the we 'ceased' pretty much at the range where the Jags 'opened'.

Other way round surely?

[Just This Once...]

Sorry Flap, the errant 'the' typo in my post did make it difficult to read but (and I don't want to publish the ranges) with the 27mm we 'opened' and then 'ceased' at a far greater range than we did with the 30mm Aden.

With the Aden you had to carry the round in the jet for a fair bit longer, otherwise it didn't do its job!

[exMudmover]

Just This Once,

You imply that having a gun that you have to fire at long range from the target (for ricochet or whatever other reasons), is always an advantage. That may be so for academic range work and wartime targets marked by laser.

However, troops in the field have a tiresome habit of camouflaging themselves, hence real targets (unmarked by laser) are difficult to see.

My experience of strafe in peace and (Cold) war was that it is often an advantage to have a gun that you can fire pretty close to the target, for the simple reasons of late target acquisition and/or poor visibility.

[Just This Once...]

I didn't mean to imply that shooting from further out in academic range work carried-over directly to real-world strafe.

Having greater energy, flatter trajectory and better penetration are the things that are carried-over to real-world strafe, even if pushing close to the flashing X in the HUD for the reasons you give.

:ok:

[newt]

But is it not muzzle velocity that counts? The shorter the flight time the smaller the error!:ugh:

[Just This Once...]

Yep, muzzle velocity and a heavy yet aerodynamic round helps with everything.

Add in accuracy, consistency, rate of fire, reliability, weight and a choice of effects from the ammunition and we have summed up 90% of a good gun.

:ok:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Just a thought but doesn't doubling the rate of fire increase the chance of hitting the same target twice?

[ericferret]

Probably, but unless you carry twice the ammunition other targets rapidly become"safe".
Problem the germans had in WW2 with the MG34/42 machine gun which fired around 1200 rounds per minute where the British BREN gun was down around 500. All that extra ammo and spare barrels had to be man carried.

[Q-RTF-X]

It sure does seem odd as I seem to remember the Aden fires at 1200 to 1400 RPM! I think it was perhaps 1,760 rounds per min ....

[Bob Viking]

Well as a Hawk QWI of old I seem to recall that a half second burst would fire 10-11 rounds. Via the magic of dextra-math that leads me to guess at 1200-1260 rounds per minute. Unless I'm being a retard.
BV

[Lightning Mate]

If I remember, the maximum rate of fire of the Adens we had on the Jaguar was 1200 rpm with a warm gun.

Yes - we did have to get in close with what was a relatively low muzzle velocity.

Mind you, a four-gun shoot with the Hunter was something else, especially when the vibration tripped lots of circuit breakers. A couple of patches of stores black sticky tape fixed that on most occasions, but not the smell of cordite in the office!

Wholi????......

[ExAscoteer]

Problem the Germans had in WW2 with the MG34/42 machine gun which fired around 1200 rounds per minute where the British BREN gun was down around 500.

The MG34 and MG42 were two very different weapons and, since they were GPMGs, not really comparable to the BREN (which was a LMG).

A better comparison would be with the Vickers K Machine Gun.

[Bob Viking]

I flew the Jaguar up until it's OSD. I couldn't remember the RoF from the Jag but I could from the Hawk. I'm presuming it is much longer since you last flew it. I'm guessing that either you have an exceptional memory or you used the magic of Google to find the answer!
BV

[John Farley]

especially when the vibration tripped lots of circuit breakers

And even unlocked the nose leg

[BEagle]

...especially when the vibration tripped lots of circuit breakers ...

Lots? I vaguely recall the lean forward, twist your right arm around your shoulder and feel for the inverter CBs trick - but there were hardly 'lots' of CBs!

But the noise and smell of even 1 gun was superb. "Same...pause...fire...recover" at RAF Pembrey Sands = sport of kings!!

The shortest burst I ever fired followed a 'will I, won't I' dive - I did and fired a single round. Astonishingly, it hit!!

Brawdy, early Summer of '76, Hunter FGA9, range slot.... Life was once such fun!! I simply don't believe that synthetic weaponeering in the handful of Hawk T2s the RAF now has can offer anything like the satisfaction.

[ericferret]

Exascoteer

I have to disagree.

The MG 34 and the 42 were very similar weapons to the BREN by useage . Folke Myrvangs two books, German universal machine guns vol 1 and 2 are the bible for the 34/42 (1000 pages and bloody heavy).

The 34/42 was a platoon infantry weapon, light and with a bipod as was the Bren.
The Vickers was more for fixed position and sustained fire. The German equivalent was the MG34/42 on the Lafette mount. Same argument as the rate of fire for the Vickers was about 500 compared with the 1000/1200 for the 34/42. Keeping that supplied with ammo in sustained fire must have been a trial.

The Bren was replaced with the GPMG which followed the mg34/42 principle of being used as a platoon support weapon with a bipod or as a sustained fire weapon on a tripod as a Vickers replacement. In the late seventies the Bren was a second line weapon and the GPMG was first line so we regularly shot our Brens against the infantry GPMG's and the Germans with their MG3 in LMG competitions.

The MG 34/42 was a little like garlic bread it was the future. The descendent of the 34/42 is the MG3 introduced to replace the 42 in 1968 and used by the Germans to this day. A testament to good design.

Not sure what any of this has to do with aircraft cannons, however it is PPRUNE and a slow day!!!

[AtomKraft]

ericferret

I'm not sure the GPMG replaced the Bren, as we had both when I was in- at the same time.
To be fair, the Bren had morphed into the LMG, but it was the same thing as a Bren, just fired the NATO 7.62 (like the Jimpy & SLR). ;)

[Bob Viking]

You are quite correct in one way. It is nowhere near as satisfying as live firing. However, it is much more relevant and applicable to modern day front line strafe. It is still taught with the same serious emphasis on safety and forward firing weapon considerations.
There are no more low level laydown retard deliveries either! How will we ever manage in future?!
BV:eek:

[Just This Once...]

So no more comedy switch-pigs leaving a blue weapon of death in a random bit of Wales?

So no more lofting of 30mm as you recover from the latest attack on the bush-of-the-day?

:}

[Onceapilot]

There are no more low level laydown retard deliveries either! How will we ever manage in future?!
BVhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Hopefully, not in a threat environment above about 200':uhoh:

OAP

[NutLoose]

Beagle, Some stunning film of the Hunters nailing targets on the range here..... You'll cry at about 2mins 27 when you see the target he takes out.
Nice bit of napalm too...

Hawker Hunter - Video Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32dmu_hawker-hunter_tech)


..

[haltonapp]

I do remember when I was on 8 Sqn in '68, firing the guns on our Hunter 7, 9 and 10's caused a high failure rate on the anti g suit valve, in fact we had a pilot killed who failed to pull out from a dive, and the cause was reckoned to be failure of this valve, very fragile bellows inside it!

On a lighter note, our pilots always had to clean the cordite off the aircraft on return from APC!!!

I bet squadron pilots don't do that anymore, they wouldn't want to get their hands dirty!

[G&J]

Some interesting comparisons of firepower here..
Modern Fighter Gun Effectiveness (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/modern_fighter_gun_effectiveness.htm)

[Q-RTF-X]

I think it was perhaps 1,760 rounds per min .... Looks like I was wrong and the 1200/1400 figure seems most appropriate - must have been thinking of something altogether different (though have no idea what !) :confused:

[Blacksheep]

It sure does seem odd as I seem to remember the Aden fires at 1200 to 1400 RPM! I think it was perhaps 1,760 rounds per min ....

As I remember the Aden gun circuits (Halton was back in '63-'66), 1250 sounds about right for older models that used mechanical firing pins or the later direct current electrical firing, but when using the high frequency alternating current firing circuit it would go to 1800. The thing to remember is that it takes time for a machine gun to accelerate to full firing revs, so short bursts never get up to speed.

[Wander00]

Anyone else remember the USAF Weapon Effects Test film Maj Pomeroy used to show at Cranditz. ISTR that sadly he was killed in Viet Nam - anyone know what he was flying?

[Engines]

Blacksheep,

Perhaps I can help here - I was, for a while, involved with the Aden 25 project, so some of the figures are coming back.

The Aden 30 goes at around 1250 to 1300 rounds per minute. The rate of fire of a gas powered revolver is driven by a number of factors, but mainly the power of the round and the mass of the moving parts, plus the strength of the recoil springs.

The Aden 25 was a heavily redesigned weapon that went at about 1850 rounds per minute, using mechanically fired ammunition, rather than the electrically fired Aden 30. Much higher muzzle velocity as well.

Gas powered revolvers start at full speed and stay that way. It's gatlings that take a while to get going, as the rotating barrel cluster (plus the rounds) have to be accelerated. This feature of revolvers is a big advantage in aircraft cannon installations, (where the number of rounds carried is always limited), as it gets more shells on target for a short burst.

Hope this helps a little

All the best

Engines

[Blacksheep]

Thanks Engines. Dim memories start to come back once the brain cells are stretched back into shape. I've been a civilian for far too long - weapon systems were much more fun. :)