TV Prog - Confessions of Steward [Archive]

max_cont

26th Apr 2002, 08:57

Watching GM TV today, I was absolutely astounded that one of the so-called revelations is that we flight crews allow cabin staff to sit in the crew seat and fly the aircraft. We all know this is complete rubbish, not to mention illegal irresponsible and unprofessional. The CAA will prosecute any flight-crew member for that stupidity. I think that the alleged cabin crewmember who came up with that story had better be prepared to answer some questions from some very serious people.

This industry needs these kinds of unsubstantiated bar stories like a hole in the head, especially in the present economic climate. I hope that the idiot who is responsible for that story is shown the error of his/her ways. Cabin staff already suffer from the misconception that you are no more that glorified “waiters and waitresses” in the sky. We all know this is due to public ignorance, but I can’t help thinking that this TV program will turn out to be an “own goal”.

ajamieson

26th Apr 2002, 12:05

max_cont I couldn't agree more.

This is just dropped on the Press Association wires, which means it has been circulated to every newsroom in the country. Will make a nice page lead for tomorrow's papers. :rolleyes:

1 AIR Stewards 1259GMT 260402
CABIN CREW ‘HAVE FLOWN PASSENGER JETS’
By Peter Woodman, Air Correspondent, PA News
Cabin crew members have taken over the controls of passenger planes for periods of flights, a TV show disclosed today.
One stewardess flew a Boeing 737, while a steward took over when a pilot went for a break.
In the Boeing 737 incident, air traffic controllers asked the stewardess why the aircraft was not flying in a straight line.
In other incidents, cabin crew deliberately ruined the food of unpleasant passengers and spilt drinks in their laps.
The ITV1 programme, entitled Confessions of an Air Steward, also disclosed instances of:
>blob<Cabin crew joining the “mile-high club”
>blob<Naughty children being locked in the toilets
>blob<Encouraging noisy babies to nod off by putting a drop of gin in their milk bottles
>blob<Waking up troublesome passengers just after they have fallen asleep
>blob<Putting the seat belt signs on to keep rowdy travellers in their places.
ends

BillTheCoach

26th Apr 2002, 14:58

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002190617,00.html

Professionalism goes straight out the window with articles and programmes such as this !

Who are these people ? Are they real ?

They'll never get a job here at Britain's lowest flying airline !

PPRuNe Radar

26th Apr 2002, 15:39

I didn't know a new version of Airplane was being released.

What utter tripe !!

tonyt

26th Apr 2002, 16:48

the more of us that complain to the ITC and challenge the producers to explain just how they arrived at headlines like - 'a quarter of all stewards admit to flying plane' - did any of you receive a questionairre?! The less likely will it be for further programmes of this ilk to make it out the edit suite.

Take note of the producers name - he or she has to fly sometime...

I do hope there will be a 'Confessions of a TV producer' in this series as their lifestyle must be soooo squeeky clean.

femaleflyer

26th Apr 2002, 19:49

I've just watched "Confessions of a Steward", and to say I am amazed is an understatement. I know these programs take a slant on things, but this was unbelievable.
Does what was shown in this program actually happen? Taking controls of the aircraft was one that shocked me the most. All parties involved would lose their jobs if that ever go out, wouldn't they?
Now I am very young, and probably quite naive, but this wasn't an accurate portrayal of life as cabin crew, was it?

Tinstaafl

26th Apr 2002, 21:59

Tabloid TV.

FlapsOne

26th Apr 2002, 22:05

I have just watched this programme and, to say the least, I was amazed.

In all honesty I only watched it for a laugh, but sadly, the great British Public may well go away believing what they saw.

Were these idiots ever really cabin crew? Were they paid to spout this stuff on national television?

There were barely 2 or 3 believable references in the the whole show (the Tampon whistle in the Life Jacket for example) but -

Wiping tea bags around a toilet soaked in chemical cleaner.....that sounds like attempted murder to me!

Deliberately locking a child in the toilet......false imprisonment!

Locking a dead body in the toilet............b0ll0cks! Who was there to confirm death anyway?

Getting the pilots to induce 'turbulence' to the extent that someone falls off the loo..................b0ll0cks!

Making it quite clear that they would not assist pax in an evacuation (or even try!)

If anyone ever attempted any of those stunts on an aircraft an aircraft with me in command ther remaining time in the employ of the company would be measured in seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The next few days with pax who watched this drivel will be somewhat awkward for some I bet.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

timmcat

26th Apr 2002, 22:05

Timmcat kids: "Dad.. who are we flying to Spain this year with?

Timmcat: "Actually, Kids, its an airline called BMIBaby"

Timmcat Kids: "Dad, is that one of those 'low cost airlines'?

Timmcat: Yep!

Timmcat Kids: "Does that mean we dont get a meal on the plane?'

Timmcat: "Yep!"

Timmcat Kids: "Great......"

Taildragger

26th Apr 2002, 23:02

I watched this programme with a sinking heart. A young lady with "8 years flight experience" and other so called Cabin Crew (Notice they were all careful to be interviewed in Civvies) confessed to....
Wiping the tea bags round the lav
Putting Bogies in scones (Yuck)
Asking the Captain to turn up the heat to induce early morning erections in sleeping pax. (They called it Morn Horn)
Flying the aircraft in flight with Pax on board. (Even if this is true, the sheer indiscretion at talking about it on National TV gives the level of maturity)
One girl asking the Captain to induce turbulence. (The way she put it was "Asking the Captain to wiggle the doobry")
I was totally disgusted at this programme. The people concerned have no right to call themselves industry professionals, and do the vast majority of hard working Cabin Crew a huge diservice. The uniforms may not be shown, but the faces are there and there are plenty people out there who must know them. The ex Stewardess on the Channel Four programme was quick enough to dob Flight Crew in.
Could it be pay back time.?? :( :( :mad: :mad:

eeper

26th Apr 2002, 23:58

You may have noticed that the programme said that almost one quarter of the crew that they interviewed had flown the aircraft. Well, I counted about 6 (maybe 8) crew so the number of crew that had confessed to this is a grand total of....

2

Technically correct, but utter tripe.

:rolleyes:

BLACK_BUSH

27th Apr 2002, 00:19

After watching this programme, I posted on our Company (Airline)website to register my disgust at this so called journalism.
I reckon that those individuals interviewed (6 to 8 in number) are all ex "Big Airways" who have either been "let go" ("7 months flight experience") or have taken voluntary redundancy ("12 years Flight experience").
Whatever their "experience" or motivation, I for one do not believe that cabin crew would, or do behave in the manner suggested
As an aircraft Commander of some 12 years, I have never permitted, or seen, a cabin attendant sitting on my flight deck seat, much less taking control of my aeroplane.
This "entertainment" was nothing short of piffle and drug or money induced cr*p which does precious little to induce customer confidence in an industry trying to rise from the terrorist induced mayhem of September 11th.
Journalism of this (sub)standard belongs with the Sunday Sport and headlines of "A Lancaster found on the Moon".
Shame on you ITV, but I'm not surprised at your rating chasing motivation.
To the "cabin crew" involved , I hope your 30 pieces of silver were worth it, and please don't ever try to wangle a sub-load seat on my aeroplane.

FlyingRabbit

27th Apr 2002, 03:32

I guess there are two simple questions in the minds of other slf like me:

1. Can it be verified that these people were really cabin crew?

2. Can their stories (some of them at least) be verified at any level?

Personally I do not believe any of this, but you people know better than I do that general public will believe in almost any cr@p regarding aviation industry.

slj

27th Apr 2002, 08:07

I just wonder if juries in future cases of air rage will adopt a different approach to accepting the evidence of cabin staff.

These apologies for cabin staff have done a great disservice to the industry and their colleagues who still have jobs.

I feel sure they were ex cabin staff or if they are still employed, soon to be ex staff. The programme makers will have anticipated the question.

The problem is that the production and the topic links suggested that such behaviour was wide spread.

We must accept that there are a few bad apples about and how that most viewers would be of the belief that it was not a serious programme but a spoof.

Most of the examples, especially those about "flying" the plane will show how untrue they are (turning back and fore over Russia as an example). sadly, whilst most non pilots (and cabin crew) on this BB would appreciate the bullsh*t factor here, the general member of the public and journalist will not have the knowledge to appreciate what a lot of boll*cks it all was.

BIG DICK

27th Apr 2002, 09:41

What utter C**P that programme was last night, I mean has any crew actually done anything like that to get at passengers? I guess thing must happen but who in their right mind would broadcast it in national TV?

Zerfas

27th Apr 2002, 11:40

I can confirm that one of the cabin crew featured in last nights ***** was crew for us at a low cost airline!

I was totally gobsmacked by this load of urban legends passed on as truth.........

As for the flying the plane bit.....I nearly choked on my corn-flakes with shock! I dont believe for a minute that in this day and age, there are ANY pilots out there stupid enough to allow the crew to fly the aircraft, or any cabin crew that would be stupid enough to do it!

Since 11/09, the public have gradually had their faith in flying restored....Has that now been undone due to these sad losers!

p.s. If the faces of some of the hags featured aren't motivation enough to make us moisturise, then what will be!:D

swashplate

27th Apr 2002, 11:44

That supposed F/A who said whe was a student PPL and flew the a/c, but 'couldn't keep it straight'. So French ATC asked them what they were doing......

Wouldn't such an incident have to be reported by French ATC?

Aircraft manuoevering away from an airway with other a/c nearby....surley this is a possibleairprox incident, no? :confused: :eek:

What about the passengers? Would they not be concerned about this?

IMHO this is made up crap!!!!!

As others have already said, it's interesting how many of them would not say which airline they flew for..... :rolleyes:

Radioman99

27th Apr 2002, 19:26

Hello Folks,

Well, I thought that bringing the show to your attention might raise some interest. Anyway, I am just an ordianary passenger and I would say that on every flight I have been on I have found all of the staff helpful, cheerful (might look a bit hung over) but other than that all very plesant. Even when there is a problem passenger.

These sort of programmes casue problems to all sorts of industries and the main thing is that some idiots actually believe what they see because its on TV.

Lucky it was not SKY that did the show, it would have been worse.

regards
John

Edited for personal advert
Xenia

FridayNightPalma

27th Apr 2002, 20:08

Don't you all remember when the tw@t who made the show posted a message up here, asking for volunteers to appear? If I remember rightly he got a pretty frosty reception, surprisingly. :D

jmccrew

27th Apr 2002, 22:14

It will come as no surprize for you to learn that one of the guys on last nights prog , I used to work with at Caledonian he got FIRED !!!!!! for gross misconduct downroute :rolleyes:

Firestorm

28th Apr 2002, 09:52

If the irresponsible t$%^s who featured in the show are currently working in the industry we can be fairly reassured that they won't be for much longer. If they are trying to get a summer contract, or get back into the industry I hope that they'll get no further than MacDonalds in the terminal. They weren't given much rope, but they successfully hung themselves I feel. And those of us who know the truth still respect the integrity and professionalism of our collegues in the cabin. It's a tough job, and I for one wouldn't want it.

It was funny, and cheap entertainment, but an absolute loads of shoemakers. As said before, the TV equivalent of the Sunday Sport....

swashplate

28th Apr 2002, 15:35

Think this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29938) was the original post asking for CC volunteers..... :rolleyes:

max_cont

28th Apr 2002, 15:54

Many thanks swashplate.

Now I’ve got his E-mail address I’m going to enjoy telling him exactly what I think of him and those so-called professional aircrew revelations.

Anyone care to join me?

AOG007

28th Apr 2002, 16:00

I think that with the number of responses, we can rest assured that all the idiots on this program were cabin crew at some point in their lifes. I for one knew one of them, which is not something I am proud of. Luckily I no longer have to work with them.

It is such a shame that small minded individuals such as these, publically humiliate cabin crew in such a huge way. I dread to think what the Bucket and Spade mob are going to do to the crew this summer everytime they are not happy with something.

Scheduled crew may fair a little better, purely because the passengers travel more frequently, and therefore realise what utter c**p these people have spurted.

Myheart goes out to all you cabin crew who are no going to have to pay, for those idiots comments!

DEADWOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many are still employed???????

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

mainfrog2

28th Apr 2002, 18:49

I've been working since this program was on and not had a single comment about it made. Maybe not as many people as you think watched the s***.

Taildragger

28th Apr 2002, 23:32

Max_Cont.... I sent off a broadside to Mark Carter (For it was he) the journo who wrote this piece. I hope others will do so as well. I was furious at the way all this was presented by a bunch of sad people by a journalist (I use the word advisedly) who was out for sensationalism. Got right out of my pram I did, and spat the dummy bigtime. :mad: :mad: :mad:
I sent him a follow up E-Mail from my own personal E-Mail giving my real name, as I did not want to hide behind the anonymous nom de plume of Taildragger. I'm angry at falling standards of journalism and the lack of will to check a story properly, particularly in Aviation.
But then, the truth doesn't sell newspapers, and only gets in the way of entertainment.

max_cont

29th Apr 2002, 08:14

I’m afraid I’ve also thrown the toys out of the pram big time; it’s the first time I’ve ever done this sort of thing.

I sent Mark Carter e-mail yesterday. I limited myself to telling him how I feel and how the cabin crew colleagues in the company I work for feel.

I also used my real name. I doubt that he’ll be in touch though.

In a strange way I feel a lot better for it. :D

MOR

29th Apr 2002, 13:21

Well, in amongst all the shock and outrage, let me just say that I have seen most of what was described in the programme at one time or another.

Anyone remember the Cabin Crew member that got a stiff fine in the States recently for spitting in the skippers coffee? He suspected she might have, kept the coffee and had it analysed.

Of course, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I have heard many cabin crew admit to "doctoring" drinks and food destined for the flight deck, and have seen meals destined for pax that have been accidentally dropped, then scraped off the floor and handed out as normal. That too is just the tip of the iceberg, and I could tell a thousand other stories in a similar vein.

Many cabin crew are underpaid, undervalued and overworked- it is not surprising at all that some will choose to hit back in some way at whoever has upset them. I know the ones that I have caught doing this stuff were usually just deeply frustrated. Of course, some were nasty people to start with!

The other stuff, the "larking around" stories, are also basically true, even the "flying the aircraft" stories. That happens a whole lot more that most will ever admit, I have witnessed it myself on several occasions. When a lot younger, I was on several occasions asked to vacate my seat to allow some buxom lass, whom the captain wanted to impress, a go at the controls. For some reason, the captains that did this in my company were all ex-military. Some have questioned why course deviations weren't reported, the answer is that most ATC systems are pretty tolerant of small and non-dangerous nav errors, especially a few years back when a lot of use were banging around with no RNAV capability. This applies particularly to the French!

Anyway, be outraged and self-righteous if you like, bang on about irresponsible jounralism if you must, but the fact is that this stuff goes on regularly (exept perhaps flying the aircraft, but then nobody is going to admit that, are they?). As with the C4 documentary, it has merely uncovered some truth that the industry as whole is reluctant to deal with.

max_cont

29th Apr 2002, 14:22

And you did exactly what about this MOR?

I am assuming that because you did not discharge your duty to the state that issued your license, the travelling public, or the company that employed you, these incidents had your tacit approval. I also assume that you can supply the relevant authorities the flight details from your logbook.

I too flew none RNAV equipped aircraft and yes you are correct that some navigational error was tolerated. You had to be grossly off-track to be questioned.

I have also flown with ex military pilots, apart from being great fun during a slip; they’re every bit as professional as their civil counterparts. I’m sure there are good and not so good pilots from all backgrounds.

You seem to believe that this behaviour is rife throughout the industry. I disagree. I have never seen it, or been a party to it. But then in my experience all the crews I have operated with take their duties and responsibilities seriously. Perhaps since you believe this behaviour is normal, it’s endemic to your flights.

The other possibility that occurs to me is that since I AM a professional pilot and currently employed with a large UK charter airline and as I have already stated, I have never seen none qualified persons being allowed to fly the A/C; you may not be what or who you claim to be. To state on a public forum that you have wilfully and knowingly endangered an aircraft and its occupants on several occasions, does not seem something a professional pilot would do.

Human Factors

29th Apr 2002, 15:15

Complain to the ITC (http://www.itc.org.uk/how_can_we_help/complain/prog_complaint_form.asp)

If like me that TV program really annoyed you then make a complaint to the ITC.

GO ON DO IT - Just click on the link above

Hew Jampton

29th Apr 2002, 16:41

I agree with MOR, most of what came up on the programme has happened and probably continues to happen in some parts of the industry, although unapproved persons being at the controls is nowhere as prevalent as it used to be, especially post the Aeroflot crash.

max_cont and others fall straight into MOR's forecast of "outraged and self-righteous". It might not happen on their flights (good) but that doesn't alter the fact that it has on other flights.

As to why people are reluctant to report it, I'm sure that in max_cont's doubtless utopian employment, 'whistle-blowers' are welcomed with open arms and accorded all the protection that recent (UK/Europe) legislation requires, and more. In most other places (including UK/Europe) reporters would find themselves sent to Coventry/ irredeemably failing the next sim check/blacklisted throughout their nation's industry. Yes, all of those happen too.

MOR is right, it happens (although I would qualify that by saying some of it not as much as it used to), and the industry is reluctant to deal with it. Remember all the "outraged and self-righteous" comment after the 'bottle to throttle' TV programme, yet nobody (except perhaps max_cont) could put hand on heart and say it never happened. That programme did a lot to reduce the incidence of 'bottle to throttle' problems, so perhaps in a heavy-handed way, it did the cause of flight safety a favour.

(Ducks down behind parapet)

flapsforty

29th Apr 2002, 17:28

I have not seen any of these things happen in 20 years as an FA.
And I'm not blind nor am I unwilling to see.

MOR

29th Apr 2002, 18:15

As you say, Hew, he makes my point beautifully.

It may not happen on your flights, with your particular airline, max_cont , but happen it does. It is also largely driven by the attitude of the captain- even in your antiseptic airline, I'm sure there are some individualists who have their own views on these things.

What did I do? Went straight from the flight concerned and marched into the Chief Pilots office. The response was something like "bloody trouble maker, how dare you try to undermine your captain, now p*ss off before I fire you".

I should have left it alone, but being young and idealistic I phoned our Flight Ops Inspector. His view was that "as long as nobody is getting hurt, I can't see the problem. It's the captains right to grant such favours if he wants".

That seemed a somewhat inadequate response, so I called the CAA direct. They declined to get involved in a company disciplinary matter.

Of course by now the CP knew I had been on to the Flight Ops Inspector (apparently they had a good laugh about it), my cards were duly marked and not long after I (gladly) left the company. BTW in this company all the senior management (and the captain concerned) were ex-RAF- this does not mean that ex-military are any more culpable than anybody else- simply that they too transgress. That says a lot if you care to read between the lines.

I don't know what sort of blinkered world you live in, max_cont , but if you think this stuff doesn't happen your attitude is typical of the general industry reluctance to deal with these issues.

I agree, of course, that non-licenced personnel flying aircraft is rare- especially in recent years- but cabin crew shenanigans are most definitely not rare. Some airlines are better than others, and some crews better than others, but it does happen. Generally, the more the cabin crew respect the captain, the less it happens.

I did a quick poll of our cabin crew at work today, and five out of eight happily admitted to some misbehaviour or other, often with other employers. They made the point that there is virtually no way of proving anything, so they feel relatively safe in having their fun.

Bottom line- treat your cabin crew right, look after them and they will reciprocate, and that includes doing stuff that might bring the captain into "disrepute"

max_cont

29th Apr 2002, 18:58

Hew J; I must indeed be blessed with a utopian life. But then even as a new F/O I knew my duty and never hesitated to speak up. I personally knew several F/O’s who spoke to the chief pilot when they were unhappy or unsure about something that occurred on a flight. Guess what, they are all captains now; they were never sent to Coventry, neither did they fail an OPC etc. Perhaps if these things have happened, or do happen in the company you work for, its time to move on.

I have never personally seen what has been claimed, but then I suppose that my colleagues on the flight deck knew that behaviour like that would never be tolerated, even if I was the junior rank. Few escapades EVER stay secret for long in the airline world. On the turnaround you usually get the low-down about who is doing what to whom and how often. Things like letting un-qualified people fly the A/C would become an open secret. So fast, you would barely have time to set the parking brake. I am not so stupid as to believe that it has never happened in the past, just that it nowhere near as common as the TV program claimed. I am certain however that I have never seen or heard about it even through the grapevine.

You appear very certain that these incidents are commonplace; perhaps you would be kind enough to provide evidence. If you can’t, it remains an unsubstantiated allegation.

Mor, perhaps you could also take this opportunity to provide evidence of what you claim. I’m sure there must be a journalist out there who would love to ask the CAA or ops inspector a few awkward questions. They would of course need proof. Over to you.

N2616

29th Apr 2002, 20:23

Good post MOR !!
Most flight deck crew are well aware of the alleged foul antics of the cabin crew with regard to their food but turn a blind eye to it.
What needs to happen is for one or more of the culprits to be charged with endangering the safety of an aircraft, a hefty prison sentence would hopefully send out the right message.

Hew Jampton

29th Apr 2002, 21:30

max_cont, I can vouch for:

1. A mixed salad of many small pieces of ham, shredded lettuce etc, being rifled through by hand to extract the ham before sending it up as a kosher meal: SEEN.

2. Tea and coffee pots being taken into the lavatory compartment to be emptied, an action that would result in a land restaurant being closed down immediately and prosecuted (and don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft): SEEN - everday occurrence

3. Cabin crew carrying out 2. above and touching the lavatory door handle, the lavatory lid, the lavatory seat and the flush handle, and then not washing their hands before going back to the galley to handle food: SEEN - everyday occurrence

4. As 3. above, except using the spout of the tea/coffee pot to raise the lid and seat to avoid touching them by hand: RELIABLE FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of one person's SOP

5. Personal issue ice tongs being kept in cabin bags and therefore touching cabin shoes: SEEN - everyday occurrence

6. Food all over galley floor, because of badly packed trolley and unsecured trolley door, being picked up by hand and put back into dishes on trays: SEEN

7. Temperature of food being checked by putting fingers in it: SEEN

8. Smoking in galleys (again illegal in a land restaurant): SEEN

9. 'Swigging' from drink bottles that are then used for service: SEEN

No, I don't have dates, times, photographs etc, but the above come to mind after nearly forty years in civil aviation so far. Not all one airline, but nearly so. Have I said anything - no; I have blown about three comparatively small whistles in my time (different employers) and the follow ups were much more akin to MOR's experiences than max_cont's. Coventry - yes, dismissal - yes, threats of violence - yes.

The subject programme did sensationalize the issues; rightly or wrongly it probably has to in order to get airtime. Would you sit and watch somebody on TV reading out a list of ASRs? Yes, it was an awful programme, but if it achieves the same change to the ethos of some individuals and operators as the bottle to throttle programme did, it might do some good. Blindly saying none of it ever happens is wrong.

password

30th Apr 2002, 00:19

Hew Jampton - At last a post that is not hiding behind the "It doesn't/couldn't possibly happen"

Programme was indeed the the most uninteresting bit of tele on for ages (and that takes some doing these days)

But we most all face up to it and admit it has and does happen, yes it's wrong to do, possibly wrong to air on national TV, I wish it was fiction but unfortunately it's fact.
And before you ask, no I can't and won't substantiate it.

If my memory serves me correct the guy who "did a few bends over Russia" you may remember or not, did an article for the News of the World a few years ago regarding the c/c antics down route, with photos to prove it....I suppose it pays the rent !

Lets hope it is now all history.............:cool:

Cart_tart

30th Apr 2002, 03:59

"2. Tea and coffee pots being taken into the lavatory compartment to be emptied, an action that would result in a land restaurant being closed down immediately and prosecuted (and don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft): SEEN - everday occurrence "

Hew Jampton....
have you ever been in a Dash 8 galley? There are no sinks and there really is no alternative than pouring it down the loo. Disgusting I know. However, what else is there to do when the pots MUST be emptied because there is no where to stow them if full? I personally hate the practice and when I can I leave them full until we get to the next port and empty them onto the tarmac.
So before you jump and say "don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft " perhaps you should think of the a/c that don't have galleys with sinks and there really is NO other alternative.

max_cont

30th Apr 2002, 08:31

Hew J; I notice that all the incidents you post are really to do with hygiene. All seem to be down to CC making the best of a bad situation and not down to malevolence.

A land-based restaurant has the luxury of space. Hygiene is a relative term when you discuss aircraft galleys. In a land based establishment you would be closed down for having a lavatory opening into the kitchen. It’s not even allowed in a private dwelling in the UK, if I remember correctly. This is a normal occurrence on an A/C. You would be horrified to learn what can and does sometimes happen in the kitchens of hotels and restaurants across the land. You might even be shocked about what can happen to the food before it is loaded onto the aircraft. Most people’s private kitchens would be condemned if health and safety inspectors inspected them. A/C do not come under the jurisdiction of these bodies for the very good reason that they would be automatically condemned and NO aircraft would ever fly.

I know that coffee pots are emptied down the loo when the galley sink gets blocked. What is the CC supposed to do on a 9-hour sector to BGI? Blocked sinks are a fact of life. Accidents do happen and yes I’m sure instead of running out of meals, the CC sometimes repair the damage and present the meal. Again this due to accidents and is not down to malevolence.

Hew J; with almost 40 years in the business I’m guessing you must be BA and at least a purser. If you see these things being done by your junior crew then it’s up to you to correct them. My other half never allows unhygienic practices or skivers among the crew. Anyone who tries it on learns very fast the error of his or her ways. Oh yes, before becoming CC my other half used to work as a personnel manager in the hotel industry so a direct comparison can be made. I will admit to getting fed up when she castigates me for infringing some hygiene rule at home when I put the shopping in the fridge. :confused:

I like everyone else have heard all the stories that were repeated on TV thousands of times before. Usually in the bar after a few drinks. The incidents are claimed to be true by the narrator, but since I’ve heard the same basic line told dozens of times by different people since I joined I know they are just shooting a line. It’s still very funny though.

What has really got my dander up is this accusation that we let CC fly the aircraft. The program stated 25% of those interviewed admitted to having flown the A/C. We know that that makes it two. The general public does not; the inference is that 25% of CC has flown the A/C. Piffle.

Just for the record I have not said that it could not or would not happen, I said that I have never seen it…a subtle, but important difference.

MOR/password, do try to change the FROM field in your profile. It does rather give the game away.

Malteser

30th Apr 2002, 11:35

Some of the hygiene things? Yep - it happens, but then the aircraft environment doesn't lend itself greatly to hygiene anyway - you pays your money and takes your choice. None of what i've seen is malevolent, but then again nor is ending up witih twigs in your beans when you go camping.

But for the other stuff - maybe it's happened once somewhere in the dim past, after all, the number of flights each day, each country ... vast.

But to suggest that this is prevalent is ridiculous, and to add my penny - i've never seen it, nor heard of it going on (and one can get quite frank opinions downroute after a couple of beers) - even if a skipper (or FO for that matter) has @rsed someone off big time. Apart from Lankey. But that's another rumour....

So MOR, I'd call your bluff on this one - I reckon you're (a) making it up for effect, (b) not who you say you are <delete as appropriate>.

Back before 11/9, when the doors were open, we'd be in an out of the galleys all the time - and I'd have thought that someone somewhere would have made a few big issues if this sort of thing was rife.

It's not - although not saying it's never happened - but it's not.

Hew Jampton

30th Apr 2002, 12:18

BA purser? Wrong airline and wrong job. Anyway, I haven't said everything happened with one operator.

As to the "What else are we supposed to do with teapots?" brigade, the immediate answer is probably to do nothing. The solution is for aircraft designers, certification authorities and aircraft buyers to insist on galleys where the most basic food hygiene can be applied. But wait, that's not possible, it will affect profits. But wait again, the seat pitch debate is showing signs of pax being willing to pay a bit more for more room, so perhaps they might pay a bit more for hygiene.

Some more that come to mind:

10. Cabin crew asking the captain to misuse the seatbelt sign to prevent pax from using the loo and walking round to avoid DVT, for the benefit of the cabin crew: SEEN frequently.

11. Cabin crew blocking off serviceable lavatories to keep things in: SEEN frequently. I haven't seen dead bodies being put in the lavatory compartment, but I'm fairly sure that at least one operator would do this if it were to occur. Having said that, it's probably quite a sensible thing to do with a body, especially if there's a possibility of infection, so I disagree with the programme presenting this as a 'shock-horror' item.

12. An aircraft cleaner using a dirty rag to wipe all parts of the lavatory and then using the same rag to wipe the galley worktops: SEEN.

As to non-qualified persons (cabin crew, pax, ground engineers, flight engineers etc) flying the aircraft, I have seen or heard no evidence of this for many (10+) years, but in the past I have had enough independent reliable first hand accounts to convince me that it has gone on. In the absence of anything more recent, perhaps this particular item should be put down to history.

Yes, some of it's down to making the best of a bad job, and the bad job should be rectified by better design and training, but serving food that's been on the floor, putting fingers in food, using the pot spout to lift the seat, not washing hands?

max_cont

30th Apr 2002, 15:10

Hew J; I’m beginning to get suspicious! You say that you’re not BA…. Ok. You also say “wrong job” You claim to have been in this business for nearly 40 years. Since I believe that all the airlines that have been around for that number of years recruit CC no younger than 20 or so, it would make you about 60…but ok, you say you’re not CC.

Now since you claim to have witnessed all these terrible things, you would have to spend your time flying the line in the cabin, but since you’re not CC how did you manage that? Flt crews spend 99% of the flight on the flight deck, so even if you were the Flt engineer (pretty much an extinct breed these days) you would not spend that much time in the cabin. How have you managed to personally witness so much wrongdoing? I doubt that the CC would continue with their nefarious activities if the skipper or F/O were watching.

The seat belt issue is open to interpretation. I personally leave the seatbelt sign on (as opposed to auto) until we have cleaned up after departure and are climbing away. This helps CC in the event of a problem that requires an expeditious return landing. The use of the seat belt sign is at the captain’s discretion and is NOT restricted to just turbulence. If the CC request the seat belt sign on and they have a valid reason, it goes on. That becomes a lawful instruction…. period.

The issue of DVT is very new and needs proper investigation so claiming that passengers have been trying to avoid DVT in the dim and distant past is rubbish.

CC use of lavatories for stowage, well that could be reasonable if you knew the full story, i.e. a light load and lots of serviceable loo’s or a partial failure that required it to be restricted to crew use only. That particular one has happened to me on several occasions. You say that you have seen it a lot, ok how many were left and what was the minimum required for the cabin?

A/C cleaners are no different than any other cleaner; they all do things that they shouldn’t. You can hardly blame CC for that.

Are you seriously suggesting that we should turn the A/C around mid Atlantic for a blocked sink? The passengers and company might have one or two things to say about that. Your suggestion that the CC do nothing is un-workable. (Another indication that you’re not really familiar with line ops)

Edit for typo (discretion)

Human Factor

30th Apr 2002, 15:23

In my experience, pretty much every cabin crew member I have worked with has been highly professional. Sure, there's always a bit of banter, but the standards are usually very high.

At least we've found eight highly unprofessional ones and now highly unemployable ones!! Keep your eyes peeled for them.

As an aside:

Welcome to Human Factors , who is absolutely no relation to me.

Hew Jampton

30th Apr 2002, 16:39

I don't intend to do anything more that might exacerbate max_cont's wish to turn this into personal antagonism, or that might reveal my identity, but I have never been cabin crew, but have first hand knowledge and experience with several operators, past and present.

You, max_cont, presumably never position as a passenger where you might see these things (short haul crew in some operators do a lot of positioning), and never remain on the aircraft for short-haul turnrounds (up to five a day) when you might see these things. One of my points is that some C/C, but by no means all, think that they are doing nothing wrong in the actions that I have seen, so have no qualms about doing them in front of witnesses. I listed the things I have seen or have reliable information on - heaven knows what those sort of people get up to when nobody's looking! If they think thay are doing nothing wrong, or that the demands of the schedule etc outweigh the demands of basic hygiene and duty of care, then fundamental training in food hygiene etc is called for.

The CAA, as usual excels itself in burying its head in the sand over a matter in its 'too difficult' tray, saying its not their responsibility, although as MOR states, they are by no means unaware. The Environmental Health Officers have no mandate on galley hygiene and C/C practices (so far, but vide the HSE's increasing involvement in aircraft matters, it's only a matter of time).

Not "rubbish" about pax wanting to walk around; it's been basic medical advice to pax for many years, way before DVT became a populist issue (although DVT has been known about for years, people sleeping in deckchairs in air-raid shelters, being one documented cause). I note that my point about pax wanting to use the loo but the FSB sign being on for C/C convenience reasons is not addressed; I note the Freudian slip in it being at the captain's "digression" (discretion?), he's absolutely correct, to use the FSB for C/C convenience, not safety reasons, is a digression from what should be acceptable practice.

Are you really saying you find the practice of picking up food off the galley floor and putting it back in dishes etc acceptable? I know that it happens in land restaurants, but does that make it acceptable?

Using perfectly serviceable lavs for stowage, like crew bags that should be in the hold - what if the legal minimum are still available? Is that the customer service target to aim for, the minimum?

Did I say I blamed the C/C for the cleaners? Of course, if I can spot it while in the cabin area during the turnround, why can't they? When it is reported to airline management, not as a complaint about the C/C, but about the cleaning contractor, should they file it in the bin, as happened?

Suggesting the C/C do nothing meant that they do nothing other than what they are forced to do now on that particular subject. As I said, the long term solution is better design and more money spent in this area.

I'm plenty familiar with line ops, thank you.

max_cont

30th Apr 2002, 17:32

Thank you for highlighting the error HJ. Error now corrected.

Thank you also for clarifying your expertise in line ops.
You may think you know line ops but until you fly as crew, you are not privy to the complete story. You are entitled to believe what ever you wish, but observation does not give you the full facts.

I do not want to turn this into a personal issue and I will not.

I have legal authority to tell you to sit down any time I deem it necessary. You as a passenger are required by law to comply. You may not agree with it but it is still the law.

The number of loo’s available for passenger use is not for you to decide. If for the reason’s already discussed we as operating crew put a loo out of service, that’s it I’m afraid. You will have to use another one. You can rest assured that we will and do divert, if the remaining facilities become inadequate.

Hew Jampton

30th Apr 2002, 18:14

You may think you know line ops but until you fly as crew, you are not privy to the complete story
Without me posting facsimiles of my licences (ATPL etc), logbooks (five so far), CV and photo of me in uniform, I'm not going to do anything to correct your incorrect assumptions, but now you are just being patronizing, and more than a little authoritarian.

I have legal authority to tell you to sit down any time I deem it necessary
Actually, you don't. Look up the ANO; doesn't it mention something about commands having to be lawful or reasonable (I can't be bothered to look up which)? In any event, it remains my not inexpert view as an airline pilot and a passenger (with considerable experience of both) that using the FSB sign for the convenience of C/C when it inconveniences the paying pax, is unreasonable and an abuse of authority.

The number of loo’s (sic) available for passenger use is not for you to decide
I quite agree with you, it should be for the crew and their employers to decide, putting safety first, then pax needs and comfort, then their own. Stowage for crew bags, captain's golf clubs (that's been done too) etc are not in my view reasonable grounds to block off a loo.

Methinks you doth protest too much on this TV programme. As has been pointed out to you, it might not happen on your flights (I doubt that Captain Bligh experienced it either, possibly for similar reasons), but is has most certainly happened on other flights, perhaps to a lesser degree, or not so recently, as the programme portrayed, but no amount of "outraged and self-righteous" denial will make it go away.

max_cont

30th Apr 2002, 20:43

Hew J, thank you for finally nailing your colours to the mast.

Allow me to help.
The ANO states; Article 67
Every person in an aircraft registered in the UK shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation. (Can only be committed on a UK registered aircraft.)

I am quite happy with my style of leadership and CRM. In the present climate of throwing the flight crew to the wolves if something goes wrong, I like to have a valid reason for bending or breaking a regulation or company SOP. Knowing who makes the final decision when push comes to shove does not make a person autocratic, authoritarian or Captain Bligh.

The fact that I, like a lot of our professional colleagues take the opposite view to that of the tabloid TV trash does not in my opinion equate to outraged self-righteous denial.

Since ITV have made these allegations about the industry, it would seem only fair that they furnish the evidence to support their claims If they provide the evidence (especially about CC flying the A/C) then I would welcome any enquiry into the allegations.

I have re-read all your points and I still disagree. Since it is highly unlikely that you and I will agree on this subject and I don’t want to keep butting heads with you, I shall refrain from further pointless argument.

MOR

30th Apr 2002, 23:10

Well, max_cont , I can't decide whether you are naive or arrogant... tell you what, let's split the difference and go for inexperienced.

I'd hazard a guess that you have probably only flown for one or two airlines in your (very short) career. It is therefore entirely possible that you haven't seen the things of which we speak, but what I and a few others are trying to explain to you is that we have seen this stuff first hand and, despite your rose-coloured view of the industry, it is far more prevalent than you think.

The pompous way you have responded to us indicates to me that your "style of leadership and CRM" is, to say the least, imperfect and I would imagine that some of the stuff mentioned on the programme happens on your flights- you just don't know about it, and are unlikely to be told by any of the participants for what should be obvious reasons.

To take a few of your recent points:

Allow me to help.
The ANO states; Article 67
Every person in an aircraft registered in the UK shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft

The point is that the lawful command must be reasonable. This is a common law point.

The fact that I, like a lot of our professional colleagues take the opposite view to that of the tabloid TV trash does not in my opinion equate to outraged self-righteous denial.

... except when you start sending self-righteous emails to the perpetrator of the tabloid TV trash in question, and publicising the fact here- particularly when your grasp of the facts seems to be so fatally flawed.

If they provide the evidence (especially about CC flying the A/C) then I would welcome any enquiry into the allegations.

Please try not to be so incredibly naive. That will never happen for obvious reasons, in the same way that C4 didn't get into trouble over their drinking expose. I wonder who has the most to lose by pursuing that inquiry?

MOR/password, do try to change the FROM field in your profile. It does rather give the game away.

Um, you are being naive again... it doesn't. trust me on this. ;)

I'm not sure how we got sidetracked onto hygiene, that isn't the point at all. What is the point is that some CC will hit back at a difficult pax or colleague in the only way they can- it is simply a very human reaction and is a result of the same conditions that drive restaurant staff to do similar things- namely having to do an often-degrading task for minimal reward, and working very long hours in difficult conditions into the bargain- with little training or supervision in many cases. It is an area that the industry, for all its pre-occupation with CRM and Human Factors, has no intention of addressing because, to quote a senior airline HR figure- "we have girlies queuing up to be CC, they are a disposable commodity" (apologies to the boys). I fundamentally disagree with that viewpoint, before anybody gets the wrong idea!!

There are still plenty of captains out there who will let the CC fly- or do flybys, buzz their houses (Britannia), etc. I've never done it, I would be livid if I saw it- but I know it happens. It is an open secret in our industry. Nobody is ever going to name names, for what should be obvious reasons. The CAA know it goes on, but what can they do without evidence? It's a bit like the C4 drinking expose- nobody would admit that either, until confronted with the evidence- although we all knew it went on (well, except maybe for you).

Anyway, the discussion has probably run its course, I had better quit before I get into trouble!

Oh, and for malteser - please feel free to think whatever you like!!

Virginia Plane

1st May 2002, 07:55

max_cont - I'm afraid to say that there really is a lot more going on in commercial aviation than you have experienced so far (no I'm not saying you are inexperienced or a baggage loader, etc, just that what you have seen isn't the whole story).

I sat watching the program with my wife (she had 8 years cabin crew experience and I had 10) and did not find anything that we hadn't witnessed. Yes, it stinks but lets not be blinkered here. I flew with the guy who was sacked for gross misconduct and I have to say he really was one of the most disagreable stewards I have ever met and think that his recruitment by 2 major UK airlines shows a real failing by those companies. How on earth a UK long haul airline recruited an overtly boistrous male who had just been fired from another south east UK based airline for gross misconduct without taking up references shows real ineptitude.

This thread has started with a lot of naivity but is thankfully starting to become real due to the input of Hew Jampton et al.

ViP

Sick Squid

1st May 2002, 10:03

Starting to verge towards the personal for a while there, folks. Luckily it seems to have self-moderated its way back on something close to track.

Remember, play the ball, not the player.

Continue with the debate by all means, but no more personal attacks, we've seen enough of them already and you've all made your points to each other, thank you. If you must continue the extra-curricular slagging-off, then do it by e-mail, otherwise Xenia is going to get medieval, I can feel it....

AMEX

1st May 2002, 12:32

Very limited CC experience, less than a year but I certainly remember at least one occasion when the purser/CSD did something quite along the lines mentioned above.
It was a personal revenge so there we go, max_cont those things happened and I am pretty sure they still do.
Why wouldn't they anyway, Humans still go to war...

Forgot to say, I didn't see the programme and feel I haven't missed anything at all.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/dino1b.gif

Xenia

1st May 2002, 13:22

Good guess Squid :D

Pontious

2nd May 2002, 10:51

Did anybody else have the feeling that they were all,if not mostly, former BA crew?

energiser

2nd May 2002, 11:21

There are still plenty of captains out there who will let the CC fly- or do flybys, buzz their houses (Britannia), etc. I've never done it, I would be livid if I saw it- but I know it happens. It is an open secret in our industry. Nobody is ever going to name names, for what should be obvious reasons. The CAA know it goes on, but what can they do without evidence?

Ummm...DFDR data perhaps? I would have said that was sufficient evidence. Lets face it, xxx does a fly-by, someone reports it, by the time xxx lands the CAA are waiting and pull the DFDR. Yes, the crew could erase the CVR, but the DFDR (or even the QAR) cannot be erased by the crew.

If it's good enough for accident investigation I'm sure it's good enough for a prosecution!

As an aside, I really do not think that there would be a snowballs chance in hell of anybody getting away with that sort of high-jinks today. The chance of it remaining an 'open secret' is unlikely. Someone on the ground or in the air will always be willing to report xxx, and then xxx will lose their job/licence, and quite rightly too. If you want to ****** about like that, then spend some of your hard earned cash and hire an aerobatic aircraft.

We don't get paid to entertain, we get paid to get people safely from A to B.

CandyBender

2nd May 2002, 12:15

Pontious....various mentions have been made on PPrune, airlinecrew.net & Bassa bulletin boards that the participants in this piece of quality TV include former employees of EasyJet, Virgin & Cityflyer......I know one of the guys (who also helped the News Of The World with their infamous article a year or so back) is def a former VS cabin crew member. So please don't tar all of us at BA with the same brush.

Raw Data

2nd May 2002, 13:50

energiser

For flybys, there is usually no doubt who the perpetrator was- of course DFDR info has been used as evidence in any case. For Cabin Crew flying, the only way you could prove anything is either to get somebody to admit it (highly unlikely as it would almost certainly be an instant P45 for all involved), or for someone to say something silly over the radio. Any CVR info will be long-gone by the time the aircraft lands.

For DFDR data to be any use, you would have to prove who was manipulating the controls- virtually impossible.

There have been plenty of recent examples of flybys/buzzing houses etc, so that obviously still happens. I happen to know that Cabin Crew flying the plane also happens, but is kept much quieter than in times past- other than that, I agree with MOR/Hew Jampton.

max_cont

2nd May 2002, 14:15

I think it wise to remember some of the additional accusations made by those individuals on that TV program.

More than one person claimed that in an emergency CC would abandon ship and let the passengers fend for themselves.

In 1985 a BA B737 had an emergency at MAN. I believe 155 people died in that tragedy. It later became the subject of an incident review in the company I work for and it was reported that the CC who were killed by the flashover, died at their stations, while evacuating passengers. This demonstrated professionalism of the highest order not to mention bravery that any soldier would be proud of. I thought that the TV program was an insult to them at the very least. In a similar vain Flt deck crews were said to be green with fear and rendered almost helpless. I suppose in a similar way that the crew of the Sioux City disaster was.

I am sure all of us were embarrassed at the revelation by the channel 4 program about flight deck drinking. We may not have liked it, but they took the trouble to provide evidence. ITV weren’t interested in that. They just provided a public platform for any ex CC to say what they liked without providing proof. At least one person was dismissed for gross misconduct. It makes you wonder if these accusations have an element of revenge about them?

Raw Data

2nd May 2002, 15:27

The main "accusation" was that they, as individuals, would look after number one- not surprising, then, that people of their level of professionalism would assume that others would do the same.

I tend to agree that what we saw on the programme were the dregs of the Cabin Crew world, almost certainly selected for the programme because of their willingness to spill the most lurid possible beans. Reminds me a little of the Damilola Taylor witness who was far more interested in running up large expense accounts, and procuring large sums of money for herself, than simply telling the truth...

Zerfas

2nd May 2002, 18:10

The guy with the goatee was definately ex EZY crew, but for some reason he's not given the same name....At ezy Mat Blindell on prog Mat something else! Maybe hes (rightfully) embarrased!:cool:

Cathar

2nd May 2002, 19:42

Sorry to be a bore but I should point out that article 67 of the Air Navigation Order actually says:

"Every person in an aircraft shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation." see http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm

It is not restricted to UK registered aircraft and will apply to any aircraft in UK airspace.

password

3rd May 2002, 03:45

Max-Cont I reckon it's impossible to gauge how anyone would react in an emergency situ until you're put in one..I'm sure we'd all say we'd do our bit but adrenalin has a funny way of making even the best react.

But for all those people that have been in the situ and reacted "The right way" hats off...well done.

MOR/password, do try to change the FROM field in your profile. It does rather give the game away.
:rolleyes:
Why ? What Game ? I'm not here playing Hide and Seek

mainfrog2

5th May 2002, 19:29

Couple of points which are going back a bit in the thread but I've been away.

You can't fish ham out of a salad and pass it off as a kosher meal.

Kosher meals have to be sealed during manufacture with a Beth Din seal which indicates it's authenticity. A person requesting a kosher meal is the only person allowed to break the seal. If it's been tampered with they quite rightly will refuse it.

Also if you ever used the galley on an ATR you would see that you can't even get a coffee pot over the sink cos there's not enought room. But it has a big hand basin in the loo.

Virginia Plane

6th May 2002, 11:21

You can pass it off as kosher if they don't know about it. It ain't right but it happens. You know it ain't kosher any more but they don't. If the kosher meal contains a hot entree you get the guy/gal to break the seal to get the entree out so you can cook it in the oven so back it all goes to the galley seal broken. This is the point at which the 'kosher-ness' gets violated. Technically a kosher entree is supposed to be cooked in an oven with no 'unclean' entrees in it. Yeah right! So you're supposed to take out all the other dozens of meals to cook one meal and have everyone else complain because there meals aren't available for another half an hour? You cook the entree with everyone else and tell the passenger that of course their meal was cooked on its own.
There are limits as to what can be achieved catering for mixed cultures of up to 500 people in a fixed time frame in an aluminium tube with few crew. A quick return from NY to Heathrow may give 5 hours of working time for 500 people. Well that means 36 seconds per passenger and of course everyone wants special treatment.
Don't get me wrong, I am also apalled by what has gone on/still goes on but some people seem a little naive.

ViP

Hew Jampton

6th May 2002, 11:35

You can't fish ham out of a salad and pass it off as a kosher meal. Agreed, but nevertheless it was attempted and the meal served to the passenger. I wasn't commenting on the kosher aspect, but on the bare hands rifling through the food.

Reference ATR galleys etc, read my earlier on galley design. Anyway, on the several aircraft types (not including the ATR) on which I have seen pots being taken into the lavatory compartment, many times, it wasn't the washbasin that was used.

All this food hygiene was only raised because it was mentioned several times on 'that' programme, among other bad practices, including flying the aircraft, and some people went overboard on adamantly declaring the whole programme to be a web of fabrication. Other people, while not wanting for sensible reasons to get embroiled in the flying issue, observed that they had seen many or all of the 'non-flying' practices, so the programme wasn't that much of a fabrication.

Anybody see the next programme in the series, 'Confessions of an Estate Agent'? If there's a Professional Estate Agents Rumour Network (PEARuNe?), is it now heavy on "outraged and self-righteous" indignation on estate agents using the vendor's bed to bonk prospective purchasers during the showing round, or wearing the vendor's clothes and even having the trousers shortened to fit?