SAVE OUR SERVICES (SOS) _ SDSR 2015

[Old-Duffer]

During his recent visit to Scotland, the Prime Minister indicated that the MOD would not be exempt from the next round of cost cutting, which is apparently due in two years time: SDSR 2015?

The Defence Secretary has stated that he will fight this but presumably in a post-Afghanistan era, it will be argued that the forces are still too big and need further trimming against their future perceived role – whatever that might be.

Although the armed forces are generally well regarded by ‘Joe Public’, I don’t believe the regular bleating which follows changes/cutbacks etc will ever really strike home unless the general populace are made to see the dire state of the forces. That might come if the services were to suffer a major setback on operations but it also might come from the MOD taking an axe to some of its scared cows. What might those cows be? I offer some thoughts but there must be others if not aplenty, certainly worth looking at.

1. Disband the Red Arrows or transfer their funding to somebody else.
2. Withdraw the Household Division from all public duties, disband the mounted regiment, withdraw all horses, scarlet uniforms etc and guns and limbers.
3. Sell HMS Victory and failing reaching the reserve price, remove all funding and scrap the vessel.
4. Disband all service bands.
5. Withdraw all support and any ‘hidden’ funding for charitable activities such as the Fairford show.
6. No public allowances for the purchase of service mess kit for officers on commissioning.
7. Disband BBMF and sell the aircraft.

Before I am lynched for this heresy, thrown in the Tower or struck from your Christmas Card list, it will be obvious that something has to give and if not the above, where will the cuts come from?

Thoughts on a postcard!!

Old Duffer

[NutLoose]

Cannot see why the BBMF cannot be independant like the Royal Navy Historical Flight.

Mine are car tax on petrol, wipes out those avoiding it in one swoop. Then make the car tax office redundant.
Replace tax disc with insurance one.

Referendum's for all, those wishing to stay part of the UK, scrap their assemblies and all the civil service that support them.

Mad cap schemes such as bin tax, tax the producers and companies using excess packaging, cuts waste, reduces landfill and all those trees that are cut down to produce paper etc are saved, additionally you cut the need to waste money recycling plastics, as you haven't made as much.

Make companies clean up their act, those drawing water from rivers must draw it downstream of their outflows.

Full unemployment benefit for 3 years reducing until cease at 5 year point. No benefits until 5 years tax paid.
No council houses the same 5 years tax paid.
Child benefit capped at 3 kids.
Instant deportation for all illegals etc coming from France as no persecution in France, those that destroy their docs would be housed on deserted Scottish island about 10k off coast, be given sheep, cow, basic shelter and tools and left to get on with it.

[gijoe]

Tri-service training?

(No bollox about Service Traditions etc that comes later)

In fact tri-service everything as much as possible with the same T&Cs for everyone.

[Courtney Mil]

How about a recorded message.

"Thank you for calling Search and Rescue at RAF Valley. This is an emergency number and your call is important to us. We shall shortly be connecting you with one of our operators. Please have the following details ready: your name and telephone number, the nature and location of the emergency, the budget code or details of the credit card you wish to use to pay for this service. This call may be recorded for training purposes!

[Pontius Navigator]

Tri-service training?

(No bollox about Service Traditions etc that comes later)

In fact tri-service everything as much as possible with the same T&Cs for everyone.

I thought that had been tried by one of the Commonwealth countries?

Get rid of all uniforms except for the Camo kit. Do away with PEd branches; make everyone responsible for their own fitness. Stop all ceremonial. Close all officers' messes, especially Army regimental ones. Introduce 48 hr passes and confine everyone to camp until morale improves.

[tucumseh]

I am a firm believer that MoD, in fact all Government departments, should be required to avoid waste, as far practically possible. Only from that baseline can their true financial requirements be established. In effect, each year MoD is given a huge “float” in their budget as it is not policy to avoid waste. They act like a restaurant and build wastage into their costings. Worse, this includes conscious waste.


I have long held the view that MoD’s budget is pretty generous were it not for this policy of condoning, in fact encouraging, waste. Recently, when asked to confirm (or otherwise) that this policy remained extant, both Minister for the Armed Forces (Andrew Robothan MP) and the Head of the Civil Service (Sir Robert Kerslake) stated, in writing, that it remains an offence in MoD to refuse to obey an order to knowingly waste money.


That is a huge elephant in the room.


On top of this, and with increasing frequency, along come minor hiccups like Nimrod MRA4, which poured well over £4Bn down the drain. The reason why it was cancelled was advised to the programme’s “management oversight” team during the programme initiation process in the mid-90s and was the subject of a damning report in 1998. Yet it took another 13 years. Why? I have always suspected MoD waits for those involved to retire before acknowledging such things. The evidence is pretty compelling.

Old-Duffer, I strongly agree with 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. No comment on 6, as I don’t know the details. As for BBMF, I’ve often wondered why the RN Historical Flight did not enjoy the same funded status. Having said that, I plead guilty to unofficially helping them out whenever I could.

[NutLoose]

Introduce two tone uniform, dark trousers, RAF blue Jacket, this getting rid of the need to replace both at once.

[Courtney Mil]

Those of us drawing a service pension should have it severely cut. It's far too big as it is and this would really save money.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Cannot see why the BBMF cannot be independant like the Royal Navy Historical Flight.

Well apart from the fact that BBMF have more Spitfires than the RNHF have aircraft. I am not convinced that anyone would have the capacity to operate the entire BBMF as a going concern without starting to asset strip and selling off of aircraft to pay for the running of the rest. After all, if we carry on as we have in the last few years, in a few years time the entire RAF will consist only of the BBMF and some UAVs.

As a sign of the decline of the British military I would say losing the Reds to, say, BAe control would place us well down the league of global air forces. If it has to be something the public will really get behind, I would say its the scrapping of the Reds.

But then whatever government is in power, left, right or centre, will bow to public pressure and direct keeping the Reds but we will just lose something else (like maritime patrol aircraft, or SAR helos, or tankers, or the entire military flying training system). :uhoh:

[Finningley Boy]

OD,

The first two things on your list I would definitely choose as they would strike home on the public conscience far more effectively than the rest. So, yes indeed, Disband the Red Arrows (they've become far to commercialised in any case) and also withdraw the Guards and Household Divisions from Public Duties, that'll get the tourist from hither and fither asking where the Soldiers? and do you mean to say we've come all this way for nothing? etc etc.

But while they would save buttons, it would have the greatest impact on Joe Public's perceptions, for once!:E

FB:)

[Wander00]

A bit of thinning of the upper echelons might not go amiss - do we need quite so many "stars"?

[Biggus]

I personally know of a 2*, a 1* and 2 Grp Capts that have recently retired of their own choice, and I don't move in senior officer circles.

I don't know if the "system" replaced them, but some of our supposed high flyers have seen the way the wind is blowing and elected to leave and make their own way in the world.

That doesn't alter the fact that as a service we are massively "over ranked"!!

[Dockers]

O-D

3. Sell HMS Victory and failing reaching the reserve price, remove all funding and scrap the vessel.

HMS Victory is already in the private domain, having been transferred to the National Museum of the Royal Navy. Some of her funding, however, remains from the public purse. Wikipedia says:
...the most significant change in the custodianship of HMS Victory took place on 6 March 2012, when ownership of the ship was transferred from the Ministry of Defence to a dedicated HMS Victory Preservation Trust, established as part of the National Museum of the Royal Navy. According to the Royal Navy website, the move was "heralded by the announcement of a £25 million capital grant to support the new Trust by the Gosling Foundation – a donation which has been matched by a further £25 million from the MOD" .[10] This continues the long tradition of Sir Donald Gosling's support for Royal Naval heritage projects, and aims to safeguard the life of HMS Victory for the next 240 years.

[Tiger_mate]

Centralised Messing. After all PAYD is virtually a cafe now anyway.

Approve self-help T&S. ie lastminuteroom dot com instead of HRG or whatever they call themselves this week. Better still, use a flat rate for T&S and if you want a five star hotel or the ability to take the wife/girlfriend, you pay the difference. HRG charge the military £10 for every telephone call they make and are usually more expensive than last minute rooms. Put the onus for value for money on the individual rather then a monopoly that lines the pockets of former senior officers.

Do something with Defence Housing, because it is a royal mess at the moment and is unlikely to be competitive in comparision to an independant tender.

However we can prophesise all we want to when in reality, pulling the plug on Afghanistan alone will save multi millions of GBP. The care and welfare for the hundreds traumatised by conflict will be a hidden financial burden that will be evident for decades.

Why does nobody ever hear about the Police, Fire and Ambulance T&S taking a kicking. They always did leave the MoD in the shade when it comes to allowances.

[Willard Whyte]

Hmm, USMC has ~195,000 serving personnel + 40,000 reserves, with land sea and air forces.

We have, what, 185,000 serving personnel + 36,000 reserves across all three services?

I have no idea how many orifices there are of star rank in the USMC, but I can't imagine it's anywhere near the combined total of our three services.

I'm sure a major platform is going to be cut, very probably from the raf - along with associated redundancies.

[Stitchbitch]

How about:

1) Follow the Swiss example and having a 5% professional force with the rest conscripted, and like them, don't get involved in armed conflicts but instead just 'do' peace keeping.

2) Stop funding/buying absurdly expensive kit, buy off the shelf stuff that works and do as the Israelis do and modify/upgrade in house.

3) Bin the reds and keep BBMF. :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

Civilianise the military:uhoh:

[fingureof8]

WW- 1000 posts! Not sure if that's a good or bad thing...

So I am interested what major platform you think is in for the axe?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Keep the Reds, BBMF, Changing of the Guard etc.

De-centralise: it doesn't work.

Bring in someone from the LO CO airlines and examine cost savings.

Single source training, PAYG.

Buy your own bullets: you can have as many as you want but you have to buy them.

What is the kill to weapon ratio? If its 5:1 make 4 weapons inert and have 1 that works ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

the entire BBMF as a going concern without starting to asset strip and selling off of aircraft to pay for the running of the rest.

Been done. Real gate guardians were exchanged for Airfix kits and some cash to maintain others. I think they still do a certain amount of trading.

[Stitchbitch]

Trading with Rolls Royce (a BBMF PR.19 Spitfire) helped to fund the re-build of a Hurricane.

[tramps]

NutLoose, you have my vote. Also Nationalise the 'national-lottery' & use the profits for the defence of the Nation; the excess can used to pay off the National debt. That should get us out of trouble within 5-years, although profits may be affected in certain parts of the midlands and London

[Corporal Clott]

I'd be radical...

Shrink the Army to ~40,000 full time and then have a 50,000 Army Reserve to protect the UK both externally and within. No more expeditions like Bosnia, Iraq or Afghanistan.

Stop trying to put 'boots on the ground' in far away places and expand the RN and the RAF (to ~40k each) to take 'expiditionary warfare' to those international niggles that need our help but rely on that nation's 'boots on the ground' - a bit like Libya. Put anything that floats and or needs assault capabilities (ie. SF and Marines) into the RN and anything that flies into the RAF (along with Flying Ops Spt like RAF Regt, ATC, FC, Eng - Admin can be done out of the 40k Army). The Army become effectively 'Home Guard'.

Gaff off tanks and armoured vehicles unless needed for defence purposes and spend the money on aircraft (Combat, ISTAR, SH, AT/AAR and FL trainers) and boats (SSBN, SSN, DD, FF, CVF and support vessels).

There you go, rebalanced to global effect, cheaper and more capable. When do I get the job of SoS for Defence? :ok:

CPL Clott

Ever so slighly :}

[Pontius Navigator]

I read last week, in a novel, that the reason we had never been invaded in over 900 years was because we waged war in other people's countries.

However today someone argued that the ability to retaliate was one thing but was pointless if it meant we could suffer an attack first. The solution was to build an anti-missile system to defend the UK rather than Trident replacement.

Interesting though that WEBF hasn't joined the debate.

[Willard Whyte]

So I am interested what major platform you think is in for the axe?

Absolutely no idea old chap. But a 10% cut balanced against rising costs countered by a withdrawal from Afghanistan leads me to believe that 'something' must go.

If I had to bet a pound I'd put it on the E-3 for the chop. Whatever one may think of all the guff about network enabled warfare and all the other whizz-wheel management speak of the day, my gut feeling is that the powers that be will be of the opinion that Lightning IIs et al will be capable of 'looking after themselves' on the front line. It also means they won't be forced into making a choice between an expensive flight deck upgrade and re-opening one or more 'single wing' flight deck schools at cranditz.

Just my ha'p'orth. I know some still serving mates are looking forward apprehensively at the next few years. That and some 'star' chat overheard at the odd funeral or two over the last year or three.

[TomJoad]

Cannot see why the BBMF cannot be independant like the Royal Navy Historical Flight.

scrap their assemblies and all the civil service that support them.



So you would remove democratically elected bodies and the electorate's representation just to bolster military funding. Nice :D. Think there may be an opening for you in North Korea;)

How about remove flying pay and reintroduce non commissioned (RAF) aircrew (pilot) - more than enough military wanabe aviators out there to fill hole left by those who jump - good luck to them.;)

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew
the entire BBMF as a going concern without starting to asset strip and selling off of aircraft to pay for the running of the rest.
Been done. Real gate guardians were exchanged for Airfix kits and some cash to maintain others. I think they still do a certain amount of trading.



They probably p*ss the cost of running the BBMf down the tubes before breakfast, selling ones history off is a dodgy path.. Where next? Flat conversion of parliament? Windsor castle to some rich Yank? Auction off the contents of Hendon? Return the Elgin Marbles?

[Twon]

SNCO pilots has some merit as an idea........(Mk7 on!)

[Easy Street]

SNCO pilots has some merit as an idea

You're right, it does. For one thing, it would stop the idiocy of treating every new junior pilot as a possible future CAS, and moving him/her off the front line after 3 years so they can 'demonstrate their potential for broader employment'. At least with a SNCO you could leave them there forever to become the wizened old ninja...

[Lima Juliet]

Ref: SNCO Pilots

This is a great myth when it comes to savings. The approximate pay bands for a Fg Off are £30k-£33k and for a Flt Lt £38k-£45k. For a Sgt it is £33k-£37k and for a Flt Sgt it is £37k-£43k. For Master Aircrew (ie. WO1 equivalent) it is £42k-£47k. So no real saving in base salary.

Now assuming that notional RAF SNCO pilots are paid the same flying pay as the current Army SNCOs, then they are paid exactly the same rate (between £14 to £44 per day depending on their level).

So, I see no savings of any real amount. Also, the SNCOs get free uniform which costs more than the officers having to pay for theirs (excluding PCS and flying gear).

I invite the previous 2 posters to explain exactly where these massive savings would come...:confused:

LJ

[Evalu8ter]

Hate myself for saying this, but how about these for 'tough love'...

Bin the Reds, replace with either a dedicated team flying Extras (eg Jordan) or forget the idea completely (I doubt there's the scope for an MFTS run team...).

Turn BBMF into a heritage trust a la RNHF; does it really need so many Spitfires? The MkII, Mk IX and one XIX should suffice - sell the rest to invest into the long term future of the others. It would perhaps permit the organisation to look into broadening the flight based on commercial appeal - a Mosquito perhaps? Would also permit far more tactical freedom with sponsorship. Move the unit back to Biggin Hill or Scampton....

Bin 100 Sqn (:() and outsource their roles to the likes of HHA/Cobham/2Excel. The requirement will continue to shrink given the likely numbers of Typhoon/F35 and the focus on synthetic training.

Scrap Sentinel, Air Seeker, Islander and Defender. Have King Air derivatives for all 'special mission' roles - accept that our Strategic Int days are over and tactical ISR (manned or unmanned) is the way ahead.

Scrap E3 and negotiate a joint UK/French E-2 fleet by purchasing a few-off new builds. Far cheaper to run than E3....

Sh*tcan the LTPA with QQ and have real competition in T&E. QQ have become a greedy monster that has, IMHO, lost sight of it's original remit - Independant Safety Advice - to spread into all manner of other areas for profit. They are overstretched and under resourced but continue to take on work they cannot deliver. The shop floor guys n gals are great, the management aren't. Bin ETPS and outsource - the UK needs few TPs these days or for the forseeable future.

Centralise the UAS's into regional centres, though I sense with the Wittering announcement that this is already on the cards.

Come clean about the Successor deterrent. The programme is all about maintaining a nuclear sub capability, not about Trident (we're keeping the same missiles...). Create a national shipbuilding strategy, like the US does, and have a pulsed programme that knocks out an SSN every 4-5 years, a redesign every 20. Do the same with DD/FFs and (perish the thought) carriers. Steel is cheap, technology continually moves on. It's often cheaper to incorporate at build than through refit. Enables the RN to sell-off/scrap older vessels earlier and keep a smaller number of more modern/cheaper to operate vessels in the fleet. Industry can order long lead items in confidence and the budget is easier to programme as the spikes are fewer and less pronounced. If the strategic threat changes you simply extend some of the older ships....With this policy we could become serious about exporting new warships again.

As for the army...where do you start? Like trying to reform the catholic church.....

I'm playing Devils Advocate - I'd rather defence went back to 3-4% of GDP and the UK Govt (of whatever hue) stopped using it as a benefits system for certain elements of UK Industry for political gain......

[12 twists per inch]

Bin the UAS system. are these really cost effective in a smaller airforce requiring less pilots and where competition is fierce?

[Wensleydale]

Lightning IIs et al will be capable of 'looking after themselves' on the
front line


It would be interesting to see them manage their own tanker plot when they are leaving the operational area!

[1.3VStall]

Wensleydale, they won't need to as the loadie on board the Voyager will just punch buttons on the Mission Planning System and out will pop the answers and the jets will be on their way home.

Oh, silly me - I forgot that the MPS is not fit for purpose and Voyager isn't cleared to tank, but that doesn't matter because the Voyager can't go anywhere near an operational theatre as it has no defensive aids.

Never mind, Voyager will be a splendid transport aircraft - when it is eventually cleared for ETOPS!:ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

Come on! Can anyone explain to me why it would be significantly cheaper to have SNCO or WO Pilots rather than Officer Pilots in the RAF?

Before replying, check out the numbers/figures in the post above...

:confused:

LJ

[TomJoad]

Come on! Can anyone explain to me why it would be significantly cheaper to have SNCO or WO Pilots rather than Officer Pilots in the RAF?

Before replying, check out the numbers/figures in the post above...

:confused:

LJ

Yeah you're right Leon, I concede.:ugh:

[NutLoose]

So you would remove democratically elected bodies and the electorate's representation just to bolster military funding. Nice . Think there may be an opening for you in North Korea


You'll be first up against the wall..... Ever played catch the mortar shell? :p

What i was trying to say was... If they do not want independence then they should, like England, recognise parliament as the central seat of Government for the Countries that make up the UK.. I could understand individual little countries each having their own Governments or assemblies as independent states, but if they do not wish to be independent then this little Country cannot afford to have four independent layers of political baggage.

Stitchbitch
Trading with Rolls Royce (a BBMF PR.19 Spitfire) helped to fund the re-build of a Hurricane.


The Spitfire wasn't traded with Royce's but sold at Auction in 94, the new owner was tragically killed when training to fly it, Royce's then bought the aircraft from his estate in 96, which makes sense as the engine is an oddball.

[TomJoad]

You'll be first up against the wall..... Ever played catch the mortar shell? :p

What i was trying to say was... If they do not want independence then they should, like England, recognise parliament as the central seat of Government for the Countries that make up the UK.. I could understand individual little countries each having their own Governments or assemblies as independent states, but if they do not wish to be independent then this little Country cannot afford to have four independent layers of political baggage.



Oh yes Great and Glorious Leader, our day and night, father of our Great Country which will smite all that needs to be smited. Hail the best leader since our last best leader, wondrous leader etc etc. We are ever so sorry that we dared exercise a democratic choice - how foolish we have been your enlightened state has once again shown how maggotty we are . Hail our glorious one etc, etc. :ugh:

Yeah right - let me talk to your dad!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Easy Street,

You're right, it does. For one thing, it would stop the idiocy of treating every new junior pilot as a possible future CAS, and moving him/her off the front line after 3 years so they can 'demonstrate their potential for broader employment'. At least with a SNCO you could leave them there forever to become the wizened old ninja...

... if only there was some system in place to leave JO aircrew in flying or flying-related posts through their careers, maximising their time on the front line... treating them like Professional Aircrew...? :E

Realistically though, most people of my vintage have managed 3-4 consecutive flying tours, often on the same types. Plenty of JO chums of mine have gone GR4 front line - GR4 OCU - GR4 front line for their first 3 tours. Some stepped sideways to RPAS or training jobs.

Where are we sending people to in order to demonstrate their potential for broader employment? Even the last couple of guys I knew off to BALO-style jobs were volunteers.

[Halton Brat]

Courtney Mil: "Those of us drawing a service pension should have it severely cut. It's far too big as it is and this would really save money."

Courtney, have you been missing out on your meds again?:=

HB

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, bugger. Thanks, HB. I'll get back on them in the morning.

[Twon]

Sorry, internet has been down, hence slow reply. RE SNCO pilot savings, even given the similar pay amounts, there are 14 levels from base Fg Off to top Flt Lt but 23 levels from base Sgt to top WO. Therefore, progression would appear to be slower and also cheaper at the SNCO level. Moreover, SNCOs would not automatically be entitled to the larger officer SFA (while they continue to exist) and Mess scalings for SNCOs are cheaper than officers scalings.

I'm not sure that this is as simple as pay comparison and I'm sure there are other factors such as longer tour lengths (less Disturbance Allowance claims). Uniform issue is probably a red herring as there has been recent talk of issuing free to officers too (doing away with the tax allowance at the same time). There will also be savings in training as the course could be designed around the current NCA course. Reduced training time, costs etc.

The structure would also be broadly similar to WW2 albeit much smaller, with Flt Lts as Flt Cdrs and Sqns commanded by.......Sqn Ldrs!!!!!

A partly flippant, partly serious suggestion. I'm sure there are flaws but an all officer sqn in the current climate does not appear to match public thinking (too many top brass etc)

[Party Animal]

LJ,

An alternative comparison may be:

Recruit snco pilot at age 21. Pay him as a sgt for 10 years, FS for 15 years and MACr for his last 10 years up to retirement at age 55. Spend his whole career as professional aircrew with 34 years piloting either on the front-line or closely related posts. When he is about to retire, employ another 21 year old to replace him. Training pipeline in simple terms = 1 new pilot required every 34 years. Experience level = 12,000 hrs on whatever type, with consumate knowledge of the aircraft, TTP's, etc.. Accept they are specialists in a narrow field and are not going to be used for campaign planning.

Recruit officer pilot at age 21. Pay him as a fg off for 2 years, fl lt for 5 years, sqn ldr for 5 years, wg cdr for 8 years, gp capt until retirement at 55. After his first couple of tours flying, he goes to a ground tour and then has to do a full OCU course before returning as a flt cdr. Likewise, after further ground tours and the cost of staff college, there will be another full OCU course. Training pipeline in simple terms = 1 new pilot required every 3 years. Experience level = 3,000 hrs on type but a much broader outlook on how defence is run and capable of planning wars.

Haven't got time to do the maths right now but overall, the cost of the snco has to be significantly less.

[Just This Once...]

You guys are mental or accomplished wind-up artists. With an acknowledged difficulty in retaining pilots and drawing them through into SO2 and SO1 positions are you really suggesting paying the next generation less????

Madness.

[Roland Pulfrew]

JTO

The single most obvious flaw in all of the pro-SNCO pilots argument. As well as the fact that without all officer (RAF/FAA) sqns you have fewer people for all those annoying staff jobs that still need to be done. Or you put Masters into SO3 jobs, meaning there will be annoying staff jobs for SNCO pilots as well. As well as Party Animal's assumption that the SNCO pilot will stay to 55 - of course they wouldn't be seduced by the airlines, or the NS helicopter industry, or the new privatised SAR force, would they? Just imagine a sgt pilot on the A330, with an A330 type rating and an A330 instrument rating. On sgts pay or on BA/Virgin/BMI (other airlines are available) pay!! :rolleyes:

[Party Animal]

are you really suggesting paying the next generation less????


No suggestion at all from my part. Just an overall cost comparison should the RAF ever choose to go down the route of snco pilots.

Having said that, has the RAF ever struggled to retain WSOps? Maybe, you have inadvertantly provided another good reason to consider recruiting snco pilots? Perhaps, knowing you can just fly an aircraft for 34 years without all the staff crap to go with it has a lot more of an attraction than being a glorified GD officer who manages a bit of flying during a career? I.e, retention positive, as opposed to telling a 30 year old sqn ldr pilot at the end of his flt cdr tour that he will not go to staff college and therefore will never fly again, as desk jobs have a greater need?

I'm just sayin....:hmm:

[StopStart]

Perhaps, knowing you can just fly an aircraft for 34 years without all the staff crap

The bull**** eventually wears almost everyone down, officer or SNCO. The lure of trivia-free work outside the military will always draw most of your pilots away, regardless of rank.

[Lima Juliet]

Thanks for the examples - I was begining to think that I'd delivered a coupe de grace. I still remain sceptical about there being any great savings to be made in terms of wages - when the Mrs is watching some tripe on the box I'll try and put some examples together to compare (I may be proved wrong having done this!).

As for going straight through 30 odd years doing flying only, I know of plenty of officers that have done this; refusing promotion and aligning themselves to QFI or QWI skills sets. I suspect that there are probably as many, by percentage, officers as there are NCA that never have a non-flying job (and they are probably as rare as hen's teeth if you discount "flying related" jobs).

I also know of plenty of NCA (Non-Commisioned Aircrew) that have ended up in non-flying ops jobs, station flight safety jobs, FOD prevention jobs, Simulator jobs, ground instructor posts, Air Command, Group and Force Headquarters jobs. So don't be naive to believe being a SNCO/WO will guarantee staying on a flight deck or in a cockpit.

LJ

[teeteringhead]

Come on! Can anyone explain to me why it would be significantly cheaper to have SNCO or WO Pilots rather than Officer Pilots in the RAF?
... and ISTR that the average Sneck pilot serves about 5 years fewer than the occifer......

[Party Animal]

LJ,

There are some good points against, raised above. Maybe another option to calculate is a 16/38 point. Sgt for 10 years followed by FS for the last 6 maybe? Should be able to hold onto them in flying slots for that length of time.

I'm not advocating the RAF and RN go down this route by the way. Just interested in the costings as you raised it earlier. I think for me, the reduced flying training (in simplistic terms) could be the highest factor?

Will be interested to see how it turns out. :8

[Backwards PLT]

At the end of the day the costs for SNCO v Officer pilot can be quibbled over forever, but they are really very similar and when compared to total aircraft costs the difference is infinitesimal.

Of course pilots who spend 12 months officer training then do hardly any flying is extremely wasteful. I'm sure the army are all over it. :E

[LeggyMountbatten]

I've thought for a long time that....

...all aircrew categories open to SNCO but not direct entry, so recruited from existing SNCOs (air or ground) and ground trades cpls with a +ve promotion recommendation. Thus straight into flying training and no officer (or direct entry sgt) training costs. Direct entry commissioned aircrew available but much smaller, and so easily met, recruitment targets allowing a major re-modelling of UASs (but VSOs at the top have a huge loyalty to the existing and long standing UAS system). Most JP posts wouldn't matter if FOFL or SNCO.

Significantly fewercommissioned aircrew would remove some remaining requirement for as many commissioned ground jobs, re-invigorating the responsibilities and status of SNCOs and WOs generally. A good thing.

Commissioned officers, generally, are expensive. Long training with reasonable failure rate and are the still an unknown quantity for years, with further expense of failures.

[Courtney Mil]

If we were talking about running an airline I can see how this would work. But I wonder what the differences would be on a modern front line squadron where there is a lot more to being a pilot, a captain et al, than just being a qual'd pilot. There are leadership issues too. Detachments operating in remote areas, etc. You get my drift.

[Lima Juliet]

Right, this has taken me frikkin' ages! I have modelled direct entry NCA and Officers for comparison and done it to 22 years in accordance with the new Future Armed Forces Pension Scheme (FAFPS) which starts in 2015. At that 22 year point they either retire, promote or go PAS.

Flying Pay - same for both Officers and SNCOs
After OCU 5135
After 4 year 8712
After 8 years 13855
After 12 years 16308

Flying Training - same for both
EFT 26 weeks
BJFT 40 weeks
AJT 36 weeks
FJ OCU – 6 months

Officer Annual pay
Officer Cadet during first 7 months of training -15823
Pilot Officer - 24861 (Level 5 only)
Flying Officer - 29882 – 33030 (5 Levels)
Flight Lieutenant - 38295 – 45541 (9 Levels)

NCA Annual pay
Recruit during first six months of training (9 weeks RTS and 11 weeks NCAITC) -14286
Recruit during remainder of flying training - 27868
(on OCU) Sergeant - 33083 – 37298 (7 Levels)
Flight Sergeant - 37323 – 43684 (9 Levels)
Master Aircrew - 42501 – 47220 (7 Levels)

Direct Entry NCA Example
Year 1 – 7143+13934 = 21077
Year 2 – 27868 (wings awarded at end of year and starts as Sgt)
Year 3 – 33083 (OCU completed at end of year and FP starts)
Year 4 – 33939 + 5135 = 39074
Year 5 – 34800 + 5135 = 39935
Year 6 – 35238 + 5135 = 40373
Year 7 – 35925 + 5135 = 41060 (start 2nd Tour)
Year 8 – 36611 + 8712 = 45323
Year 9 – 37298 + 8712 = 46010
Year 10 – 37298 + 8712 = 46010 (end of 2nd Tour and promotes Flt Sgt)
Year 11 – 37323 + 8712 = 46035
Year 12 – 38224 + 13855 = 52079 630064
Year 13 – 39138 + 13855 = 52993 (end of 3rd Tour)
Year 14 – 40044 + 13855 = 53899
Year 15 – 40954 + 13855 = 54809
Year 16 – 41860 + 16308 = 58168 (end of 4th Tour)
Year 17 – 42464 + 16308 = 58772
Year 18 – 43068 + 16308 = 59376
Year 19 – 43684 + 16308 = 59992 (end of 5th Tour)
Year 20 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992
Year 21 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992
Year 22 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992 (Retire or PAS?)
Total Cost for NCA so far => £1,055,912

Direct Entry Officer
Year 1 – 9230+10358 = 19588 (Graduate as Plt Off)
Year 2 – 29882 (promote to Fg Off)
Year 3 – 30672 (OCU completed at end of year and FP starts)
Year 4 – 31458 + 5135 = 36593
Year 5 – 32239 + 5135 = 37374
Year 6 – 33030 +5135 = 38165
Year 7 – 38295 + 5135 = 43430 (start 2nd Tour and promotes Flt Lt)
Year 8 – 39321 + 8712 = 48033
Year 9 – 40359 + 8712 = 49071
Year 10 – 41401 + 8712 = 50113 (start 3rd Tour – OCU Instructor)
Year 11 – 42431 + 8712 = 51143
Year 12 – 43469 + 13855 = 57324
Year 13 – 44499 + 13855 = 58354 (start 4th Tour)
Year 14 – 45024 + 13855 = 58879
Year 15 – 45541 + 13855 = 59396
Year 16 – 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (start 5th Tour)
Year 17 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 18 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 19 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (Start 6th Tour)
Year 20 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 21 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 22 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (Retire, PAS or promote?)
Total Cost for Direct Entry Officer so far => £1,081,372

The Officer Stream is £25,460 more expensive or ~20 minutes in a Typhoon!!

As for SFA costs - a Sgt's house is significantly cheaper than that for a Flt Lt. Therefore, it is likely that they are more costly to Defence as they have a bigger subsidy.

Therefore, I would call the myth about SNCO Pilots being massively cheaper than Officer Pilots on a like-for-like entry basis - well and truly busted! :=

LJ :8

[Wander00]

LJ - have you no hobbies..............I'll get my coat...............

[TomJoad]

The Officer Stream is £25,460 more expensive or ~20 minutes in a Typhoon!!

As for SFA costs - a Sgt's house is significantly cheaper than that for a Flt Lt. Therefore, it is likely that they are more costly to Defence as they have a bigger subsidy.

Therefore, I would call the myth about SNCO Pilots being massively cheaper than Officer Pilots on a like-for-like entry basis - well and truly busted! :=

LJ :8[/QUOTE]

Hang on - a few way points missed there to reach a sweeping conclusion:= Anyway 10/10 for effort. Now how about sorting out the grand unified theory, you seam to have time on your hand Leon :D

[Lima Juliet]

Nope, just an hour long episode of Masterchef and some God awful murder mystery to sit through!!! :zzz:

[BEagle]

Wensleydale, they (Lightning II) won't need to as the loadie on board the Voyager will just punch buttons on the Mission Planning System and out will pop the answers and the jets will be on their way home.

Oh, silly me - I forgot that the MPS is not fit for purpose and Voyager isn't cleared to tank, but that doesn't matter because the Voyager can't go anywhere near an operational theatre as it has no defensive aids.



Well it seems that until then, SNCO i/c S1 boxes won't be 'punching buttons' on the Mystery Planning System, I guess. So there'll be a few damp seats in the Voyager as the last remaining navigators find themselves resorting to the nonsense of RAPS....:rolleyes: Which, the MAA might be interested to learn, has never been rigorously tested....:uhoh:

Meanwhile, the mission software (which works just fine) in another tanker is already being updated with future ops in mind - e.g. the use of non-database expeditionary airfields, FARPs and even aircraft carriers as en-route AAR abort options....:ok: The aim being to make the system as intuitive as possible so that it will not require highly experienced personnel to work with it.

[Stitchbitch]

Double post

[NutLoose]

Stichbitch
Bit off topic but, Nutloose, you must be thinking of another Spitfire.. not the RR one that left BBMF, the only time that crashed was on landing at East Midlands..with no fatalities..


Nope one and the same, the pilot killed while training to fly it ( tailwheel config )
was in a Harvard.. It didn't crash at East Mids BTW, it had the gear inadvertently retracted whilst rolling down the runway... It had another one incidentally where it ended up on it's nose departing Woodvale to join the fledgling BBMF in 1957. It should be back soon from repair.
The RR Mk14 did however crash when it failed to pull out of a loop during a display in 92 at Woodford killing the pilot, that is currently partially rebuilt and in storage at East Mids..

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Aviation/Spitfire14arrivalsmall.jpg

..

[Stitchbitch]

Nutloose, that cleared that one up then.:ok:

[1.3VStall]

Nutloose,

As a very young lad I was at RAF Woodvale in 1957 and saw the landing of the last operational flight of an RAF Spitfire (a PRMk19 of the the THUM flight). I have a very grainy 8mm film of the event that my Dad took with his personal cine camera.

I can't believe it's really that long ago!

[Courtney Mil]

Let's get the footage up here. There are a lot of us that would love to see it. :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

LJ ... I'd suggest you trade your wings for an FCA in civvy street ... you clearly have the aptitude ... but you'll need to tone down your sparkling personality to be a true Accountant :E

Best ...

Coff.

[1.3VStall]

CM, being a complete technophobe I haven't the remotest idea how I could get an 8mm film clip on to PPRuNe!

[NutLoose]

You would have to get it scanned to digital, and gawd knows the cost of that, do you know what aircraft is on it, is it PS895 as that did the last operational Spit flight in the RAF, odd one for the RAF to then dispose off... I actually have some of the photos of them from that era on my other PC.

[jayc530]

Flying pay is not the same for Officers and NCO's.

[Just This Once...]

I can assure you that SNCO and officer pilots get exactly the same 'flying pay' at the rates L-J quoted above.

[Lima Juliet]

Jc530

I can confirm that RAF Officer pilots get the same rate of flying pay as Army SNCO/WO pilots. There are no RAF SNCO/WO pilots to compare as they are all WSOps of some form or other - they get a different rate of flying pay as do RAF Officer WSOs on enhanced rate.

LJ :ok:

PS I still maintain there is no need for SNCO\WO pilots in the RAF both financially or career wise. Furthermore, why buck the trend extant within the Royal Navy, USAF, USN, RCAF, RNzAF, RNoAF, French AF, Lufwaffe, ITAF, etc...etc...?

[London Eye]

LJ,

I can't believe that you didn't give us the pension comparison :8

[Lima Juliet]

London

Fill your boots, old chum Armed Forces Pension and Annual Allowance Calculator (AFPAAC) (http://www.mod-pc.co.uk/) :ok:

However, for the FS after 22 years on AFPS05:

£40785 lump sum on retirement (EDP)
£7705 immediate pension (EDP)
£10196 at age 55 (EDP)
£13595 at age 65 (preserved pension)
£40785 lump sum at age 65

For the Flt Lt it is:

£42519 lump sum on retirement (EDP)
£8031 immediate pension (EDP)
£10630 at age 55 (EDP)
£14173 at age 65 (preserved pension)
£42519 lump sum at age 65

Therefore, very small amounts again. Not worth the effort to change all the paperwork, training systems and intake numbers.

LJ :8

PS. This set of figures took only 5 minutes of my sad lonely life!

[London Eye]

LJ.

Why thank you: so the only real saving would be in the reduced amount of mess furniture burned during APCs and at dining-in nights...:}

On a more serious note I wonder when the peace dividend from us 'winning' the Cold War will materialise; 24 years later the world looks more dangerous than ever and the military options for tackling the problems more expensive. Perhaps some party or other might propose in their next draft manifesto that anybody with an unused council house garage must invade North Korea (I was thinking of the Monster Raving Loony Party but Blair said Labour needed some policy alternatives....)

LE

[Lima Juliet]

LE

Quite so, although any officer worth their salt pays for their 'high jinx'! ;)

Anyway, this would be offset by the fact that NCA seem to have a knack of claiming for everything as they know every allowance regulation ever introduced! :ok:

We could make savings on the stocks of Oxford Pattern Shoes, Officer's No 1 hats with the slightly more expensive cap badge and reduction in ceremonial sword holdings... :}

Yes, I was around for "Options For Change" and the so called "Peace Dividend". I was looking forward to a week of TACEVAL every year with the odd MINEVAL, lots of NATO flying around Europe drinking their beer and spending about 3 months cumulative total away a year. That expectation was shattered with "Options For Change" and my boots were getting more and more sandy each year!

'More with less' became the SOP...

LJ

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

As a very young lad I was at RAF Woodvale in 1957 and saw the landing of the last operational flight of an RAF Spitfire (a PRMk19 of the the THUM flight).


Forgive the thread drift (moi?), but one of my books has the last RAF Spitfire operational sortie being in April 1954 from Singapore, and a comment that the type lasted another three years in civil use for met purposes. Anyone able to throw more light on this?

[NutLoose]

Yep they carried on at Woodvale on the THUM flight doing temp measurements etc at different height levels, though the probably didnt count that as operations as it would be second line duties?. THUM was a civilian unit, though i think the crews were Military, they then went to join the BBMF, however on departure PS853 the RR Spit went onto its nose on departure, so was delayed a few days, hence did the last flight prior to joining the fledgling BBMF.
Fascinating read

T.H.U.M Flight? - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=69633)